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Most Significant Event in History from 1000 to 1500 C.E.

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Poll Question: Most Important Event in History from 1000 to 1500 C.E.
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2 [2.33%]
3 [3.49%]
7 [8.14%]
22 [25.58%]
14 [16.28%]
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Spartakus View Drop Down
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Most Significant Event in History from 1000 to 1500 C.E.
    Posted: 15-Dec-2005 at 07:14
The Fall of the Byzantine Empire.
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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  Quote Athanasios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2007 at 17:19

Well ,the fall of Byzantine(1204 to 1453) empire was the main reason for the Italian Renaissance .Huge amounts of knowledge transferred to Italy by byzantine scholars.Renaissance was the precursor of enlightment .It was also the reason of Colombu's voyages.He wanted to find a new route by sea to India because Ottomans occupied the existed land routes .The profits for western civilization were indirect.


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  Quote Frederick Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2007 at 17:24
Originally posted by Degredado

Originally posted by Imperator Invictus



  • Voyages of Columbus: Symbolic beginning of colonization

Only to the very ignorant. The discoveries began way before Columbus. The very same can be said of colonialism.

 
This is quite true, I expected a bit more knowlage from you, Invictus.


Edited by Frederick Roger - 27-Jan-2007 at 17:25
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2007 at 17:38
Originally posted by Komnenos

Gave me the idea to a new game. Take some random historical events and processes and establish a causal(or other) connection.
Heres my try.

The rise the Seljuk Emipre forced the Byzantine Emperor Alexios Komnenos to ask the Western Europeans powers to come to his assistance. The resulting Crusades weakened the Byzantine Empire (1204 and all that) to that extent that it couldnt prevent the Rise of the Ottoman Empire, whose beginnings were a direct result of the later destruction of The Seljuk Empire through the The Mongol Conquest. The Conquest of Constantinople in 1453 through the Ottomans, was one of the contributing factors to the emergence of the Renaissance in Italy , and forced the European powers to look for an alternative to the routes to South-Eastern Asia that had previously maintained the contact to India and China, and might have brought the concept of the printing press to Europe that Gutenberg re-invented. This search thus motivated the Voyages of Columbus.
Gutenberg's re-invention made the wider distribution of humanist texts in the Renaissance possible.
The Establishment of the Ming Dynasty was the reaction of the Chinese people against centuries of Mongol rule after The Mongol conquest.

Which was the most important event then? Or is one event not more important than another, as they all are in a causal relationship?

Any idea, how to fit the blooming The Hundred Years War in?




verry intresting and all true.

so according to our Moderator the Seljuks were at the base of everything


this is why I as only person have selecte the seljuks
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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  Quote Slick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2007 at 17:40
Invictus said symbolic beginning of colonization, not the actual beginning of it. The voyages of Colombus resulted in massive amounts of European colonization explicitly in the New World, and such. :/
 
Anyways, I'd vote for either what he said or the Mongol Conquests. The Mongol Conquests were important not because they temporarily brought massive amounts of land under control of the Khan, but because they opened up old trade routes. The opening up of old routes allowed for more trade between Europeans and Asians. In turn this inspired Marco Polo's sea journey to Kublai Khan's court, as sea travel was less expensive than taking a land route (although I heard that there were some European explorers who did, in fact, travel via a land route to distant places in Asia following the Mongol conquests). And Polo's journey in turn helped inspire European colonization and exploration in general, I suppose.


Edited by Slick - 27-Jan-2007 at 17:43
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 17:58
Originally posted by Maju

...
I think that Iberian colonial enterprises, including not just Colombus' but also Vasco de Gama's travels, were only very indirectly caused by the rise of the Ottoman Empire. In fact they probably were more just a byproduct of local circumstances and Italian Renaissance.

Portugal, which is the starter of these explorations was initially most interested in reaching the gold of the Sudan than the extremely far away Eastern Indies. Spices and silk were surely valuable items but intially that wasn't the plan.

Italian Renaissance surely helped in transoceanic travels by offering an improved theoretical knowledge of the world to Western Europe. Colombus and Magallaes among others are thought to be Italians themselves. Of course traditional Aragonese presence in the Mediterranean and particularly in Italy was important for this knowldege trasmission.
....
 
Very much agree!!
 
The merith of the Age of Discovery can be found easily in the enterprise of Prince Henry the Navigator, which was the first fellow to systematically explore new regions of the world, classified navigation charts, design new ships specially suited for the task (the nao and caravel) etc.
 
Spain started its enterprise as a competition against Portugal, and the expeditions of Columbus and Magellian were part of that nautical race, quite similar to the space race between the U.S.S.R. and the U.S.
 
Pinguin
 
 
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 18:08
Some events that I might have added are...
 
- The unification of German Empire.
- Discovery of Nuclear weapons, and the beginning of Cold War
- Britain's Industrial Revolution (Ex. Mass production technique)
- The coming of Jesus Christ, Muhammad, and other religious figures.
- Breakout of World War II
- Creation of Israel
- Alexander's Conquest
- Emerge of Roman Empire
- Barbarian invasion to Roman Empire
- Black Death over Europe
- Spanish Conquest over South, Middle and some of North America.
- Battle in the Plains of Abraham
- Japanese Empire's declaration of war against United States and her allies
- Invention of railways, and telegram
- The Great Scatter of Indo-European civilization in the flooded Black Sea.
 
 
     
   
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 18:09

Forgot these,

- Invention of Compass and Gunpowder in China
- Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nation"
- French Revolution
- Conflicts in the Middle East (Modern time)


Edited by pekau - 28-Jan-2007 at 18:10
     
   
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 18:12
For me, the Discovery of the Americas by Christopher Columbus is the single event that has produced the greatest impact in history of all.
 
Before Columbus trip, the world was divided in two halves, with about 60% percent of the lands for Afro-Eurasia and 40% for the Americas. In populations the Old World has of around 500 million people while the new world had a population between 15 to 25 millions.
 
After contact, and even with all the crimens against Native Americans and the explotation of Africans, the wars between colonial powers and all that, the Americas become the Promissed Lands of the world. Since then and up to now, people of all the world want to come to the Americas because there is no other place like it in the whole world.
 
The Americas have today the most powerful country (U.S.) one of the highest standar of living (Canada), some of the most dinamic new economies (Brazil) and a standard of living well beyond the average of Africa or Asia for all the rest.
 
Without Columbus comming, most of the people of the New World who are mixtures between peoples of different continents, would have never existed!
 
So, as an inhabitant of the Americas I have no doubt about it. Columbus is first.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
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  Quote Dream208 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2007 at 00:26
Actually, I will prefer the fall of Song than the rise of Ming as the significant historical event which changed the fate of Far East and balance of world powers.
 
There are some scholars today believed that the Chinese civilization ends with the Song Dynasty, though I think this statement is abit of an exaggeration.
 
Of course, we can also put the Fall of Song under the category of the rise of Mongols. But I personally think this event alone marked its significance like the Fall of Constantinople.
 
The Mongol did not "reopen" the trade between East and West. The Song and perhaps Jin dynasties had made continuous trade with the Middle-East.
 
The Song dynasty's navy existed to protect the trade route - the Ocean Silk Road, which the Chinese merchants travelled to the South Asia and Persian Gulf or even Constantinople. During the Southern Song dynasty, the export tax income exceeded the land tax income first ime in the history of China.
 
Thus, the trade between East and West after the fall of Han have never been fully stopped since as late as the founding of Tang. And I doubt Mongol had brought more positive element to the international trade than the Song dynasty. I hope some economic history expert can present insight on this matter.


Edited by Dream208 - 29-Jan-2007 at 00:54
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  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2007 at 00:35
the black plague
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  Quote Slick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2007 at 03:22
Originally posted by pekau

Some events that I might have added are...
 
- The unification of German Empire.
- Discovery of Nuclear weapons, and the beginning of Cold War
- Britain's Industrial Revolution (Ex. Mass production technique)
- The coming of Jesus Christ, Muhammad, and other religious figures.
- Breakout of World War II
- Creation of Israel
- Alexander's Conquest
- Emerge of Roman Empire
- Barbarian invasion to Roman Empire
- Black Death over Europe
- Spanish Conquest over South, Middle and some of North America.
- Battle in the Plains of Abraham
- Japanese Empire's declaration of war against United States and her allies
- Invention of railways, and telegram
- The Great Scatter of Indo-European civilization in the flooded Black Sea.
- Invention of Compass and Gunpowder in China
- Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nation"
- French Revolution
- Conflicts in the Middle East (Modern time)
 
 
 
Slight Problem: Many, if not all, of these events happened way after or before AD 1,000-1,500. :/
 
By the way, I went against conformity and voted for the Mongol Conquests. The re-opening of trade routes stretching from Asia to Europe had a profound effect on the world, that outmatched even the discoveries of Columbus, in my opinion. Columbus only discovered America; there had been European voyages and colonization in other countries for years. Moreover, the re-opening of trade routes may have increased European curiosity and knowledge of the outside world, and thus indirectly spawned European voyages of exploration and colonization.


Edited by Slick - 29-Jan-2007 at 03:25
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2007 at 06:17
I was initially going to vote for "Columbus Voyages" as it was clearly one of the most significant events and also affects us all in some way or another today.
 
However, on second thoughts I read what was wrote about the Seljuks and thought. If the Seljuks were defeated at Malazgirt maybe the Byzantines would have recovered and the Crusade which devasted Constantinople would not have been able to occur. Byzantines could have taken full control of Anatolia again and even start spreading again. The trade route's would still be open to Europe forcing them not to sail half-way round the world. The Byzantines way have even joined the crusades and taken the middle-east.
 
The possibilities are endless.
 
Saying this I voted Ottoman before reading any of this and now I can't vote again so my bad. Tongue
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  Quote Frederick Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2007 at 06:55
The problem with Columbus is that his "accident" had no direct influence in the rise of colonialism. It was something that was bound to happen anyday (unless you still believe the old fairytale of no one knowing there was another continent there). LOL
 
Plus, as to it's "symbolic" role, well, pardon me for thinking this was an Historical discussion. If it's al about symbolisms then I elect the burning of the Savoy as the "symbolic" start of the Communist Revolution. Wink  
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2007 at 07:54
Originally posted by Frederick Roger

The problem with Columbus is that his "accident" had no direct influence in the rise of colonialism. It was something that was bound to happen anyday (unless you still believe the old fairytale of no one knowing there was another continent there). LOL
... 
 
Who knew it?
 
Not even Norses have a clue they were in a different continent at all.
 
Otherwise, please show your evidence.
 
As far as I know, between other things, Columbus jump started the Spaniards who surpassed Portugueses in their races to discover new lands. And Portugal never recovered from that.
 
Yes, it easy to understand why Columbus is not celebrated in Portugal Big%20smile.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Frederick Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2007 at 09:20
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Frederick Roger

The problem with Columbus is that his "accident" had no direct influence in the rise of colonialism. It was something that was bound to happen anyday (unless you still believe the old fairytale of no one knowing there was another continent there). LOL
... 
 
Who knew it?
 
Not even Norses have a clue they were in a different continent at all.
 
Otherwise, please show your evidence.
 
 
Solid evidences do not exist, nor could they. However there are several hints. 
 
Just for you, my friend, I found a nice Wikipedia reference in your language(I double checked it, dates are correct, depite Wikipedia's bad reputation). http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planisferio_de_Cantino
 
This map was in Italy by November 1502, only four months after the first official cartography mission to Brasil came back (featuring Americo Vespucio). Now, it is not impossible that, in just four months, cartographers made a map that was then copied and then shipped to Italy. But it is an extremely tight schedule, wouldn't you agree?
 
Writer Jean de Nry, in 1558, was in Brazil. In his book he reports talks with the oldest portuguese settlers, some of which state they were born there, after their fathers had travelled to Brasil since it was discovered 80 years ago. Now, I'm no math expert, but 1558-80=1478. 
There are severall other letters, writings, chronicles that features even more disrepancies in dates. Feel free to surf the web for it, but have in mind that a lot of it is rubbish.   
 
Originally posted by pinguin

As far as I know, between other things, Columbus jump started the Spaniards who surpassed Portugueses in their races to discover new lands. And Portugal never recovered from that.
 
Yes, it easy to understand why Columbus is not celebrated in Portugal Big%20smile.
 
Pinguin
 
Your previous comparisson of the Portugal/Spain rivalry to the Space Race between USSR and USA is interesting. Just like USSR sent the first man into space, Spain is believed to have set the first foot on the Americas. But the USA (that is, the Portuguese) were the ones who got to the moon (that is, India) first. And pardon me by being rude, but saying the Spanish surpassed the Portuguese in discovering new lands in just blatant ignorance.
 
And Columbus is celebrated in Portugal. Why wouldn't he be? He did a good job for us in diverting Spanish attention away from the Indian Ocean. He has streets and schools named after him in Portugal. Heck, we even named one of our Indian capitals after him!
 
Plus, take I look at this:  http://www.colombo.bz/default.htm
Take it with a bit of salt, some facts are WAY overdeveloped and some connections sound forced. But unlike most things writen previously, this is a serious History project, that like most theories, should not be taken for granted, but accepted as one of many possibilities. 


Edited by Frederick Roger - 29-Jan-2007 at 11:18
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2007 at 09:55

I would generally point to Columbus's voyage. Certainly most of these events are connected in form or another, but we can't say for certain that the alternate course of history (if some of these events would not have happened) would not have led to a roughly similar turn of events in the grand scheme of things. The balance of power in the Eurasian/North African world changed all the time: whether one region or another was dominant is important but not essential.

Columbus' voyage is crucial though because it opened up another world, with its economic resources, new food sources and new opportunities. Just compare it with some of the other events: is a Europe with a large and strong Byzantine Empire really all that different from a Europe with a large and strong Ottoman Empire? Is the balance of power in Eurasia after the collapse of the Mongol Empire in the mid 14th century all that different from the balance of power in the early 13th century, before the Mongol invasions? Sure, there are differences, but in the overall scheme of things, it doesn't really matter whether Europe or China is somewhat stronger - there is still a certain balance along the same old lines... The world is different but it's still the same "size". Columbus' voyage however is a sort of paradigm shift: the world itself got bigger.


This being said, there are other events which deserve a special mention (in no particular order:

1. the schism of 1054, without which the 4th crusade and the weakening of Byzantium would not have happened.
2. the black plague which depopulated Eurasia
3. the Reconquista in Spain and Sicily (another contributing factor to the Renaissance and the voyages of discovery)
4. the great economic boom of Song China, which resulted in the general revival of the economies of all of Eurasia - the 12th century Renaissance in Europe would scarcely been possible without it, with everything which that entails.
5. the muslim invasions of India which altered India's role as an economic and cultural dynamo of the world, and brought India within the Middle-Eastern ann European world.
6. The rise of great trading powers in Western Africa (Ghana, Mali, Songhay) - which fueled Europe and the Middle East with the gold necessary for their economies.
7. The conversion of the Russians to Eastern christianity, and the destruction of Kiev by the Mongols (as opposed to say Moscow). These two events shaped Russia into an agricultural country (as opposed to commercial had Kiev stayed strong), and an Eastern Orthodox as opposed to Muslim. Can you imagine a commercial, muslim Russia?
8. The fall of the Khmer and Majapahit Empires, which relegated the potentially central region of South-East Asia, at the cross-roads of trade, to a region somewhat marginal.
9. The rise of the Incas in Peru: imagine what would have happened if a universal empire did not exist in the Andes at the time of Pizarro's conquest, and if the conquistadors could not have used the conquered peoples' hate against the Incas.
10. The rise of the Aztecs in Mexico: same reasoning as number 9 (just substitute Cortes).
11. The condemnations of Paris in 1277, which eventually resulted in a great shift in European philosophical and scientific thinking, by forcing a move from Aristotlenianism.

What is history but a fable agreed upon?
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  Quote Slick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2007 at 19:04
I'd like to think that many events in the Far East, i.e. in China, Japan & Korea, were as important as those European occurences...
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2007 at 19:22
What a nice thread.

Originally posted by Spartakus

The Fall of the Byzantine Empire.


Ditto, for this reason there was an impetus to find a new trade route to India, hence the discovery of the Americas.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2007 at 22:13
Originally posted by Frederick Roger

...
Solid evidences do not exist, nor could they. However there are several hints. 
 
... 
Writer Jean de Nry, in 1558, was in Brazil. In his book he reports talks with the oldest portuguese settlers, some of which state they were born there, after their fathers had travelled to Brasil since it was discovered 80 years ago. Now, I'm no math expert, but 1558-80=1478. 
There are severall other letters, writings, chronicles that features even more disrepancies in dates. Feel free to surf the web for it, but have in mind that a lot of it is rubbish.   
 
That may be possible. Actually it is known Portugal discoveries were a secret of state, and they started to explore the world a lot earlier than the Spaniards. However, the only thing that I wonder is why Portugal didn't pick for themselves the Americas in the case they knew it?
 
Originally posted by Frederick Roger

...
 
Your previous comparisson of the Portugal/Spain rivalry to the Space Race between USSR and USA is interesting. Just like USSR sent the first man into space, Spain is believed to have set the first foot on the Americas. But the USA (that is, the Portuguese) were the ones who got to the moon (that is, India) first. And pardon me by being rude, but saying the Spanish surpassed the Portuguese in discovering new lands in just blatant ignorance.
 
And Columbus is celebrated in Portugal. Why wouldn't he be? He did a good job for us in diverting Spanish attention away from the Indian Ocean. He has streets and schools named after him in Portugal. Heck, we even named one of our Indian capitals after him!
 
Plus, take I look at this:  http://www.colombo.bz/default.htm
Take it with a bit of salt, some facts are WAY overdeveloped and some connections sound forced. But unlike most things writen previously, this is a serious History project, that like most theories, should not be taken for granted, but accepted as one of many possibilities. 
 
Well, I don't believe Spain's achievements lacked importance, If compared with Portugal, and knowing Spain came second, it is outstanding Spain surpassed that nation in the number of countries which still keep Spanish culture. In fact, almost all the Americas were conquered and explored by Spain, and, as you know, the largest part of the New World "south of the border" is still in the hands of the countries colonized by Spain. In Asia, Phillipines were also conquered by Spain, no matter Portugal almost monopolized the region.
 
However, something that's really remarkable about Portugal is that such a small country lead the way. Portugal has only about 1 million people at the times of discovery; about 1/5 of Spain's or England's population! And still in those days it was a very small population if compared with the 200 millions people of China and a similar number in India, for example. However, with only that number of people they went to conquer the world, and they almost did.
 
Pinguin
 


Edited by pinguin - 29-Jan-2007 at 22:15
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