Who really ruled the Golden Horde?
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Steppe Nomads and Central Asia
Forum Discription: Nomads such as the Scythians, Huns, Turks & Mongols, and kingdoms of Central Asia
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24830
Printed Date: 28-Apr-2024 at 20:20
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Topic: Who really ruled the Golden Horde?
Posted By: calvo
Subject: Who really ruled the Golden Horde?
Date Posted: 09-Jul-2008 at 13:18
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The Golden Horde was the longest survivor among the offsprings of the Mongol Empire, and included the area conquered by the Mongol hordes populated by Russians, Kipchaks, Pechnegs, Bulgars, and other nationalities.
Despite Russian sources referred to the Golden Horde ruler collectively as "Tatars". The identity of these "Tatars" clearly transformed from Mongol to Kipchak Turkic over the time of occupation.
Would it be sensible to say then, that it was effectively the Kipchaks who ruled the Golden Horde?
This assumption wouldn't make much sense either, because the Kipchaks, like the Russians, were just another conquered people; and there was no reason why the Mongols would be more sympathetic towards them despite the common steppe origin they shared.
So how did this Mongol-to-Kipchak identity transformation take place?
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Replies:
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 09-Jul-2008 at 22:11
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The army of Batu khan during the conquest of Russia on 70% - 80% consisted of Kipchaks. Though those Kipchaks were eastern Kipchaks from the modern Kazakhstan. Western Kipchaks from Eastern Europe i.e. Cumans subdued to Mongols only after a long exhausting war. A lot of them actually escaped to Hungary and Balkans.
So, the Golden Horde rulers being a minority among their Kipchak subject very quickly were "Kipchakisized" it was a matter of necessity to attract powerful Kipchak clans. So, first khans of the Golden Horde quickly got close with the noble Kipchak clans by intermarrying with their daughters. Given that there were really not so many Mongols there they really quickly mixed with Kipchaks in new "Tatar" ethnos. All the process was facillitated by the adoption of Islam and abandoning of the indigenous Mongol beliefs. ------------- Σαυρομάτης 
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Posted By: ProMongol
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2008 at 00:14
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Who really ruled the Golden Horde?
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Posted By: ProMongol
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2008 at 00:50
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kipchak_Khanate - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kipchak_Khanate
trying to revise the history and calling Golden Orda as Kipchak khanate is degrading insult to founders of Golden Horde.
Mongols chased kipchaks (cumans/ Polovcy)and reached to Hungary and destroyed them
Even much earlier, in the battle of Kalka, mongols sent messengers with word "-We don't want war against you Russians. We came here to take / destroy our slaves- polovcy (kipchaks) whop were always your enemies. If they are with you, destroy them and take the wealth for yourselves"
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2008 at 02:10
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What insults?
Yes, at the battle of Kalka river there the Mongol army was exclusively Mongol.
However during Batu's invasion "Mongolian" army consisted mainly of Kipchaks. But as I said those were Eastern Kipchaks not Western i.e. Cumans. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: TheMysticNomad
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2008 at 12:10
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The point ProMongol was making was that the top leadership/khans of the Golden Horde were descended from Chingis Khan. There was no Kipchak dynasty ruling the G.H., although the Mongol elite certainly made cultural changes over time. That did not change their ancestry, though. ------------- Unify All Countries! |
Posted By: Evrenosgazi
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2008 at 21:56
The mongols didnt chase the eastern kıpchaks, they subdued them and gave them an important role in the armies. The mongol armies armies were predominantly turkic because there werent enough mongol to conquer the world . This isnt a insult and this does not change the fact that Chingis han was Mongol.
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2008 at 22:31
Nobody doubts that, however the fact is that in a two generations after Batu the rulers of the Golden Horde didn't speak any Mongolian at all. I guess it says something... ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: calvo
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2008 at 19:13
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I heard that many of the royalty of most Tatar nations: Crimean, Kazan, and Siberian Tatars, and even among Kazakhs and Kirguiz, could trace their ascendancy directly to Ghengis Khan. Is this true? Since the identity of the Kazan Tatars have now been revealed as "Volga Bolgar", Are most Crimean Tatars descended directly from Golden Horde Tatars, and therefore Kipchaks?
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2008 at 23:22
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Well actually it's Kazakhs in the first place who have a royal clan which descends from Jochi the son of Genghiskhan.
This clan is called "Tore" and it exists now like was centuries ago. Actually Kazakhs have the tradition of geneologies which is called Shezhire describing the ancestry for several hundred years before.
Every Kazakh is supposed to have such.
But, unfortunately, I don't know about the similar traditions among Tatars. I also haven't heard of modern Tatar families claiming their Genghizkhan ancestry.
About Volga Tatar. It's not such a clear cut. There is actually an indication that most of the Volga Bulgars were virtually exterminated during the Mongol invasion. Volga Bulgar language went extinct for example. Modern Tatars speak Kipchak dialect which was apparently brought with the Eastern Kipchaks who came after Mongol invastion.
However, for some reasons, many representatives of the modern Tatars community prefer to emphasize their Volga Tatar ancestry and lack of any relation to the Mongol-Tatar invaders what so ever.
Most ardent members of this movement advocate for the abolishing of the name Tatar (as the name of the alien invaders) and return to the authentic "Bulgar" name. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: calvo
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2008 at 14:48
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The Chuvash supposedly speak "Volga Bulgar".
To what extent the Mongols exterminated the "Volga Bulgars" is a question of debate.
Didn't the Mongols and Kipchaks become Islamicised through a legacy left by the Volga Bulgars? If this was the case, then Bulgar influence must have been rather strong in the Golden Horde.
I get the feeling that the identification of "Volga Tatar" with "Bulgar" is highly influenced by ones political views.
I've met very few Kazan Tatars in person (3 in total), and all of them tend to trace their origins to the Mongol invasions rather than to Volga Bulgaria.
By taking a peak at various internet forums, I get the impression that Tatars who revindicate their "Islamic" identity are the ones who most identify with the "Bulgar" identity, as the Bulgars created one of the most advanced Islamic civilizations at the time.
Is there much solidarity between Chuvash and Kazan Tatar despite they are off different religion?
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2008 at 16:49
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I would say that the Islamization of Mongols and Kipchaks in the Golden Horde was mainly due to the Middle Eastern and Kwarezmian influence.
In the early years of the Golden Horde, it was not that clear which religion will dominate since naturally besides the former Volga Bulgaria land the horde included many Russian Christian lands. Batu was hoping to create an alliance with the local Russian princes.
The famous Russian prince Alexander Nevsky became Batu's "named son" and the "blood brother" of his son Sartak. Sartak also converted to the Russian Orthodox Christianity, according to some sources.
However, rule of Sartak was not long and it's very likely he was poisoned... Then the party that relied on the eastern Kypchaks took over. Eastern Kypchaks were at least nominally Muslims due to the long contacts with the Muslim states of central Asia.
Also since the Horde incorporated some quite developed land of the former Kwarezmian empire including the city of Urgench, which was actually the biggest city of the Golden Horde, the Islamic influence became even more strong. All these is in the light that Islamic culture was quite developed and influential in the 13th century in general.
About Chuvash and Tatar, it's not that straight forward. Their relations are kind of complicated. Sometimes even the relations between Volga Tatars and Bashkirs (perhaps the closest to them Turkic group) are not that easy... ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: calvo
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2008 at 18:32
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Do the Chuvash generally identify more with Russians, for sharing the same religion? Or more with Tatars, Bashkirs, and Kazakhs, for sharing a similiar language?
Do they generally have a strong national consciousness linking them to their Volga Bulgar ancestors as the Volga Tatars have?
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2008 at 19:09
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It depends. But generally speaking Chuvashs are closer to Russians because of the religion. Chuvash language in fact is not mutually intelligible with Tatar language. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: calvo
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2008 at 16:43
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I read that Chuvash isn't related to either the Oguz or the Kipchak family of Turkic languages.
Anthropologists say that their language descends directly from that spoken by the ancient Bulgars, who arrived in Eastern Europe as part of the Xiongnu migration; a good few centuries earlier that the Gokturk Empire.
Would it therefore not be too far-fetched to say that the Bulgar language, or modern-day Chuvash, is the language closest to that of the ancient Xiongnu?
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2008 at 18:20
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Chuvash is part of the "Oghur" branch of Turkic which also included Khazar, Hunnic, Bulgar. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: ProMongol
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2008 at 05:32
What insults???
I think this kind of pathetic title "Bloodline of the Kipchak Khans" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batu_Khan - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batu_Khan is really insult to Batu Khan who utterly destroyed the Kypchak royal lines.
 pathetic image.
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2008 at 06:27
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I think in this article they meant "Kipchak Khanate" in a sense the "Khanate which ruled over Kypchaks" likewise they used another very strange term there "Khanate of China" for Yuan dynasty. But I agree this kind of term "Bloodline of Kipchak Khans" is not very accurate. The article in Wiki is simply written by some lay non-professional people.
I also agree that this statue is pathetic. Batu looks like some Arabic emir from the Middle East
 Nevertheless, the above inaccuracies don't neglect the fact that the core population of the Golden Horde consisted of Kipchaks and the Jochi line Mongolian Khans got mixed with Kipchaks fairly quickly. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: aeon
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2008 at 15:06
Where did you get this info from? Not Gumilev, I hope...
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Posted By: aeon
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2008 at 15:08
OK, I see you do take your nonsense from Gumilev...
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2008 at 16:08
This "info" has always been the view of the Russian traditional historiography of the problem.
Batu-khan's father Jochi was given only 4 thousands of Mongolian troops by Genghiz khan. He had to rely on the local Kypchaks. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: aeon
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2008 at 16:16
Examples?
Source?
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Posted By: aeon
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2008 at 16:18
| Also note that we were talking about Batu's campaign, not Jochi's. |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2008 at 16:26
Genius, according to Gumilev Sartak was a Nestorian Christian.
And Gumilev was not the only one who wrote about Nevsky's relations with Batu and Sartak.
Actually, Nevsky was even condemned by some extreme nationalistic "historians" in "treason" and humiliations in from of Tatars. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: aeon
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2008 at 07:43
That Nevsky was Batu's "named son" and Sartak's "blood brother" is Gumilev's pure invention.
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2008 at 15:04
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Source? ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2008 at 15:08
"Secret History," Rashid ad-Din, Thomas of Split. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Penelope
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2008 at 02:57
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Well, hopefully we can all agree that the invasion by King Timur, though it didnt destroy the Golden Horde, took the heart out of it. He had crushed Tokhtamysh, annihilated the army, and burned the capital to the ground. The trading centers that were looted by Timur, never recovered, which indeed was a huge loss of income. ------------- The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations. |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2008 at 03:58
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Right, but how it relates to our topic? ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 11:47
The Kipchak Federation, comprised of Kipchaks and Cumans, hired out as mercenaries for various East European states and fought against the Mongol invaders. But later on, as the Mongol Empire expanded westward under the so-called "Golden Horde" the Kipchaks joined the Mongols. The Mongols, ever since Genghis Khan, had permitted people that they would otherwise have conquered to join them in their expansion. This is how the Mongols became so powerful. Similarly, many European Kingdoms surrendered to Genghis Khan without a battle. They were often "taxed" a number of fighting men who joined the Horde. There is no doubt that, over time, there would have been a certain amount of "admixture". |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 23:50
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Who really ruled the Golden Horde? A Russian Tsar!
Per Fomenko, et,al! Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2014 at 19:46
The Golden Horde was ruled by Jochi, son of Genghis Khan and Borte. He certainly wasn't a Russian Tzar. While the Golden Horde raided in to Western Europe, the White Horde raided to the East, northern China etc. The Golden Horde, although a Mongol Federation, was joined by the Kipchak/Cuman forces. |