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Documentray: Stolen Kosovo

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Carpathian Wolf View Drop Down
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Documentray: Stolen Kosovo
    Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 00:27
"Datas from Noel Malcoms;Kosovo a short history.(the translation is mine)"
 
More bias sources? This from the man that endources the war crimes of NATO? Nice try.
 
"You stated smth and your Serbian source was saying smth else,so make up your mind."
 
And other sources state one way or another. My point being is that it was around half/half.
 
"Indeed we won the last war."

Sadly there's another one coming around.
 
"You don’t have a clue.For sure there was a slight change in the population balance in favour of the Albanians during ottomans times as it was a change favoring serbs during Stephan Dushans Serbian empire.And your claims that this was an organized process  are just erroneous Albanians repopulated those few lands that serbs gradually(in 500 years) abandoned, their political an cultural center was in Belgrade so was natural for them to move north."
 
Slight change? 1 POINT 8 PERCENT to what is it today? 96 percent? That is slight? And how do you, an Albanian, get the right to tell Serbs where their cultural center was? It was natural for them to move north when you had people trying to kill you and forced you to move north.
 
"That of the Serbian suffering under the Albanian-Turkish rule is just Serbian invention to justify their later negative attitude against Albanians.

One of their myths, often called history ,is that of the Serbian emigration after the Austrian-Turkish war, from Kosovo, when indeed smth like that never happened in a large scale in Kosova."

Well you just destroyed any sense of objectivity concerning Balkan history. To say the Turks didn't harm or opress their subjects in the Balkans is mindless. My country did not have a single turkish fort north of the Danube and we managed to be only nominal vassals and I know the horrors the Turks did. Let alone a nation fully ruled by the Turks such as Bulgaria, Greece or Serbia.

"Btw here you have the speech made by the Serbian King addressed to the serbuian people,when the Serbian attack in Kosova was ready to start.His motivation are totally different from yours or from those of the modern Serbian nationalist."
 
And what is my motivation? Or the Serbs? And what did he say so much different in his speech?
 
"But he never practiced his own preaches."

Meaningless statement unless you want to go somewhere with it.
 
"Yes but  how do you intend to prove that this actually happened,and when?"
 
I believe it was 1948 when he did it. I don't need to prove it you already agreed that it happened. The only thing debated by us is the scale of which it happened. Since that time until now the figures rosed from about 70-78 percent Albanian depending on the source, to 90-96 Albanian depending on the source. The question still remains who is ethnicly cleansing who.
 
"Leon Trotsky, writing this in January 1913 as an open letter in the (Menshevik) paper Luch ("The Ray") was addressing the "liberal" Russian chauvinist politician Pavel Miliukov:"
 
And how would Leon know one way or another? For example when the Czar came through Bulgaria he stated that the village he visited in had every man with their throat slit, and all the women were naked having been raped and blinded. He even specifies how a girl around 12 years old was sobbing eyeless and wandering through the village aimlessly. Horrible things happened on both sides the question is on which side was it a norm rather then an exception.
 
"Quoting a Serbian soldier whose civil and political conscience had been revolted, Trotsky reported: "
 
Again I don't deny people didn't do bad things. Read above. What this soldier discribes isn't justified to you? After all these Turks and Albanians had lived for centuries on the back of the quasi slavery against the Serbs. But this isn't justifiable to you is it? No because the Serbs aren't your people are they? So they don't matter to you.
 
"Fritz Magnussen, war correspondent for the Danish newspaper Riget"
 
Fritz had no way to calculate the numbers. Was he even there present?
 
"Daily Telegraph"

This account reads like a story book doesn't it. Even on a linguistic level it is not objective. I really find it hard to believe that the Serbs would go through Albania, one of the poorest places on earth, with the sole motive of just killing civilians. It says "Neighbores owing money gave away the Albanians" This suggests there were Serbs in Albania living there. You've got to be kidding me. Get more specific with the source or I can't take it seriously, and I doubt anyone here will either with the few exception of those who already have their minds made up for the same reasons you do.
 
"The Albanische Korrespondenz reported from Trieste on 21 March 1913:"
 
What is this an Austrian report? Oh very objective. Failed again.
 
"On 20 March, the Neue Freie Presse reported:"
 
Okay this is just insane and unprecedent if true. But I really doubt a reporter would be kept around for such an act. It is against the Orthodox religion to do such a thing. I've find this sort of action being taken much more likely from Ustashe Croats.
 
"Personally I have nothing against ,but in that case Albanians in South Serbia should have the right to secede  and join Kosova."
 
The Albanians in south serbia can be their own country which is even conviniently named Albania so no one would get confused. It seems further instructions are needed for some.
 
"

In June NATO and Yugoslavia signed a peace accord outlining troop withdrawal and the return of nearly one million ethnic Albanians as well as another 500,000 displaced within the province. "

 
And if perhaps you can muster the strength to watch the objective documentary (I know you have an aversion to anything remotely objective) you'll see that Albanian refugees starting leaving after the NATO bombs started falling.
 
"The others are official data’s that you can find by your own."

Boring. If we're going to have a debate at least pretend to pose a challenge. I'm not going to search the sources of your "arguements".
 
"That’s simply not true"

Oh but it is. Albanians had their own university, radio, schools, autonomous government and they used it to try to purify Kosovo into an Albanian state. That is why their autonomy was taken away.
 
"Our reap is Independence ,and i can show you photos too but its not my intention.As i said for me a church and a mosque are exactly the same thing."

Reap it until the UN votes. Then we'll see.
 
Oh but please I insist. And how many mosques were destroyed exactly?
 
"But this is is disgusting:"

When you yourself justifies killing people simply because they are from Montenegro or Voivodina and they settle in Kosovo, I wonder how you can claim enough of a stable mind to be treated in any other way.
 
"First of all you have to bring here names.I don’t doubt that actually a English said that but at least have the decency to bring his name."

I did. It seems you are too busy yelling loudly and plugging your ears that you can't even read all of my arguements.
 
"You are speaking without thinking,and you don’t look very neutral.As I said I would like to see some proofs backing your statements:"
 
Maybe i don't look neutral to you, but as long as I can do that I think i'm in the right ballpark.
 
I'd like it if you could read my statements long enough to see the proofs.
 
"Obviously you don’t know the difference between ignorance and stupidity,and as I said I never called you stupid.And spare me the rest please."

When you open your mouth with the former it becomes the latter. Take note of that.
 
NYT article shows history. Serbs and Albanians harmed each other back and forth. But if you really want to take it all the way back, and we can go quite far back, the issue here is Islam vs Christianity. So which one took land from the other? Who was there first? But such questions have no place in modern society. I only brought up history to show how one thing led to another. You bring it up as a pissing match with a backwards mentality of "but see he started it!"
 
This for example is more relevant to our time:
 
EXODUS OF SERBIANS STIRS PROVINCE IN YUGOSLAVIA

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The New York Times, Monday, July 12, 1982
By MARVINE HOWE, Special to the New York Times
DATELINE: PRISTINA, Yugoslavia
Danilo Krstic and his family are hardworking wheat and tobacco farmers, Serbs who get along with their Albanian neighbors.
"You have to love the place where you live to stay on the land here," Marko Krstic, the oldest son, told visitors to the farm at Bec, a few miles from the Albanian border. There have been no serious troubles between Serbians and Albanians in Bec, but Serbs in some of the neighboring villages have reportedly been harassed by Albanians and have packed up and left the region.
The exodus of Serbs is admittedly one of the main problems that the authorities have to contend with in Kosovo, an autonomous province of Yugoslavia inhabited largely by Albanians.
Rioting Brought Awareness
Last year's riots, in which nine people were killed, shocked not only the troubled province of Kosovo but also the entire country into an awareness of the problems of this most backward part of Yugoslavia, which is made up of many ethnic groups.
In June a 43-year-old Serb, Miodrag Saric, was shot and killed by an Albanian neighbor, Ded Krasnici, in a village near Djakovica, 40 miles southwest of Pristina, according to the official Yugoslav press agency Tanyug. It was the second murder of a Serb by an Albanian in Kosovo this year. The dispute reportedly started with a quarrel over damage done to a field belonging to the Saric family.
The local political and security bodies condemned the murder as "a grave criminal act" that could have serious repercussions, according to the press agency. Five members of the Krasnici family have been arrested and investigations are continuing.
The authorities have responded at various levels to the violence in Kosovo, clearly trying to avoid antagonizing the Albanian majority. Besides firm security measures, action has been taken to speed political, educational and economic changes.
Past Errors Acknowledged
Privately, some officials acknowledge that the rise of Albanian nationalism in a society that is based on the principle of the equality of nationalities is the result of past errors - at first neglect and discrimination, and more recently failure to act against divisive forces or even recognize them.
"The [Albanian] nationalists have a two-point platform," according to Becir Hoti, an executive secretary of the Communist Party of Kosovo, "first to establish what they call an ethnically clean Albanian republic and then the merger with Albania to form a greater Albania. "
Mr. Hoti, an Albanian, expressed concern over political pressures that were forcing Serbs to leave Kosovo. "What is important now," he said, "is to establish a climate of security and create confidence."
The migration of Serbs is no ordinary problem becuase Kosovo is the heartland of Serbian history, culture and religion. Serbs have been in this region since the seventh century, long before they founded their own independent dynasty here in 1168.
57,000 Serbs Have Left Region
Some 57,000 Serbs have left Kosovo in the last decade, and the number increased considerably after the riots of March and April last year, according to Vukasin Jokanovic, another executive secretary of the Kosovo party.
Mr. Jokanovic, former president of the Commission on Migration set up after last year's disturbances, said the cause of Serbian migration was "essentially of a political nature."
The commission has given four basic reasons for the departures: social-economic, normal migration from this underdeveloped area, an increasingly adverse social-political climate and direct and indirect pressures.
Mr. Jokanovic, a Serb, called the pressures disturbing and said they included personal insults, damage to Serbian graves and the burning of hay, cutting down wood and other attacks on property to force Serbs to leave.
The 1981 census showed Kosovo with a population of 1,584,558, of whom 77.5 percent were ethnic Albanians, 13.2 percent Serbs and 1.7 percent Montenegrins.
The population in 1971 of 1,243,693 was 73.8 percent Albanian, 18.4 percent Serbian and 2.5 percent Montenegrin.
Ex-Defense Minister Concerned
In a recent visit to Kosovo, Nikola Ljubcic, head of the Serbian Presidency and a former Minister of Defense, expressed particular concern about the continuing exodus of Serbs.
"An ethnically clean Kosovo will always be cause for instability," Mr. Ljubicic said, adding that Yugoslavia "will never give up one foot of her land."
Conversations with Serbs and Albanians in different parts of the province showed that that they were generally troubled about the Serbian migration but did not know what to do about it. Some people described it as "psychological warfare" but were at a loss to explain who was at fault.
In Pristina, the provincial capital, with its skyscrapers and bustling streets, people said they felt relatively secure because the authorities maintained "a close watch." Although the army remains at a distance and has not had to intervene, there is a strong militia presence.
Things appear relaxed on the Corso, Pristina's main street. As in other Yugoslav cities, every night from about 6 to 10 the main thoroughfare is closed to traffic and practically everyone turns out for a stroll, encounters and discussions.
Different Sides of Street
What is special about Pristina is that it has always been Serbs on one side of the street and Albanians on the other. Residents say Albanians have been encroaching on Serbian "territory" since the disturbances.
After the crackdown on Albanian nationalists - about 300 have been sentenced - they are said to have changed tactics, moving to the villages, where there is less security control.
In some mixed communities, there were reports of [Serbian] farmers being pressured to sell their land cheap and of Albanian shopkeepers refusing to sell goods to Serbs.
"We don't want to go because we have a large farm," a Serbian farmer's wife said in a village near Pristina. "Our property hasn't been touched, but there are the insults and the intimidation, so we feel uncomfortable." Several neighbors have left, she said, and her own sons who were planning to build a new house have stopped "to see how things will turn out."
There have been many changes since the riots, but most people in Pristina agree with Mr. Ljubicic that more could be done. The main thrust of the changes is economic. "We're going to change the economic structures with more emphasis on agriculture, the processing industry, small business and handicrafts," Aziz Abrashi, the Economics Minister, said in an interview.
"Ninety-nine percent of the Albanians have no wish to live in Albania," Mr. Abrashi, an Albanian, said, "but they view the rest of Yugoslavia and are aware of the higher living standards. Our young people want the same good life, the nice houses and cars, and they can't get them if they can't get jobs."
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 00:37
Please spare me the wiki Jass. This topic is much too deep then to rely on a fickle website such as wikipedia. I couldn't care less about the squabling of Zionists and Jihadists in the middle east. I hope they both bury each other in piles of bullets.
 
"This really shows how sick you are, I really pity you."
 
Oh yes my apology for not having the education that the Saudi regime offers you. But out here in the real world the crimes of Islam in the Balkans are not forgotten. The towers of skulls built by civilians is not an act of love. Neither is the ritualistic beheading which the world is being reaquainted with again. But perhaps the most disgusting to me is how the Turks took children from the Balkans, brain washed them and send them 10 years later to fight in the towns and country sides of their fore-fathers.
 
"A turk made is much worse then a turk." and "They sold their faith for supper." Discribes the Bosniak/Albanian rulership of the Balkans very well.
 
Myths and Politics
Origin or the Myth of a Tolerant Pluralistic Islamic Society

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE INTERNATIONAL STRATEGIC STUDIES ASSOCIATION
SYMPOSIUM ON THE BALKAN WAR
(Ramada Congress Hotel - Chicago, Illinois)
YUGOSLAVIA: PAST AND PRESENT
Dinner Address delivered on 31 August 1995
BAT YE'OR*
Myths and Politics: Origin or the Myth of a Tolerant Pluralistic Islamic Society
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ladies and gentlemen:
My subject this evening is: Myths and Politics: Origin of the Myth of a Tolerant Pluralistic Islamic Society. I stress the world "Tolerant", which was omitted from the program.
Ten years ago, when I came to America for the launching of my book: THE DHIMMI, JEWS AND CHRISTIANS UNDER ISLAM, I was struck by the inscription on the Archives Building in Washington: "Past is Prologue". I had thought -- at least at the beginning of my research -- that my subject related to a remote past, but I realized that contemporary events were rapidly modernizing this past. Muslim countries where Islamic law -- the SHARI'A -- had been replaced by modern juridic (imposed by the European colonizing powers,) were abandoning the secularizing trend, replacing it with Islamization in numerous sectors of life. This impression of the return of the past became even more acute when I was working on my next book, published in 1991, the English edition which will appear in a few months under the title: THE DECLINE OF EASTERN CHRISTIANITY UNDER ISLAM - 7th TO 20th CENTURY: FROM JIHAD TO DHIMMITUDE (Associated University Presses).
In this study, I tried to analyze the numerous processes that had transformed rich, powerful Christian civilizations into Islamic lands and their long-term effects, which had reduced native Christian majorities into scattered small religious minorities, now slowly disappearing. This complex Islamization process of Christian lands and civilizations on both shores of the Mediterannean - and in Irak and Armenia - I have called: the process of "dhimmitude" and the civilization of those peoples who underwent such transformation, I have named the civilization of "dhimmitude". The indigenous native peoples were Jews and Christians: Orthodox, Catholics, or from other Eastern Christian Churches. They are all referred to by Muslim jurists as the "Peoples of the Book" - the Book being the Bible - and are subjected to the same condition according to Islamic law. They are called dhimmis: protected peoples, because Islamic law protects their life and goods on condition that they submit to Islamic rule. I will not go into details here for this is a very long and complex subject, but in order to understand the Serbian situation one should know that the Serbs were treated during half a millennium just like the other Christian and Jewish DHIMMIS. They participated in this civilization of dhimmitude. It is important to understand that the civilization of dhimmitude grows from two religious institutions: JIHAD and SHARI'A, which establish a particular ideological system that makes it mandatory - during the jihad operation -- to use terror, mass killings, deportation and slavery. And the Serbs -- because I am speaking of them tonight -- did not escape from this fate, which was the same for all the populations around the Mediterannean basin, vanquished by JIHAD. For centuries, the Serbs fought to liberate their land from the laws of JIHAD and of SHARI'A, which had legalized their condition of oppression.
So while I was analyzing and writing about the processes of dhimmitude and the civilization of dhimmitude, while listening to the radio, watching television, reading the newspapers, I had the uncomfortable feeling that the clock was being turned back.
Modern politicians, sophisticated writers -- using phones, planes, computers and all the modern techniques -- seemed to be returning several centuries back, with WIGS or STIFF COLLARS, using exactly the same CORRUPTING ARGUMENTS, the same tortuous short-term politics that had previously contributed to the gradual Islamization of numerous non-Muslim peoples. I had to shake myself in an effort to distinguish the past from the present.
So, is the past always prologue? Are we doomed to remain always prisoners of the same errors? Certainly, if we do not know the past. And this past -- the long and agonizing process of Christian annihilation by the laws of JIHAD and dhimmitude -- is a taboo history, not only in Islamic lands, but above all in the West. It has been buried beneath a myth, fabricated by Western politicians and religious leaders, in order to promote their own national strategic and economic interests.
Curiously, this myth started in Bosnia-Herzegovina in the 19th century. It alleges that Turkish rule over Christians in its European provinces was just and lawful. That the Ottoman regime, being Islamic, was naturally "tolerant" and well disposed toward its Christian subjects; that its justice was fair, and that safety for life and goods was guaranteed to Christians by Islamic laws. Ottoman rule was brandished as the most suitable regime to rule Christians of the Balkans.
This theory was advanced by European politicians in order to safeguard the balance of power in Europe, and in order to block the Russian advance towards the Mediterannean. To justify the maintenance of the Turkish yoke on the Slavs it was portrayed as a model for a multi-ethnical and multi-religious empire. Of course, the reality was totally different! First the Ottoman Empire was created by centuries of JIHAD against Christian populations; consequently the rules of JIHAD, elaborated by Arab-Muslim theologians from the 8th to the 10th centuries, applied to the subjected Christian and Jewish populations of the Turkish Islamic dominions. Those regulations are integrated into the Islamic legislation concerning the non-Muslim vanquished peoples and consequently they present a certain homogeneity throughout the Arab and Turkish empires.
The civilization of dhimmitude in which the Serbs participated had many aspects that evolved with changing political situations. In the 1830s, forced by the European powers, the Ottomans adopted a series of reforms aiming at ending the oppression of the Christians.
In the Serbian regions, the most fanatical opponents of Christian emancipation were the Muslims Bosniacs. They fought against the Christian right to possess lands and, in legal matters, to have equal rights as themselves. They pretended that under the old system that gave them full domination over the Christians, Muslims and Christians had lived for centuries in a convivial fraternity. And this argument is still used today by President Izetbegovic and others. He repeatedly affirms that the 500 years of Christian dhimmitude was a period of peace and religious harmony.
Let us now confront the myth with reality. A systematic enquiry into the condition of the Christians was conducted by British consuls in the Ottoman Empire in the 1860s. Britain was then Turkey's strongest ally. It was in its own interest to see that the oppression of the Christians would be eliminated in order to prevent any Russian or Austrian interference. Consul James Zohrab sent from Bosna-Serai (Sarajevo) a lengthy report, dated July 22, 1860, to his ambassador in Constantinople, Sir Henry Bulwer, in which he analyzed the administration of the provinces of Bosnia and Herzegovina. He stated that from 1463 to 1850 the Bosniac Muslims enjoyed all the privileges of feudalism. During a period of nearly 300 years Christians were subjected to much oppression and cruelty. For them no other law but the caprice of their masters existed.
The DEVSHIRME system is well known. Begun by the Sultan Orkhan (1326-1359), it existed for about 300 years. It consisted of a regular levy of Christian children from the Christian population of the Balkans. These youngsters, aged from fourteen to twenty, were Islamized and enslaved for their army. The periodic levies, which took place in contingents of a thousand, subsequently became annual. To discourage runaways, children were transferred to remote provinces and entrusted to Muslim soldiers who treated them harshly as slaves. Another parallel recruitment system operated. It provided for the levy of Christian children aged six to ten (ICHOGHLANI), reserved for the sultans' palace. Entrusted to eunuchs, they underwent a tyrannical training for fourteen years. (A system of enslaving Black Christian and Animist children, similar to the DEVSHIRME existed in Sudan as is shown from documents to be published in my book. A sort of DEVSHIRME system still exists today in Sudan and has been described and denounced by the United Nations Special Report on Sudan and in a recent article last Friday's TIMES OF LONDON.) In 1850, the Bosniac Muslims opposed the authority of the Sultan and the reforms, but were defeated by the Sultan's army aided by the Christians who hoped that their position would thereby improve, "but they hardly benefited." Moreover, despite their assistance to the sultan's army, Christians were disarmed, while the Muslims who fought the sultan could retain weapons. Christians remained oppressed as before, Consul Zobrab writes about the reforms: "I can safely say, they practically remain a dead letter".
Discussing the impunity granted to the Muslims by the sultan, Zohrab wrote:
"This impunity, while it does not extend to permitting the Christians to be treated as they formerly were treated, is so far unbearable and unjust in that it permits the Muslims to despoil them with heavy exactions. Under false accusations imprisonments are of daily occurrence. A Christian has but a small chance of exculpating himself when his opponent is a Muslim."
"Christians are now permitted to possess real property, but the obstacles which they meet with when they attempt to acquire it are so many and vexatious that very few have as yet dared to brave them. Although a Christian can buy land and take possession it is when he has got his land into order [...] that the Christian feels the helplessness of his position and the insincerity of the Government. [Under any pretext] "the Christian is in nineteen cases out of twenty dispossessed, and he may then deem himself fortunate if he gets back the price he gave."
Commenting on this situation, the consul writes:
"Such being, generally speaking, the course pursued by the Government towards the Christians in the capital of the province Sarajevo where the Consular Agents of the different Powers reside and can exercise some degree of control, it may easily be guessed to what extend the Christians, in the remoter districts, suffer who are governed by Mudirs generally fanatical."
He continues:
"Christian evidence in the Medjlises (tribunal) as a rule is refused. Knowing this, the Christians generally come forward prepared with Mussulman witnesses (...), twenty years ago, it is true, they had no laws beyond the caprice of their landlords."
"Cases of oppression are frequently the result of Mussulman fanaticism, but for these the Government must be held responsible, for if offenders were punished, oppression would of necessity became rare."
In the spring of 1861 the sultan announced new reforms in Herzegovina, promising among other things freedom to build churches, the use of church bells and the opportunity for Christians to acquire land.
Commenting on this, Consul William Holmes in Bosna-Serai writes to Ambassador Sir Henry Bulwer that those promises rarely applied. He mentions that the Serbs, the biggest community were refused the right to build a church in Bosna-Serai. Concerning the right to buy land, he writes; "Every possible obstacle is still thrown in the way of the purchase of lands by Christians, and very often after they have succeeded in purchasing and improving land, it is no secret that on one unjust pretext or another, it has been taken from them."
Consul Longworth writes, from Belgrade on 1860 that by its Edicts the "Government may hasten such a reform but I question very much whether more evil than good will not arise from proclaiming a social equality which is, in the present stage of things and relations of society, morally impossible."
The biggest problem, in fact, was the refusal to accept either Christian or Jewish testimony in Islamic tribunals.
Consul Longworth comments on "the lax and vicious principle acted upon in the Mussulman Courts, where, as the only means of securing justice to Christians, Mussulman false witnesses are permitted to give evidence on their behalf."
The situation didn't change, and in 1875 the Grand Vizier Mahmud Pasha admitted to the British Ambassador in Constantinople, Sir Henry Elliot, the "impossibility of allowing Christian testimony at courts of justice in Bosnia." Thus, the Ambassador noted: "The professed equality of Christians and Mussulmans is, however, so illusory so long as this distinction is maintained."
This juridical situation had serious consequences due to the system of justice, as he explained: "This is a point [the refusal of testimony] of much importance to the Christians, for, as the religious courts neither admit documentary nor written evidence, nor receive Christian evidence, they could hope for little justice from them."
The difficulty of imposing reforms in such a vast empire provoked this disillusioned comment, from Sir Francis, consul-general, judge at the British Consular Court in 1875 Constantinopole: "Indeed, the modern perversion of the Oriental idea of justice is a concession to a suitor through grace and favor, and not the declaration of a right, on principles of law, and in pursuance of equity."
From Consul Blunt writing from Pristina on 14 July 1860 to Ambassador Bulwer, we learn about the situation in the province of Macedonia: "[...] For a long time the province of Uscup [Skopje, Macedonia] has been a prey to brigandage: [...] Christian churches and monasteries, towns and inhabitants, are now pillaged, massacred, and burnt by Albanian hordes as used to be done ten years ago."
"The Christians are not allowed to carry arms. This, considering the want of a good police, exposes them the more to attacks from brigands." "Christian evidence in law suits between a Mussulman and a non-Mussulman is not admitted in the Local Courts."
Ten years before he said: "Churches were not allowed to be built; and one can judge of the measure of toleration practiced at that time by having had to creep under doors scarcely four feet high. It was an offense to smoke and ride before a Turk; to cross his path, or not stand up before him, was equally wrong." [...]
Fifteen years later, in another report from Bosna-Serai, dated December 30, 1875, from consul Edward Freeman, we learn that the Bosnian Muslims had sent a petition to the sultan stating that before the reforms, "they lived as brother with the Christian population. In fact, wrote the Consul, "their aim appears to reduce the Christians to their former ancient state of serfdom." So once again we go back to the myth. When reading the literature of the time, we see that the obstruction to Serbian, Greek and other Christian liberation movement was rooted in two main arguments:
1) Christian DHIMMIS are congenitally unfitted for independence and self-government. They should therefore remain under the Islamic rule.
2) The Ottoman rule is a perfect model for a multi-religious and multi-ethnical society.
Indeed these are theological Islamic arguments that justify the JIHAD since all non-Muslim people should not retain political independence because their laws are evil and must be eventually replaced by the Islamic rule. We find the same reasoning in the Palestinian 1988 Covenant of the Hamas. Those arguments are very common in the theological and legal literature and are exposed by modern Islamists.
Collusion
The myth didn't die with the collapse of the Turkish Empire after World War I. Rather it took another form: that of the National Arab Movement, which promoted an Arab society where Christians and Muslims would live in perfect harmony. Once again, this was the fabrication of European politicians, writers and clergyman. And in the same way as the myth of the Ottoman political paradise was created to block the independence of the Balkan nations, so the Arab multi-religious fraternity was an argument to destroy the national liberation of non-Arab peoples of the Middle East (Kurds, Armenians, Assyrians, Maronites and Zionists.)
And although from the beginning of this century until the 1930s, a stream of Christian refugees were fleeing massacres and genocide on the roads of Turkey, Irak and Syria, the myth continued to flourish, sustained mostly by Arab writers and clergyman. After the Israelis had succeeded in liberating their land from the laws of JIHAD and DHIMMITUDE, the myth reappeared in the form of a multi-cultural and multi-religious fraternal Palestine which had to replace the State of Israel (Cf. Arafat's 1975 UN speech). Its pernicious effects led to the destruction of the Christians in Lebanon. One might have thought that the myth would end there.
But suddenly the recent crisis in Yugoslavia offered a new chance for its reincarnation in a multi-religious Muslim Bosnian state. What a chance! A Muslim state again in the heartland of Europe. And we know the rest, the sufferings, the miseries, the trials of the war that this myth once again brought in its wake.
To conclude, I would like to say a few last words. The civilization of dhimmitude does not develop all at once. It is a long process that involves many elements and a specific conditioning. It happens when peoples replace history by myths, when they fight to uphold these destructive myths, more then their own values because they are confused by having transformed lies into truth. They hold to those myths as if they were the only guarantee of their survival, when, in fact, they are the path to destruction. Terrorized by the evidence and teaching of history, those peoples preferred to destroy it rather than to face it. They replace history with childish tales, thus living in amnesia.
=== The end of the speech
* About the author:
Madam BAT YE'OR, author and scholar, born in Egypt. A British citizen living in Switzerland, she is a specialist on the DHIMMIS and "DHIMMITUDE" (a new word which she coined), and the subject of her pioneer research for the past twenty-five years. Author, since 1971, of numerous articles on non-Muslims under Islamic rule, she broke new ground with her book:
THE DHIMMI: JEWS & CHRISTIANS UNDER ISLAM, preface by Jacques Ellul (Fairleigh Dickinson University Press & Associated University Presses, Cranbury, N.J./London/Toronto, 1985), Enlarged English edition.
Her second major work...
LES CHRETIENTES D'ORIENT ENTRE JIHAD ET DHIMMITUDE: VIIe-XXe siecle, preface de Jacques Ellul (Paris, La Cerf, 1991) (English edition published by AUP in early 1996, English title: THE DECLINE OF EASTERN CHRISTIANITY UNDER ISLAM; 7TH TO 20TH CENTURY. FROM JIHAD TO DHIMMITUDE) - Associated University Press, 440 Forsgate Drive, Canbury, New Jersey 08512, tel: (609) 655-4770, 520 pages, cloth and paper cover option... ...established the author's reputation as an innovative thinker in a virgin field of research. The significance of her latest book in French JUIFS ET CHRETIENS SOUS L'ISLAM: LES DHIMMIS FACE AU DEFI INTEGRISTE (Paris, Berg international, 1994) is revealed by its subtitle: The Dhimmis faced with the challenge of Fundamentalism. Here, she covers the period of Turkish rule in the Balkans and analyses contemporary events. An English edition is scheduled for 1997.
======== End - about the author =========
Excerpt from author's interview for daily Politika....
Politika: What is your experience in relation to Dhimmitude having in mind the fact that your are a Jew born in Egypt?
Madam Bat Ye'Or: "I was witness of expulsion of the Jewish community from Egypt (85,000 persons). It was done in the ambient of hatred, terrorism, pillage and robbery. It started in 1945 and had its peak in 1948 and 1956. Anyhow, this is common experience of Jews in the entire Arab world. There used to be some 1,000,000 Jews there. Today only 10,000 remained. I wrote about it in one of my books. Contacts with Arab Christians helped me a lot in my strive to widen the understanding of the problem..."
========= End of the excerpt
NOTE:
To learn more on how the myth of the Muslim tolerance occurred, please open any encyclopedia and look for "EASTERN QUESTION".
To simplify it: The super power of the 19th century, Great Britain, waged a "space game" with the other potential super power: Russia. Where interests of the two crossed was - Balkans (then under Turkish occupation).
It would be most natural that Russia should have the influence in the the area. Most of the subdued Balkan nations (Serbs, Greeks, Rumanians, Bulgarians) are Eastern Orthodox - like Russians. That did not fit British interests. That is how Britain allied itself with Turkey and invented the myth of the Muslim tolerance.
When Turks cut throats, raped women and steal children of Balkan Christians - it was OK for the Brits - it was an expression of tolerance... As long as Russians do not get influence in the Balkans.
The history repeats itself. Super powers play again with the destiny of the Balkan peoples. They play with fire. 
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 00:39
I'm sure they didn't see it as preserving the idea to opress. More like having their rightful spot as Muslims among infidels in society. All of the sudden after hundreds of years of opressing their Christian subjects, they now had to live amongst them. I'd have a pretty heavy conscience too.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 00:47
It has been some 60 years at this point. Two generations passed. More like protecting their own families. And what makes you think that they have been oppressing Christians for several hundred years? So basically every single Muslim in the Balkans ever only thought of opressing non-Muslims? You are funny. 
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 00:53
Friedrich Griesendorf, who died in 1958, was a very educated man. He was at one time a court clergyman for the German Kaiser, Wilhelm II. After World War II, he was a pastor in the Eversburg church parish where a camp of Serbian prisoners of war was located. Before retiring, he dedicated these lines to his German parishioners:

"Our country lost the war. The English, Americans and Russians won. Maybe they had much better equipment, larger armies, better leadership. In reality, it was an explicit material victory. They took the victory. However, here among us is one nation that won another more beautiful victory, a victory of the soul, a victory of the heart and honesty, a victory of peace and Christian love. THEY ARE THE SERBS. We knew them earlier, some a little and some not at all. But we all knew what we did in their homeland. We killed hundreds of the Serbs who defended their country for one of our soldiers who represented the occupier -- the oppressor. And not only that, we looked favorably when others shot at Serbs from all sides; The Croatians, the Italians, Albanians, Bulgarians and Hungarians. Yet we knew that among us in the prisoner of war camps were 5,000 Serbian officers, who earlier were the elite of the society and, who now resembled living skeletons, exhausted and spent from hunger. We knew that among the Serbs smoldered the belief 'He who does not revenge is not sanctified'."
"We are truly afraid of the revenge by these Serbian martyrs. We were afraid that after our capitulation they would do what we did to them. We imagined murder, plunder, rape, demolition and destruction of our homes. However, what happened? When the barbed wires were torn down and 5,000 Serbian skeletons found themselves free in our midst, those skeletons caressed our children. Only now can we understand why our greatest poet, Goethe, studied the Serbian language. Only now can we comprehend why the last word for Bismark, on his deathbed, was -- 'SERBIA.' That kind of victory is more sublime than a material victory. It seems to me that only the Serbs could win such a victory, being brought up in their St. Sava's spirit and epic poetry, which our Goethe loved so much. This victory will live for centuries in the souls of us Germans. I want to dedicate my last clergyman's sermon to that victory and the Serbs who won it."

Friedrick Griesendorf.
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 00:58
"It has been some 60 years at this point. Two generations passed."

If my family had been opressing (on the side of the oppressors even) for hundreds of years i'd worry about my saftey. You can look at America even in the white/black relations concerning slavery.
 
"And what makes you think that they have been oppressing Christians for several hundred years?"

No doesn't make me think. I know. Islam was an ugly thing in the Balkans, and most of the people who converted simply did it for the benefits they had under Turkish rule.
 
"So basically every single Muslim in the Balkans ever only thought of opressing non-Muslims?"

Did I say that?
 
"You are funny. "

Your strawmen arguements are funny as well as your inability to make an actual point concerning the discussion. So you are left to make a ludacris arguement and then go on defeating it yourself. Please this isn't worth anyone's time. Don't put words in my mouth.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 01:01
Islam was an ugly thing in the Balkans Dead, oppressing - ok... so perpetual opression for 500 years. That sounds amusing. 
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 01:15
Perhaps because your ancestors lived hand in hand with the Ottomans you can afford to make such jokes. Since I grew up and studied the medieval history of my people where we managed to hold off this massive seemingly unbeatable Empire (among others) by the skin of our teeth I can not afford to make those jokes.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 01:36
Maybe minding to explain who exactly your people are? Bosnians as an example actually shifted in demographics due to Ottoman Wars, and I am mostly talking about the Muslim Bosniaks. From an absolute majority by the 1600s to fifty per cent during the Austro-Ottoman wars, and back up to a majority up until the massive emigrations following Austrian rule post 1870s.

As far as my ancestors... well I have 3 major ones in my family. Direct Bosnian,(both) Turkish(mostly Mothers), and Serbian ancestry(Fathers) side. And Medieval studies is actually what I have been pursuing.


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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 02:18
Isn't the name obvious? Romania.
 
Anyone living in Bosnia is a Bosnian.
 
"SERBIAN SETLEMENT IN BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA BEGAN IN THE SEVENTH CENTURY A.D."

Encyclopedia Britannica, Edition 1971
Volume 3, page 983
---------------------------------------------------
 

"THE EMPEROR CONSTANTINE VII PORPHYROGENITUS (reigned 913-957) REFFERED TO BOSNIA AS PART OF *THE LAND OF THE SERBS*."

Encyclopedia Britannica, Edition 1990, Volume 29, Macropedia, page 1098
 
------------------------------------------------
 
"THE LARGEST SINGLE NATIONAL ELEMENT [IN BOSNIA] IS THE ORTHODOX SERBS"

Collier's Encyclopedia, Edition 1956, page 661
 
------------------------
 
So I don't know where you got the idea that the Muslims were ever an "absolute majority".
 
Perhaps this explains how they became a majority:
 
"In RECORD TIME, during the spring of 1943,... TWENTY THOUSAND BOSNIAN MUSLIM MEN VOLUNTEER... INTO WAFFEN-SS...
THEY PARTICIPATED IN THE MASSACRE OF CIVILIANS IN BOSNIA and VOLUNTEERED TO JOIN IN THE HUNT FOR JEWS IN CROATIA..."

Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, Edition 1990, Volume 2, Pages 706 and 707,
entry "Husseini, Hajj Amin Al"
 
-----------------------------------------
 
"...IN BOSNIA...THE CROATIAN [AND MUSLIM] FASCISTS BEGAN A MASSACRE OF SERBS WHICH, IN THE WHOLE ANNALS OF WORLD WAR II, WAS SURPASSED FOR SAVAGERY ONLY BY THE MASS EXTERMINATION OF POLISH JEWS."

Encyclopedia Britannica from 1971 to 1986 (entry: Yugoslavia, World War II)
 
================
 
The notion of a "Bosniak" came into be when certain Serbs and perhaps even Croatians converted to Islam for the benefits the Ottoman Turks provided for fellow Muslims. That would be a nice way of putting it. There never was a seperate ethnic group known as Bosniaks. When the Serbs migrated into the Balkans there was no Bosniaks. Neither when the Croats followed close behind.
 
So what is a Bosniak?
 
Encyclopedia Britannica, eleventh edition (year: 1910 (!)), Volume IV, page 281,
entry "Bosnia and Herzegovina", subentry (#10)
Population and National Characteristics
(quote:)
In 1895 the population, which tends to increase slowly... numbered 1,568,092. The alien element is small, consisting chiefly of Austro-Hungarians, gipsies, Italians and Jews. Spanish is a common language of the Jews, whose ancestors fled hither, during the 16th century, to escape the Inquisition.
The natives are officialy described as Bosniaks, but classify themselves according to religion. Thus the Roman Catholics PREFER the name of CROATS, Hrvats or Latins; the Orthodox, of SERBS; THE MOSLEMS, OF TURKS.
All alike belong to the Serbo-Croatian branch of the Slavonic race; and all speak a language almost identical to Serbian, though written by the Roman Catholics in Latin instead of Cyrillic letters.
TO AVOID OFFENDING EITHER "SERBS" OR "CROATS," IT IS OFFICIALLY DESIGNATED "BOSNITCH." ... The Bosnians or Bosniaks resemble their Serbian kindfolk in both appearance and character. They have the same love for poetry, music and romance; the same *intense* pride in their race and history; many of the same superstitions and customs. The Christians retain the Serbian costume, modified in detail, as the occasional use of the turban or fez. The "Turkish" women have in some districts abandoned the veil; but in others they even cover the eyes when they leave home.
(end quote)
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 02:22
O yeah I forgot I don't exist. 
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  Quote vranakonti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 03:12

More bias sources? This from the man that endources the war crimes of NATO? Nice try.

 

Your try wasn’t even nice. Malcom was quoting an important Serbian official and Yugoslav archives.

 

 

And other sources state one way or another. My point being is that it was around half/half.

 

Its more honorable if you just admit your mistake.

 

 

Slight change? 1 POINT 8 PERCENT to what is it today? 96 percent? That is slight? And how do you, an Albanian, get the right to tell Serbs where their cultural center was? It was natural for them to move north when you had people trying to kill you and forced you to move north.

 

Their cultural original center was in Raskia, that after the Serbian invasion,Kosova,and from the ottoman invasion till the present times Belgrade bacame their only main center.I don’t think any right is need to state some obvious facts.

1.8 %,are you serious?

 

 

 Well you just destroyed any sense of objectivity concerning Balkan history. To say the Turks didn't harm or opress their subjects in the Balkans is mindless. My country did not have a single turkish fort north of the Danube and we managed to be only nominal vassals and I know the horrors the Turks did. Let alone a nation fully ruled by the Turks such as Bulgaria, Greece or Serbia.

 

You forgot to put Albania in those nations,i assume you just forgot it,since you are not biased,right?

 

And what is my motivation? Or the Serbs? And what did he say so much different in his speech?

Meaningless statement unless you want to go somewhere with it.

 

He clearly says that he is going to liberate Albanians as well, because they were suffering together with Serbs. Instead you are saying that Serbs suffered under the Albanians.If they “suffered” a little bit  more it was just because of their different religion and it wasn’t Albanians fault.

However all this thing of orthodox suffering under the muslims is just an overestimation, and all those churches all around kosova are the best proof of it. Even the famous church of Decani was under the protection of the Albanian Moslem voivods.

 

Another interesting  note about his speech:

 

 By the grace of God, I have therefore ordered my brave army to join in the Holy War to free our brethren and to ensure a better future.
 In Old Serbia, my army will meet not only upon Christian Serbs, but also upon Moslem Serbs, who are equally dear to us, and in addition to them, upon Christian and Moslem Albanians with whom our people have shared joy and sorrow for
thirteen centuries now. To all of them we bring freedom, brotherhood and equality."

 

Thirteen centuries??So the Serbian King his saying that Serbs and Albanians were living together for 13 centuries, exactly the time when Serbs came in the Balkans.

 

 
I believe it was 1948 when he did it. I don't need to prove it you already agreed that it happened. The only thing debated by us is the scale of which it happened. Since that time until now the figures rosed from about 70-78 percent Albanian depending on the source, to 90-96 Albanian depending on the source. The question still remains who is ethnicly cleansing who.

 

I agreed that we had close relation for almost 4 years with yugoslavia,but I never said there was an Albanian emigration.We had close relation with USSR and China but we never emigrated there aswell.

 

 

And how would Leon know one way or another? For example when the Czar came through Bulgaria he stated that the village he visited in had every man with their throat slit, and all the women were naked having been raped and blinded. He even specifies how a girl around 12 years old was sobbing eyeless and wandering through the village aimlessly. Horrible things happened on both sides the question is on which side was it a norm rather then an exception.

 

He was a war correspondent in the Balkans so he was well informed.During the Balkans wars horrible crimes happened on all sides, except for the Albanian side,that wasn’t even a side ,but just civilians at the mercy of foreign armies.

 

Again I don't deny people didn't do bad things. Read above. What this soldier discribes isn't justified to you? After all these Turks and Albanians had lived for centuries on the back of the quasi slavery against the Serbs. But this isn't justifiable to you is it? No because the Serbs aren't your people are they? So they don't matter to you.

 

You really think that Turks only worry was to kill serbs all day long.They did it at the beginning when the Balkans nations weren’t under their full control, but not only with Serbs but with every people they fought,but certainly this was everything but a norm during their reign.

 

 

Fritz had no way to calculate the numbers. Was he even there present?

 

The daily telegraph account states the same

 

 

"Daily Telegraph"

This account reads like a story book doesn't it. Even on a linguistic level it is not objective. I really find it hard to believe that the Serbs would go through Albania, one of the poorest places on earth, with the sole motive of just killing civilians. It says "Neighbores owing money gave away the Albanians" This suggests there were Serbs in Albania living there. You've got to be kidding me. Get more specific with the source or I can't take it seriously, and I doubt anyone here will either with the few exception of those who already have their minds made up for the same reasons you do.

 

I never said that those lands were 100% Albanian,the same as today there was a Serbian minority.And another thing, go inform your self about the Kosovar Albanian’s, and Kosova in general,they were one of the welthiest regions of the ottoman empire.

Serbs tried to annex not only Kosova but all of northern Albania including the sea port of Durres.Indeed they invaded all these lands during the 1913 offensive but were forced to withdraw thanks to the international pressure.

 

 

 

Okay this is just insane and unprecedent if true. But I really doubt a reporter would be kept around for such an act. It is against the Orthodox religion to do such a thing. I've find this sort of action being taken much more likely from Ustashe Croats.

 

And why only this is insane?Because the victims were Christians? 

 

The Albanians in south serbia can be their own country which is even conviniently named Albania so no one would get confused. It seems further instructions are needed for some.

 

Yeah whatever.

 

And if perhaps you can muster the strength to watch the objective documentary (I know you have an aversion to anything remotely objective) you'll see that Albanian refugees starting leaving after the NATO bombs started falling.

 

 

A documentary considered biased, by its own sponsor and producer (The checz TV),can’t become objective just because you say so.

 

 

Oh but it is. Albanians had their own university, radio, schools, autonomous government and they used it to try to purify Kosovo into an Albanian state. That is why their autonomy was taken away.

 

How they did purify Kosova anyway? Ethnically motivated crimes were almost inexistent when Kosova had its autonomy .Serbs were losing the control of the province,that’s right and they were just pissed of having Albanian ,communist leader, mayors ,doctors , and policemen.But you can see it by your own now,their paranoia just made true their worst nightmare, the independence of Kosova.    

 

 

 

 

Oh but please I insist. And how many mosques were destroyed exactly?

 

 

Architectural Heritage in Kosovo: A Post-War Report
              By Andrew Herscher and Andras Riedlmayer
 
The authors:
 
    Andrew Herscher is an architect, PhD candidate in architectural
    history and theory at Harvard University, and co-director of the
    Kosovo Cultural Heritage Project.
 
    Andras J. Riedlmayer directs the Aga Khan Program's
    Documentation Center for Islamic Art and Architecture at
    Harvard's Fine Arts Library and is co-director of the Kosovo
    Cultural Heritage Project
 
Andras J. Riedlmayer
Fine Arts Library
Harvard University
 
 
>From the spring of 1998 until the summer of 1999, Kosovo was the
scene of armed conflict and savage "ethnic cleansing." Thousands of
the region's Kosovar Albanian inhabitants were killed and nearly a
million were driven from their homes. Less well known than the human
tragedy is the fate of Kosovo's rich cultural heritage
 
Serbs blamed the Nato bombing of course:
 
Among the monuments and sites reported to have been destroyed or seriously
damaged by the air strikes: the Gracanica monastery near Prishtina;
the Decani monastery; the Pec Patriarchate complex; the Church of
the Virgin Ljeviska and the Sinan Pasha Mosque in Prizren; the
Prizren League Museum; the Hadum Mosque complex in Gjakova (Serbian:
Djakovica); the historic bazaars in Gjakova and Pec (Albanian:
Peja); the Roman Catholic church of St. Anthony in Gjakova; and two
old Ottoman bridges, Ura e Terzive (Terzijski most) and Ura e
Tabakeve (Tabacki most), near Gjakova. These allegations were given
wide publicity on Internet web sites, in the news media, in
professional forums (including the US/ICOMOS Newsletter), and in two
white books issued by the Yugoslav government.[1] On June 1, 1999,
Yugoslavia's ambassador to UNESCO announced that the old parts of
the Kosovo city of Prizren and the provincial capital Prishtina had
been completely destroyed by NATO bombing.[2]
 
Meanwhile, eyewitness accounts by Kosovar refugees also spoke of
cultural destruction. In a survey of Kosovar refugee heads of
households in camps in Albania and Macedonia, carried out in
April-May 1999 by the NGO Physicians for Human Rights, nearly half
(47 percent) of the respondents reported seeing mosques destroyed by
Serb forces before they left Kosovo.[3]
 
Thus, we made it our goal to ascertain, insofar as possible, the
condition of all cultural and religious monuments and institutions,
whether listed or not, that were reported to have been damaged.
Covering both wartime and post-war destruction, the survey was
primarily a damage assessment. Limitations on our time and resources
and the difficulties of access to some sites prevented us from
making a more detailed study of each monument.
 
Our survey database has 268 entries for architectural monuments,
representing sites we visited during our fieldwork in October 1999
 
We found that out of the four well-preserved historic urban centres
in Kosovo three old towns--Pec, Gjakova, Vushtrri (Serbian:
Vucitrn)--had suffered severe devastation. Allegations by the
Yugoslav authorities notwithstanding, it was evident both from the
nature of the damage we saw and from the statements of eyewitnesses
we interviewed that this destruction was not the result of aerial
bombardment.
 
Albanian historical buildings
 
The historic city of Prizren survived the war without
significant damage to any of its monuments, except for the Museum of
the 1878 Albanian League of Prizren, which was burned down on March
28, 1999, by Serbian police using rifle-propelled grenades
 
War damage in the capital was largely
limited to a handful of modern government buildings, including the
Serbian police headquarters and the post and telecommunications
centre, which were hit by NATO air strikes; one 16th-c. neighborhood
mosque and a number of Albanian houses and shops were burned by
Serbian forces during the war.
 
Other allegations of NATO bombing damage to cultural monuments in
Kosovo also proved to be unfounded. In Gjakova, for example, we
found the two Ottoman-era bridges, both alleged to have suffered
direct hits, to be completely intact.
 
In the small towns and villages of the countryside, traditional
residential architecture was also a major target in the recent
conflict. Ottoman-era town houses (konak, shtepia) of prominent
Albanian families, and the stone tower-residences (kulla) that are
indigenous to this area of the Balkans and typical of Albanian
traditional architecture, had clearly been singled out for
destruction by Serb forces during the "ethnic cleansing" campaigns
of the summer of 1998 and the spring of 1999. Of some 500 kullas in
Kosovo, most built during the 18th-19th c. and inhabited by
generations of the same families, barely 10 per cent are estimated
to have survived the war intact.
 
Catholic churches
 
The Roman Catholic church of
St. Anthony had been taken over by soldiers from the nearby Yugoslav
army base, who evicted the Albanian priests and the nuns from the
church and convent "half an hour before the war (i.e. the NATO
bombing) began," according to the parish priest, Fr. Ambroz Ukaj.
The church and the convent were used as a military command centre
for the next two months, while the army base was flattened by NATO's
air strikes. The only damage to the church, other than windows
broken by air blast, was that caused by Yugoslav soldiers who
thoroughly looted and vandalized the premises before they left in
early June 1999.
 
Mosques
 
Another category of historical architecture in urgent need of
protection in Kosovo is Muslim houses of worship. This part of
Europe is home to an indigenous Islamic tradition going back more
than 600 years,
 
This heritage suffered
massive destruction during the recent conflict. In the majority of
cases, it was evident from the statements of eyewitnesses, from the
type of damage (mosques burned out from within, with no bullet or
shrapnel holes; minarets that had been blown up with explosives
placed inside, causing the stone spire to collapse onto the
building), and from visible signs of vandalism (Koran manuscripts
ripped from bindings and burned or defaced with human excrement,
crude anti-Muslim and anti-Albanian graffiti in Serbian on the walls
of destroyed and desecrated mosques) that this destruction was not
the result of military activities. These were not buildings that had
been caught in the crossfire as Serbian forces fought Albanian
rebels, or hit by NATO's bombs and missiles.
 
According to statistics published before the war, there were 607
mosques in Kosovo as of 1993. Of these, 528 were congregational
mosques (xhamia) of which 498 were in active use, and 79 smaller
mosques (mesxhid) of which 70 were in active use; the majority dated
from Ottoman times.[8] More than 200 of these mosques--a third of
all Islamic houses of worship in Kosovo--were destroyed or damaged
during the recent conflict, according to our survey and
documentation we examined in the offices of the Islamic Community.
 
Orthodox Churches
 
Although much concern was expressed during last spring's NATO
bombing campaign about the fate of Kosovo's medieval Orthodox
churches and monasteries, in fact we found no evidence that any
Orthodox sites had suffered serious damage during the war--either
from NATO bombs or at the hands of Albanian rebels.
 
After the end of the war, however, the situation with respect to Serbian Orthodox heritage changed for the worse.
 
http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/cdl/2000/1124.html
 
enough?
Ti Shqipri m ep nder...
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 06:51
"Your try wasn’t even nice. Malcom was quoting an important Serbian official and Yugoslav archives."
 
So quote the archive directly. In any case he is a bias source that pretty much invested half his life in pleading the Albanian cause.
 
"Its more honorable if you just admit your mistake."

More then happy to when it is the case.
 
"Their cultural original center was in Raskia, that after the Serbian invasion,Kosova,and from the ottoman invasion till the present times Belgrade bacame their only main center.I don’t think any right is need to state some obvious facts."

Non sense even in Byzantine times Kosovo was known as the monestary province.
 
"1.8 %,are you serious?"

Yea and i've stated this several times.
 
The Dečani Charter from 1330 contained a detailed list of households and chartered villages in Metohija and northwestern Albania:
3 of 89 settlements were Albanian, the other being non-Albanian.
Out of the 2,166 farming homesteads and 2,666 houses in cattle-grazing land, 44 were registered as Albanian (1,8%). The rest were registered as Slavic, mostly Serbian Orthodox.
1455: Turkish cadastral tax census (defter) of the Brankovic dynasty lands (covering 80% of present-day Kosovo) recorded 480 villages, 13,693 adult males, 12,985 dwellings, 14,087 household heads (480 widows and 13,607 adult males). Totally there were around 75,000 inhabitants in 590 villages comprising modern-day Kosovo. By ethnicity:
13,000 Serb dwellings present in all 480 villages and towns
75 Vlach dwellings in 34 villages
46 Albanian dwellings in 23 villages
17 Bulgarian dwellings in 10 villages
5 Greek dwellings in Lauša, Vučitrn
1 Jewish dwelling in Vučitrn
1 Croat dwelling
 

1487: A census of the House of Branković

Vučitrn district:
16,729 Christian housing (412 in Priština and Vučitrn)
117 Moslem households (94 in Priština and 83 in rural areas)
Ipek (Peć) district:
City of Ipek - 68% Serbs
121 Christian household
33 Moslem households
Suho Grlo and Metohija:
131 Christian household of which 52% in Suho Grlo were Serbs
Kline e Poshtme/Donja Klina - 50% Serbs
Dečani - 64% Serbs
Rural areas:
6,124 Christian housings (99%)
55 Moslem houses (1%)

"You forgot to put Albania in those nations,i assume you just forgot it,since you are not biased,right?"
 
Oh yea suffered so badly. Except for the fact that most Albanians converted to Islam and were treated as Turks. Perhaps now you will mention the Greek Epirote known as George Kastrioti, Byzantine seal and all.
 
"He clearly says that he is going to liberate Albanians as well, because they were suffering together with Serbs. Instead you are saying that Serbs suffered under the Albanians.If they “suffered” a little bit  more it was just because of their different religion and it wasn’t Albanians fault."
 
Political statements. He's obviously just trying to unfiy the Albanians. And they did suffer because of the Turks, when they tried rebelling, but before the late 1800s the Albanians lived just fine with the Turks. For you to deny they suffered is a joke. Did they make any skull towers out of Albanian skulls? They did it to the Serbs.
 
"However all this thing of orthodox suffering under the muslims is just an overestimation, and all those churches all around kosova are the best proof of it. Even the famous church of Decani was under the protection of the Albanian Moslem voivods."
 
You can have churches and still suffer. The method in which they got jannisaries and their slaves from the Balkans is proof enough of their tyranical rule. The Ottoman Turks treated their non Muslim subjects like crap. And they put muslims from the Balkans in charge of doing it too.
 
"I agreed that we had close relation for almost 4 years with yugoslavia,but I never said there was an Albanian emigration.We had close relation with USSR and China but we never emigrated there aswell."
 
It wasn't friendly emigration. It was Tito opening the boarder because he knew the Albanians would move to Yugoslavia which was much richer, instead of staying in Albania. Doing this he hoped to twist Albania's arm into getting absorbed.
 
"He was a war correspondent in the Balkans so he was well informed.During the Balkans wars horrible crimes happened on all sides, except for the Albanian side,that wasn’t even a side ,but just civilians at the mercy of foreign armies."
 
LOL "Everyone did bad things but Albania." Man you made me giggle. Good job. Showing yet again how bias you are.
 
"You really think that Turks only worry was to kill serbs all day long.They did it at the beginning when the Balkans nations weren’t under their full control, but not only with Serbs but with every people they fought,but certainly this was everything but a norm during their reign."
 
You really think Serbs only worry was to kill Albanians all day long?
 
And No i don't think the Turks wanted to do that all day. They would much prefer they convert to Islam, or be their slaves. When they didn't they killed them and made towers out of their skulls.
 
"The daily telegraph account states the same"

You have a bad eye for detail.
 
"I never said that those lands were 100% Albanian,the same as today there was a Serbian minority.And another thing, go inform your self about the Kosovar Albanian’s, and Kosova in general,they were one of the welthiest regions of the ottoman empire."
 
IIRC the account spoke of Serbs in Albania, not in Kosovo. So there were supposedly Serbs in Albania that borrowed money, and instead of paying back they told the military to kill them. Hmm right. And I know Kosovo was a wealthy region. But Kosovo wasn't Albania, and it isn't today, and it won't be in the future either.
 
"Serbs tried to annex not only Kosova but all of northern Albania including the sea port of Durres.Indeed they invaded all these lands during the 1913 offensive but were forced to withdraw thanks to the international pressure."

Serbs tried to take back Kosovo from the Turks and Albania was just another piece of Turkish territory to take. When was the last time Albania was an independent country? It was just another piece of Ottoman territory and before that a piece of Serbian territory and before that a piece of Roman territory. I personally think Albania should exist. But i believe Albanians should be there, not claiming Vardraska, Epirus, Montenegro or more land from the Serbs. You see until the modern era most people agreed generally on history. Nobody believed such non sense that Alexander, Justinian, and Constantine were Albanian for example. These were politically motivated revisionisms. Those are just a few examples. The two world wars have shown people how they can lie, and lie big. The communist regimes furthered these examples.
 
"And why only this is insane?Because the victims were Christians?"

Because Orthodox priests and the Orthodox faith in general is non aggressive. We haven no jihads, no crusades. And forcing someone to convert is impossible in our Church. It simply doesn't make sense. Communion for example is something to be earned. If you are not Orthodox you can not take it, and if you do it serves as damnation not salvation. If a priest willingly does this he takes the sin of that person to himself. So perhaps the story is true but it would be the first and only time. But again I doubt it.
 
"A documentary considered biased, by its own sponsor and producer (The checz TV),can’t become objective just because you say so."

Obviously you aren't reading my posts. I posted a documentary of my own. Please if we can hope for any form of discussion you at least have to read my posts.
 
"How they did purify Kosova anyway? Ethnically motivated crimes were almost inexistent when Kosova had its autonomy .Serbs were losing the control of the province,that’s right and they were just pissed of having Albanian ,communist leader, mayors ,doctors , and policemen.But you can see it by your own now,their paranoia just made true their worst nightmare, the independence of Kosova. "

Are you insane? I posted several articles and accounts detailing how the Serbs were forced to flee Kosovo under Albanian autonomy and after it was taken away.
 
"enough?"
 
No this is crap. It said no Orthodox Churches were destroyed because of NATO bombs yet I can show you pictures of Churches with cluster bomb fragments.
 
Just a few pictures:
 
 
I have a question. Why do you keep using Kosovo in a grammatical incorrect term? IIRC Kosova is used in an accusitive term.
 
In twisting every aspect of truth Kosovo separatists are changing even the name of the region calling it Kosova (with "A" at the end of the term). The name Kosovo - which is used as such in all world literature - is of Serbian origin. It would not be politically correct that future "Albanian" region carries a Serbian name. Thus it was Albanized into Kosova.
We looked through world Encyclopediae trying to find Kosova...
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is Kosova (with "A")?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A few old Encyclopedia Britannica have entry KOSOVA. Next to it is a refference - See Gusii. Here is what we have found there (quote):
GUSII also called KISSI, or KOSOVA, a Bantu-speaking people who inhabit the Kissii District of Nyanza Province, Western Kenya, an area between Lake Victoria ant the Tanzanian border...
(End quote)
Let us check one more informed view:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Kosova" or "Kosovo"?
The name "Kosovo"
By: J. P. Maher Ph. D.
Professor Emeritus of Linguistics
Northeastern Illinois University Chicago

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Kosovo" is a Serbian place name, more fully "kosovo polje", meaning the 'field (or plain) of blackbirds'. "Kosovo Polje" lies just outside the city of Prishtina.
Ornithology lesson: Among North Americans, Australians, and South Africans, only ornithologists can identify the species in question. Kosovo's "black bird" is no crow, nor raven, no starling nor grackle, but "turdus merula", European cousin of the North American rusty-bellied thrush ("turdus migratorius"), which Yanks call the "robin".
In Britain and Ireland "robin" is the name of another species, "erithacus rubecula".
(The "four and twenty 'blackbirds' baked in a pie", of the English rhyme, were of the species "merula", in Serbian called "kos". From this term "kosovo" is the derived possessive adjective.
Like America's harbinger of spring, the black bird called "kos" in Serbian language sings sweetly in the springtime and early summer.
For North Americans the feel of the Serbo-Croatian place name "Kosovo" can only be had from a free translation, "Field of Robins".
Albanians have borrowed the word from the Serbs, whose once overwhelming majority was driven down, especially since the Congress of Berlin, by savage aggression from Albanians incited then and in WW I by Austria-Hungary and Germany, in World War II by Mussolini's puppet Albanians, and after WW II by the discriminatory ethnic cleansing of the Stalinist dictator Josip Broz.
Native Indian place names in America have no meaning in English: e.g. "Michigan" means nothing in English. In Ojibwa "mishshikamaa" means "it is a big lake".
Just so the place names of Ireland have transparent meaning in Gaelic but are meaningless tags in the colonialist English, e.g. "Dublin" is Gaelic "dubh lin" 'black pool', and "Kildare" is "cil dara" 'church of the oak',
Just so the names of the Serbian province of Kosovo are clear Serbian formations, but have no meaning in the Albanian language.
Proof of the Serbian origin of the name and the loanword status of the immigrant Albanian term is that the word "kosovo" has a clear etymology to anyone who knows a Slavic language, while Albanian "Kosova" is an opaque, meaningless place name in the Albanian language.
Kosovo is Serbian.
(End of quoted text by Professor Maher)
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 06:53
"O yeah I forgot I don't exist."

Oh you do exist, just not in the way you think you do. Racially you are a Serb, albiet a Turk mixed one as you yourself admited. The difference between you and a Serb (except for the Turkish side of course) is the same as the different between me and a Romanian Muslim or Catholic or any other religion. It is a religious divide.
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 09:26
Hello Carpathian
 
I will dignify this forum from turning it religious bickering and i won't even reply on the BS Bat Ya'or wrote because it was throroughly discussed in other threads by me and other and there are books about the subject by real historian not politicoes.
 
If the muslims wanted to opress or at least be reigning over the infidels, why the hell did they issue fatwas against the Germans in the first place? Why did they join the other "infidels" the Croats instead of making their own country with German help?
 
And what are the problem with my sources, these are published works in english posted on the internet and If I could get a copy and sent them to you I will be more than happy. If this indicates something it shows you actually never bothered to read them or read them and they weren't to your liking.
 
Vladimir Zerjavic is a well known author, his Croat affiliation didn't stop him from condemning the murder of 320k Serbs by the Ustase not it hindered him from doing the other thing. Please tell me, Who the hell is Thompson or Dvorak? Here are more links:
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 16:02
Thompson is a popular singer in Croatia who participated in the last war and had pro Croatia songs.


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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 16:52
So a singer is an authority on the subject and an Academic who spent 70 years in the land of academia is total crap?
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 17:26
Originally posted by es_bih

Thompson is a popular singer in Croatia who participated in the last war and had pro Croatia songs.




Edit.

George Thompson - have no clue who he is.


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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 20:45
"I will dignify this forum from turning it religious bickering and i won't even reply on the BS Bat Ya'or wrote because it was throroughly discussed in other threads by me and other and there are books about the subject by real historian not politicoes."
 
We are not in that thread. We are in this thread, and I am not those people either. If you have something to say, then please say it. If you do not I will just remain with my points unchallenged and we can move on. Either way is fine for me.
 
"If the muslims wanted to opress or at least be reigning over the infidels, why the hell did they issue fatwas against the Germans in the first place? Why did they join the other "infidels" the Croats instead of making their own country with German help?"

But they did try to make their own country with the Germans. And the Croat Ustashe were the helpers of the Nazis. They did exactly that.
 
"And what are the problem with my sources, these are published works in english posted on the internet and If I could get a copy and sent them to you I will be more than happy. If this indicates something it shows you actually never bothered to read them or read them and they weren't to your liking.
 
Vladimir Zerjavic is a well known author, his Croat affiliation didn't stop him from condemning the murder of 320k Serbs by the Ustase not it hindered him from doing the other thing. Please tell me, Who the hell is Thompson or Dvorak?"
 
The problem is this is out dated. For example it wasn't known until fairly recently that the Partizani would send false messages to the British in WW2 to make it seem as if the Chetniks were siding with the communists when it was the Partizans themselves siding with the communists. The Croat you mentioned from the "Croat Centre of (dis)information" is also partial and anti chetnik because chetniks were seen as the enemies of Communist Yugoslavia. So just like today when they fought and won against the Chetniks they were evil men and very tough and when they lost against the Chetniks, it was actually only civilians they killed. Sounds very familiar to today. Srebrenica comes to mind. Another topic for another time.
 
"Thompson is a popular singer in Croatia who participated in the last war and had pro Croatia songs."

Thompson is a NAZI USTASHE that sings songs of the glory of the Ustashe state and slaughtering Serbs in war camps.
 
 
And the thing is, Croatian politicians go to these concerts. Not just "neo nazi kids" but actual members of the state. No not unelected unruling members, actual people with power.
 
 
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 23:05
Hello Carpathian
 
Mr Zerjavic is a respected scholar, The Wiesenthal center which persecutes anyone who challanges the official story of the holocaust and concentration camps and not only ruin their reputation but their families and friends etc find it extremely hard to challange Zerjavic in his analysis about war casualties and even accepted his numbers and figures, this my friend is enough to verify that the guy is saying the true. Again, who the hell is Thompson?
 
As for Bat Yeor, well, again, if you want a discussion, be my guest, you started this topic you finish it, open a new thread and I will be more than happy to discuss the issue with you. The woman is paranoid cook with no credentials whatsoever, except from cooks like her. She judges the 7th century attitudes with 20th century ideals and that is in my opinion enough. She ignores historical facts and cherrypicks historical events to support her arguments. She hates Islam, muslims and anything it stands for. If you want more I will go on and on I have all summer and since it is in the 40s C I have all the time in the world, start the topic and I will continue.
 
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