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explorer6
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Topic: Turkish Professor: Muslims Discovered Ame Posted: 05-Dec-2006 at 10:46 |
Originally posted by Ikki
The theory have ZERO valour. But ALL, not come from the BBC but is oldest at least since 1920 when Leo Weiner wrote "frica and the Discovery of Amrica"; and of course we have the original arab accout, wich had stimulated the imagination of many persons for many time.
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Read Ivan van Sertima's writings. Very well-researched stuff. No one should accept Eurocentric "aryan" fantasies.
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explorer6
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Posted: 05-Dec-2006 at 10:40 |
Originally posted by Ikki
The theory have ZERO valour. But ALL, not come from the BBC but is oldest at least since 1920 when Leo Weiner wrote "frica and the Discovery of Amrica"; and of course we have the original arab accout, wich had stimulated the imagination of many persons for many time.
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Read Ivan van Sertima's writings. Very well-researched stuff. No one should accept Eurocentric "aryan" fantasies.
Voice of the Ancestors
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Posted: 04-Dec-2006 at 12:08 |
Don't get me wrong. I am not calling you traitor at all.
In fact, I believe the importance in the Americas in world history come from these facts:
(1) The Americas contributed with many foods, drugs and inventions the old world hadn't invented or developed at all.
(2) It show scientists how the development of isolated societies works. Theirs developments allow scientists to understand under which circumstancies the tribal people evolve into civilizations and empires.
And what great civilizations were they: Mayans, Incas, Aztecs, Moches, Anazasis, and many more.
(3) Show that inventions can be developed in parallel. As they really happened.
There is also a sentimental link with Ancient Americans. After all, they were the first people of these lands where I and others 800 million people live. It is impossible to forget them living in these lands.
Therefore, I am always upset with the thousands of theories of pre-columbian contact that are based on sand. I wish people really get interested in the past of the Americas, instead. But they are just so few the ones that really care about the civilizations of the Americas.
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Ikki
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Posted: 04-Dec-2006 at 11:51 |
Don call me traitor, because i said you that was your friends The question is, we was interested about the original source, so now that we know too the chapter the "only" that we must to do is go to Al-Umari and see his book. The theory have ZERO valour. But ALL, not come from the BBC but is oldest at least since 1920 when Leo Weiner wrote "frica and the Discovery of Amrica"; and of course we have the original arab accout, wich had stimulated the imagination of many persons for many time.
Edited by Ikki - 04-Dec-2006 at 11:53
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Posted: 04-Dec-2006 at 11:34 |
Unfortunately, "When we ruled" is not a very serious source.
http://www.whenweruled.com/articles.php?lng=en&pg=5
Actually, the "theory" comes from a guy from Ghana,
All seem to come from this new in BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1068950.stm
and a book this guy wrote:
Gaoussou Diawara - 'The Saga of Abubakari II
Just another Afrocentric fantasy, I believe.
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Ikki
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Posted: 04-Dec-2006 at 10:03 |
Althought all the pages in the net agree about that Al-Umari took the information, very few show original words of the text, and these page are from your greatest friends pinguin, the afrocentrist One of these say:
An Egyptian scholar, Ibn Fadl Al-Umari, published Masalik ab Absar fi Mamalik al Amsar
in Cairo around 1342. In the tenth chapter of this work, there is an
account of two large maritime voyages ordered by the predecessor of
Mansa Musa, a king who inherited the Malian throne in 1312. This
mariner king is not named by Al-Umari, but modern writers identify him
as Mansa Abubakari II. According to Al-Umari, this king launched two
hundred ships filled with men and a further two hundred ships amply
stocked with food, gold and water to last for two years. The ruler sent
them with a mission to explore the extremity of the Atlantic Ocean. In
time, one ship returned. Its captain told the Malian king of his
adventures. "Prince," he said, "we sailed for a long time, up to the
moment when we encountered in mid-ocean something like a river with a
violent current. My ship was last. The others sailed on, and gradually
each of them entered this place, they disappeared and did not come
back. We did not know what had happened to them. As for me, I returned
to where I was and did not enter the current." The Mansa decided to see
for himself. He had two thousand ships prepared, one thousand of which
were equipped with provisions. They set sail across the Atlantic with a
large party and never returned. Abubakari II left Mansa Musa I in
charge of leading the empire. |
Should be absolutelly amazing look all the dettails of the account, because here of course the author have posted only what he want (and imply an ocean voyage not coastal) This aren't matter for the afrocentrist claims: "so, malians discovered Amrica" As you say, there isn't any proof about this, only that some ships traveled out of the Mali empire, anymore.
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Posted: 04-Dec-2006 at 09:30 |
Originally posted by Ikki
...That Mali sent two expeditions to the Ocean, is Fact based on reliable arab sources that take note very few years after the event (Al-Umari)...
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Well, Mali of those times it was under heavy influence from the Arabs and other peoples of the Islamic world, as we can see in the library of Tombuctu; that still exists. Therefore, if Mali had a navy at those times, certainly they would use Arab nautical technology
Now, nobody denies Mali could have sent two expeditions into the Ocean, the point is where they were sent. Sailors of those times usually followed the coastal lines, so who say they couldn't end in the Mediterranean sea?of in Ethiopia in East Africa? We should not assume authomatically they were sent across the Atlantic.
Actually, I would like to see the sources, because I have found any that describe the mission with precision.
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Ikki
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Posted: 04-Dec-2006 at 08:40 |
Great pinguing, but you are confusing many things.
That Mali landed in Amrica, is Fantasy That Mali could landed in Amrica, is Hypothesis that can be and should be proved or disaproved That Mali sent two expeditions to the Ocean, is Fact based on reliable arab sources that take note very few years after the event (Al-Umari)
So i'm happy that you thing about the falsety of the first point, and i agree with your conclusion, but we can discuss without problems, without ghost of africanism or pseudohistory the other two points.
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Posted: 04-Dec-2006 at 08:08 |
There is also a fantasy about Tupac Yupanqui reaching the Polynesian Islands in a fleet of Balsa Wood rafts like the Kon Tiki of Thor Heyerdhal.
But those are STORIES not history.
Afrocentric mythologies about great explorers of the past are not more than myth, for now at least. There is not a single evidence they reached the Americas. Even if the Mali's expeditions didn't sunk in the XIV century, those events were TOO LATE to influence the development of the Americas. Moreover, North West Africans didn't have any navigation experience at all before the arrival of the Arabs in the XIII century; in fact, not even the sail was invented there. In West Africa only the canoe was known and with canoes one can't cross the Atlantic.
The point is, one should be careful to distinguish stories from history. After all history search facts, or at least it tries to do so.
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Ikki
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Posted: 03-Dec-2006 at 15:38 |
Yes of course, there aren't any evidence that these Mali expeditions could land in Amrica (well, somepeople say that native sculptures with negroid feautures in Brazil)
The question is, they triyed and had some possibles. A short account for our friends: In the XIV century, interested about what could be place on the other side of the Ocean, the King of Mali Abubakari II first sent a fleet of 200 ships. These could take a sea current but a ship fearing the ocean come back home; because they hadn't new news, Abubakari built a new fleet of 2000 ships but this time himself will command the expedition. Before the departure, he say to his brother, the famous Mansa Musa, that if he don't come back in a time MM could take the throne. The expedition went down the Senegal river into the Atlantic... and never ever return.
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Decebal
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Posted: 03-Dec-2006 at 13:31 |
Originally posted by explorer6
You sound like those racists over "Hall of Maat."
'No, one white people sailed to America. No other evidence but white people. Before that only primitives were able to cross land bridge until white people came. Did I say it was only white people?'
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Had you bothered to read the whole thread you would have seen that pinguin, if guilty of any bias, actually has one praising thr remarkable achievements of the native americans. As for the other ones on this site, and the people who write articles for the Hall of Maat, they don't simply deny the fact that Africans could have gotten to the Americas, but also the various "white people" which have been rumored to do so as well: Egyptians, Phoenicians, Romans, Irish, Welsh, Basques, etc. So drop the whole "you're all racist" stuff. It's not about being racist, it's about being skeptical until sufficient evidence is presented.
Ikki, I did hear the story of the Mali king: he built a fleet to cross the Atlantic ocean, but that fleet was never heard of again. Nice story, but I suspect that the fleet drowned instead of reaching the Americas.
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What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte
Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi
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Posted: 03-Dec-2006 at 10:25 |
Nomadic asiatic tribes where first to discover america and settle in it. Vikings did'nt discover it , moslems did'nt discover it, spanish conquesters like columbus did'nt discover it. They just made contact with the land, Its wrong to call america a discovery because there where already people there. End of discussion.
Edited by Warlord_peecard - 03-Dec-2006 at 10:27
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Ikki
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Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 15:02 |
Do you know guys who was Abubakari II of the Mali Empire, in the XIV century? It's a beatiful story that very few people know... search about it
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explorer6
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Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 14:43 |
Originally posted by pinguin
Originally posted by ok ge
Let us say the Africans came to the
Americas before, so what is the big deal here? Everything is possible
in history, |
Africans came to the Americas before? How? Swimming?
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You sound like those racists over "Hall of Maat."
'No, one white people sailed to America. No other evidence but white
people. Before that only primitives were able to cross land bridge
until white people came. Did I say it was only white people?'
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Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 13:44 |
Actually, that's another kind of fantasy, but is minor. After all the Portugueses were the ones that oppened the Age of Discovery, thanks to the work of Henry the Navigator. The circumnavigation of Africa, the trip to India, the Discovery of the Americas and the trip around the world where all achievements done during the "Oceanic Race" between Portugal and Spain. And the sailors were Portugueses, Spaniards and Italians.... Latinos all.
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Worldhistory
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Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 00:35 |
Many will be dissapointed to know that the first Europeans to discover the Americas were the Portuguese and then the Spanish Conquistadores.
All other stories are fantasies held by lesser envious people.
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Hellios
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Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 23:02 |
I'm dropping this thread also.
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red clay
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Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 22:33 |
The Hall of M is at the far end of the spectrum, and is peopled by those who declare rather than consider. If you go to a Centrist site[dead center] The members and contributors to that site [hall of m] are called Maatzis Hardly seen as a credible source, or an unbiased source.
There are Several posts here that are so Ethnocentric as to be outrageously racist, and I will no longer participate. No one else seems to mind the thinly disguised [subtle] Racism. Racism is racism,whether it's hidden in extreme ethnocentrism, or covered in the smoke and fire of false indignation and moral outrage, it's still racist BS.
Edited by red clay - 13-Nov-2006 at 22:37
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Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 21:47 |
Children tales of Vikings reaching lands of Greenland and the Americas were common before clear evidance were discovered. |
Before clear archaeological evidence was discovered. The Vikings had detailed records of "Vinland" before that happened. Most people were fairly certain "Vinland" was Newfoundland, but there was never conclusive proof. On the other hand, all the other proliferations of theories are ridiculous. The only one that has the slightest proof to back it is Menzies' 1421 hypothesis, and that is pretty much trash anyway.
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Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 21:28 |
Originally posted by ok ge
Originally posted by pinguin
West Africans didn't know so basic elements like the sail! They didn't know to write either! |
So I should assume the vikings were educated professors and writers? who said there were no language symbols in West of Africa? who said they don't know how to built boats? does it have to be huge boats? not really.
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Show your evidence, please. Previous to the Muslim conquest of West Africa, circa the 12th century, the natives there didn't have advanced ships at all, only canoes. If I am wrong, prove it.
Moreover West Africans before the Arabs didn't know writing whatsoever. The Africans alphabets were invented in the 19th century. Moreover, even after the Arabs conquered West Africa, the classical of Mali, the Sundiata, was transmitted orally during 7 centuries before put on writing in the '60s!
Unlike West Africans, Vikings -with all the brutallity and barbarism they had in its times- did have writing! They also have all the technology of the West of those times, including advanced metalurgy and ships reinforced with iron. Besides Norse where a nation of sailors, like Greeks or Polynesians. West Africans were not.
Originally posted by ok ge
Originally posted by pinguin
Robbing the heritage of Native Americans is the big deal. Any person of the Americas, with a drop of self respect on him, will reject those absurd fantasies. |
Calm down here, an ancient contact with the Africans does not mean "robbing the heritage of Native Americans". You sound so offended as if the West African civilizations were sub-human and we cannot at all consider them capable of doing anything except hunting!
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Yes. IT DOES. The problem is not with Africans, Chineses or Martians. The problem is that EVERY PEOPLE in the Old world want to ROBB the heritage of the Native Americans.
I didn't judge subsaharan peoples. I just said they didn't have the required tech at the required time. We are talking about 500 years B.C.!
Originally posted by ok ge
Originally posted by pinguin
No. It isn't. Everything is possible in pseudohistory and children tales |
Children tales of Vikings reaching lands of Greenland and the Americas were common before clear evidance were discovered. |
Norse sagas are known during centuries. They describe quite clear where and how they landed. There is anything like that in the transoceanic fantasies.
Besides, take a look at the map. The only foreigners that ever touched the Americas during the last 10.000 years were the Inuits and the Norse. Both people entered through the Artic, where they have to cross relative short distance to arrive. In zones where you can reach the Americas in a kayak!
Crossing the Pacific or the Atlantic is a lot more dificult than that, and it was never done. That's simple.
And please, read this paper.
Please read this paper. You may wake up to the truth:
"Goodbye Columbus? The Pseudohistory of Who Discovered America"
Pinguin
Edited by pinguin - 13-Nov-2006 at 21:30
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