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TheDiplomat
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Topic: The future of Karabakh Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 20:11 |
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
The common people in Armenia support the Karabakh Armenians. |
And I am sure of it. Patriotism blinds the eyes of people to the extend that they come to forget their economic plight. And for the dominant classes everywhere, international scores are the best remedy to numble people on domestic failures.
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 19:58 |
The common people in Armenia support the Karabakh Armenians. If
you put the most random Armenian in charge of the country, their
position on the Karabakh issue will be the same (in fact its one of the
only things that the ruling class and common people see eye-to-eye on).
So it is not a matter of land-grabbing, it is a matter of justice. The
Soviets took Karabakh and Nakhichevan from Armenia and put the Azeri
administration in charge. The Armenians of Nakhichevan were
subsequently erased from the region, and for 70 years, Azerbaijan's
only region with an Armenian majority (Karabakh) has lived in abject
poverty due to administrative neglect. They asked for secessions
diplomatically and peacefully for decades, even while under Soviet
rule. Azerbaijan responded by not only keeping them in abject poverty
for decades through administrative neglect, but by having a pogrom of
the entire Armenian population of Azerbaijan in 1988 and occupying
Karabakh militarily. Thus, the administration in Azerbaijan clearly
does not seek peaceful ways of solving the problem (and even according
to your view on the Armenian government, which more or less matches my
own view, Azerbaijan's is not better by any means). Prosperity only
comes when Azerbaijan gets off occupied lands handed to them by the
Soviet imperialists AND recognizes them as not part of their nation.
Only then will refugees from BOTH sides be able to return and normal
trade between all countries of the region can resume.
Originally posted by TheDiplomat
the hateful,militaristic dominant class in Armenia which numble
the common people with Anti-Turkish rhetoric and glorification of more
territory like Karabakh and Eastern Turkey |
Turkey and Turks are not even spoken of in Armenia, let alone in a
negative light. I think you're confusing Karabakh with the rest of
Armenia. While Karabakh-Armenians and Armenians of the ROA regard each
other as brothers and countrymen, their mentality and psyche is very
different from one another. I'm sure those Azeris who were unfortunate
enough to fight Armenians don't have many nice things to say about
Armenians either. Its natural, they were at war, and all thats stopping
them from more war is an uneasy ceasefire. We need real solutions to
the problem. The only real one is Karabakh's secession from Azerbaijan
(the reasons which I gave above). Only then can borders be opened and
refugees be returned.
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TheDiplomat
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Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 18:52 |
What I hope for the people of Armenia is prosperity. Simple as that.Because only then the common people in Armenia will be enlighted and stronger to question the hateful,militaristic dominant class in Armenia which numble the common people with Anti-Turkish rhetoric and glorification of more territory like Karabakh and Eastern Turkey so that they could sustain their priviliged status at the expense of the Armenian people who lose economically a lot because of cooling down relations with Turkey whenever a new hope emerges..
Edited by TheDiplomat - 27-Aug-2006 at 18:56
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mamikon
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Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 17:27 |
yeah...it would have been a lot better for Armenia to give up Karabakh...and in a couple fo years Zangezur and in another couple of years cease to exist.
The situation in Armenia is not as bad as you would hope...Armenia apart from Belarus and the Baltic states is the only SU state to surpass it's 1986 GDP
Edited by mamikon - 27-Aug-2006 at 17:27
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TheDiplomat
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Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 16:33 |
In my opinion,Karabakh ,worldwide diplomatically recognized Azeri territory as well as now occupied by the state of Armenia, will likely to remain under the occupation which will inevitably put a heavy burden on the dominant class in Armenia also.
The dominant class in Armenia did not only choose to cut off the relatios of their state with her neighbours permamently despite the fact that Turkey was one of the first to recognize and welcome the Armenian state but is this dominant class in Armenia also the real cause for their people to keep on living with low standarts of living in an isolated island located at a region like Caucasuss just because a piece of mountainous territory called Karabakh
Edited by TheDiplomat - 27-Aug-2006 at 16:36
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bg_turk
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Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 17:05 |
Originally posted by mamikon
from your own source:
Tigranashen, until 1990 the Azerbaijani enclave of Kyarki, S of
the road, is now inhabited by a mixture of local Armenians and refugees
from Azerbaijan.
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meaning Armenian refugees from Azerbaijan, not Azeri Turks.
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mamikon
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Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 14:52 |
from your own source:
Tigranashen, until 1990 the Azerbaijani enclave of Kyarki, S of
the road, is now inhabited by a mixture of local Armenians and refugees
from Azerbaijan.
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bg_turk
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Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 12:51 |
Originally posted by mamikon
Also, note that it says the town is now inhabited by Armenians and Azeries. |
That's not true.
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mamikon
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Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 11:31 |
Lets see, you choose to believe a pro-Armenian site when it suits your needs but at other times you call it a propaganda site? are you willing to believe "other" information from www.cilicia.com? I doubt it...
To prove your argument you have come up with a Wikipedia site, pro-Azeri sites, and pro-Armenian sites. I am not saying I know the date when Tigranashen was captured, but so far you have given sources with varying dates. Is there any neutral documentation pertaining to the Armenian capture of the town.
Also, note that it says the town is now inhabited by Armenians and Azeries. If it were captured by Armenians, why are Azeries still living there?
There are no Armenians in Azerbaijan...(except a couple of course, who were married into Azeri families). Since I mentioned them, did you know that Azeri police would steal Armenian women from their Azeri husbands to trade them with captured Azeri soldiers (I might have mentioned this some where)
And wow, that embassy site, Naxichevan has been an Armenian land for thousands of years with over 90% Armenian population in 1920 and the website says " Like other areas of Azerbaijan, the Nakhchyvan lands were staked to Armenians after it was captured by Russian Army"
lol
Edited by mamikon - 25-Aug-2006 at 11:37
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bg_turk
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Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 22:11 |
Originally posted by mamikon
Exactly....your quote from www.answers.com, comes directly from wikipedia...
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ok, here is another non-wikipedia pro-Armenian source: http://www.cilicia.com/rediscover.pl?action=browse&id=Ararat_Marz&revision=4
Tigranashen, until 1990 the Azerbaijani enclave of Kyarki, S of
the road, is now inhabited by a mixture of local Armenians and refugees
from Azerbaijan.
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The Azeri embassy says: http://www.azerbembassy.org.cn/eng/back_chron.html
1990 January 13 - As a result of the armed attacks Armenians occupied the
village of Karki in Nakhchivan AR.
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Another Azeri source: http://gateway.az/cgi-bin/cl2_gw/browse.cgi?lang=en&topic=000e0401
the Soviet Amy marched into Baku and
committed a bloodshed on January 19, 1990. 8 hours due to bloodshed in
Baku the Russian-Armenian combined military troops captured the village
Karki in Nakhchyvan Autonomous Republic and made attack along the
boundary. |
So, it seems Kyarki was captured in black January (as Azeri Turks call it [1]) 1990, and not in 1989, or in 1992. So the point remains that Armenia was the first to violate Azeri soveregnity and was the first to initiate the hostilies. [1] http://www.january20.net/
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mamikon
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Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 20:58 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
indeed lol. Wikipedia is such a reliable source. In english it says one thing, in french another: |
Exactly....your quote from www.answers.com, comes directly from wikipedia...
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 15:29 |
Incase you missed what I said about the
origins of this conflict, Nakhichevan was part of Armenia's first republic
before Stalin's unjust annexation to Azerbaijan, which also saw Karabakh pass
into the hands of the Azeri authority. At the time of transfer around half of
Nakhichevan's population was Armenian. What happened to these people under
Azeri administration? Note that the exclave you mentioned (how big is this area
anyway?) is inhabited by local Armenians and refugees driven out of Azerbaijan during
the 1988 pogroms. Yes, 1988, before any Armenian aggression towards Azerbaijan.
The Azeri authorities did nothing to stop mobs of Azeris going around looting
Armenian businesses and driving Armenians from their homes in Sumgait,
Kirovabad, Baku, and anywhere in Azerbaijan where Armenians were living. Low
and behold, the Soviet army itself had to disarm Azeri militias carrying out
the pogroms because Azerbaijan couldn't be bothered to stop the Ottoman-esque
policy towards Armenians.
We can either point fingers all day or we can talk about Karabakh.
Originally posted by bg_turk
The rest of the Azeri villages were occupied around the same
time, but there are not many online sources for this. I am sure you can ask some
knowledgeable person about the occupation, and they will confirm the time.
Armenia was the first to attack and occupy Azeri terrtiory. |
Given as world opinion strongly favors Azerbaijan in
this conflict, don't you think there would be more online sources in
their
favor than for the Armenian side? Wouldn't anything exploitable already
be
exploited seeing as their arguments are more favored by the
international
community? Or maybe the world supports Azerbaijan for other
reasons...oil...a thorn
in the side of Iran...its political gravitation away from
Russia.....etc...things that have nothing to do with the Armenian
conflict in other words.
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bg_turk
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Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 12:37 |
Originally posted by mamikon
Karki (also known as Kyarki or Tigranashen) is an exclave of Azerbaijan's Nakhichevan Autonomous Republic. It is part of the Sadarak rayon and is completely surrounded by Armenia and has been controlled by it since its invasion during the Nagorno-Karabakh War
in May 1992. The main highway connecting northern Armenia with southern
Armenia passes right by this village. Today, the village is mostly
inhabited by Armenians due to a forceful population exchange between
Armenia and Azerbaijan during the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. It has
been renamed Tigranashen by the Armenian government.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karki_(Azerbaijan)
lol
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indeed lol. Wikipedia is such a reliable source. In english it says one thing, in french another: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karki_%28Azerba%C3%AFdjan%29
Karki est contrl par les forces armniennes depuis 1989. Le principale autoroute reliant le Nord de l'Armnie au Sud du pays passe par ailleurs l'intrieur du village.
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But the fact is Armenia invaded in 1989.
Edited by bg_turk - 23-Aug-2006 at 12:38
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mamikon
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Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 11:50 |
Karki (also known as Kyarki or Tigranashen) is an exclave of Azerbaijan's Nakhichevan Autonomous Republic. It is part of the Sadarak rayon and is completely surrounded by Armenia and has been controlled by it since its invasion during the Nagorno-Karabakh War
in May 1992. The main highway connecting northern Armenia with southern
Armenia passes right by this village. Today, the village is mostly
inhabited by Armenians due to a forceful population exchange between
Armenia and Azerbaijan during the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. It has
been renamed Tigranashen by the Armenian government.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karki_(Azerbaijan)lol
Edited by mamikon - 23-Aug-2006 at 11:50
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bg_turk
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Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 17:30 |
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
It doesn't say anything like that in your source, and I have never
heard of Armenia annexing Azeri enclaves in 1989.
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It is a fact that Azeri enclaves were all illegally annexed by Armenia in 1989. You may wish to check on that. edit: sources
Karki (or Kyarki or Tigranashen) is an exclave village of Nakhichevan which has been occupied by Armenian forces since 1989. | http://www.answers.com/topic/karkiThe rest of the Azeri villages were occupied around the same time, but there are not many online sources for this. I am sure you can ask some knowledgeable person about the occupation, and they will confirm the time. Armenia was the first to attack and occupy Azeri terrtiory.
Edited by bg_turk - 22-Aug-2006 at 18:20
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 15:35 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
Survival,
To claim that Armenia was not involved in the war and
that Azerbaijan was the first to invade sovereign Armenia is
propestorous and ridiculous. In the year of 1989, when Azeri Turks were
totally unaware of the catastrophe that was to befall them several
years later, Armenia unilaterally attacked and invaded the sovereign
Azeri territories enclaved within Armenia. All three pockets of Azeri
Turkish land - Barxudarli, Yuxari Askipara and Karki - were annexed,
and their populations cleansed. Was this not an act of war? And this in
1989, before any Azeri attack against Armenians whatsoever. Armenia
did all of this without even bothering to declare a war. The names of
these towns have since been changed. |
It doesn't say anything like that in your source, and I have never
heard of Armenia annexing Azeri enclaves in 1989. In 1989 the Soviet
army was deployed in Yerevan, Baku and Karabakh in order to keep both
sides under control:
Karabakh seceded from Azerbaijan on July 12, 1988. Azerbaijan's Supreme Soviet
declared the act illegal according to the Constitution of the Soviet Union which stated
that borders of a republic could not be changed without its consent. In September,
Moscow imposed martial law on Stepanakert and Aghdam. In November, Soviet Interior
Ministry troops deployed to Yerevan, Baku, and Karabakh and, in May 1989, Soviet
Army troops were sent to Stepanakert. On December 1, 1989, the Armenian Supreme
Soviet declared Karabakh a part of Armenia. The Azerbaijan Popular Front (PF), then
an opposition political party with a militia, began a rail blockade of Armenia and
Karabakh, restricting food and fuel deliveries. Anti-Armenian violence occurred in
Baku in January 1990. In the ensuing Soviet Army occupation of Baku, many Azeris
died or were wounded. The Soviet Army began to disarm militias and allegedly joined
in deporting Armenians from Azerbaijan and Karabakh in spring 1991. |
http://www.fas.org/man/crs/92-109.htm (your source)
Originally posted by bg_turk
As I told you already Armenia had already invaded all Azeri enclaves in
1989. Yet, even after this Azerbaijan did not annex Armenian enclaves
within its territories. Azerbaijan only seized the Armenian territory
in Artsvashen after the Armenian attacks in Karabakh and the invasion
of Azerbaijan through Lanchin. |
You're still calling the Armenian actions in Karabakh "attacks" as
if to imply that they struck first. We have already established that
Azerbaijan provoked Armenians by initiating pogroms and starting the
armed conflict (unless you haven't paid attention to anything I've said
thus far).
Originally posted by bg_turk
I searched the internet for the text of the articles you pasted above and the only sites
that cam up are a Nagorno-Karabakh site and a Trans-Dniester propaganda sites.
Both are entities unrecognized by the international community. |
Why would state departments have a copy of the secession bill that
I posted on their websites? It goes against their very interests.
Indeed the only people interested in the bill are people who are
fighting for the rights of autonomous regions in the former USSR, which
is why they are the only ones bringing it to peoples' attention.
Originally posted by bg_turk
The ultimate
arbiter of Soviet Law, the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Union
declared Karabakh's declaration of secession null and void. |
Yes but in 1990 the Supreme Soviet of the USSR signed the
secession law for autonomous districts which makes Karabakh's actions
legal.
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bg_turk
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Posted: 19-Aug-2006 at 14:05 |
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
Theres your explanation right there. Did the Azeri military think
they could fire on Armenian forces from Kelbajar while invading
sovereign Armenia (who was not directly involved in the war prior) and then not
spark a reaction?
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Survival, To claim that Armenia was not involved in the war and that Azerbaijan was the first to invade sovereign Armenia is propestorous and ridiculous. In the year of 1989, when Azeri Turks were totally unaware of the catastrophe that was to befall them several years later, Armenia unilaterally attacked and invaded the sovereign Azeri territories enclaved within Armenia. All three pockets of Azeri Turkish land - Barxudarli, Yuxari Askipara and Karki - were annexed, and their populations cleansed. Was this not an act of war? And this in 1989, before any Azeri attack against Armenians whatsoever. Armenia did all of this without even bothering to declare a war. The names of these towns have since been changed.
Why would they fire on their enemy and then try to
blend in with the civilian population? Its their fault for putting
their own civilians in harms way.
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There was nothing left of the Azeri army. It was in disarray, disorganized and scaterred. Soldiers deserted en masse. Some ran away other returned to their villages in order to save their families from being butchered by the Armenian agressor, just to find them looted and burning. To claim that Azeri soldiers could use their mothers, sisters and close family as a civilian shield is the ugliest claim that the Armenian propaganda machine has come up with. Azeri soldiers were just running away, as all people would do against a superior millitary force.
And why do you keep forgetting that Azerbaijan siezed the Rep. of
Armenia town of Artsvashen prior to the takeover of Kelbajar? According
to your source, Azerbaijan siezed the Rep. of Armenia town of
Artsvashen on August 8-9, 1992. Kelbajar was taken in March of 1993.
Clearly the Azeris acted in that region first. Both towns are in the
west of Azerbaijan and very close to the Republic of Armenia (one of
them BELONGS to the ROA) and any Azeri military presence in the region
threatens the Armenians when you consider that Azerbaijan was not shy
about attacking anybody in this war (they initiated the military
conflict in Karabakh and then siezed sovereign territory from the
Republic of Armenia).
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As I told you already Armenia had already invaded all Azeri enclaves in 1989. Yet, even after this Azerbaijan did not annex Armenian enclaves within its territories. Azerbaijan only seized the Armenian territory in Artsvashen after the Armenian attacks in Karabakh and the invasion of Azerbaijan through Lanchin. Concerning Kelbajar, I might just say that your whole defense theory that Armenians looted, cleansed and demolished the city in order to defend themselves is crap. At the time all major countries, including but not limited to USA and Russia, condemned the invasion of Kelbajara as an unjustifiable and unnecessary attack.
Edited by bg_turk - 19-Aug-2006 at 14:16
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 18-Aug-2006 at 14:25 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
Main Karabakh Armenian units fired on escaping civilians, sometimes
mistaking them for retreating Azerbaijani forces. |
Theres your explanation right there. Did the Azeri military think
they could fire on Armenian forces from Kelbajar while invading
sovereign Armenia (who was not directly involved in the war prior) and then not
spark a reaction? The fact that the Azeri military was even active
there is a good enough reason to invade the city, seeing as they used
every other location around Karabakh as a launching pad for their
illegal invasion. Why would they fire on their enemy and then try to
blend in with the civilian population? Its their fault for putting
their own civilians in harms way.
And why do you keep forgetting that Azerbaijan siezed the Rep. of
Armenia town of Artsvashen prior to the takeover of Kelbajar? According
to your source, Azerbaijan siezed the Rep. of Armenia town of
Artsvashen on August 8-9, 1992. Kelbajar was taken in March of 1993.
Clearly the Azeris acted in that region first. Both towns are in the
west of Azerbaijan and very close to the Republic of Armenia (one of
them BELONGS to the ROA) and any Azeri military presence in the region
threatens the Armenians when you consider that Azerbaijan was not shy
about attacking anybody in this war (they initiated the military
conflict in Karabakh and then siezed sovereign territory from the
Republic of Armenia).
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
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bg_turk
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Posted: 18-Aug-2006 at 02:47 |
So just looking from the map you concluded Kelbajar was a threat? On what grounds? The children and women that Armenians expelled from the province, many of whom died due to exposure fleeing under harsh winter conditions over the Murov mountains, were they also a danger? Here is a section of the Human Rights Watch report pertaining to the capture of Kelbajar:
Rather than capture the rest of Karabakh
as Sarkissian predicted, Karabakh Armenian forces - with alleged Russian and Armenian
military support - seized all of the Kelbajar Province of Azerbaijan in a "blitzkrieg"
operation that began March 27 and ended by April 5 [39]. During
this offensive, they committed several violations of the rules of war, including
forced displacement of the civilian population, indiscriminate fire, and the taking
of hostages.
At the time of the offensive, mountainous
Kelbajar province was largely cut off from the rest of Azerbaijan. Armenia lie to
the west, the Lachin corridor (captured by Karabakh Armenian forces in June 1992)
to the south, Mardakert province (with its vital Terter-Kelbajar road in Karabakh
Armenian hands) to the east, and to the north, the Murov mountains reaching heights
of over 10.000 feet toward over the province. Because of prior Karabakh Armenian
land conquests, the only outlet from Kelbajar to Azerbaijan proper was over the
Murov mountains to the north through the Omar pass, a treacherous journey in winter.
An estimated 60.000 individuals
- equally divided among Kurds and Azeris - lived in Kelbajar province before the
offensive [40]. In the space of a week 60.000 people were forced
to flee their homes. Today all are displaced, and Kelbajar stands empty and looted.
The swift and short nature of the Kelbajar
offensive, the mountainous terrain with few good roads, over which it was fought,
and the late winter timing of the attack left the civilian population extremely
vulnerable; many were taken hostage or killed by indiscriminate fire, even though
most expected a Karabakh Armenian move against Kelbajar, civilians had little or
no advance warning of the actual attack and even less time to make their escape
after the limited roads still available were closed by advancing Karabakh Armenian
forces. The Azerbaijani army put up little resistance often melting away into the
civilian population. Main Karabakh Armenian units fired on escaping civilians, sometimes
mistaking them for retreating Azerbaijani forces.
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A Caucasus-based American journalist in Kelbajar during the offensive
and evacuated by helicopter wrote that,
By Thursday afternoon, April 1, a fleet of six ME-8 civilian
helicopters, designed to carry a maximum load of thirty, managed to extract
several thousand women and children by doubling and trebling their loads.
The helicopters were forced to swoop through a narrow canyon to reach a tiny,
shell-pocked landing pad and then fly over a 4.000 meter mountain range to
return to their base in the Azerbaijani city of Yevlakh, about an hour away...even
if most of the civilian population is now gone or on its way out the situation
in Kelbajar is certainly desperate [57].
On noon on April 1, the last helicopter
flight left Kelbajar, and no more evacuation attempts were made because of the increased
shelling around the helicopter pad [58]. By April 3, Karabakh
Armenian forces were in complete control of Kelbajar.
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I leave it to others to decide whether Kelbajar posed any threat to the Armenians and to judge what really lied behind the Armenian invasion.
Edited by bg_turk - 18-Aug-2006 at 02:50
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 18-Aug-2006 at 01:21 |
Kelbajar is a city wedged in between Armenia and Karabakh...how
could it not have threatened nearby Armenian areas? Look at the map:
Also, when you mentioned Republic of Armenia military involvement,
you conveniently left out this sentence which appeared right before the
portion you quoted:
By August 8-9,
Azeris captured Artsvashen, a pocket of sovereign Armenia within Azerbaijan |
The Republican Armenian involvement in Kelbajar you mentioned was
AFTER this incident. The situation makes more sense now that I have
provided what you conveniently left out.
And the document on the secession that I quoted is known as " The law of the USSR of April 3, 1990 (Register of the Congress of
the People's Deputies of USSR and Supreme Soviet of USSR. 1990, issue
No. 13, p. 252)",
it is also referred to as the 1990 USSR Law on Secession. It was
adopted in 1990, 13 years after the constitution you quoted. Indeed,
the Supreme Soviet of the USSR has the legal authority to amend clauses
in the Soviet constitution.
And please stop posting individual stories. Listing the
humanitarian violations committed during the war is meaningless since both sides
are accused of a myriad of things.
Edited by ArmenianSurvival - 18-Aug-2006 at 01:23
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