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Maju View Drop Down
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Dracology
    Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 09:34
Yes, that's commercial rubbish. 

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Posts: 416 		  Quote Socrates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 08:35

Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by Ikki


Another question, why is the dragon evil in the West, and sacred in the East?


Wow! I missed this most important question.

According to some modern Anti-patriarchal interpretations, the reason for the Dragon being demonized in the west is that it embodied the ancient "Neolithic" religion of the Mother Godess. As in Basque mythology, probably in pre-IE Europe (and, up to a point, is some parts of early IE Europe), the Dragon was the consort of the Godess (Mother Earth?). The myths of a hero killing the Dragon, starting (as far as we can trace) by Apollo in Delfos, represent the victory of the new Patriarchal order over the older "Matristic" (or Matrifocal) order. Medieval versions of these legends paint the Dragon as kidnapping a maid (the Godess) but, according to Casilda Rodrigaez (see http://www.casildarodriganez.org/, in Spanish), the actual true original meaning is that the Dragon was actually protecting her, as he was her natural consort (the God) in the context of an egalitarian Matrifocal religion of fertility.

Yet, even in Medieval times, we find some authors that give a more favorable role to the Dragon, particularly in the cycle of Arthur.

Due to this (violent) social and cultural transformation, the Dragon-God became the Dragon-Devil, in a simmilar manner as many Pagan mythological characters were demonized under Christianity and the other Abrahmanic religions.

The Godess was kidnapped then by the Apolinean Patriarchal "hero" and became gradually: lesser godess, godess consort, human saint/consort and even disappeared at all from religion/mythology.

But don't worry, the Dragon is back.

Then u didn't like the 13th warrior -they r fighting against cannibals who worship the Mother Godess.That statue they showed in the film looks exactly like the one from Lepenski Vir culture in Serbia...

Btw-that film was  a load of commercial rubbish... 
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Posts: 416 		  Quote Socrates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 08:30

Originally posted by Sharrukin

from the Avestan dragon-snake Azi-Dahaka.  Apparently, those originally Iranian Serbs were converted to Zoroastrianism at some point in their ancient history.  Avestan sources indeed indicate that nomadic tribes received the preaching of Zoroaster.  Among these were Sairimas, whom in the west were known as Sarmatians.  We know that the Serboi of the classical geographers were in Sarmatian territory.  It then just takes little imagination to see how some Serbian words are related to Iranian ones.

I'm not sure Sarmatians were under the influence of Zoroastrianism-I think they were more influenced by ''pagan'' Indo-Iranian cults.
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Posts: 1460 		  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2006 at 22:22
     In Armenian, dragon is Vishab (pronounced vee-shahb).
Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2006 at 22:07
from the Avestan dragon-snake Azi-Dahaka.  Apparently, those originally Iranian Serbs were converted to Zoroastrianism at some point in their ancient history.  Avestan sources indeed indicate that nomadic tribes received the preaching of Zoroaster.  Among these were Sairimas, whom in the west were known as Sarmatians.  We know that the Serboi of the classical geographers were in Sarmatian territory.  It then just takes little imagination to see how some Serbian words are related to Iranian ones.
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Posts: 416 		  Quote Socrates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2006 at 04:15

Originally posted by Zagros

Interesting similarity between the Persian Ejdeha and Serbian Azdeja (with j pronounced as y).

Actually, it's Azhdaya.I didn't know it was an iranian word...interesting.
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Posts: 1835 		  Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 23:19
Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by Ikki


Another question, why is the dragon evil in the West, and sacred in the East?

But don't worry, the Dragon is back.


Like always... great info Maju.... and yes you can say that last line again.
The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
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Maju View Drop Down
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 09:36
Originally posted by Ikki


Another question, why is the dragon evil in the West, and sacred in the East?


Wow! I missed this most important question.

According to some modern Anti-patriarchal interpretations, the reason for the Dragon being demonized in the west is that it embodied the ancient "Neolithic" religion of the Mother Godess. As in Basque mythology, probably in pre-IE Europe (and, up to a point, is some parts of early IE Europe), the Dragon was the consort of the Godess (Mother Earth?). The myths of a hero killing the Dragon, starting (as far as we can trace) by Apollo in Delfos, represent the victory of the new Patriarchal order over the older "Matristic" (or Matrifocal) order. Medieval versions of these legends paint the Dragon as kidnapping a maid (the Godess) but, according to Casilda Rodrigaez (see http://www.casildarodriganez.org/, in Spanish), the actual true original meaning is that the Dragon was actually protecting her, as he was her natural consort (the God) in the context of an egalitarian Matrifocal religion of fertility.

Yet, even in Medieval times, we find some authors that give a more favorable role to the Dragon, particularly in the cycle of Arthur.

Due to this (violent) social and cultural transformation, the Dragon-God became the Dragon-Devil, in a simmilar manner as many Pagan mythological characters were demonized under Christianity and the other Abrahmanic religions.

The Godess was kidnapped then by the Apolinean Patriarchal "hero" and became gradually: lesser godess, godess consort, human saint/consort and even disappeared at all from religion/mythology.

But don't worry, the Dragon is back.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Posts: 204 		  Quote Kuu-ukko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 05:53
In Finnish a dragon is called lohikrme. Although lohi also means salmon in Finnish, the name is not salmon-snake, but the lohi is most likely from the Old Norse word for fire, logi. 
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Posts: 104 		  Quote arsenka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 02:27

Originally posted by Ikki

Dragn in Spanish.

Another question, why is the dragon evil in the West, and sacred in the East?

And why the strong central power so appraised in the East is not so popular in the West?
arsenka
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Spartakus View Drop Down
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 14:02
Thanks .
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2005 at 12:37
Well, in the bulgarian folklore it's a kind of "classic" dragon. Sometimes it has three heads and till two of them are sleeping, the other one is always awake.
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Maju View Drop Down
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2005 at 12:06
Originally posted by Stefan

In bulgarian we also have dracon and zmei, but the word of bulgarian origin is lamia.


What is a lamia in Bulgarian? In Basque it's sort of a nymph (but with bird feet and golden comb), while in Greek it's more of a terrorific female criature.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2005 at 11:16
In bulgarian we also have dracon and zmei, but the word of bulgarian origin is lamia.
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Maju View Drop Down
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Dec-2005 at 11:05
Originally posted by Spartakus

Country of the Basques-Euskera:erensuge



That's correct, though it's most commonly written herensuge, with the "h" being mute in the south and slightly aspirated in the north.

But herensuge (strangely meaning the third or last serpent) only appears in a late myth about Christianization.

For the rest the concept of dragon or serpent is exclussively associated to the male half of the Basque Divinity, who often appears as such. His name Sugar or Sugaar (emphasis in the last syllabe) means either male serpent (suge+ar) or flame of fire (su+gar). Another name for him is Maju but it has no clear ethymology.

Unlike her companion, the female Divinity, Mari, never appears as serpent or dragon, but as woman in red, woman of fire, tree-woman, fireball, black he-goat, and several red animals (ram, horse, cow).

In the 19th century, romantic Xiberutar (Souletin) writer Agustin Xaho, inened several neo-myths of Basque content, one of them being Leherensuge (the first and last serpent, or the first dragon).

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Posts: 197 		  Quote Fizzil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Dec-2005 at 10:05

Tananeen is plural of Tineen. just fyi

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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Dec-2005 at 04:42
Some have heard or read about the battle of Apollo and Python for the possession of the Oracle of Delphi, in which Apollo was victorious.  In the original story, Apollo had to deal with a nameless female serpent, the drakaina. 
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Ellinas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2005 at 13:52

The mentions of dragons in Greek mythology that come in my mind firstly are the dragon who was guarding the Esperides tree and the one who was guarding the Golden fleece.

Spartakus it would be interesting if you post other mentions of dragons you remember.

 



Edited by Ellinas
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2005 at 05:54
Interesting similarity between the Persian Ejdeha and Serbian Azdeja (with j pronounced as y).
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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2005 at 01:58

I have a theory concerning the existence of  the concept of the dragon in the mythology of so many countries. I think that dinosaur fossils have been found all over the world, and that people, not having a good idea of how old the world actually is, have extrapolated that these creatures must not have been dead long and by extension might still be out there.

http://www.itmonline.org/arts/dragonbone.htm
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