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Topic: Muslim Father demands removal of crucifix Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 08:58 |
And a headline will appear in world newspapers
"Swede lynched in New Delhi"
One of the most important symbols of Hinduism
The symbol of Jainism
Outside India
Falun Gong
(wonder why the PRC hasn't hit on this association yet,easiets way to condemn them in the eyes of westerners).
Buddhist Swatsikas in Japan
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Reginmund
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Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 07:31 |
Originally posted by Sparten
^
Never been to India have you? Or any Buddhist country. |
No, but if I do I will ask them to take down every swastika I see.
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Aelfgifu
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Posted: 28-Aug-2008 at 17:30 |
Originally posted by Władysław Warnencz
Muslims however imediately start crying about islamophobia and that this is nothing important...Yes,it is not - i didn't write it is,THAT IS WHY IT IS IN INTELLECTUAL DISCUSSION AND NOT CURRENT AFFAIRS (God,how many times should i repeat this... ). |
You can repeat it as often as you like. It is just that no-one but you seems to believe it, and that number is likely to swindle to sub-zero with every repetition.
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Maharbbal
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Posted: 28-Aug-2008 at 11:58 |
The matter was interesting in a French perspective because Muslim parents/patients have been quite violent in the recent years. Several doctors and nurses are attacked every years because this or that, in general, they refuse that their daughter/wife be examined by a male doctor. So much so that some hospital had to create safe rooms to take care of these patients and toughen up the security.
What often shocks people is that people making such a rant are often of French origns and newly converted. But it is also true that this is a very small minority and that most Muslims accept to be treated by whoever is around.
So that article is rather one more drop pourred by a rightist newspaper in the jar of anti-Muslim sentiment.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 28-Aug-2008 at 11:07 |
Originally posted by Władysław Warnencz
Originally posted by gcle2003
Who was crying about islamophobia?
The situation would be no different if it were a Christian wanting an Islamic symbol removed, or for that matter an anti-Nazi demanding a swastika be removed, or a capitalist lackey demanding a hammer-and-sickle be removed.
In all those cases it would be essentially trivial. Symbols don't affect anything: attributing importance to them is basically childish, like believing in magic.
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Then why was it so important to him the crucifix to be removed?
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Because he disagrees with me. D'oh!
Why was he risking his daughter health for such a "childish" thing?
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Because he didn't think it was childish. D'oh!
It seems the nurses were more adult thant... |
Yes, in my view they were. They would also have been childish had they refuses to remove it.
The guy was ill-mannered at best: the nurses were civilised about it.
What would be completely wrong would be to somehow spin that into thinking that Christians are more adult than Muslims.
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Posted: 28-Aug-2008 at 07:45 |
^
Never been to India have you? Or any Buddhist country.
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Reginmund
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Posted: 28-Aug-2008 at 06:55 |
Originally posted by gcle2003
The situation would be no different if it were a Christian wanting an Islamic symbol removed, or for that matter an anti-Nazi demanding a swastika be removed |
I didn't know hospitals put swastikas in the wards.
Edited by Reginmund - 28-Aug-2008 at 06:56
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Władysław Warnencz
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Posted: 27-Aug-2008 at 23:01 |
Originally posted by Slayertplsko
Originally posted by Al Jassas
France has no state religion, it is secular Wladyslaw just like most if not all EU countries. So his demands are perfectly legal.
Al-Jassas |
Well, I don't consider Poland to be free of state religion. It isn't written in the constitution afaik, but still, from what I've heard...Poland kinda reminds me that Muslim guy.
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It is funny how some people think such sarcasm might offend people like me.I.In fact Poland also hasn't got a state religion and that's a shame.All christian nations should live in christian,not multi-religious,multi-cultural or multi-ethnical countries.As muslims have muslim laws in their countries so should christians have laws based on the chrisitan religion.I would be very happy if you were right,unfortunately you are not.
BTW,you can't compare a man with a country,at least not in that case...
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Slayertplsko
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Posted: 27-Aug-2008 at 21:57 |
Originally posted by Al Jassas
France has no state religion, it is secular Wladyslaw just like most if not all EU countries. So his demands are perfectly legal. Al-Jassas |
Well, I don't consider Poland to be free of state religion. It isn't written in the constitution afaik, but still, from what I've heard...Poland kinda reminds me that Muslim guy.
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Władysław Warnencz
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Posted: 27-Aug-2008 at 21:34 |
Originally posted by gcle2003
Who was crying about islamophobia?
The situation would be no different if it were a Christian wanting an Islamic symbol removed, or for that matter an anti-Nazi demanding a swastika be removed, or a capitalist lackey demanding a hammer-and-sickle be removed.
In all those cases it would be essentially trivial. Symbols don't affect anything: attributing importance to them is basically childish, like believing in magic.
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Then why was it so important to him the crucifix to be removed?Why was he risking his daughter health for such a "childish" thing?It seems the nurses were more adult thant...
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gcle2003
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Posted: 27-Aug-2008 at 19:11 |
Who was crying about islamophobia?
The situation would be no different if it were a Christian wanting an Islamic symbol removed, or for that matter an anti-Nazi demanding a swastika be removed, or a capitalist lackey demanding a hammer-and-sickle be removed.
In all those cases it would be essentially trivial. Symbols don't affect anything: attributing importance to them is basically childish, like believing in magic.
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Władysław Warnencz
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Posted: 27-Aug-2008 at 18:53 |
Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter
Władysław Warnencz , anyone has the right to demand what he want, the nurse could just refuse his demand, but she was very wise and prevented unnecessary argument. I wonder what are you trying to prove here, you made a hurly-burly for a vain subject.
arrogance, you make me laugh , there is no arrogance at all, maybe a fanatic act form impolite person. Do you think such behavior is normal? yes I do. finally, I agree with Reginmund, if I was in the man's place, I would say nothing to evade reflecting a bad image. I can surf the net and find hundreds case like this(not identical) regardless of religion or certain group of people. but you choose a Muslim man for a purpose, but you choose the wrong one,a scatter brained man. |
I didn't choose someone with a certain purpose.This is just a case fit for subforum called "intellectual discussions" and can be discussed from many points of view.If you want change the word muslim with christian and crucifix with Flag of Shahada.It doesn't matter because what religions we are talking about,but wether it is right to demand such thing (nomather what is the religion).
Muslims however imediately start crying about islamophobia and that this is nothing important...Yes,it is not - i didn't write it is,THAT IS WHY IT IS IN INTELLECTUAL DISCUSSION AND NOT CURRENT AFFAIRS (God,how many times should i repeat this... ).
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Ahmed The Fighter
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Posted: 27-Aug-2008 at 13:25 |
Władysław Warnencz , anyone has the right to demand what he want, the nurse could just refuse his demand, but she was very wise and prevented unnecessary argument.
I wonder what are you trying to prove here, you made a hurly-burly for a vain subject.
arrogance, you make me laugh , there is no arrogance at all, maybe a fanatic act form impolite person.
Do you think such behavior is normal? yes I do.
finally, I agree with Reginmund, if I was in the man's place, I would say nothing to evade
reflecting a bad image. I can surf the net and find hundreds case like this(not identical) regardless of religion or certain group of people. but you choose a Muslim man for a purpose, but you choose the wrong one,a scatter brained man.
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Reginmund
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Posted: 27-Aug-2008 at 10:10 |
If I try real hard to see things from the irrational POV of a deeply religious person, I can understand why he wanted to have the cross removed. Still, given today's islamophobia I would probably have thought twice about doing so if I was in his place, and avoided all this negative attention.
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eaglecap
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Posted: 17-Aug-2008 at 16:30 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
This is a trivial issue that doesn't deserve international press.
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I agree and besides afther she has left the hospital they could put the Crucifix back into the room. Now, if they demanded all signs of Christianity removed, unlikely, then that would be a different song.
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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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Władysław Warnencz
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Posted: 17-Aug-2008 at 15:39 |
Originally posted by King John
The father had every right to demand such a symbol be taken down. He had no business carrying on the way he did but every right to ask for the crucifix to be taken down. I was born in a Christian hospital with no Crosses on the walls.
This is an incredibly trivial matter and does not warrant international discussion. I think this speaks more about certain people's "islamophobia" and xenophobia than anything else. If the father was Jewish would this have caught your attention? What if the person was Hindu or Buddhist and acted the same way, still the same reaction?
Let's also not forget that France is not a "Christian country" it is a secular republic. Being a secular republic it has no state religion so making the claim that this family lives in Christian country and should therefore accept Christianity is ridiculous. |
Firstly,by writing they have to accept christianity i didn't mean they should convert,but find a way to live with christianity around them - for example crucifix on the walls.
And secondly,who cares where you were born and if there was a crucifix on the wall?It is no arguement.The hospital was christian so it is normal that there is a crucifix on the wall.If there wasn't it wouldn't be any different than any other hospital.When it is officialy CHRISTIAN hospital there should be AT LEAST a crucifix on the wall - if you don't like it do not go there.
And you are all right this issue is not worth international attention and that's why it is not in "Current affairs" , but here - in intelectual discussions,where even the least important issues can be discussed from different points of view.
Edited by Władysław Warnencz - 17-Aug-2008 at 15:40
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arch.buff
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Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 16:13 |
Originally posted by gcle2003
I don't see how you can demand a crucifix. Of course you should be allowed to have a crucifix, but I don't see why the hospital should provide you with one. (Even if it's a Roman Catholic hospital.)
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I dont think a hospital has the responsibility to provide me with a crucifix either; I also dont believe a Catholic clinic has the responsibility to remove a crucifix which is already present. Is that a more clear parallel?
Originally posted by gcle2003
Also the question everybody keeps ignoring except me is who chose the hospital? The way I read the story, the daughter probably did, and the father was probably already angry about that.
Certainly it wasn't the father that was getting the medical treatment. |
For the details regarding my position refer to my first posting. The girls health and the care given to her take precedence over all trivial issues, no matter how ridiculous they may be, such as the removal of a crucifix.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 11:28 |
I don't see how you can demand a crucifix. Of course you should be allowed to have a crucifix, but I don't see why the hospital should provide you with one. (Even if it's a Roman Catholic hospital.)
Also the question everybody keeps ignoring except me is who chose the hospital? The way I read the story, the daughter probably did, and the father was probably already angry about that.
Certainly it wasn't the father that was getting the medical treatment.
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King John
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Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 23:46 |
If you wanted that Crucifix in your room sure you can demand it. I don't see why that would be an issue. So I would say yes there can be a parallel made if you wanted a cross or any other religious symbol.
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arch.buff
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Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 21:54 |
Originally posted by King John
The father had every right to demand such a symbol be taken down. He had no business carrying on the way he did but every right to ask for the crucifix to be taken down. I was born in a Christian hospital with no Crosses on the walls.
This is an incredibly trivial matter and does not warrant international discussion. I think this speaks more about certain people's "islamophobia" and xenophobia than anything else. If the father was Jewish would this have caught your attention? What if the person was Hindu or Buddhist and acted the same way, still the same reaction?
Let's also not forget that France is not a "Christian country" it is a secular republic. Being a secular republic it has no state religion so making the claim that this family lives in Christian country and should therefore accept Christianity is ridiculous. |
I completely agree, the notion that one should convert to the religion of the majority in any given country is ridiculous. However, I also find it ridiculous for one to seek medical attention from a Catholic clinic while at the same time ordering the removal a crucifix.
I wonder your thoughts, can there be a parallel made if I myself were to enter a hospital and demand that a crucifix be added to my room?
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