Turkey Shoots Down Russian Jet Fighter
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Scholarly Pursuits
Forum Name: Current Affairs
Forum Discription: Debates on topical, current World politics
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35913
Printed Date: 27-Apr-2024 at 16:30
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Topic: Turkey Shoots Down Russian Jet Fighter
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Subject: Turkey Shoots Down Russian Jet Fighter
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2015 at 14:25
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''Turkey Shoots Down Russian Jet Fighter ''
'Lions and Tigers and Bears...oh my.' Whether it was in or out... will depend on an objective review. Ntl...the shitt in the pot just got thicker. http://www.wsj.com/articles/turkey-shoots-down-jet-near-syria-border-1448356509 - http://www.wsj.com/articles/turkey-shoots-down-jet-near-syria-border-1448356509 http://www.wsj.com/articles/turkey-shoots-down-jet-near-syria-border-1448356509 |
Replies:
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2015 at 14:35
| unnecessary act or just a decoy?!? |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2015 at 14:47
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I cant say yet my old friend ...sources will vary..and culpability is yet to be determined. Certainly the Turks have an inherent right to defend their airspace. Denials will be manifold.
But this I know..... the 'Russian' agenda is not that of Turkey independently or as a NATO member. or for that matter the Israeli's. Neither is Iran's or Assads. I also know the Turk's have superbly trained airmen and I'm inclined, based on my knowledge of them and especially their training, to believe their version. But mistakes are often made. And without a 'no fly' zone established along that frontier...SHITT happens. amen. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2015 at 14:56
| It could be "shits happen" i hope.Regards C.V.Hope those insane acts will gone soon as it possible. |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2015 at 15:08
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Finally someone did it. Russian airfocrces for over a year are provoking such situations but so far noone in Europe had balls big enough to show them that violating NATO's country airspace is a bad idea. There were countless violations of the airspace of Baltic states.
Even when Russians on the Estonian territory have kidnapped an Estonian secret services officer nobody did say anything. But the Turks are a proud nation and did show Putin that in the Turkish airspace only such foreign military aircrafts can fly which got their permission. Well done. ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2015 at 16:00
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They certainly have a history of provocation; and have no doubted adopted, under Putin, the old style Soviet military aggression to state their agenda.
Europe and the US were warned. And appeasement or deflection will not serve. http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense-news/2015/10/08/turkey-now-theater-west-russia-dispute-over-syria/73567034/ - http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense-news/2015/10/08/turkey-now-theater-west-russia-dispute-over-syria/73567034/ http://http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/7/russian-bombers-penetrated-us-airspace-least-16-ti/ - http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/7/russian-bombers-penetrated-us-airspace-least-16-ti/ http://http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/bully-baltics-kremlin%E2%80%99s-provocations - http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/bully-baltics-kremlin%E2%80%99s-provocations http://http://europe.newsweek.com/russia-violates-finnish-airspace-sixth-time-year-330105 - http://europe.newsweek.com/russia-violates-finnish-airspace-sixth-time-year-330105 http://http://www.ibtimes.com/despite-nato-warnings-russia-has-history-violating-airspace-turkey-baltics-2198519 - http://www.ibtimes.com/despite-nato-warnings-russia-has-history-violating-airspace-turkey-baltics-2198519 ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Aeoli
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2015 at 16:50
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This would happen soon or late. There were no real ceasefire between Assad-Russia and Free Syrian Army-West block. Russia is attacking ISIS and as well as other Anti-Assad Rebels. And for Assad, passing to Syrian Desert and taking ISIS capital Raqqa can not be the first act. Taking second biggest Syrian city Aleppo is more important. This is the fire which can be see miles miles away. In the short term, Russian Jet crossed the Turkish Borders and Turkey pissed off. Just a few days ago, Turkey warned Russia "you are attacking Turkmens in Syria". then now... |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2015 at 19:07
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''And for Assad, passing to Syrian Desert and taking ISIS capital Raqqa can not be the first act. Taking second biggest Syrian city Aleppo is more important. ''
I concur...Tho AQ proxies are hard at work. The agenda for Aleppo is Assad-Russian-Iranian one. The wild Cards? Numerous. Yet ISIS still gains.... as the diversion/strat of conflicting agendas....based on the lack of major American leadership....well serves them... before others. SEE:'' Al Nusrah Front fights Iraqi militia in Aleppo'' http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2015/11/al-nusrah-front-fights-iraqi-militia-in-aleppo.php[/URL] ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Aeoli
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2015 at 01:23
I don't think Aleppo is ruling by one force. By the way, Al Nusrah Front is another type of ISIS. Flag of Al Nusrah  There is an operation in Turkoman land. But still Turkey is divided, some people think that region is controlled by Al Nusrah, some people think that Russia attacking Turkomans  But the point is not about directly Syria, It is about Turkey's border-airspace issue. After the recent airspace violation, Turkey declared that they will protect own airspace aggressively And Russian Jet have been warned 9-10 times  |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2015 at 01:28
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I can concur again...the provocation and violations of the Russians into the Turk airspace, as noted above, have been serious. And in all probability, if not a certainty, were deliberate.
Why? agendas at odds by the players. Stay away from that border if you can. We may occasional be at odds over various things...but I wish you well and no harm. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Aeoli
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2015 at 06:54
This is sarcastic image. Actually Russians are critizing US Similarly, Ukranie-North Of Turkey, Georgia-Northeast of Turkey, Syria-South of Turkey. We saw the Russia acts in there. How should Turkey see the view? Is Russia different? |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2015 at 15:57
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Updates.
http://http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/25/second-russian-pilot-shot-down-turkey-alive-ambassador - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/25/second-russian-pilot-shot-down-turkey-alive-ambassador As noted the versions differ...but that's expected. http://http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/12015465/Turkey-shoots-down-Russia-jet-live.html - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/12015465/Turkey-shoots-down-Russia-jet-live.html The problem and rather stupid reaction on the part of the rebels was killing the pilot while under parachute. This is murder. As defined by Proto 1, Art 42, of the GC; and agreed upon by 147 states as ratified. With three other states signing in 1977..tho not yet ratified (United States, Iran, and Pakistan). Turkey remains a noted non signer. Once landed the rules might vary..as a pilot might become a combatant again or not. The Int RC also subscribes these protos and articles as customary international law whether ratifies or not. Iirc, all the NATO states, less Turkey, have agreed to enforcement of Art 42. So have the Russians. Consequently, it was a stupid act. As it merely exacerbated the potential for further crisis. The rebels would have been much better served by capturing the pilot/nav and treating them accordingly. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Aeoli
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2015 at 01:11
Definately stupid act, actually acts *Shooting down the plane instead of dogfight. That was heavy bombing plane, so Jets can beat it in the dogfight. Turks and Greeks do it very often in the Aegean. *Killing the pilot But Russian act is stupid as much as Turkish side acts. A friend Turkey have been told you a couple of time that he is not happy border violations. Now you are making a operation near a few miles of Turkish border. No contact with Turkish authorities and your plane don't get answer Turkish call. Putin called the issue as stabbing in the back, but they have already turned their back to Turkey. |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2015 at 06:46
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The Turks did well. Russians understand only the language of power and respects only those who can show that are ready to fight (one of the reasons is that they are not ready to fight;) ). Turkey did show that it must be respected, that Turkey is not Estonia or Latvia which can be easily bullied or theatened by Russia. If you will follow this path sooner or later the Russians will come to you and offer you to warm mutual relations, "friendship and cooperation". They made already almost all their neighbours hostile and the last thing they need is to make now Turkey hostile to them.
------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2015 at 13:58
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You both restating the obvious...and I agree.
But Turkish allied rebels 'murdering' the pilot was stupid...and a war crime...that did not have to be laid at Turkey's feet. And arguing, or obfuscating, and disregarding it, thru minimization is mere straw. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2015 at 14:07
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More analysis and opinion may be found here:
http://http://www.wsj.com/article_email/turkey-shoots-down-a-paper-tiger-1448406008-lMyQjAxMTE1MjIwNTUyMDU4Wj - http://www.wsj.com/article_email/turkey-shoots-down-a-paper-tiger-1448406008-lMyQjAxMTE1MjIwNTUyMDU4Wj http://http://www.defenddemocracy.org/media-hit/merve-tahiroglu-putins-belligerence-reaches-a-tipping-point/ - http://www.defenddemocracy.org/media-hit/merve-tahiroglu-putins-belligerence-reaches-a-tipping-point/ http://http://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russo-turkish-tensions-start-russian-air-campaign-0 - http://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russo-turkish-tensions-start-russian-air-campaign-0 ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2015 at 14:50
On the other hand this pilot was a member of bomber crew which was bombing Turkish allies. When one sends soldiers to kill other people, he must be aware that his soldiers are also mortal and may die. ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2015 at 15:01
Thanks for sharing. Especialy the first article is very good. ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2015 at 15:28
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In Poland we also dont tollerate Russian military planes even if it makes Russians angry ;)
https://www.rt.com/news/183800-russia-poland-airspace-reprisal/ - https://www.rt.com/news/183800-russia-poland-airspace-reprisal/ ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2015 at 18:26
Turkish allies were stupid and the fact he was in a mission posture does not minimize the war crime. His target was approved by his higher authority. Therefore his mission, while perhaps odius, was ntl legal based on that authority and their sovereign legality. His summary execution 'under parachute' was not. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2015 at 19:16
Wars have no rules. He was the same target as the people he was bombing. And btw - Iv never heard about international law saying that shooting to enemy soldiers if they are under parachute is not allowed. Pilots kills, so does their victims. He was a rightful target. It is war, there is no place for chivlaric behaviour. In the war ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: J.A.W.
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2015 at 20:21
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Wars & the military most surely do have 'rules', & violation of such rules can be deemed 'crimes'.. Shooting a defenceless pilot in his chute, or once landed - is def' not in the same category as shooting descending/invading paratroops.. ------------- Be Modest In Thyself.. |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2015 at 20:47
It was the common practice during WW2 on the both sides. And btw why do you think that shooting pilot under parachute is worse than bombing city? ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: J.A.W.
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2015 at 21:40
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Well, according to the rules, you are entitled to shoot the pilot in his plane, while he is bombing you.. However, once he is defenceless, due to being in his chute, he is technically your prisoner, & under care. Prisoners are accorded protection under the 'rules', & violators may be subject to 'criminal' sanctions. If he was coming down in his own military area, & likely to be back in combat, that is a wee bit different.. ------------- Be Modest In Thyself.. |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2015 at 22:47
Indeed there are rules about treatment of prisoners of war (which are not worldwide - binding only states which signed some international conventions) but there is nothing about shooting to pilots who are under para's. Until he gets chance to surrender he is a legal target. And in Syria Russian forces dont fight against any state but self organised militias which are not a side of any international conventions not to mention the fact they they are even not representing "one side" of the conflict. ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: J.A.W.
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2015 at 02:18
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Sure, point taken, & Russians were never AFAIR, - known for being 'gentlemanly' in such matters.. However, I am reasonably certain that some harshness will likely be meted out in return.. ..whereas a 'ransom' or some favour - might have been forthcoming instead for a safely held pilot.. It is a fact that a number of Germans in WW2 - found to have summarily killed Allied aircrews who had bailed out of their planes into territory - as prisoners = under their control, were later tried, & executed for their 'crimes'.. Certainly though, aircrews were unlikely to be shot at by regular ground forces while descending unarmed as potential prisoners ( in the West at least) in WW2.. ------------- Be Modest In Thyself.. |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2015 at 03:41
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Shortly said:Put Your vain under the blanket&and let us stop this exodus&fighting soon as it possible together.Repatriation follows next: New Marshal plan for Siria.Why do not all region?Avganistan?Iraq?Fix the Middle East and civilize it.Period. |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2015 at 16:26
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Rules and regulations...as noted by J.A.W. have been around for a while now...and only the most obdurate would refuse to acknowledge a well known fact of reality.
Adherence to them is another question. As is the acceptance and enforcement. And as I noted, Poland for example, is a signature and by de facto enforcing agent of the same. The Turks not and obviously not the rebels committing the war crime...for whether 'liked or not'. Proto 1, Art 42, exists and is recognized in NATO...less Turkey. The history of the 'courtesies-conditions-behaviors' of war...which became the 'rules and conduct of governing' it, is an old story (dating from ancient eras)(Sources including: Biblical-Indian manuscripts-Koran-Medieval Church and Secular) and can be easily researched. A more recent example was the claimed inadvertent bombing of a hospital in Afghanistan. Human error led to deadly U.S. strike on Afghan hospital: military ''Some U.S. personnel were suspended and could face disciplinary action after failing to follow U.S. rules of engagement in a war zone, said U.S. Army General John Campbell, who leads international forces in Afghanistan.''... continues@ http://http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/25/us-afghanistan-attack-msf-investigation-idUSKBN0TE1XH20151125 - http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/25/us-afghanistan-attack-msf-investigation-idUSKBN0TE1XH20151125 Those 'rules of engagement' are directly based on the 'Law of Land warfare' and the UCMJ; in turn in keeping with the protocols of the GC. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2015 at 17:48
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Well, Polish soldiers who killed civilians in Afganistan had accusations based on Polish law, not international.
http://jurist.org/forum/2015/04/milena-serio-war-crimes.php - http://jurist.org/forum/2015/04/milena-serio-war-crimes.php ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2015 at 18:21
Not uncommon...actually quite common; given the parameters of most Status of Forces Agreements (SOF) between a participating nation and a host. In this case; the soldiers in question: ''Warsaw military court acquitted four Polish soldiers of war crimes over the killing of six civilians in Afghanistan in 2007.'' Cc: Mosquito's link. Which further corroborates the general agreement of jurisdiction as agreed upon. Which is generally found in SOF's. This however does not detract that the Poles remain signatures of the afore noted, many times, Proto's and provisions of the GC. Which is after investigation, why their trial was conducted in the first place. This often proves contentious, ie. criminal jurisdiction; among the parties. As has Turkey's refusal to sign the GC. This was, and remains, further exacerbated by a war crime committed by their rebel allies. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Aeoli
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2015 at 00:51
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Russia attack in border violation case (1983) |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2015 at 12:39
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Murder is Murder. Don't straw it. Both while relative given context and era; remain murder.
In this most recent case....the Turks and their inability to control their Rebel allies and their allies act remain responsible for actions commited during military operations...which make it a War Crime. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2015 at 15:42
| Till You solve international law issues crises grows and ISIS kills&cleans people.I really do not know are you collaborators or what?Russia sorry for Your pilot!Shake your hands and finish your mission together. |
Posted By: J.A.W.
Date Posted: 01-Dec-2015 at 02:12
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Yeah, I heard that Putin is going to make more of it, virtually accusing the Islamist Turkish Gov't as being in cahoots with ISIS in an oil/money laundering scheme.. ( & he should know, being in that biz..) ------------- Be Modest In Thyself.. |
Posted By: Aeoli
Date Posted: 01-Dec-2015 at 03:38
1-Turkey didn't attacked Russian Plane just because it was attacking Syrian Rebels. It was border violation. 2-The situation is not ally situation in WW. Turkey is not active part of war against Assad. 3-If Turkey is responsible for action of their Syrian allies ?, don't you think that USA is responsible for that war crime becuase they are ally with Turkey. 4-Unfortunetly, as always be, winners never punish for their war crimes. This destroys all meaning of the point.
I hope, they didn't go after the malpractice issues, maybe this can be reason. Turkey is not enough smart to plan it. It is just sa pawn  |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 01-Dec-2015 at 15:27
************************************************************************ 1. That was never the question. 2. True enough in part...as they have bought ISIS oil....which has helped fund them...and yet released Incirlik again for anti-ISIS ops. Iow. the Turkish government is riding the fence.....again. 3. Absolutely and therein lies the failure of the current administration to lead and to advise. 4. True enough and the Turks, like many others, have committed or aided atrocities...one in particular comes to mind. The great Ataturk, no doubt, is disgusted with your entire performance to date. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Aeoli
Date Posted: 02-Dec-2015 at 01:01
Typical Western Bias: Evil Turk image and magnificient Ataturk figure. Such a cliche. My performance ?
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Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 02-Dec-2015 at 08:59
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Iv been to Turkey many times. First time in 1989 and many times after it. I got friends in Turkey. One of them escaped for two years to Poland.. in 90ties. He didnt want to be conscripted to the army and lived in Poland untill his affairs in Turkey were settled. That time he often lived in my home. When one of the members of this forum - Diplomat - has asked, I took to some extent care for Turkish student in my city who came to university here on ERASMUS stipendium program.
Personaly I got great sympathy for Turkish people and the last thing I could say about the Turks is that they are evil. The Turks are friendly and warm people. However I must admitt that I see the changes which happend there and that Turkey dont live with the ideals of great Kemal Mustafa Attaturk anymore. ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Aeoli
Date Posted: 02-Dec-2015 at 09:22
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This is a map after the last election. Normally, nationalist people share the map of their great counrty. Example Great Greece, which have Istanbul, etc.  Because of the political polarisation, helped to grow macro nationalism in Turkey. People shared plenty of map like this. Most of them just for fuen. But even you couldn't say or just a mean something like that. Worship of Ataturk Idol is a problem in Turkey such as Ultra Nationalism(Kurd-Turk) or Political Islam. |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 02-Dec-2015 at 19:49
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I dont see a problem in nationalism. I always consider it as good and healthy thing for every nation. And I dont think that there are greater nationalists anywhere in the world than in USA which is ultranationalistic.
The problem in Turkey which I can see myself is that Turkish nationalism is somehow merging with religion. The same problem I can also observe in my own country. Turkey and Poland had in the same time two national heroes - Attaturk and Pilsudski. Neither of them wanted their country to become "too religious" and both supported nationalist but secular state. Actually when I think about them I can see more similar things than differences.  ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Aeoli
Date Posted: 03-Dec-2015 at 04:28
I used word ultra nationalism, not nationalism. Example: Ataturk policy, "Peace at Home, Peace in the World" Ultra Nationalism: 
This is the one of the main problem of nationalism and also all right side political. They are very open to negative effects of religion (less tolerans to other etc.)
[/QUOTE] I have no idea about him
 . But he has nice mustache  . I hope I can find some time to ready somthing about him. At least wikipedia. |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 03-Dec-2015 at 05:21
Yes aeoli all the Balkan is infected with ultranationalism. More unfunctional is establishment bigger it is.I have been in Turkey couple of times and you behave as you are center of the universe.My colequtor this summer tried to tell me that everyone has to speak language of native country.Maybe if I have had the interpreting device of Star Trek.I speak English by the way.
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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 03-Dec-2015 at 05:23
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Or I use to think so.
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Posted By: Aeoli
Date Posted: 03-Dec-2015 at 10:37
Not just Balkans, but you are right Balkans is the hot point of it.
I don't think, I got it.
It is calling as adaptation in the West countries, isn't it?
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Posted By: Aeoli
Date Posted: 03-Dec-2015 at 10:38
You are a foreigner for me, -I don't know your nationality, -Your religion -Even where are you living. I just know that you are master of meanings
 |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 03-Dec-2015 at 14:44
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Nobody is perfect,isn't it?
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Posted By: Aeoli
Date Posted: 04-Dec-2015 at 09:31
and also each person has some type of bias. They see the world from that perspective
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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 04-Dec-2015 at 15:43
| Is it a compliment?! a sort of it as I can see.Thanks. |
Posted By: Aeoli
Date Posted: 04-Dec-2015 at 17:21
Not a personel thing. for you, for me, for everone
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