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Muslim Father demands removal of crucifix

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Scholarly Pursuits
Forum Name: Philosophy and Theology
Forum Discription: Topics relating to philosophy
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25099
Printed Date: 29-Mar-2024 at 10:09
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Topic: Muslim Father demands removal of crucifix
Posted By: Władysław Warnencz
Subject: Muslim Father demands removal of crucifix
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 10:58
Muslim Father demands removal of crucifix from French Catholic hospital room
 
 
Translated from http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2008/06/24/01011-20080624FILWWW00626-polemique-autour-d-un-crucifix-dans-une-clinique.php - the short account carried in the French-language newspaper Le Figaro:

After vehement demands, a muslim obtained the removal of a crucifix hanging from the wall of the room of a Catholic clinic in Bourgoin-Jallieu (Isère) where his daughter was being treated…

Monday afternoon, at the http://www.clinique-bourgoin.com/pages/maternite_naissance.asp - Saint-Vincent de Paul clinic, the father of a young girl, who had just underwent scheduled preventative surgery, demanded that personnel unfasten a crucifix from his daughter’s room.
"For almost 15 minutes, the father, in the presence of his wife, verbally ranted, demanding that the crucifix be taken down", reported a witness. The establishment’s personnel eventually gave in to this demand.

The management of the clinic expressed their astonishment. The director of the clinic, Marie-Thérèse Besson, declared that this demand was "surprising [given that it’s] from a family that freely chose our establishment."

"When people choose to be treated in our establishment… they know that they are in a Catholic maternity hospital", she added.
 
 
http://covenantzone.blogspot.com/2008/06/muslim-father-demands-removal-of.html - source

http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2008/06/24/01011-20080624FILWWW00626-polemique-autour-d-un-crucifix-dans-une-clinique.php - French source
__________________
 
Your oppinion?



Replies:
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 11:06
This is a trivial issue that doesn't deserve international press.

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Posted By: Władysław Warnencz
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 11:17
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

This is a trivial issue that doesn't deserve international press.
 
It is rather an intellectual matter which deserves disscusion at least.Did he have the right to demand this or the nurses shouldn't have removed the crucifix?


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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 11:22
Dude its just some grouchy old man, what do I care?

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 11:46
The nurses chose to remove it. They could have told him to go to hell.


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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 12:30

I assume the daughter chose the clinic and the father objected. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.

I go with the thought that it's pretty trivial. The father shouldn't have objected, but when he did the nurses were right taking it down.



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 13:16
The guy is an a**h***. I would be more worried about my child than a crucifix.

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Posted By: Kevin
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 13:30
If he freely choose the hospital then who is he to make demands. 


Posted By: arch.buff
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 15:46
Hmm..bold demands. This should not be taken as representative of Muslims universal; that may sound common-sense, but one would be surprised at what some can deduce from the media. That being said I do not feel the nuns should have removed the crucifix just because of one man's complaints. Now, if the father threatened to leave then I would have considered the removal; only because the girls health takes precedence. The nuns can not be charged with giving up the faith as such, not even symbolically. They have erred on the side of peace, which, in this case I believe, can not be condemned. Just my 2 cents..

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Be a servant to all, that is a quality of a King.


Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 16:11
In Saudi Arabia, we by default remove Qurans and islamic books, if doesn't want them, without asking, so what is the problem to make this an international news? By god if a Buddhist or a Hindu did the same nobody will take care.
 
Al-Jassas


Posted By: Władysław Warnencz
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 16:36
Originally posted by Al Jassas

In Saudi Arabia, we by default remove Qurans and islamic books, if doesn't want them, without asking, so what is the problem to make this an international news? By god if a Buddhist or a Hindu did the same nobody will take care.
 
Al-Jassas
 
Going to a christian hospital and demanding the crucifix to be removed is like going to an Embasy and demanding the flag to be removed.And there is a difference between books and symbols.Books "work" when you read them,while symbols when symply stand/hang.If i'm in a room and there is a Quran on the table i wouldn't read it and thus care,but an islamic flag on the wall would get on my nerves.


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 16:46
What would be an "Islamic flag"?

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Posted By: Władysław Warnencz
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 16:50
Originally posted by Sparten

What would be an "Islamic flag"?
The flag of any islamic country in the world.

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Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 17:04
Originally posted by Al Jassas

In Saudi Arabia, we by default remove Qurans and islamic books, if doesn't want them, without asking, so what is the problem to make this an international news?
And would any Bismallah's be taken down off the walls as well?  Though this is hardly international news, the individual did make a choice to seek treatment at a private religous hospital.  If one cannot stand the sight of Bismallah's or crucifixes in a religous hospital, one should go to another hospital.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 17:08
Originally posted by Władysław Warnencz

Originally posted by Sparten

What would be an "Islamic flag"?
The flag of any islamic country in the world.


So you defeat your own argument about a crucifix in a hospital being the same as a flag in an embassy? Considering that you would see this flag in lets say the Pakistani embassy; you would get pissed, but yet at the same time you would be fine with it. Not much consistency in these two posts.




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Posted By: Władysław Warnencz
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 17:12
Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by Władysław Warnencz

Originally posted by Sparten

What would be an "Islamic flag"?
The flag of any islamic country in the world.


So you defeat your own argument about a crucifix in a hospital being the same as a flag in an embassy? Considering that you would see this flag in lets say the Pakistani embassy; you would get pissed, but yet at the same time you would be fine with it. Not much consistency in these two posts.


 
I would get pissed (as the muslim got with the crucifix) but i wouldn't demand it to be removed.I would bite my tongue,do my business there fast and get out.That's what the muslim should've done - bite his tongue and care for the health of his daughter,or go to another hospital.Demanding a flag in an embasy or crucifix in a christian church be removed is arrogant.


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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 19:02
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by Al Jassas

In Saudi Arabia, we by default remove Qurans and islamic books, if doesn't want them, without asking, so what is the problem to make this an international news?
And would any Bismallah's be taken down off the walls as well?  Though this is hardly international news, the individual did make a choice to seek treatment at a private religous hospital. 
That still seems to me to be unlikely, though it would be nice to know the facts. If the daughter (maybe discussing with the mother) made the choice it puts a rather different complexion on the father's attitude. He may have been as angry with the daughter as anything else, especially if he only found out it was a Christian facility when he arrived.
 
So while his behaviour may have been antediluvian, it wasn't necessarily hypocritical.


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Posted By: Władysław Warnencz
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 19:06
Originally posted by gcle2003

That still seems to me to be unlikely, though it would be nice to know the facts. If the daughter (maybe discussing with the mother) made the choice it puts a rather different complexion on the father's attitude. He may have been as angry with the daughter as anything else, especially if he only found out it was a Christian facility when he arrived.
 
So while his behaviour may have been antediluvian, it wasn't necessarily hypocritical.
 
Nomather what his feelings were he had no right to demand that.After all he has chosen to live in a christian country and thus should accept christianity.If he doesn't than he should go to the muslim world.


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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 19:22
We all have the right to demand anything. We don't necessarily have the right to get it. I've chosen to live in a Roman Catholic country - are you telling me I should become a Roman Catholic?

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Posted By: Władysław Warnencz
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 19:27
Originally posted by gcle2003

We all have the right to demand anything. We don't necessarily have the right to get it.
 
That's right and there wouldn't be a problem if the man asked them to remove it and when they said no he accepted the decision.He however started arguing and didn't accept the initial decision of the nurses.
 
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

are you telling me I should become a Roman Catholic?
 
Sincerely? LOL
 


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Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 12:57
Originally posted by Władysław Warnencz

Nomather what his feelings were he had no right to demand that.After all he has chosen to live in a christian country and thus should accept christianity.If he doesn't than he should go to the muslim world.
 
Lat time I checked, France was a constitutional republic with freedom of religion. Something changed since yesterday?
 
I find it a bit stupid of the man to make such a fuss over a crucifix, but I agree with the nuns. It is not worth the trouble of being fundamental about it. Perhaps in future the dad should discuss the possibilities of removing the cross beforehand without him shouting at them. I am sure the nuns treat lots of atheists as well, so I doubt they will be bothered by the fact their patients do not believe as they do.


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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.


Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 16:45
France has no state religion, it is secular Wladyslaw just like most if not all EU countries. So his demands are perfectly legal.
 
Al-Jassas


Posted By: Władysław Warnencz
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 17:00
Originally posted by Al Jassas

France has no state religion, it is secular Wladyslaw just like most if not all EU countries. So his demands are perfectly legal.
 
Al-Jassas
Did i write they are illegal?Did i write he should go to jail?I only wrote it is arrogant to go to a catholic hospital and demand removal of crucifix.And not just a polite demand,but an ugly arguement with the nurses and shouting.Do you think such behaviour is normal?


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Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 19:11
Normal? Probably not. Worthy of intenational attention? Defenately not.

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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.


Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 20:16
The father had every right to demand such a symbol be taken down. He had no business carrying on the way he did but every right to ask for the crucifix to be taken down. I was born in a Christian hospital with no Crosses on the walls.

This is an incredibly trivial matter and does not warrant international discussion. I think this speaks more about certain people's "islamophobia" and xenophobia than anything else. If the father was Jewish would this have caught your attention? What if the person was Hindu or Buddhist and acted the same way, still the same reaction?

Let's also not forget that France is not a "Christian country" it is a secular republic. Being a secular republic it has no state religion so making the claim that this family lives in Christian country and should therefore accept Christianity is ridiculous.


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 20:46
It would also mean, inter alia, that everyone in England would have to belong to the Church of England. No Romans, no Orthodox, no Nonconformists, no Puritans...but we tried that. Didn't work.

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Posted By: arch.buff
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 21:54
Originally posted by King John

The father had every right to demand such a symbol be taken down. He had no business carrying on the way he did but every right to ask for the crucifix to be taken down. I was born in a Christian hospital with no Crosses on the walls.

This is an incredibly trivial matter and does not warrant international discussion. I think this speaks more about certain people's "islamophobia" and xenophobia than anything else. If the father was Jewish would this have caught your attention? What if the person was Hindu or Buddhist and acted the same way, still the same reaction?

Let's also not forget that France is not a "Christian country" it is a secular republic. Being a secular republic it has no state religion so making the claim that this family lives in Christian country and should therefore accept Christianity is ridiculous.
 
I completely agree, the notion that one should convert to the religion of the majority in any given country is ridiculous. However, I also find it ridiculous for one to seek medical attention from a Catholic clinic while at the same time ordering the removal a crucifix.
 
I wonder your thoughts, can there be a parallel made if I myself were to enter a hospital and demand that a crucifix be added to my room?
 


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Be a servant to all, that is a quality of a King.


Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 23:46
If you wanted that Crucifix in your room sure you can demand it. I don't see why that would be an issue. So I would say yes there can be a parallel made if you wanted a cross or any other religious symbol.


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 11:28

I don't see how you can demand a crucifix. Of course you should be allowed to have a crucifix, but I don't see why the hospital should provide you with one. (Even if it's a Roman Catholic hospital.)

Also the question everybody keeps ignoring except me is who chose the hospital? The way I read the story, the daughter probably did, and the father was probably already angry about that.

Certainly it wasn't the father that was getting the medical treatment.



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Posted By: arch.buff
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 16:13
Originally posted by gcle2003

I don't see how you can demand a crucifix. Of course you should be allowed to have a crucifix, but I don't see why the hospital should provide you with one. (Even if it's a Roman Catholic hospital.)

 
I dont think a hospital has the responsibility to provide me with a crucifix either; I also dont believe a Catholic clinic has the responsibility to remove a crucifix which is already present. Is that a more clear parallel?
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

 
Also the question everybody keeps ignoring except me is who chose the hospital? The way I read the story, the daughter probably did, and the father was probably already angry about that.

Certainly it wasn't the father that was getting the medical treatment.

 
For the details regarding my position refer to my first posting. The girls health and the care given to her take precedence over all trivial issues, no matter how ridiculous they may be, such as the removal of a crucifix. 


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Be a servant to all, that is a quality of a King.


Posted By: Władysław Warnencz
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2008 at 15:39
Originally posted by King John

The father had every right to demand such a symbol be taken down. He had no business carrying on the way he did but every right to ask for the crucifix to be taken down. I was born in a Christian hospital with no Crosses on the walls.

This is an incredibly trivial matter and does not warrant international discussion. I think this speaks more about certain people's "islamophobia" and xenophobia than anything else. If the father was Jewish would this have caught your attention? What if the person was Hindu or Buddhist and acted the same way, still the same reaction?

Let's also not forget that France is not a "Christian country" it is a secular republic. Being a secular republic it has no state religion so making the claim that this family lives in Christian country and should therefore accept Christianity is ridiculous.
 
Firstly,by writing they have to accept christianity i didn't mean they should convert,but find a way to live with christianity around them - for example crucifix on the walls.
 
 
And secondly,who cares where you were born and if there was a crucifix on the wall?It is no arguement.The hospital was christian so it is normal that there is a crucifix on the wall.If there wasn't it wouldn't be any different than any other hospital.When it is officialy CHRISTIAN hospital there should be AT LEAST a crucifix on the wall - if you don't like it do not go there.
 
 
And you are all right this issue is not worth international attention and that's why it is not in "Current affairs" , but here - in intelectual discussions,where even the least important issues can be discussed from different points of view.


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Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2008 at 16:30
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

This is a trivial issue that doesn't deserve international press.


I agree and besides afther she has left the hospital they could put the Crucifix back into the room. Now, if they demanded all signs of Christianity removed, unlikely, then that would be a different song.


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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε


Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2008 at 10:10
If I try real hard to see things from the irrational POV of a deeply religious person, I can understand why he wanted to have the cross removed. Still, given today's islamophobia I would probably have thought twice about doing so if I was in his place, and avoided all this negative attention.

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Posted By: Ahmed The Fighter
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2008 at 13:25
Władysław Warnencz , anyone has the right to demand what he want, the nurse could just  refuse his demand, but she was very wise and prevented unnecessary argument.
I wonder what are you trying to prove here, you made a hurly-burly for a vain subject.

arrogance, you make me laugh ,  there is no arrogance at all, maybe a fanatic act form impolite person.
Do you think such behavior is normal? yes I do.
finally, I agree with Reginmund, if I was in the man's place, I would say nothing to evade
reflecting a bad image.
I can surf  the net and  find hundreds case like this(not identical) regardless of religion or  certain group of people.
but you choose a Muslim man for a purpose, but you choose the wrong one,a scatter brained man.

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"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
Khalid Bin Walid


Posted By: Władysław Warnencz
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2008 at 18:53
Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

Władysław Warnencz , anyone has the right to demand what he want, the nurse could just  refuse his demand, but she was very wise and prevented unnecessary argument.
I wonder what are you trying to prove here, you made a hurly-burly for a vain subject.

arrogance, you make me laugh ,  there is no arrogance at all, maybe a fanatic act form impolite person.
Do you think such behavior is normal? yes I do.
finally, I agree with Reginmund, if I was in the man's place, I would say nothing to evade
reflecting a bad image.
I can surf  the net and  find hundreds case like this(not identical) regardless of religion or  certain group of people.
but you choose a Muslim man for a purpose, but you choose the wrong one,a scatter brained man.
 
 
I didn't choose someone with a certain purpose.This is just a case fit for subforum called "intellectual discussions" and can be discussed from many points of view.If you want change the word muslim with christian and crucifix with Flag of Shahada.It doesn't matter because what religions we are talking about,but wether it is right to demand such thing (nomather what is the religion).
 
Muslims however imediately start crying about islamophobia and that this is nothing important...Yes,it is not - i didn't write it is,THAT IS WHY IT IS IN INTELLECTUAL DISCUSSION AND NOT CURRENT AFFAIRS (God,how many times should i repeat this... Cry).


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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2008 at 19:11
Who was crying about islamophobia?
 
The situation would be no different if it were a Christian wanting an Islamic symbol removed, or for that matter an anti-Nazi demanding a swastika be removed, or a capitalist lackey demanding a hammer-and-sickle be removed.
 
In all those cases it would be essentially trivial. Symbols don't affect anything: attributing  importance  to them is basically childish, like believing in magic.
 


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Posted By: Władysław Warnencz
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2008 at 21:34
Originally posted by gcle2003

Who was crying about islamophobia?
 
The situation would be no different if it were a Christian wanting an Islamic symbol removed, or for that matter an anti-Nazi demanding a swastika be removed, or a capitalist lackey demanding a hammer-and-sickle be removed.
 
In all those cases it would be essentially trivial. Symbols don't affect anything: attributing  importance  to them is basically childish, like believing in magic.
 
Then why was it so important to him the crucifix to be removed?Why was he risking his daughter health for such a "childish" thing?It seems the nurses were more adult thant...

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Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2008 at 21:57
Originally posted by Al Jassas

France has no state religion, it is secular Wladyslaw just like most if not all EU countries. So his demands are perfectly legal.
 
Al-Jassas


Well, I don't consider Poland to be free of state religion. It isn't written in the constitution afaik, but still, from what I've heard...Poland kinda reminds me that Muslim guy.


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A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.


Posted By: Władysław Warnencz
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2008 at 23:01
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Originally posted by Al Jassas

France has no state religion, it is secular Wladyslaw just like most if not all EU countries. So his demands are perfectly legal.
 
Al-Jassas


Well, I don't consider Poland to be free of state religion. It isn't written in the constitution afaik, but still, from what I've heard...Poland kinda reminds me that Muslim guy.
 
It is funny how some people think such sarcasm might offend people like me.I.In fact Poland also hasn't got a state religion and that's a shame.All christian nations should live in christian,not multi-religious,multi-cultural or multi-ethnical countries.As muslims have muslim laws in their countries so should christians have laws based on the chrisitan religion.I would be very happy if you were right,unfortunately you are not.
 
BTW,you can't compare a man with a country,at least not in that case... LOL


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Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2008 at 06:55
Originally posted by gcle2003

The situation would be no different if it were a Christian wanting an Islamic symbol removed, or for that matter an anti-Nazi demanding a swastika be removed
 
I didn't know hospitals put swastikas in the wards. LOL


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2008 at 07:45
^
Never been to India have you? Or any Buddhist country.


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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2008 at 11:07
Originally posted by Władysław Warnencz

Originally posted by gcle2003

Who was crying about islamophobia?
 
The situation would be no different if it were a Christian wanting an Islamic symbol removed, or for that matter an anti-Nazi demanding a swastika be removed, or a capitalist lackey demanding a hammer-and-sickle be removed.
 
In all those cases it would be essentially trivial. Symbols don't affect anything: attributing  importance  to them is basically childish, like believing in magic.
 
Then why was it so important to him the crucifix to be removed?
Because he disagrees with me. D'oh!
Why was he risking his daughter health for such a "childish" thing?
Because he didn't think it was childish. D'oh!
It seems the nurses were more adult thant...
Yes, in my view they were. They would also have been childish had they refuses to remove it.
 
The guy was ill-mannered at best: the nurses were civilised about it.
 
What would be completely wrong would be to somehow spin that into thinking that Christians are more adult than Muslims.


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Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2008 at 11:58
The matter was interesting in a French perspective because Muslim parents/patients have been quite violent in the recent years. Several doctors and nurses are attacked every years because this or that, in general, they refuse that their daughter/wife be examined by a male doctor. So much so that some hospital had to create safe rooms to take care of these patients and toughen up the security.

What often shocks people is that people making such a rant are often of French origns and newly converted. But it is also true that this is a very small minority and that most Muslims accept to be treated by whoever is around.

So that article is rather one more drop pourred by a rightist newspaper in the jar of anti-Muslim sentiment.


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I am a free donkey!


Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2008 at 17:30
Originally posted by Władysław Warnencz

 
Muslims however imediately start crying about islamophobia and that this is nothing important...Yes,it is not - i didn't write it is,THAT IS WHY IT IS IN INTELLECTUAL DISCUSSION AND NOT CURRENT AFFAIRS (God,how many times should i repeat this... Cry).
 
You can repeat it as often as you like. It is just that no-one but you seems to believe it, and that number is likely to swindle to sub-zero with every repetition.


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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.


Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 07:31
Originally posted by Sparten

^
Never been to India have you? Or any Buddhist country.
 
No, but if I do I will ask them to take down every swastika I see. Big%20smile


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 08:58
And a headline will appear in world newspapers
 
"Swede lynched in New Delhi"
 
One of the most important symbols of Hinduism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:HinduSwastika.svg - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:HinduSwastika.svg
 
The symbol of Jainism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Swastik4.svg - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Swastik4.svg
 
Outside India
 
Falun Gong
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Falun8.svg - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Falun8.svg
 
(wonder why the PRC hasn't hit on this association yet,easiets way to condemn them in the eyes of westerners).
 
Buddhist Swatsikas in Japan
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/122/281948745_054aa7d0f0.jpg?v=0 - http://farm1.static.flickr.com/122/281948745_054aa7d0f0.jpg?v=0
 
 
 
 


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