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lirelou View Drop Down
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Posts: 528 		  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: North Korea Discussion
    Posted: 23-Mar-2013 at 10:01
JuMong, the only strategic advantage that South Korea obtains from our continued presence is that a conflict would tie us into the post-war clean-up. They would lean on us heavily in the rebuilding of North Korea.  I am convinced, and I believe that the massive anti-American demonstrations in the wake of the 2002 Yangju Highway incident bears me out, that upon 1) the collapse of North Korea, or 2), our assistance in rebuilding it in the wake of a re-opening of the war, the South Koreans would simply declare a date upon which we would have to evacuate the  peninsula that would have no relation to any UNC/USFK plans.

We would sit in our bases and whimper that the Koreans were ungrateful, and snivel about how badly our land bases are needed on the Asian mainland to keep the peace. We would keep letting out contracts and forge ahead with base upgrades and construction, all the time hoping that the Koreans would change their minds. Then we would be angry when they don't.

The Koreans meanwhile would be very gracious, giving out military medals and unit awards for past services, and then announce that former USFK members, to include civilians, would be eligible for discounted airline fares on Korean airlines, as part of a 'Re-visit Korea" campaign. MKeanwhile, down in the dirty tricks department of the far Left and Right of ROK politics, idealists would be churning out U.S. Base "comfort women" articles, alleging that the U.S. owes billions to the former B girls for the degradations they suffered, with the alleged collusion of the USFK command, at the hands of U.S. troops, and enlisting the anti-military and ultra-feminist wings of the American Left in their cause. 




Edited by lirelou - 23-Mar-2013 at 10:04
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Posts: 89 		  Quote JuMong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2013 at 08:45
RE lirelou:


I agree with you, America needs to get out of SK, but it's not just SK.  U.S. is nearly bankrupt and can no longer afford to able the policeman of the world.  It needs to face that reality. At the same time, the so called American allies must also spend more money defending their own countries.

We maybe a lot closer to reaching the second Dark Age after the fall of the USA; but, I just don't think most countries are ready for that. 
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Posts: 89 		  Quote JuMong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2013 at 07:58
SKYFALL : 2013


I thought I saw a spammer named "skyfall" recently on this board? Can anyone track that address?

I'm seriously beginning to question the recent barrage of Meteor showers??? It seems like these guys are playing a serious game of chicken.  Who are they? US & SK vs Russia and China, NK and Iran ? 

It may have begun with the Russians in 2011? I'm trying to find the article about the Russians test firing a missile while Obama was in Europe in 2011? It might have been an earlier date with Bush? US always answers these provocations. Where was that meteor over Russia headed? A zinc factory? 

I really don't care who started this, but this is beginning to tread on a dangerous territory. We need to cool it. I just hope, I'm imagining all this...


Russian event 2-15-2013


http://www.infowars.com/russia-shot-down-the-meteor-theory-spreads-online/

(Alex Jones is not as crazy as you think.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=r-FBZom8_HE#!


Missile tests:

http://www.infopig.com/keywords/Missile-Launch.html





Edited by JuMong - 23-Mar-2013 at 08:39
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lirelou View Drop Down
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Posts: 528 		  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2013 at 23:22
Ah yes. All good general rules. But I like to think of Korea in Bismarckian terms: Given that the ROK has the conventional capability to win a war with North Korea (though USAF support would be valuable icing on the cake), what in Korea is worth the life of a single Pomeranian Grenadier? (Or, a single USMC Lance Corporal.)




Edited by lirelou - 22-Mar-2013 at 23:25
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Posts: 7392 		  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2013 at 22:34
All apt..... tho I disagree with the withdraw of the presence...simply because as my fellow vet knows, 'presence' is a application of necessary force 'projection' inherent to what follows below.
 
 
 
 
 
Knowing well MG HR McMaster's; I am a proponent of his general philosophies. And was, when he was first being commissioned back in 84. When I was already a Captain. His and mine were an accumulation of our predecessors knowledge of 'lessons learned' and the applicability of their use in future force commitment. I learned mine under J. Brandenburg, C Vouno, D. Starry, C. Abrams, R. Wagner. T. Tait, F. Brown, G. Sullivan, T. Franks and M. Thurman to name a couple. And their immediate juniors and subordinates. He learned his from the men who were Captains and Majors and Colonels who served under the former.
 
 
 
 
What makes him special today is he continues to promote their applicability. And so at the expense of sounding repitious...when dealing with the DPRK and or any potential threat...four general considerations are paramount.
 
 
 
 
a. War is an extension of national politics and international relations...preparation for it is synonymous. Nothing new. Clausewitz voiced it first long ago.
 
 
 
 
 
b.  War and the preparation for it and the execution of it; is a dynamically human affair. It involves virtually every aspect of the 'modern condition', as it once did the ancient... ie. economics, governmental types, theological influences and cultural and social adaptations and development. Nothing new. Caesar knew this 2000 years ago.
 
 
 
 
c. War is always uncertain. No matter the prep-planning and numerical, physical, psych, factors. And other corollary factors involved ie. equipment, technology and, or RDA. Nothing new.
 
 
 
 
 
d. War, and it's by products, economic repercussions, costs and consequences, social disruptions, loss of life, etc...is a contest of wills....which is to say an anathema to the appeaser and the dominance one seeks over his opponents. Obvious...since the days of cavemen. But unless one is willing to accept the cost or react to a direct threat vital to national survival.... force must be tempered with as much reason and not emotion as possible. Ntl. the question is often asked: when has that line been crossed? Never, ever is the answer the same.
 
 
 
 
 
So when one pursues an investigation of the 'whys and why nots' of whether to apply force to counter a perceived or actual threat....especially rogue nations like the DPRK or Iran; one if smart, examines that above. Because by their very nature, democracies are not actually willing to conduct 'total war' as it's been most recently defined often. And the question then remains....if not...then be prepared to deal with the later and potential geopolitical repercussions... and counter reactions and opposition. Especially when one attempts it versus a foe that nationalistically, politically, and or theologically inclined or not,  is prepared to resist.
 
 
 
 
In the end, each conflict is different. Great or small. And to a greater or lesser degree the mechanisms of being able to counter each threat, is narcissistic at worst or falsely optimistic; if the political and military leadership does not treat them as such...ntl remembering to apply lessons learned.
 
 
 
 
But equally important to  develop, train, maintain and equip a force for as many contingencies as possible..... and to inculcate in the civil leadership the same motivations and attitudes. And that friends and neighbors is never easy.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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Posts: 528 		  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2013 at 21:05
First, on diplomacy: Diplomacy only works when both sides have something to give and something to lose. There is a track record of U.S. and ROK efforts to deal with North Korea diplomatically, particularly in regards to obtaining from them a promise to cease developing atomic weapons, and the only winners so far has been the North Korean regime.

Second, the previous South Korean governments tried ten years of appeasement. It's results are what we are seeing now.

If it were up to me, I would withdraw all U.S. forces from Korea, but keep the treaty between ourselves and the ROK. We only went to Korea to keep the ROK out of the "Communist Bloc" in the Cold War, when the ROK was a very new and untried state, its Army likewise new, untrained, under-equipped, and inexperienced, and our principal adversary was the Soviet Union. The USSR no longer exists as such, the Sino-Soviet bloc is a term now consigned to ancient history, the Republic of Korea is standing on its own two feet and has a modern, well trained, and experienced military quite capable of defending itself. The ROK military no longer needs a U.S. ground presence, but out Air Force and Navy would be a valuable addition to them in any war with the North. Finally, our minuscule presence in Korea costs us a fair amount of money. Withdrawing our remaining troops would lift that burden from our own shoulders, and place then upon that of the RFOK taxpayer, which is where it rightfully belongs in this day and age. 

Fortunately for the ROK taxpayers, no one has elected me God for a day.
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Nick1986 View Drop Down
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2013 at 20:39
There's a simple solution: kick North Korea out of the UN and cut off all aid. If Kim retaliates, launch missile strikes on his main military bases, power stations and any other places believed to store nuclear missiles
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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Posts: 7392 		  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2013 at 18:48
The only provocation, as usual, lies at the door of the DRPK. The only saber rattling and ongoing nuc tech and proliferation lies there as well. The ongoing threats and no doubt further military aggression, covert and overt attacks on resources and disputed islands will also be from the same.
 
The question is not whether the US and the ROK continue military exercises that they have been conducting for decades as a deterent. It will be the third generational response of the wackos in the North.
 
The key is not an overreaction on allied nations parts.......it will, as usual, be dependent on the PRC.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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Posts: 89 		  Quote JuMong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2013 at 17:23

We are not dealing with a rational government as they are becoming increasingly paranoid. America's provocation is only creating more problems. As I've said,  there is nothing wrong with diplomacy. Even if it takes 100 years, we need  to talk ourselves out of this. There is no other option. 

-------
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvj4uDYH3RA


Edited by JuMong - 21-Mar-2013 at 18:36
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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2013 at 15:12
We already are involved in that "war".  The NK gov. canceled the Truce.  That means hostilities could resume at any time.  Diplomacy?  You cannot reason with an unreasonable person.
 
Considering our son would be in the thick of it, CV's son also, I sincerely hope it would be solved by cooler heads than those in pyong yang.
 
 
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
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Posts: 89 		  Quote JuMong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2013 at 14:39


The North Korean Crisis has been in the news lately. 


Not that anyone cares, but I'm hoping to find some sort of solution to this problem. Main issue that I hope to deal with has to do with America's failed policy regarding the North. America's show of force is not helping anyone. I'm afraid we have little choice but to use diplomacy regarding North. There is no other option. America cannot afford to get embroiled in another War.







Edited by JuMong - 21-Mar-2013 at 18:37
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