Turkey Shoots Down Russian Jet Fighter

Rules and regulations...as noted by J.A.W. have been around for a while now...and only the most obdurate would refuse to acknowledge a well known fact of reality.

Adherence to them is another question. As is the acceptance and enforcement.

And as I noted, Poland for example, is a signature and by de facto enforcing agent of the same. The Turks not and obviously not the rebels committing the war crime...for whether 'liked or not'. Proto 1, Art 42, exists and is recognized in NATO...less Turkey.

The history of the 'courtesies-conditions-behaviors' of war...which became the 'rules and conduct of governing' it, is an old story (dating from ancient eras)(Sources including: Biblical-Indian manuscripts-Koran-Medieval Church and Secular) and can be easily researched.

A more recent example was the claimed inadvertent bombing of a hospital in Afghanistan.

Human error led to deadly U.S. strike on Afghan hospital: military

''Some U.S. personnel were suspended and could face disciplinary action after failing to follow U.S. rules of engagement in a war zone, said U.S. Army General John Campbell, who leads international forces in Afghanistan.''...

continues@ http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/25/us-afghanistan-attack-msf-investigation-idUSKBN0TE1XH20151125

Those 'rules of engagement' are directly based on the 'Law of Land warfare' and the UCMJ; in turn in keeping with the protocols of the GC.

Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 28-Nov-2015 at 16:26

Sure, point taken, & Russians were never AFAIR, - known for being 'gentlemanly' in such matters..

Well, according to the rules, you are entitled to shoot the pilot in his plane, while he is bombing you..

Wars & the military most surely do have 'rules', & violation of such rules can be deemed 'crimes'..

Originally posted by Mosquito Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis You both restating the obvious...and I agree. But Turkish allied rebels 'murdering' the pilot was stupid...and a war crime...that did not have to be laid at Turkey's feet. And arguing, or obfuscating, and disregarding it, thru minimization is mere straw. On the other hand this pilot was a member of bomber crew which was bombing Turkish allies. When one sends soldiers to kill other people, he must be aware that his soldiers are also mortal and may die.

Turkish allies were stupid and the fact he was in a mission posture does not minimize the war crime. His target was approved by his higher authority. Therefore his mission, while perhaps odius, was ntl legal based on that authority and their sovereign legality.

His summary execution 'under parachute' was not.

Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis More analysis and opinion may be found here: http://www.wsj.com/article_email/turkey-shoots-down-a-paper-tiger-1448406008-lMyQjAxMTE1MjIwNTUyMDU4Wj http://www.defenddemocracy.org/media-hit/merve-tahiroglu-putins-belligerence-reaches-a-tipping-point/ http://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russo-turkish-tensions-start-russian-air-campaign-0

Thanks for sharing. Especialy the first article is very good.

More analysis and opinion may be found here:

http://www.wsj.com/article_email/turkey-shoots-down-a-paper-tiger-1448406008-lMyQjAxMTE1MjIwNTUyMDU4Wj


http://www.defenddemocracy.org/media-hit/merve-tahiroglu-putins-belligerence-reaches-a-tipping-point/


http://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russo-turkish-tensions-start-russian-air-campaign-0

The Turks did well. Russians understand only the language of power and respects only those who can show that are ready to fight (one of the reasons is that they are not ready to fight;) ). Turkey did show that it must be respected, that Turkey is not Estonia or Latvia which can be easily bullied or theatened by Russia. If you will follow this path sooner or later the Russians will come to you and offer you to warm mutual relations, "friendship and cooperation". They made already almost all their neighbours hostile and the last thing they need is to make now Turkey hostile to them.


Edited by Mosquito - 26-Nov-2015 at 06:47

Updates.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/25/second-russian-pilot-shot-down-turkey-alive-ambassador



As noted the versions differ...but that's expected.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/12015465/Turkey-shoots-down-Russia-jet-live.html


The problem and rather stupid reaction on the part of the rebels was killing the pilot while under parachute. This is murder. As defined by Proto 1, Art 42, of the GC; and agreed upon by 147 states as ratified. With three other states signing in 1977..tho not yet ratified (United States, Iran, and Pakistan).

Turkey remains a noted non signer.

Once landed the rules might vary..as a pilot might become a combatant again or not. The Int RC also subscribes these protos and articles as customary international law whether ratifies or not.

Iirc, all the NATO states, less Turkey, have agreed to enforcement of Art 42.

So have the Russians.

Consequently, it was a stupid act. As it merely exacerbated the potential for further crisis. The rebels would have been much better served by capturing the pilot/nav and treating them accordingly.

Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 25-Nov-2015 at 15:59

I can concur again...the provocation and violations of the Russians into the Turk airspace, as noted above, have been serious. And in all probability, if not a certainty, were deliberate.

Why? agendas at odds by the players.

Stay away from that border if you can. We may occasional be at odds over various things...but I wish you well and no harm.