Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Topic: Just how could Persia lose to Greece? Posted: 14-Aug-2004 at 19:13 |
The story of Alexander seems to be something out of a western hollywood
movie and i still find it hard to believe how a Macedonian-Greek boy
(in his 20s?) could not only challenge but also conquer, defeat0 and control the might of the Persian
Empire!
Can someone present the main reasons why the Persians where unable to
crush the Greeks, despite having conquered the rest of the known world?
Why Alexander was able to defeat them so decievely despite being at a
obvious disadvantage, in terms of troops and resources etc ?
please list them if you can
i would like to hear the Persian side, surely such a catastrophe in
nations (or peoples) history must be remembered in every persian house
- so how do they tell the story to their children etc? I really want to
know the Persian side.
Edited by Khan
|
|
fastspawn
Earl
Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Location: Singapore
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 269
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 14-Aug-2004 at 20:33 |
i watched time commanders, the battle of guagemela, and their
explanation was that although sorely outnunmbered, the greeks were
well-trained and battle hardened.
The persians on the hand were made up of many merceneries and conscipt soldiers.
The battle they staged had the conscripts in front (they were slingers)
and the front-line fell back as soon as the horses came crashing down.
This had a domino effect whereby the mercs left the field, and the
undisciplined persian elites were drawn away from battle because
of a bait--The enemy camp.
How true this is, i don't know.
|
|
Cyrus Shahmiri
Administrator
King of Kings
Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Aug-2004 at 13:26 |
Persian empire declined when Artaxerxes III became king, I think he was the cruelest Persian king, it is said that he set fire to a large city in modern Lebanon and killed at least 40,000 of its citizens, anyway he died and his son Oarses succeeded the throne but he was killed soon, Artaxerxes had killed his own sons, brothers and cousins, so there was no other successor, finally with help of an Egyptian eunuch (Bagoas ?) Darius III who was probably one of decendents of Darius II ?? became the Persian king of kings, Darius III had faced many rivals for the throne, in this condition Alexander attacked Persia, Darius never could unite the Persians against him and at the end he was killed by one of his rivals.
|
|
|
TJK
Consul
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 367
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Aug-2004 at 14:22 |
There were many reasons..
Starting from the end of persian-greek war in the beginnig of V
centaury BC, Greeks have recognized their miltary system is superior to
the Persian..this was confirmed during the civil wars in Persia -
especially during the Cyrus the Younger expedition. Greek military
supriopriority was still not enough to conquer the whole Persian Empire
when the greeks was not united..It was also well known in Persopolis..
thus the principle of Persian rulers politics was to not admit that the
single Greek state will have the dominat position..this politics works
well in V and in first half of IV cenatury. This was however ruined
when the two brillant successive figures have occured in near Greece
area. Macedonian king Philip II have introduced the revolutionary
changes to the art of warfare and due to its impementation have
subordinated the whole Greece. Philip's son - Alexander have developed
his fahter's ideas as well in wafare as in ambitions.
Thus the main reasons were:
- the genius of greek/macedonians leaders
- the supriority of greek/macedonian warfare
- decentalization of Persian Empire
|
|
Dari
Shogun
Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 205
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Aug-2004 at 15:11 |
Cyrus the Great is more then Alexander's equal....at Persia's military height. Alexander's conquest of the Persian Empire does not prove that Greek/Macedonian military is superior to Persian military. As Cyrus the Great easily smashed the Ionian hopilites of various city-states and provinces.
|
Dari is a pimp master
|
|
TJK
Consul
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 367
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Aug-2004 at 16:18 |
Cyrus the Great is more then Alexander's equal....at Persia's military height |
I must say my opinion is different...
Alexander's conquest of the Persian Empire does not prove that
Greek/Macedonian military is superior to Persian military. |
Really ? So what is reason that the much less numerous forces have conquered such bifg empire ?
. As Cyrus the Great easily smashed the Ionian hopilites of various city-states and provinces. |
1. We discuss here about two different periods.. and and you seem to do
not regonise the develompent of greek warfare in the V and especially
IV centaury BC..
2. So what is the reason of defeat of Achemaenid Empire by Macedonians ?
Edited by TJK
|
|
Dari
Shogun
Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 205
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Aug-2004 at 16:37 |
Easily its internal corruption, decadence, in-fighting and the lack of unity to actually confront the Greeks and Macedonians when on Persian and Iranian soil.
|
Dari is a pimp master
|
|
TJK
Consul
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 367
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Aug-2004 at 16:50 |
Easily its internal corruption, decadence, in-fighting and the lack of
unity to actually confront the Greeks and Macedonians when on Persian
and Iranian soil. |
1. decandence in fighting have been showed much before - during
invasion of Greece in V centaury..just even the best persian units lkie
immortals could not stand against greek hoplite without good helmet,
shield and sword...
2. Internal corruption was on the level which was always typicall for the Empire since the post Xerxes period..
3. lack of unity - I would say the Empire in this age have showed
really big unity and the loyality to the Dariush..after really great
defeat at Issos the major of the provinces have still issued
armies to support the persian king..
|
|
Tonifranz
Janissary
Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Aug-2004 at 16:54 |
And besides, in 490-479 BC, the Persians were still at the height of their power, during the Persian invasion of Greece. And they still lost to a bunch of puny squabbling city states.
Edited by Tonifranz
|
|
Yiannis
Sultan
Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2329
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 16-Aug-2004 at 06:33 |
The weakness of the Persian empire military system was evident ever since Xanophon and his 10000 hoplites, without any cavalry or archers, were able to first defeat a whole wind of the Persian army at the battle of Cunaxa with not even one fatality and then escape from the heart of the Persian empire defeating all armies that were send against them. read the whole Anabasis here: http://www.earth-history.com/Greece/greece-xenophon-anabasis -preface.htm
Learning from this Agesilaus of Sparta (http://www.e-classics.com/AGESILAUS.html) was able to attack Persia and conquer all of Asia Minor coast (and plunder it as well) before he was obliged to return to Greece to face fellow-Greeks in battle.
Later on when the Greeks were united under Philip and later his son Alexander, they were able to go in for the kill. Persia was ripe for the picking.
|
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
|
|
YusakuJon3
Shogun
Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 223
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 20:52 |
I think Cyrus, Yjannis and TJK very much hit on all the reasons for
Persian decline. The house of Achaemenes was so torn by
internecine conflict and court intrigues that it was unable to
withstand the momentous assault by an ambitious young Macedonian king
and his modest army of Greek hoplites, Macedonian infantry and
Thessalian cavalry. While Darius III did indeed rally his
subjects for two successive battles against the Hellenes (as Greeks
called themselves then), each defeat -- plus the loss of vital
provinces like the Levant coast and Egypt -- was a blw that weakened
his authority and left him vulnerable to the final treason of his
generals. Fleeing the oncoming charge by Alexander (we had a
heavily-armed youth on horseback racing towards a lightly-armed king in
a chariot) didn't help things any, but it gave the Persian empire a
short respite as Alexander regrouped his forces and delayed plans to
penetrate the heartland.
|
"There you go again!"
-- President Ronald W. Reagan (directed towards reporters at a White House press conference, mid-1980s)
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 03:53 |
Wait a second Dari is Absolutly right. TJK don't be an idiot. Firstly you say Persian were defeated in invasion of greece. First these junks are told by Greek historians they would never say they lost a single battle. Secondly modern research is proving that Alexander was killed by Ariobarzan and before conquering Persia a guy from Median decent got his merceneries and overthrew they persians usin persia's own army by promises. They say Alexander(the median guy, he was homosexual by the way although he had a wife for prospeity and no children)went through Lut desert in two days. A researcher from britain said he could not do it in two weeks with a car. Moreover they found that Persepolis was never burnt at all............... Persians defeated Greeks in their invasion and Burnt Acropolis instead in time of Xerxes.
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 03:59 |
PERSIA NEVER LOST TO GREECE OR THE GAY ALEXANDER AND BEATED THE HELL OUT OF THEM. MOREOVER AFTER GREEK OR ARAB OR MONGOLIAN INVASIONS PERSIA RISED AGAIN WHILE GREECE WAS FADED IN HISTORY UNTIL THE LAST CENTURY BY ROMANS.
|
|
Yiannis
Sultan
Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2329
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 06:44 |
WOW!!! That was impressing!
Talking about history revisionism...
Btw, do you have something against gay people?
|
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
|
|
Rebelsoul
Knight
Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 73
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 07:02 |
jamshidi_f
You are cracking me up, man! You are great! Keep them coming, yo!
|
|
Cornellia
Baron
Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 474
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 09:00 |
Originally posted by jamshidi_f
PERSIA NEVER LOST TO GREECE OR THE GAY ALEXANDER AND BEATED THE HELL OUT OF THEM. MOREOVER AFTER GREEK OR ARAB OR MONGOLIAN INVASIONS PERSIA RISED AGAIN WHILE GREECE WAS FADED IN HISTORY UNTIL THE LAST CENTURY BY ROMANS. |
I don't know where to begin. This theory is definitely controversial and appears to fly in the face of historical and archaeological records.
I guess I should start by asking you for your sources. You mentioned in another thread that Persepolis wasn't burned and about a 'pseudo-Alexander'. What are your sources for this?
|
Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 14:26 |
Although these are modern reseaches, there is one book called "Eskandar-e-Dorooghin" which is mostly found in Middle East and is very new. It is written by Dr.AbdoAzim Rezai.
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 14:27 |
Dr.Rezai mentions that he had some partners from Britain in examining samples from Persepolis.
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 14:28 |
I have not completely read the book.However, I have seen it and read the first 6 chapters.
|
|
TJK
Consul
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 367
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 14:37 |
Great start-post jamshidi_f !
I think our Historical Amusement subforum will appreciate your posts..
BTW Are you Lor ?
|
|