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The most oppressed nation in the Middle East

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  Quote Night Crawler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The most oppressed nation in the Middle East
    Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 03:00
I will tell you who are oppressed in the Middle East --Its easy anyone who isn't a Suuni Muslim male in Sunni Lands or a Shia Muslim male in Shia lands-- If you aren't the same relgion and a Man your screwed in the Middle East:
 
How about the women in Sadi Arabia. Lucky for them the Saud government is stepping in.
 
From the Economist Politics this week:
 
In an attempt to stop child marriages, Saudi Arabia began issuing wedding contracts in which the bride’s age must now be given. The move was prompted by cases of girls as young as eight being married off to much older men.
 
Or how about the Ahmadis
 
Heavily armed men stormed two mosques in the Pakistani city of Lahore, detonating bombs and killing more than 90 Ahmadis, members of a persecuted Muslim sect. Other gunmen attacked a hospital three days later, apparently trying to free one of the mosques’ attackers. Police blamed the “Punjabi Taliban”.
 
How about Justice that is oppressed:
 

A 48-year-old Somali begs for his life as he is partially
buried in preparation for stoning over adultery by an
Islamic court.  (Needless-to-say,
he wasn't successful).

Put the Numbers in Perspective


More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined. (source)
 

Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years. (
source)

More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland. (source)

19 Muslim hijackers killed more innocents in two hours on September 11th than the number of American criminals executed in the last 65 years. (source)
 
You have to love the Liberal attitude in the Middle East--These are the guys the Shield of D defends?
 
But back to the Jews--Yes they mucked it all up, yes they were heavy handed, they could have handled this better but:
 

Harmony is not just a dream

Israel is caught in a vicious circle. The more its hawks think the outside world will always hate it, the more it tends to shoot opponents first and ask questions later, and the more it finds that the world is indeed full of enemies. Though Mr Netanyahu has reluctantly agreed to freeze settlement-building and is negotiating indirectly with Palestinians, he does not give the impression of being willing to give ground in the interests of peace.

Yet the prospect of a deal between Palestinians and Israelis still beckons. The contours of a two-state solution remain crystal-clear: an adjusted border, with Israel keeping some of the biggest settlements while Palestine gets equal swaps of land; Jerusalem shared as a capital, with special provisions for the holy places; and an admission by Palestinians that they cannot return to their old homes in what became Israel in 1948, with some theoretical right of return acknowledged by Israel and a small number of refugees let back without threatening the demographic preponderance of Jewish Israelis.

And what about Hamas, if Israel is to lift the siege of Gaza? How should Israel handle an authoritarian movement that refuses to recognise it and has in the past readily used terror? One answer is to ask the UN to oversee the flow of goods and people going in and out of Gaza. That is hardly a cure-all, but Hamas would become the world’s problem neighbour, not just Israel’s. The Arab world must do more, pressing Hamas to disavow violence, publicly pledge not to resume the firing of rockets at Israeli civilians and revoke its anti-Semitic charter. The West, led by Mr Obama, should call for Hamas to be drawn into negotiations, both with its rival Palestinians on the West Bank as well as with Israel, even if it does not immediately recognise the Jewish state. It is still the party the Palestinians elected in 2006 to represent all of them. None of this will be easy. But the present stalemate is bloodily leading nowhere.

Israel is a regional hub of science, business and culture. Despite its harsh treatment of Palestinians in the land it occupies, it remains a vibrant democracy. But its loneliness, partly self-inflicted, is making it a worse place, not just for the Palestinians but also for its own people. If only it can replenish its stock of idealism and common sense before it is too late.

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  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 23:27
 Persons like Shield of Dardania (-Great Turkey?!) spread official Turkish propaganda in this forum not for the first time. I`m amazed about their awareness in this matter from one hand, and totally turning a blind eyes to the obvious things from another.
 
Did anybody going to Turkey outside big cities of Istanbul, Ankara, Bursa and Izmir? Situation is very very miserable! There is numerous villages without electricity, water supply and sanitation in 21 century. People work on the fields with horses and steer, like they did hundreds of years before. Many send their children to work as cheap labor all across Europe (especially Germany) and lived almost for the money they bring back to them. Every village have at least one mosque and many people can`t read, but know Quran by rote absolute brainwashed from Islamist priests.  Is this your modern country, seeking to measure forces with Europe!?  If you go forward in easternmost Turkish region, you will see is a military zone. Soldiers in every step, barbed wire, emplacements, checkpoints and silent people scared to talk it`s Kurd language on public.
 
Turkish economy depend on "pussy footing" Europe and other foreign investment (Japan and USA). European companies build a factory and plants in Turkey, not Turkish itself because they don`t have any potential to produce anything without foreign help. Only a food products. Outside NATO and with Islamist aggressive government on top all this investment will escape immediately, be sure about it. Tha`s why Erdogan is cautious to this moment, but obviously he begin to lose correct idea of things from awhile.
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  Quote Night Crawler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 21:32
Really with what economic resources? They don't have oil. The only thing than can do is build a pipeline to get oil and natural gas out of the Mid East--However Russia will never allow that to happen.  True enough they have a good manufacturing sector and a goog Ag sector- They make some decent cars-- But if not in the EU who is going to be them--Perhaps the middle calss in Afghanistan (HA HA) Or Iran (HA HA)  Even your heros the AK want to join the EU:
 
 Opinion polls are not always reliable in Turkey. Compared to previous poll by Konsensus published last month, the AK Party was down 2.8 percent, the CHP was down 1.2 percent while the MHP was up 1.4 percent.

Erdogan is hoping an economic recovery will boost the AK Party's popularity ahead of next year's scheduled vote.

Before Turkey sank into recession in 2009, the AK Party presided over years of strong economic growth and launched historic talks to join the European Union.

But it is distrusted by Turkey's powerful secular elite, including top judges and army generals, because of its roots in political Islam. The party denies any Islamist agenda. (Writing by Ibon Villelabeitia; Editing by Ralph Boulton)
With out the EU and NATO The will be reduced to begger status soon enough. Funny the AK seems to deney they are Islamist even they want to be secular. Turkey might have some hope yet


Edited by Night Crawler - 03-Jun-2010 at 21:45
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 18:17
Originally posted by Night Crawler

Maybe Greece can beat on Turkey after they leave NATO. Would be nice to rename Istanbul.
Yes. You can have that some time. Just maybe. In your dreams.Approve
 
Guys, you still don't get it. Turkey will survive, and later thrive, if they don't get into EU. I hope EU gives Turkey a clear, firm rejection some time. Instead of continually pussy footing and dilly dallying with no end in sight. It will then force Turkey to wean itself off Europe. In fact, I really feel that leading Turkish economists should start advising Turkey's leaders to stop begging for this lousy, virtually worthless membership.
 
Turkey then will have to reinvent itself, revamp itself and realign itself. It will be painful initially, but it will be good fot Turkey in the long term. Turkey is a Eurasian realm. It has to learn - or rather, re-learn - how to play as a Eurasian realm. An independently thinking, independently acting Eurasian realm. Not remain as an old faithful western lapdog.
 
The future is in Asia much more than Europe. Turkey will rediscover its Asian roots and prosper as a result of it, instead of perennially languishing as an economic beggar on the periphery of Europe. When Turkey one day revives its past glory, which it surely will, Europeans will look at it again with genuine respect, rather than derision and contempt.
 
As for NATO, it can eject Turkey if it wants. Let's see what happens. One likely scenario is Turkey drifting in the direction of its Turkic brothers in Asia, towards the China-Russia camp. If that is what NATO wants, fine then. So be it. Turkey won't wilt, let alone die.


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 03-Jun-2010 at 18:32
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  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 16:37
If Turkey starts any agression with Israel it will seriously dash any hopes they have of joining the EU, somthing they have been pushing for, for quite sometime.
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  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 10:58
Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus

Turkey will come back around they need the US-- They need US Logistical support, and the want the new Joint Strike fighter.
 
As for the invasion of Iraq--Once again SoD you are uninformed--Really you need to read more then jusy sensationilist headlines.
 
Turkey wanted to be the Invading force, they had thier leopards on the Iraqi border, they claim Iraqi land from the border to Kirkuk. When they were told they couldn't claim that land during the invasion thats when they got P@##$# off and refused, they also wanted a lot of US money as a bribe. Guess what we still used our bases in Turkey to attack Iraq, where do you think our planes flew from?
 
Yes, quite typical to Turkish policy. Two-faced towards "friends" and always hungry about foreign territory. I also hear about it. There is a information about Turkish plan for North Iraq occupation, just after Coalition force withdraw. In this moment only presence of Coalition forces stopped aspiration of Turkey and ensure Iraqi territorial integrity. Turkish army really love this priom of surprised attack against weak and unprepared enemy, just like they did in Cyprus. Obviously Turks want to begin restoration of their Ottoman empire from Iraq and Aegean islands. In 1998 they send a war ultimatum to Syria and put Syria on it`s knees. They wanted unconditional release of interference in internal affairs and transmission of suspected in PKK support. Now Turkey wants to extend its influence among Palestinians and started a game of nerves with Israel. If it`ll be war between Turkey and Israel, this will be end of Turkey, because Israel will smash Turkey in every aspect (include navy) and most generally- Turkey will finally lose the support of NATO. Nobody in Brussels want to be a shield of Turksih imperial ambitions.


Edited by Kanas_Krumesis - 03-Jun-2010 at 10:59
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  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 05:14
Originally posted by Night Crawler

However, Isreal with out the states is nothing.  So cut them both off and watch them beat eachother with sticks and stones.
 



Not going to happen though, too much of a lobby for Israel.
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  Quote Night Crawler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 04:27
Turkey with out NATO is nothing-- Cut them off and watch them come crawling back. However, Isreal with out the states is nothing.  So cut them both off and watch them beat eachother with sticks and stones.
 
 
Maybe Greece can beat on Turkey after they leave NATO. Would be nice to rename Istanbul.
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 03:45
By the way the next most powerfull ME nation is Egypt coming in at 17
 
16
Map of Taiwan Taiwan
17
Map of Egypt Egypt
18
Map of Iran Iran
19
Map of Mexico Mexico


Edited by Maximus Germanicus - 03-Jun-2010 at 03:47
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 03:42
Turkey will come back around they need the US-- They need US Logistical support, and the want the new Joint Strike fighter.
 
As for the invasion of Iraq--Once again SoD you are uninformed--Really you need to read more then jusy sensationilist headlines.
 
Turkey wanted to be the Invading force, they had thier leopards on the Iraqi border, they claim Iraqi land from the border to Kirkuk. When they were told they couldn't claim that land during the invasion thats when they got P@##$# off and refused, they also wanted a lot of US money as a bribe. Guess what we still used our bases in Turkey to attack Iraq, where do you think our planes flew from?
 
I should have specified Turk Naval Power--The Turk Army with out NATO support isn't quite the level of Isreal in terms of a ground army, however they have a good Navy and Good (NATO Supported) Airforce. With NATO support Turkey more than likley is the most powerfull Middle eastern country but not with out NATO.
 

Rank 1-10 Observations: The United States (GFP formula value of 0.184) remains the undisputed leader of our list thanks to their staying "active" in global hotspots, showcasing the world's largest navy and continuing to poor in gobs of money into defense. Our formula sees China edge out Russia but only by the slimmest of margins (0.238 versus 0.241 respectively) with an edge in available manpower and financial capital. France (0.636) and Germany (0.672) are relative equals for the most part but the GFP formula gives a slight edge to France thanks to an aircraft carrier and capable navy as well as a bump in defense spending. Brazil (0.756) is the most powerful South American country on the list thanks to available manpower and a capable navy. Japan (0.920) is a "sleeper" power that sneaks into the top ten with a good navy, strong logistical infrastructure and capital.

Rank 11-20 Observations: Our formula provides for a good disparity between North and South Korea, placing South well-ahead of the North thanks to better infrastructure and capital. Mexico's placement this high on the list is interesting to note - it scored a good balance across the board in all major categories. Israel finally gets a proper placement on this year's list - just out of the top ten - sporting a strong land army with equally strong training, modern equipment and recent combat experience.

 
 
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 03:31
Originally posted by Kanas_Krumesis

Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus

I agree thatTurkey could smash the IDF with out NATO help or any other army in the middle east. I would read up on the new CoS he is not exactly a radical Muslim--
 
You have to remember the Turks really don't like the Arabs or the Persians-- most of the anger in Turkey is over the EU, France is blocking it. They don't feel respected. Also Turkey has had a long History of working with the Jews. There was and is a large Jewish Community in Istanbul. This current crisis will pass. It is all political. Turkey wants the new joint strike fighter and the new leopards, they will get them. This is what all this is about.
 
Also the governments support is mainly in the provinces not in the cities, almost all off the Officer corp is wetern educated. Turkey is an strange bird to say the least.
 
I`m really amazed by this conclusion. Maxi, you forget that Israel is a nuclear power with third arsenal in the world by size. They have a ballistic rockets. Ever in 70`s Israel have enough military power to smash all Middle East and North African country. To occupy their territory. Israeli have a weapons their own production. You personally talk about excellent battle tank "Merkava" as one of the most steady machine in the world. Israeli navy have their own made missle boats.  Produce and sell weapons all over the world (Uzi, Galil, TAR-21, Negev, Desert Eagle). Their own Aerospace industry, advanced technology... 
 
What is Turkey? Their army was create after 1945 by USA and NATO to be a stronghold during Cold war against USSR expansion towards Mediterranean sea and Middle East. The army is western oriented, while masses of the population are Islamists and dreams about long dead Ottoman empire. USA from decades have been donate Turkish army by millions dollars. Army made several coup to take-over embarrass for Washington Islamist and Nationalist governments. After end of the Cold war role of the army in Turkish society begin to fall. For 8 years Turkey is ruled by Islamist and anti-western government. The foreign politics is official focused over recovery of Ottoman empire, which mean aggressive pressure (include military) in South-East Europe (The Balkans) and increase of Turkish influence in Middle East. They used a image of Muslim advocate, protector and leader of Islamic world. Turkey is not USA and NATO ally anymore and people in Washington begin to realize it. EU stoped process of Turkish inclusion, because new Turkish official imperialistic ambition contrary to European interests. Turkey refuse to step in 2003 Iraq war and even refuse to give it`s territory in help of "ally" US army. Turkey recently make a deal with Iranian dictator Ahmadinejad (hateful to Iranian people) to help his nuclear programme in face of all world soceity (EU, USA, and even Russia). From begining of this year Turkish military provocations towards Greece (also NATO member) are something usual and make a deep anxiety in the region. Not only flights by heavily armed Turkish fighters at low altitude over Greek islands in Aegean sea, but also deep break of Greek territorial waters by naval vessels- http://sofiaecho.com/2010/03/16/873927_turkish-naval-corvette-enters-greek-waters-and-sails-almost-to-athens
 
What is Turkish army? Aircrafts- American F-16, tanks- German "Leopard", ammunition and logistic -dependent on NATO. Army personal- big by size, well trained and motivated. Own military products or inventions-none. Nukes-none.
 
It`s  matter of time of similar collision like last one. Izrael ever once respond to the Turkish challenge (diplomatic). Izrael have no fear to attack Turkish ship into international waters. I think they accept the challenge. I personally expect Turkey soon to be excluded from NATO.
 
I should have been more specific I was talking about Naval power in case Isreal attacks the flotilla.
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 23:50

Iraq 2003 was an invasion. A naked, unprovoked, unauthorised, absolutely illegitimate invasion by America. Iraq and Iraqis had nothing to do with WTC 9/11. It was totally unjustified.

Turkey was right to have made a principled stand not to allow itself to get dragged into an atrocius debacle. A tough call, but a wise one. There was no attack by any country on a NATO Member State anyway. If it was a terrorist attack, then it was a terrorist attack. Just a group of independent, freely acting individuals. Why punish Iraq for it? Saddam Hussain's dictatorship yadda yadda yadda notwithstanding.
 
Israel might have no fear of Turkey. But then, neither does Turkey hold any fear of Israel, their 800 nukes notwitstanding.
 
Israel's victories in ME in the past have been relatively quick decisive victories against qualitatively much inferior opposition. It hasn't been tested in a long drawn out war against a worthy opponent. It even struggled to cope with Hezbollah in 2006.
 
Turkey is not Syria, nor Egypt. If Israel really has the balls, let's see it show them then. 


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 03-Jun-2010 at 00:32
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  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 12:36
Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus

I agree thatTurkey could smash the IDF with out NATO help or any other army in the middle east. I would read up on the new CoS he is not exactly a radical Muslim--
 
You have to remember the Turks really don't like the Arabs or the Persians-- most of the anger in Turkey is over the EU, France is blocking it. They don't feel respected. Also Turkey has had a long History of working with the Jews. There was and is a large Jewish Community in Istanbul. This current crisis will pass. It is all political. Turkey wants the new joint strike fighter and the new leopards, they will get them. This is what all this is about.
 
Also the governments support is mainly in the provinces not in the cities, almost all off the Officer corp is wetern educated. Turkey is an strange bird to say the least.
 
I`m really amazed by this conclusion. Maxi, you forget that Israel is a nuclear power with third arsenal in the world by size. They have a ballistic rockets. Ever in 70`s Israel have enough military power to smash all Middle East and North African country. To occupy their territory. Israeli have a weapons their own production. You personally talk about excellent battle tank "Merkava" as one of the most steady machine in the world. Israeli navy have their own made missle boats.  Produce and sell weapons all over the world (Uzi, Galil, TAR-21, Negev, Desert Eagle). Their own Aerospace industry, advanced technology... 
 
What is Turkey? Their army was create after 1945 by USA and NATO to be a stronghold during Cold war against USSR expansion towards Mediterranean sea and Middle East. The army is western oriented, while masses of the population are Islamists and dreams about long dead Ottoman empire. USA from decades have been donate Turkish army by millions dollars. Army made several coup to take-over embarrass for Washington Islamist and Nationalist governments. After end of the Cold war role of the army in Turkish society begin to fall. For 8 years Turkey is ruled by Islamist and anti-western government. The foreign politics is official focused over recovery of Ottoman empire, which mean aggressive pressure (include military) in South-East Europe (The Balkans) and increase of Turkish influence in Middle East. They used a image of Muslim advocate, protector and leader of Islamic world. Turkey is not USA and NATO ally anymore and people in Washington begin to realize it. EU stoped process of Turkish inclusion, because new Turkish official imperialistic ambition contrary to European interests. Turkey refuse to step in 2003 Iraq war and even refuse to give it`s territory in help of "ally" US army. Turkey recently make a deal with Iranian dictator Ahmadinejad (hateful to Iranian people) to help his nuclear programme in face of all world soceity (EU, USA, and even Russia). From begining of this year Turkish military provocations towards Greece (also NATO member) are something usual and make a deep anxiety in the region. Not only flights by heavily armed Turkish fighters at low altitude over Greek islands in Aegean sea, but also deep break of Greek territorial waters by naval vessels- http://sofiaecho.com/2010/03/16/873927_turkish-naval-corvette-enters-greek-waters-and-sails-almost-to-athens
 
What is Turkish army? Aircrafts- American F-16, tanks- German "Leopard", ammunition and logistic -dependent on NATO. Army personal- big by size, well trained and motivated. Own military products or inventions-none. Nukes-none.
 
It`s  matter of time of similar collision like last one. Izrael ever once respond to the Turkish challenge (diplomatic). Izrael have no fear to attack Turkish ship into international waters. I think they accept the challenge. I personally expect Turkey soon to be excluded from NATO.
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  Quote Night Crawler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 04:08
Armenians-- No question So much for your Turks they shouldn't be in NATO anyway
 
 
Don't you fool realize that its not the Taleban it is Pakistan. They are supporting the war--The longer the war goes that get more US money and and an unstable Afgahnistan allows them to remain the power-
 
Bring back ole Mushi he would out an end to this we need more puppets
 
 


Edited by Night Crawler - 02-Jun-2010 at 04:17
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 03:56
'Western educated' does not necessarily have to mean 'poodle of the west'.Approve The education is intended to liberate your mind, not to bind it in chains.
 
Hey, I'm western educated too, remember?
 
No, you severely underrate the close underlying relationship between Turkey and Iran, and Turkey and the Arab states. Forget the occassional petty little spats between neighbours. More importantly, their histories are intimately intertwined, all the way to even ancient, very ancient pre-Islamic times.
 
BTW, it has also often happened that new developments first develop in the provinces, then spread gradually but relentlessly to the cities.
 
No, I don't believe this is just about EU membership, JSF or Leopards. It's much, much deeper than that. It's a vast, new, fundamental transformation in the entire Turkish political landscape. Turkey has, eventually, made the decision to embark on the long awaited, very very important journey to rediscover and reinvent itself.


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 02-Jun-2010 at 04:12
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 03:46
I agree thatTurkey could smash the IDF with out NATO help or any other army in the middle east. I would read up on the new CoS he is not exactly a radical Muslim--
 
You have to remember the Turks really don't like the Arabs or the Persians-- most of the anger in Turkey is over the EU, France is blocking it. They don't feel respected. Also Turkey has had a long History of working with the Jews. There was and is a large Jewish Community in Istanbul. This current crisis will pass. It is all political. Turkey wants the new joint strike fighter and the new leopards, they will get them. This is what all this is about.
 
Also the governments support is mainly in the provinces not in the cities, almost all off the Officer corp is wetern educated. Turkey is an strange bird to say the least.
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 03:20

MG. Apparently, you still don't get it, despite your army background. If the Executive can order the arrest of top military generals on suspicion of plotting an overthrow, with the approval of the Chief of Armed Forces (not that the fellow had much of a choice anymore), then who is really in power?

You are still living and dreaming in the past. But things are changing in Turkey even as you are typing away. Even the Turkish military itself is now powerless to stop it. They can resist the PM and the Prez, but they can't resist the entire Turkish nation, can they? And the nation are now ... solidly ... with ... Erdogan and Gul.
 
The only way Turkey is moving forward is toward becoming a properly Muslim country, rather than the nominal one it has been all this while. Not an extremely fanatical one, but still a properly Muslim one. The trend is unstoppable and irreversible.
 
NATO will have to accommodate this latest developments if NATO still values Turkey as a Member State. While Turkey will only remain in NATO for as long as its membership is appreciated and is beneficial to Turkey. Otherwise, it could become another 'France', exitting NATO while remaining a NATO close ally.
 
With some strategic adjustments, Turkey does not need to be a part of the EU to continue trading with EU and benefiting from it. A well-managed, well-organised, efficient economy can remain productively engaged with any other economy without having to be part of any formal economic alliance.
 
Correction to your bonehead statement:
If Turkey attacks Israel and Israel fights back, that is not an Israeli attack on NATO. But if Israel attacks Turkish territory, then that is an attack on a NATO Member State, and therefore is an attack on NATO. BTW, however, Turkey alone is powerful enough to smash Israel to bits, without NATO assistance.
 
The Army has the money, power and guns? Wow! If the King is powerful enough to subdue the General, will the Army obey the King or the General?


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 02-Jun-2010 at 03:45
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  Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 02:20
Maybe the jews are hated by arabs ,turks and iranians which surround them, but for sure the most opressed people are the kurds. messed on their population size (35-45 mio) and their situation you can´t compare other nations with them. Maybe the assyrians have also no land but in fact they are less than 2 Million Assyrians. and they are distributed to many countrys without connection. Some live in Lebanon,Syria some in Iran some in Armenia some in Azerbaijan some in Turkey some in Northafrica. But the problem by kurds is they are one divided nation between 4 Borders. It´s like some strenger came to your home and just Draw a border between you, the parents and your sister.


Edited by Xorto - 02-Jun-2010 at 02:38
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 01:29
Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

What wisdom? Apart from your Washington-manufactured crap, you don't have any. Absolute zilch.Approve
 
You're out of touch again. As usual. Haven't you heard, Mr. Reccip Tayyip Erdogan and his friend Abdullah Gul has already taken the military and other vital state apparatus - all formerly controlled by secular Janissary's descendants - under their authority.
 
The army, navy and air force is now under complete civilian control. They all  have to answer and report to Erdogan as Head of Government. While Gul as Head of State is Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces. No more army-led coup d'etat for Turkey.
 
The Army has the money, power and guns, doesn't matter who is nominally in charge
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 01:27
Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

What wisdom? Apart from your Washington-manufactured crap, you don't have any. Absolute zilch.Approve
 
You're out of touch again. As usual. Haven't you heard, Mr. Reccip Tayyip Erdogan and his friend Abdullah Gul has already taken the military and other vital state apparatus - all formerly controlled by secular Janissary's descendants - under their authority.
 
The army, navy and air force is now under complete civilian control. They all  have to answer and report to Erdogan as Head of Government. While Gul as Head of State is Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces. No more army-led coup d'etat for Turkey.
 
Thats where you are wrong again. Yeah that upset the armed forces but trust me on a few things
 
1. NATO will not let Turkey drift east over Israel
 
2. Turkey will be part of NATO or not be in the EU
 
3. Turk military will reatke the nation before they lose the funding from the west
 

A State outside the State

The Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) is a powerful military machine, whose numbers are only surpassed within NATO by the United States. Armament renovation has been a national priority for decades, supported by all governments without reservations�until now. Furthermore, all new acquisitions and their destinations have been managed by military leaders without any parliamentary control. Thus, the military budget, supposedly 5% of Gross Domestic Product (which places Turkey as the nation within NATO using the greatest percentage of GDP for military), is elaborated by the military staff and its approbation by the legislative power is only formally limited without any debate.

 
Are you talking about the sledgehammer plot-- Yeah that hurt the military but it is still the real power in Turkey
 
Since they use all NATO equipment and are funded by NATO I really don't see turkey drifting away from the west
 
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