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toyomotor
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Topic: Who really ruled the Golden Horde? Posted: 04-Jan-2014 at 19:46 |
Originally posted by opuslola
Who really ruled the Golden Horde? A Russian Tsar!
Per Fomenko, et,al!
Ron |
The Golden Horde was ruled by Jochi, son of Genghis Khan and Borte. He certainly wasn't a Russian Tzar. While the Golden Horde raided in to Western Europe, the White Horde raided to the East, northern China etc.
The Golden Horde, although a Mongol Federation, was joined by the Kipchak/Cuman forces.
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opuslola
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Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 23:50 |
Who really ruled the Golden Horde? A Russian Tsar!
Per Fomenko, et,al!
Ron
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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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toyomotor
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Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 11:47 |
Originally posted by calvo
The Golden Horde was the longest survivor among the offsprings of the Mongol Empire, and included the area conquered by the Mongol hordes populated by Russians, Kipchaks, Pechnegs, Bulgars, and other nationalities.
Despite Russian sources referred to the Golden Horde ruler collectively as "Tatars". The identity of these "Tatars" clearly transformed from Mongol to Kipchak Turkic over the time of occupation.
Would it be sensible to say then, that it was effectively the Kipchaks who ruled the Golden Horde?
This assumption wouldn't make much sense either, because the Kipchaks, like the Russians, were just another conquered people; and there was no reason why the Mongols would be more sympathetic towards them despite the common steppe origin they shared.
So how did this Mongol-to-Kipchak identity transformation take place?
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The Kipchak Federation, comprised of Kipchaks and Cumans, hired out as mercenaries for various East European states and fought against the Mongol invaders. But later on, as the Mongol Empire expanded westward under the so-called "Golden Horde" the Kipchaks joined the Mongols. The Mongols, ever since Genghis Khan, had permitted people that they would otherwise have conquered to join them in their expansion. This is how the Mongols became so powerful. Similarly, many European Kingdoms surrendered to Genghis Khan without a battle. They were often "taxed" a number of fighting men who joined the Horde. There is no doubt that, over time, there would have been a certain amount of "admixture".
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Sarmat
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Posted: 21-Aug-2008 at 03:58 |
Right, but how it relates to our topic?
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Penelope
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Posted: 21-Aug-2008 at 02:57 |
Well, hopefully we can all agree that the invasion by King Timur, though it didnt destroy the Golden Horde, took the heart out of it. He had crushed Tokhtamysh, annihilated the army, and burned the capital to the ground. The trading centers that were looted by Timur, never recovered, which indeed was a huge loss of income.
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The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations.
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Sarmat
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Posted: 20-Aug-2008 at 15:08 |
Originally posted by aeon
Originally posted by Sarmat12
Batu-khan's father Jochi was given only 4 thousands of Mongolian troops by Genghiz khan. He had to rely on the local Kypchaks. |
Source? |
"Secret History," Rashid ad-Din, Thomas of Split.
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Sarmat
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Posted: 20-Aug-2008 at 15:04 |
Source?
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aeon
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Posted: 20-Aug-2008 at 07:43 |
Originally posted by Sarmat12
Originally posted by aeon
Originally posted by Sarmat12
The famous Russian prince Alexander Nevsky became Batu's "named son" and the "blood brother" of his son Sartak. Sartak also converted to the Russian Orthodox Christianity, according to some sources. |
OK, I see you do take your nonsense from Gumilev... |
Genius, according to Gumilev Sartak was a Nestorian Christian.
And Gumilev was not the only one who wrote about Nevsky's relations with Batu and Sartak. |
That Nevsky was Batu's "named son" and Sartak's "blood brother" is Gumilev's pure invention.
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Sarmat
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Posted: 19-Aug-2008 at 16:26 |
Originally posted by aeon
Originally posted by Sarmat12
The famous Russian prince Alexander Nevsky became Batu's "named son" and the "blood brother" of his son Sartak. Sartak also converted to the Russian Orthodox Christianity, according to some sources. |
OK, I see you do take your nonsense from Gumilev... |
Genius, according to Gumilev Sartak was a Nestorian Christian.
And Gumilev was not the only one who wrote about Nevsky's relations with Batu and Sartak.
Actually, Nevsky was even condemned by some extreme nationalistic "historians" in "treason" and humiliations in from of Tatars.
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aeon
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Posted: 19-Aug-2008 at 16:18 |
Also note that we were talking about Batu's campaign, not Jochi's.
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aeon
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Posted: 19-Aug-2008 at 16:16 |
Originally posted by Sarmat12
This "info" has always been the view of the Russian traditional historiography of the problem. |
Examples?
Originally posted by Sarmat12
Batu-khan's father Jochi was given only 4 thousands of Mongolian troops by Genghiz khan. He had to rely on the local Kypchaks. |
Source?
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Sarmat
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Posted: 19-Aug-2008 at 16:08 |
Originally posted by aeon
Originally posted by Sarmat12
The army of Batu khan during the conquest of Russia on 70% - 80% consisted of Kipchaks. |
Where did you get this info from? Not Gumilev, I hope... |
This "info" has always been the view of the Russian traditional historiography of the problem.
Batu-khan's father Jochi was given only 4 thousands of Mongolian troops by Genghiz khan. He had to rely on the local Kypchaks.
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aeon
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Posted: 19-Aug-2008 at 15:08 |
Originally posted by Sarmat12
The famous Russian prince Alexander Nevsky became Batu's "named son" and the "blood brother" of his son Sartak. Sartak also converted to the Russian Orthodox Christianity, according to some sources. |
OK, I see you do take your nonsense from Gumilev...
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aeon
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Posted: 19-Aug-2008 at 15:06 |
Originally posted by Sarmat12
The army of Batu khan during the conquest of Russia on 70% - 80% consisted of Kipchaks. |
Where did you get this info from? Not Gumilev, I hope...
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Sarmat
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Posted: 23-Jul-2008 at 06:27 |
I think in this article they meant "Kipchak Khanate" in a sense the "Khanate which ruled over Kypchaks" likewise they used another very strange term there "Khanate of China" for Yuan dynasty. But I agree this kind of term "Bloodline of Kipchak Khans" is not very accurate. The article in Wiki is simply written by some lay non-professional people.
I also agree that this statue is pathetic. Batu looks like some Arabic emir from the Middle East
Nevertheless, the above inaccuracies don't neglect the fact that the core population of the Golden Horde consisted of Kipchaks and the Jochi line Mongolian Khans got mixed with Kipchaks fairly quickly.
Edited by Sarmat12 - 23-Jul-2008 at 06:38
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ProMongol
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Posted: 23-Jul-2008 at 05:32 |
Originally posted by Sarmat12
What insults?
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What insults???
pathetic image.
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Bulldog
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Posted: 18-Jul-2008 at 18:20 |
Chuvash is part of the "Oghur" branch of Turkic which also included Khazar, Hunnic, Bulgar.
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calvo
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Posted: 18-Jul-2008 at 16:43 |
I read that Chuvash isn't related to either the Oguz or the Kipchak family of Turkic languages.
Anthropologists say that their language descends directly from that spoken by the ancient Bulgars, who arrived in Eastern Europe as part of the Xiongnu migration; a good few centuries earlier that the Gokturk Empire.
Would it therefore not be too far-fetched to say that the Bulgar language, or modern-day Chuvash, is the language closest to that of the ancient Xiongnu?
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Sarmat
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Posted: 17-Jul-2008 at 19:09 |
It depends. But generally speaking Chuvashs are closer to Russians because of the religion.
Chuvash language in fact is not mutually intelligible with Tatar language.
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calvo
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Posted: 17-Jul-2008 at 18:32 |
Do the Chuvash generally identify more with Russians, for sharing the same religion? Or more with Tatars, Bashkirs, and Kazakhs, for sharing a similiar language?
Do they generally have a strong national consciousness linking them to their Volga Bulgar ancestors as the Volga Tatars have?
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