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Documentray: Stolen Kosovo

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Carpathian Wolf View Drop Down
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Documentray: Stolen Kosovo
    Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 09:17
"Like always you don’t read carefully,others ,posts. Here it is a phrase from Cubrilovics 1944 memorandum ,that was quoted in my previous post:"
 
Ah finally you over commit yourself. Man and you almost looked like you were going to win this one too. When you over commit in war, when it feels it is too easy, be assured you are throwing yourself on someone's sword.
Your quotes are nice and all but the problem is this. You're quoting Cubrilovic, member of the Black Hand, an assassin. And what is that proving? Maybe I can quote some members of the League of Prizren or Waffen SS Skanderbeg members. The point is there are crazy people on both sides. The difference is they seemed to be leaders more often on one side rather then the other. Vaso proposed some ideas, but if you want to prove something you have to prove they were implimented.
 
As for who had the majority i'll admit it seems to be nominally 50/50. Sources i've read vary from Turks to English to French sides. The point is however that that changed dramatically. And for you to say it is due to birthrate it is non sense. You still do not reply to my question as to how you say a 100% increase within 20 to 30 years is possible.
 
"Sure dear Serbian…sorry Carpathian wolf.At least you are indirectly admitting that there was a colonization .But if you still don’t i just brought some fresh(almost a century old indeed) and hard evidences."
 
I simply asked for proof of it. And even more important proof that the Serbs that the Albanians drove out and slaughtered were colonists and not just Serbs living there. And even if they were colonists what gave them the right?
 
And you never answered my questions either. What gives Albanians the right to draw a line around a plot of land, and call for independence? Can I get in a group of 200 Romanians, bring them to my property and declare independence? Why can't the Serb majority sections of Kosovo be their own country? Why is there this double standard? It's okay you don't have to answer. Out of 192 UN nations most don't believe the myths the KLA criminals spout.

The next funny thing is that you actually think i'm Serbian. You're frustration and disbelief that someone outside of the situation doesn't believe your non sense really shows how bogged down you are in your own biggotry. "Oh he disagrees with me, he must be a Serb!" But i guess that sort of mentallity is a norm for you.
 
"Just kidding,I know its impossible to convince you,and this quote from  the Serbian writer Vladimir Arsenijevic explains why:"

I read the quote as well as the link and the writer is an idiot that doesn't explain anything other then the general propaganda thrown about against the Serbs. I don't doubt there were Serbs that did bad things. Crimes happen in war, by its very nature. I also don't doubt that Croats/Bosniaks/Albanians did bad things. We'll focus with the last group for this topic however. It is just funny to me how one can claim ethnic cleansing against Albanians in Kosovo when their population is rising as the Serb one is falling. We have video tapes of Albanians climbing up on Churches and taring them down. We have terrorist heroin and sex slave dealers such as the KLA being hailed as heroes and allowed to run a new country. It really makes me wonder who the brain washed simplton really is.
 
I'll be waiting for your "hard evidences".
 
So far i've shown you that the UN forensic teams (even the Finnish one) have stated there was no massacre at Racak and that the bodies were moved. Not surprising the KLA would do this.
 
Then you quoted Vaso of the Blackhand and his ideas which prove I don't know what.
 
But what can I expect from someone who calls me a liar, and tells me to "read something in general." I guess when you're capacity to express an idea is limited all you can fall back to is insults such as that.
 
Perhaps now you can answer my questions? Maybe you forgot to reply to them when you got yourself all frustrated and looking for something incriminating to paint the Serbs evil. In the long run I don't see people with attitudes such as yours winning much of anything.
 
I have another question however. How is it that Albania has problems with Montenegro, FYROM, Serbia, and Greece. Four countries that the Albanians want land from, yet no one wants your land. We have a saying in Romania. When one person says you are drunk you can ignore them. When two or more say so, go to sleep. Pretty much meaning that if you are starting to say "everyone but me is crazy" you're probably the one that is going to scream about the sky falling.
 
But to bring the topic back on track, let's go back to Racak. Are you still denying the UN forensic team's findings? Let's just say that the Finnish team still held the opinion it had pre 2007 when they said there was no massacre. Do you not see any bias in yourself in choosing them over the groups of other teams there? If the situation was reversed and all the teams except for the Finnish team said that there was a massacre, wouldn't you be making the arguement to me that "only one team said there was no massacre?"
 
You know what the main differences between me and you is when approaching this topic? You came into it with your mind already made up for one side. You drew your conclusions to fit your pre-existant opinion. I actually did the research from both sides. I can bring actual arguements that are relevant. I can show the ideals of both leagues of prizren, people that lead your nation. While you can only quote Vaso, a rather unstable fellow. Only people like you, who use those same methods actually agree with you concerning this topic. I've been PMed by a few people in the short time these discussions have been up and i've been posting in them and being thanked that I have made the points that I have made, and glad. They also let me know that generally your line of arguements from that direction are typically not taken seriously. I'm seeing why more and more.
 
But yes back to Racak. And please this time, don't call me a liar, or stupid. I'm a latin, I can read between the lines. We put the lines there to begin with.
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 09:19
http://www.rastko.org.yu/kosovo/istorija/kosovo_migrations/index.html
 
Go ahead and read through that. I know you won't but when it is relevant you'll have no one but yourself to blame for not reading it.
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  Quote vranakonti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2008 at 01:09

 

Ah finally you over commit yourself. Man and you almost looked like you were going to win this one too. When you over commit in war, when it feels it is too easy, be assured you are throwing yourself on someone's sword.

Your quotes are nice and all but the problem is this. You're quoting Cubrilovic, member of the Black Hand, an assassin. And what is that proving? Maybe I can quote some members of the League of Prizren or Waffen SS Skanderbeg members. The point is there are crazy people on both sides. The difference is they seemed to be leaders more often on one side rather then the other. Vaso proposed some ideas, but if you want to prove something you have to prove they were implimented.

 

If your sword is wikipedia or some racist forum from where you borrow your quotes,then i have nothing to fear.My quotes are neither nice or cute,these a are wrong adjectives to judge a source.

You are trying to discredit Vaso,but you can’t impeach him as a witness.Clearly he is not only proposing ideas but also ascertaining facts.The first part of each of his memorandums is just a description of the past attempts some successful and some not, to colonize Albanian inhabited lands.

 

But I agree Vaso was an assassin.but also:

 

..A leading member of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Art, Cubrilovic also held several ministerial portfolios after World War II. Among his writings is the monograph "Istorija politicke misle u Srbiji XIX veka," Belgrade 1958 (History of political thought in Serbia in the 19th century

 

So he was not an ordinary man.But if for you he is not enough I can bring you here other quotes from even more famous and important Serbians

 

As for who had the majority i'll admit it seems to be nominally 50/50. Sources i've read vary from Turks to English to French sides. The point is however that that changed dramatically. And for you to say it is due to birthrate it is non sense. You still do not reply to my question as to how you say a 100% increase within 20 to 30 years is possible.

 

How did you came out with this 50-50,even you own source,that is a biased interpretation of Kosovas history states the following.

The ethnic composition of present-day Kosovo Province can be assessed only indirectly for the period between the two wars, through data concerning the inhabitants' mother tongue. The 1921 Census lists 439,000 people as having Albanian for their mother tongue; in 1931 this figure was already 505,000 for the whole country, which means 280,000 to 332,000 for the Province of Kosovo, or 64% and 59% respectively. The drop in their share, despite the tangible growth in their number, is due to the arrival of the Serbian and Montenegrin population - both the return of refugees from World War I and the spontaneous and organized settlement of this sparsely populated area (in 1921 there were 41.3 people to 1 square kilometer of land).

Of course they forgot to put in their calculations the Albanian victims of the Serbian repression during  and after the Balkan wars,and also the Albanian emigration to Albanian and the organized mass deportation toward Turkey.But fortunately Vaso did not.

Also from your source:

Kosovo's Population by Number of inhabitants Nationality
Albanians
1921-439’000           
1931-552'000           
1948-728’000           
1953-808’000           
1961-964’000           
1971-1,245’000
 
Albanians in %
 
1921-(read the quote above)    
1931-(read the quote above)    
1948-68,5 
1953-64.9 
1961-67,2 
1971-73.7
1981-77.4
 
Albanians annual growth rate in %:
 
1948-53 - 1.02        
1953-61 - 2.60        
1961-71 – 3.44
1971-81 - 2.89
 
As you can see the annual Albanian growth rate, and the total growth were constant in all the Yugoslavian censuses so everything suggests the Albania birth rate as the only reason for the increase of the Albanian population.Of course there are many other collateral reasons like the Serbian low birth rate,the Kosovo Serbian abortion rate(Europe highest). 
 
 

Just google Yugoslav census and you will have the answer.This material is from the 1971 census.

 

TITLE: Yugoslavia's Population After Recent Census

DATE:1971-11-8
 
Summary: According to a census taken on 31
March 1971, Yugoslavia has more than 20 million
inhabitants. The first appraisals of the results
indicate that the greatest increase in population
growth has been among the Albanians. Some
Yugoslav estimates indicate that in 1986 there
will be almost two million Albanians in
Yugoslavia, and in 2000 perhaps even three million.
The capital of Yugoslavia, Belgrade, registered
1,204,271 inhabitants.
 
 
Albanians: Greatest Increase
 
In comparison to the 1961 census, the autonomous
province of Kosovo (predominantly populated by Albanians) had
the greatest population increase - 29 percent, followed
by Macedonia (17 percent), Bosnia and Hercegovina (14 percent)
and Montenegro (12 percent). Falling under the average Yugoslav
increase, which amounts to 11 percent, are Serbia, with
a population increase of only 10 percent, Croatia, 8 percent
and Vojvodina, 5 percent. [4]
 
Albanians jumped from fifth to fourth place according
to ethnic numerical strength. As seen in Table II,
the population in the autonomous province of Kosovo increased
from 964,000 in 1961 to 1,245,000 in 1971. The difference
is 281,000. Of course, not all these people are Albanians,
but surely at least 80 percent of them are.
 
http://www.osa.ceu.hu/files/holdings/300/8/3/text/79-3-119.shtml
 
As you see none is surprised with the Albanian growth,and they explain it simply with the birth rate.
 
Again this is the the demographic story of Kosovo after ww2
 
1921-439’000 (estimation)        
1931-552'000 (estimation)        
1948-728’000           
1953-808’000           
1961-964’000           
1971-1,245’000
 
If you wan’t to explain the increase with an Albanian emigration then here you have an article describing the Albanian-Yugoslavian,nor exactly friendly,relations.
 
Some quotes:
 
Until Yugoslavia's expulsion from the Cominform (see Glossary) in 1948, Albania acted like a Yugoslav satellite and Tito aimed to use his choke hold on the Albanian party to incorporate the entire country into Yugoslavia.
 
The pro-Yugoslav faction wielded decisive political power in Albania well into 1948.
 At a party plenum in February and March, the communist leadership voted to merge the Albanian and Yugoslav economies and militaries. 
Hoxha, to the core an opportunist, even denounced Spiru for attempting to ruin Albanian-Yugoslav relations. 
During a party Political Bureau (Politburo) meeting a month later, Xoxe proposed appealing to Belgrade to admit Albania as a seventh Yugoslav republic. 
When the Cominform expelled Yugoslavia on June 28, however, Albania made a rapid about-face in its policy toward Yugoslavia. 
The move surely saved Hoxha from a firing squad and as surely doomed Xoxe to one. 
Three days later, Tiranë gave the Yugoslav advisers in Albania forty-eight hours to leave the country,
 rescinded all bilateral economic agreements with its neighbor, and launched a virulent anti-Yugoslav propaganda blitz that transformed Stalin into an Albanian national hero, 
Hoxha into a warrior against foreign aggression, and Tito into an imperialist monster
 
The subsequent anti-Titoist purges in Albania brought the liquidation of 
fourteen members of the party's thirty-one-person Central Committee and thirty-two of the 109 People's Assembly deputies. 
Overall, the party expelled about 25 percent of its membership. 
Yugoslavia responded with a propaganda counterattack, canceled its treaty of friendship with Albania, and in 1950 withdrew its diplomatic mission from Tiranë.
 
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+al0036)
 
So tell me when exactly did those Albanians cross the border, since there was 0 contact between Albanians in the two sides of the border at least from1948. 
 

I simply asked for proof of it. And even more important proof that the Serbs that the Albanians drove out and slaughtered were colonists and not just Serbs living there. And even if they were colonists what gave them the right?

I know they were poor villagers that came in Kosova hoping for a better life and new land.But this land wasn’t theirs it was taken from the Albanian rightful owners, after the agrarian reform.To me the fact that they were Colonists is more then enough to justify their expulsion.  

 

 

 

 

 And you never answered my questions either. What gives Albanians the right to draw a line around a plot of land, and call for independence? Can I get in a group of 200 Romanians, bring them to my property and declare independence? Why can't the Serb majority sections of Kosovo be their own country? Why is there this double standard? It's okay you don't have to answer. Out of 192 UN nations most don't believe the myths the KLA criminals spout.

 

A group of Romanians is not the same of group of 2’000’000 Albanians,that at least from the formation of the Serbian and Albanian national conscience were the majority in that region.

Albanians can’t live in the same state with the people that ethnic cleansed 900’000 of them in only a week,that killed 15’000 of them burned down 120’000 of their houses,with the people that arbitrarily annuled thei autonomy,that fired them from their jobs,that closed all their schools,their university ,their Tv and papers in Albanian language,

All these reasons for me are more than enough,

 .

The next funny thing is that you actually think i'm Serbian. You're frustration and disbelief that someone outside of the situation doesn't believe your non sense really shows how bogged down you are in your own biggotry. "Oh he disagrees with me, he must be a Serb!" But i guess that sort of mentallity is a norm for you. .

 

If you are not a Serb,for sure you have close links with them,but I really don’t care for me you can be also Chinese it doesn’t changes that you your post are filled with Serbian extremist views, Albanians are from Caucasus,Albananians were never a majority,they emigrated from Albania and other conspiratorial rubbish.

 



I read the quote as well as the link and the writer is an idiot that doesn't explain anything other then the general propaganda thrown about against the Serbs. I don't doubt there were Serbs that did bad things. Crimes happen in war, by its very nature. I also don't doubt that Croats/Bosniaks/Albanians did bad things. We'll focus with the last group for this topic however. It is just funny to me how one can claim ethnic cleansing against Albanians in Kosovo when their population is rising as the Serb one is falling. We have video tapes of Albanians climbing up on Churches and taring them down. We have terrorist heroin and sex slave dealers such as the KLA being hailed as heroes and allowed to run a new country. It really makes me wonder who the brain washed simplton really is.

 

Ok ok,the writer is just an idiot,B92 a western servant Vaso just an unstable….However to me a church a mosque and a private house are exactly the same,as you sow,so shall you reap.Do you know that even the building of The prizren league was destroyed from the Serbian army in 1999,well you have to be Albanian to understand its importance.

 

I have another question however. How is it that Albania has problems with Montenegro, FYROM, Serbia, and Greece. Four countries that the Albanians want land from, yet no one wants your land. We have a saying in Romania. When one person says you are drunk you can ignore them. When two or more say so, go to sleep. Pretty much meaning that if you are starting to say "everyone but me is crazy" you're probably the one that is going to scream about the sky falling.

 

How is that there are a lot of Albanians in all these countries,and just few of Montenegrinians,Serbs and Slavo Macedonians in Albania?

Ps. don’t put Greece in the mess that’s a totally different topic.

 

 

 

You know what the main differences between me and you is when approaching this topic? You came into it with your mind already made up for one side. You drew your conclusions to fit your pre-existant opinion. I actually did the research from both sides. I can bring actual arguements that are relevant. I can show the ideals of both leagues of prizren, people that lead your nation. While you can only quote Vaso, a rather unstable fellow. Only people like you, who use those same methods actually agree with you concerning this topic. .

 

So you are unbiased ,and have a neutral aproach?!Good one!

 

.[QUOTE I've been PMed by a few people in the short time these discussions have been up and i've been posting in them and being thanked that I have made the points that I have made, and glad. They also let me know that generally your line of arguements from that direction are typically not taken seriously. I'm seeing why more and more.[/QUOTE]

 

Good for you.

 

 

But yes back to Racak. And please this time, don't call me a liar, or stupid. I'm a latin, I can read between the lines. We put the lines there to begin with.

 

I never called you stupid.

 
This topic is not exclusively about Racak,and i answered to precise statements of yours,though when ill have time,ill reply also about Racak,but sure you wan't my opinion,you had such a long conversation with T.F. about that,i thought it was enough.
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  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2008 at 05:13
Here is an interesting article:

Correspondence between German Politicians Reveals the Hidden Agenda behind Kosovo's "Independence"

Or: How NATO broke international law in drive to match Rome’s “greatest territorial expansion”

To all those still trying to get at the bottom of the recent US-led unilateral declaration of Kosovo’s “independence” completely outside of the UN framework and America’s willingness to destabilize not just relations with Russia but the entire international order, no document provides a clearer or more cogent explanation of the entire process than the following piece of correspondence.

In a strikingly frank letter to then German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder, of May 2, 2000, in the form of a report from a State Department/American Enterprise Institute-sponsored conference in Bratislava, Slovakia (“Is Euro-Atlantic Integration Still on Track? Opportunities and Obstacles,” held on April 28-30, 2000), Willy Wimmer, then member of the German Bundestag and Vice President of the Parliamentary Assembly of the OSCE (Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe), succinctly lays out the causes of NATO’s 78-day bombing of Yugoslavia in the spring of 1999, the purposes behind NATO’s further enlargement toward the borders of Russia, and, most importantly from the aspect of global security, the US aim of undermining the international legal order as part of its vision of succeeding the Roman Empire at the height of its territorial expansion.

The conference itself was held at a very high level, with several prime ministers, foreign ministers and defense ministers from Central European countries in attendance, along with high-level State Department, OSCE and NATO officials, and representatives of high profile international NGO’s and think tanks

(see http://www.aei.org/research/nai/events/pageID.440,projectID.11/default.asp for a complete list of participants and http://www.aei.org/research/nai/events/pageID.439,projectID.11/default.asp for the conference agenda), including Richard Perle and Daniel Fried, current U.S. Assistant Secretary of State.

The fact that the correspondence between two of Germany’s and Europe’s highest officials pertains to a conference that took place almost 8 years ago does not make it any less relevant.

Quite the contrary.

Looking back at the events that have taken place since, and especially having in mind the “Kosovo parliament’s” “Declaration of Independence” of February 17, 2008, and the subsequent lightning-quick recognition of the new “state” on the part of the US and its closest, mostly Western allies, Willy Wimmer’s letter is not just a prophecy, but a roadmap, both of certain key events in Europe of the previous 8 years (expanding NATO to Rumania and Bulgaria “in order to secure a land connection with Turkey,” “permanently excluding Serbia out of European development,” establishing an unhindered US military presence in ex-Yugoslavia – Camp Bondsteel, Kosovo – etc.) and of events (soon?) to come (“undermining the international legal order,” “favoring peoples’ rights to self-determination over all other provisions or rules of international law,” etc.) on the international scene, including, most likely, a descent into disorder on a global scale.

In a subsequent interview given to a German foreign policy magazine (an excerpt of which was translated into English and posted on the site of New Serbian Political Thought, an influential Serbian political periodical - http://www.nspm.org.yu/Prikazi/nspm_on_english/2008_wimer1.htm), Wimmer further elaborated on the points made in his letter, revealing, among other things, that the US is using the Balkans to cushion the fallout with Muslim states over its Mid-East policies, but also, following in Bismarck’s footsteps, to keep the rest of Europe off balance by encouraging unrest in that region, which, as an added bonus, is a good way to spoil European-Russian relations.

If there were any doubts as to the aggressive nature of the US-led policy regarding Kosovo (and Europe as a whole), the following letter will almost certainly dispel them.

The same applies to all doubts as to whether the case of Kosovo’s secession and its US-led recognition as an independent state represents not just a grievous but a deliberate violation of international law and the wrecking of the post-World War II European and global order.



Mr. Gerhard Schröder

Federal Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany

Bundeskanzleramt  
Schloßplatz 1  
10178 Berlin

Berlin, May 2, 2000

Highly esteemed Mr. Chancellor,

At the end of last week I had the opportunity to attend a conference in the Slovakian capital of Bratislava, jointly organized by the American State Department and the American Enterprise Institute (the foreign policy institute of the Republican Party). The main topics of the gathering were the Balkans and NATO enlargement.

The conference was attended by very high level political officials, as witnessed by the presence of a large number of prime ministers, as well as foreign ministers and defense ministers from the region. Among the numerous important points of discussion, certain themes deserve special mention:

  1. The conference organizers demanded the speediest possible international recognition of an independent state of Kosovo within the circle of the allied states.
  2. The organizers declared that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia lies outside of any legal framework, before all outside the Helsinki Final Act [on the inviolability of state borders – trans. note].
  3. The European legal order presents an obstacle to carrying out the plans of NATO. In this sense, the American legal system is more suitable for application in Europe.
  4. The war against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was waged in order to rectify General Eisenhower’s erroneous decision during World War II. Therefore, for strategic reasons, American troops must be stationed there, in order to compensate for the missed opportunity from 1945.
  5. The European allies participated in the war against Yugoslavia in order to, de facto, overcome the obstacle and dilemma that appeared after the adoption of NATO’s “New Strategic Concept” in April 1999, that is, the Europeans’ efforts to previously secure a UN or OSCE mandate.
  6. Without denigrating the importance of the Europeans’ after-the-fact legalistic interpretation, namely that the expansion of NATO’s tasks beyond the treaty’s legal domain in the war against Yugoslavia was just an exception, it is nevertheless clear that this represented a precedent, to be invoked by anyone at any time, and that many others will follow the example in the future.
  7. It would be good, during NATO’s current enlargement, to restore the territorial situation in the area between the Baltic Sea and Anatolia such as existed during the Roman Empire, at the time of its greatest power and greatest territorial expansion.
  8. For this reason, Poland must be flanked to the north and to the south with democratic neighbor states, while Romania and Bulgaria are to secure a land connection with Turkey. Serbia (probably for the purposes of securing an unhindered US military presence) must be permanently excluded from European development.
  9. North of Poland, total control over St. Petersburg’s access to the Baltic Sea must be established.
  10. In all processes, peoples’ rights to self-determination should be favored over all other provisions or rules of international law.
  11. The claim that, during its attack on the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, NATO violated all international rules, and especially all the relevant provisions of international law – was not disputed.

After this conference, at which discussion was quite candid and open, it will not be possible to avoid the importance and long-term ramifications of its conclusions, especially having in mind the competence of the participants and organizers.

It seems that the American side, for the sake of its own goals, is willing and ready to undermine, on a global scale, the international legal order, which came about as a result of the two world wars in the previous century. Force is to stand above law. Wherever international law stands in the way, it is to be removed.

When the League of Nations experienced a similar fate, World War II was not far off. The manner of thought that takes into regard solely its own interests can only be referred to as totalitarian.

With friendly regards,

Willy Wimmer

Member, German Bundestag and Vice President, Parliamentary Assembly of the OSCE

(Note: a facsimile of the original letter, in German, can be found at http://www.medienanalyse-international.de/wimmer.html

The above translation is from a German-to-Serbian translation by Nikola Živković, which appeared in the Belgrade weekly “NIN,” of February 8, 2007. Another translation, by Andrej Grubacic, preceded by a commentary, can be found at http://www.zmag.org/Sustainers/Content/2007-02/18grubacic.cfm)

Introduction and translation: Aleksandar Pavić

Aleksandar Pavić is a political commentator living in Belgrade, Serbia.

Contact e-mail: apavic@verat.net

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8304




Edited by Bankotsu - 18-Jun-2008 at 05:24
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2008 at 05:29
"If your sword is wikipedia or some racist forum from where you borrow your quotes,then i have nothing to fear.My quotes are neither nice or cute,these a are wrong adjectives to judge a source.

You are trying to discredit Vaso,but you can’t impeach him as a witness.Clearly he is not only proposing ideas but also ascertaining facts.The first part of each of his memorandums is just a description of the past attempts some successful and some not, to colonize Albanian inhabited lands."

 
If you don't even know the sword that strikes you I feel all the more sorry for you.
 
What did Vaso witness? Colonists in Kosovo? Did I ever deny there were colonists in Kosovo?
 
"But I agree Vaso was an assassin.but also:"
 
And so what? Were his ideas implimented? No. On the other hand the Leagues of Prizren did try to impliment their ideas and it was fairly successful. So what is your call against Vaso? You didn't like what he said? And you justify the actions of the League and of the KLA based on what one man said?
 
"How did you came out with this 50-50,even you own source,that is a biased interpretation of Kosovas history states the following."

I stated that some sources said there was a marginal majority to the Serbs, another to the Albanians. in the 1500s the Albanian population was 1.8 so we know that there was one change in a certain direction.
 
"Of course they forgot to put in their calculations the Albanian victims of the Serbian repression during  and after the Balkan wars,and also the Albanian emigration to Albanian and the organized mass deportation toward Turkey.But fortunately Vaso did not."
 
Victims of what? What did the Serbs do to the Albanians (who got their land through displacing Serbs via their Turkish loyalty) in the Balkan wars? Perhaps this was when the Albanians were trying to form "Greater Albania" ? It looks to me like you are just sore that Albania lost the wars. Oh darn we wanted to take lands of Serbia, Montenegro, FYROM and Greece but darn they beat us. So mean of them!
 
"So tell me when exactly did those Albanians cross the border, since there was 0 contact between Albanians in the two sides of the border at least from1948. "

You yourself admited that Tito wanted to absorb Albania. He opened the boarders between Kosovo and Albania. The Serbs were kicked out of their homes by the Albanians. The Albanians did not want to live alongside the Serbs in Kosovo.
 
"I know they were poor villagers that came in Kosova hoping for a better life and new land.But this land wasn’t theirs it was taken from the Albanian rightful owners, after the agrarian reform.To me the fact that they were Colonists is more then enough to justify their expulsion."
 
Can you prove that? Prove to me that the Serbs took the Albanian land? And please not the rants of Vaso. I mean actual actions being taken. It is interesting to know how little it takes for you to justify violence, murder and slaugther of people. It makes me wonder if perhaps Vaso did have the right idea. After all how can one live with someone who is so quick and prone to violence? Obviously had this been the 1940s you'd have been one to join the Waffen SS Skanderbeg, and justify it as "well they're just colonists". It justifies it right?
 
"

A group of Romanians is not the same of group of 2’000’000 Albanians,that at least from the formation of the Serbian and Albanian national conscience were the majority in that region.

Albanians can’t live in the same state with the people that ethnic cleansed 900’000 of them in only a week,that killed 15’000 of them burned down 120’000 of their houses,with the people that arbitrarily annuled thei autonomy,that fired them from their jobs,that closed all their schools,their university ,their Tv and papers in Albanian language,

All these reasons for me are more than enough,"


I was giving an example. And you STILL DIDN'T ANSWER MY QUESTION ABOUT SERBIAN MAJORITY SECTIONS OF KOSOVO. If they are the majority in those sections why can they not call for independence? What gives you the right over them.
 
Ethnicly cleansed 900,000 of them in a week? When?
 
Killed 15,000? When?
 
Burned down 120,000 houses? When?
 
And their autonomy was taken away because when they did have autonomy the people in charged treated the Serbs like crap. They sought to get rid of the rest of the Serbs and unify with Albania. That is when Milosevic took the autonomy away.
 
"If you are not a Serb,for sure you have close links with them,but I really don’t care for me you can be also Chinese it doesn’t changes that you your post are filled with Serbian extremist views, Albanians are from Caucasus,Albananians were never a majority,they emigrated from Albania and other conspiratorial rubbish."
 
I came studying this topic a few years ago because I always liked history but I never really knew much about the Balkans. The yugoslav region looked like a big puzzle to me. So I read into it. Who did what. I came into studying it with the notion that Serbs were the bad guys, and one day they flipped out and started killing everyone that was non Serb. So pretty much in the general ball park of what you believe. I thought that the Albanians were victims, and they were simply targeted due to their race. But once I studied it myself and looked at the information I saw that it wasn't the case at all.
 
Serbian extremist views to you means anything that comes from a Serb. So please spare me the crap.
 
About the thread of where Albanians came from, I was simply asking because I truley don't know the origin of the people and I was curious and still am. But instead of having an actual discussion your fellow countrymen insult me, they call me Serb, and refuse to participate in a mature level. Very defensive and for what? Some questions? Even you now, oh I disagree with you, so I must be a Serb, or strong ties to the Serbs. Well what about the 164 UN members that havn't recognized the KLA government? Hmm maybe they're Serb too. Talk about conspiratorial rubbish.
 
"Ok ok,the writer is just an idiot,B92 a western servant Vaso just an unstable….However to me a church a mosque and a private house are exactly the same,as you sow,so shall you reap.Do you know that even the building of The prizren league was destroyed from the Serbian army in 1999,well you have to be Albanian to understand its importance."

It is disgusting to hear your opinion and I wonder just how far your justification for such actions go. You sow what you reap? Show me how many mosques have been destroyed. I can show you hundreds of pictures of Churches.
 
The League of Prizren as the British noted was made up of islamic fanatics with one goal in mind, Greater Albania. The building was a symbol of facism. So Facism and Islamic fanaticism and Greater Albania are important to your countrymen?
 
"How is that there are a lot of Albanians in all these countries,and just few of Montenegrinians,Serbs and Slavo Macedonians in Albania?

Ps. don’t put Greece in the mess that’s a totally different topic."

 
How is that there are a lot of Albanians in those countries? Simple, those Albanians left Albania and went to someone else's country. And then claim it as their own. And even if they had been there since forever, what gives them the right to say "okay this is my country now." And use violence?
 
"So you are unbiased ,and have a neutral aproach?!Good one!"

And you think because I don't agree with you i'm not neutral. Well I'm from a completely different country, I grew up in America. You? You're Albanian and you obviously have your biases. Anyone with two eyes and a working cell in their brain can tell who comes from a more unbias perspective.
 
"Good for you."

It is isn't it.
 
"I never called you stupid."

"Go read, in general I mean." Is what you said. This suggest you are saying I havn't read at all. And you are saying you did not call me stupid? Please save what little respect you have and don't bs me and the people reading this thread.
 
"This topic is not exclusively about Racak,and i answered to precise statements of yours,though when ill have time,ill reply also about Racak,but sure you wan't my opinion,you had such a long conversation with T.F. about "
 
I'll wait for a full reply to my questions when you can muster one. I just have to re calibrate what line of speaking I need to use with someone who justifies the violence that has been commited the way you do.
 
Something you can read:
 
The New York Times
November 1, 1987, Sunday, Late City Final Edition
Section 1; Part 1, Page 14, Column 1;

"In Yugoslavia, Rising Ethnic Strife Brings Fears of Worse Civil Conflict"

By DAVID BINDER, Special to the New York Times

BELGRADE, Yugoslavia

Portions of southern Yugoslavia have reached such a state of ethnic friction that Yugoslavs have begun to talk of the horrifying possibility of ''civil war'' in a land that lost one-tenth of its population, or 1.7 million people, in World War II.

The current hostilities pit separatist-minded ethnic Albanians against the various Slavic populations of Yugoslavia and occur at all levels of society, from the highest officials to the humblest peasants.

A young Army conscript of ethnic Albanian origin shot up his barracks, killing four sleeping Slavic bunkmates and wounding six others.

The army says it has uncovered hundreds of subversive ethnic Albanian cells in its ranks. Some arsenals have been raided.

Vicious Insults

Ethnic Albanians in the Government have manipulated public funds and regulations to take over land belonging to Serbs. And politicians have exchanged vicious insults.

Slavic Orthodox churches have been attacked, and flags have been torn down. Wells have been poisoned and crops burned. Slavic boys have been knifed, and some young ethnic Albanians have been told by their elders to rape Serbian girls.

Ethnic Albanians comprise the fastest growing nationality in Yugoslavia and are expected soon to become its third largest, after the Serbs and Croats.

Radicals' Goals

The goal of the radical nationalists among them, one said in an interview, is an ''ethnic Albania that includes western Macedonia, southern Montenegro, part of southern Serbia, Kosovo and Albania itself.'' That includes large chunks of the republics that make up the southern half of Yugoslavia.

Other ethnic Albanian separatists admit to a vision of a greater Albania governed from Pristina in southern Yugoslavia rather than Tirana, the capital of neighboring Albania.

There is no evidence that the hard-line Communist Government in Tirana is giving them material assistance.

The principal battleground is the region called Kosovo, a high plateau ringed by mountains that is somewhat smaller than New Jersey. Ethnic Albanians there make up 85 percent of the population of 1.7 million. The rest are Serbians and Montenegrins.

Worst Strife in Years

As Slavs flee the protracted violence, Kosovo is becoming what ethnic Albanian nationalists have been demanding for years, and especially strongly since the bloody rioting by ethnic Albanians in Pristina in 1981 - an ''ethnically pure'' Albanian region, a ''Republic of Kosovo' ' in all but name.

The violence, a journalist in Kosovo said, is escalating to ''the worst in the last seven years.''

Many Yugoslavs blame the troubles on the ethnic Albanians, but the matter is more complex in a country with as many nationalities and religions as Yugoslavia's and involves economic development, law, politics, families and flags. As recently as 20 years ago, the Slavic majority treated ethnic Albanians as inferiors to be employed as hewers of wood and carriers of heating coal. The ethnic Albanians, who now number 2 million, were officially deemed a minority, not a constituent nationality, as they are today.

Were the ethnic tensions restricted to Kosovo, Yugoslavia's problems with its Albanian nationals might be more manageable. But some Yugoslavs and some ethnic Albanians believe the struggle has spread far beyond Kosovo. Macedonia, a republic to the south with a population of 1.8 million, has a restive ethnic Albanian minority of 350,000.

''We've already lost western Macedonia to the Albanians,'' said a member of the Yugoslav party presidium, explaining that the ethnic minority had driven the Slavic Macedonians out of the region.

Attacks on Slavs

Last summer, the authorities in Kosovo said they documented 40 ethnic Albanian attacks on Slavs in two months. In the last two years, 320 ethnic Albanians have been sentenced for political crimes, nearly half of them characterized as severe.

In one incident, Fadil Hoxha, once the leading politician of ethnic Albanian origin in Yugoslavia, joked at an official dinner in Prizren last year that Serbian women should be used to satisfy potential ethnic Albanian rapists. After his quip was reported this October, Serbian women in Kosovo protested, and Mr. Hoxha was dismissed from the Communist Party.

As a precaution, the central authorities dispatched 380 riot police officers to the Kosovo region for the first time in four years.

Officials in Belgrade view the ethnic Albanian challenge as imperiling the foundations of the multinational experiment called federal Yugoslavia, which consists of six republics and two provinces.

'Lebanonizing' of Yugoslavia

High-ranking officials have spoken of the ''Lebanonizing'' of their country and have compared its troubles to the strife in Northern Ireland.

Borislav Jovic, a member of the Serbian party's presidency, spoke in an interview of the prospect of ''two Albanias, one north and one south, like divided Germany or Korea,'' and of ''practically the breakup of Yugoslavia.'' He added: ''Time is working against us.''

The federal Secretary for National Defense, Fleet Adm. Branko Mamula, told the army's party organization in September of efforts by ethnic Albanians to subvert the armed forces. ''Between 1981 and 1987 a total of 216 illegal organizations with 1,435 members of Albanian nationality were discovered in the Yugoslav People's Army,'' he said. Admiral Mamula said ethnic Albanian subversives had been preparing for ''killing officers and soldiers, poisoning food and water, sabotage, breaking into weapons arsenals and stealing arms and ammunition, desertion and causing flagrant nationalist incidents in army units.''

Concerns Over Military

Coming three weeks after the ethnic Albanian draftee, Aziz Kelmendi, had slaughtered his Slavic comrades in the barracks at Paracin, the speech struck fear in thousands of families whose sons were about to start their mandatory year of military service.

Because the Albanians have had a relatively high birth rate, one-quarter of the army's 200,000 conscripts this year are ethnic Albanians. Admiral Mamula suggested that 3,792 were potential human timebombs.

He said the army had ''not been provided with details relevant for assessing their behavior.'' But a number of Belgrade politicians said they doubted the Yugoslav armed forces would be used to intervene in Kosovo as they were to quell violent rioting in 1981 in Pristina. They reason that the army leadership is extremely reluctant to become involved in what is, in the first place, a political issue.

Ethnic Albanians already control almost every phase of life in the autonomous province of Kosovo, including the police, judiciary, civil service, schools and factories. Non-Albanian visitors almost immediately feel the independence - and suspicion - of the ethnic Albanian authorities.

Region's Slavs Lack Strength

While 200,000 Serbs and Montenegrins still live in the province, they are scattered and lack cohesion. In the last seven years, 20,000 of them have fled the province, often leaving behind farmsteads and houses, for the safety of the Slavic north.

Until September, the majority of the Serbian Communist Party leadership pursued a policy of seeking compromise with the Kosovo party hierarchy under its ethnic Albanian leader, Azem Vlasi.

But during a 30-hour session of the Serbian central committee in late September, the Serbian party secretary, Slobodan Milosevic, deposed Dragisa Pavlovic, as head of Belgrade's party organization, the country's largest. Mr. Milosevic accused Mr. Pavlovic of being an appeaser who was soft on Albanian radicals. Mr. Milosevic had courted the Serbian backlash vote with speeches in Kosovo itself calling for ''the policy of the hard hand.''

''We will go up against anti-Socialist forces, even if they call us Stalinists,'' Mr. Milosevic declared recently. That a Yugoslav politician would invite someone to call him a Stalinist even four decades after Tito's epochal break with Stalin, is a measure of the state into which Serbian politics have fallen. For the moment, Mr. Milosevic and his supporters appear to be staking their careers on a strategy of confrontation with the Kosovo ethnic Albanians.

Other Yugoslav politicians have expressed alarm. ''There is no doubt Kosovo is a problem of the whole country, a powder keg on which we all sit,'' said Milan Kucan, head of the Slovenian Communist Party.

Remzi Koljgeci, of the Kosovo party leadership, said in an interview in Pristina that ''relations are cold'' between the ethnic Albanians and Serbs of the province, that there were too many ''people without hope.''

But many of those interviewed agreed it was also a rare opportunity for Yugoslavia to take radical political and economic steps, as Tito did when he broke with the Soviet bloc in 1948.

Efforts are under way to strengthen central authority through amendments to the constitution. The League of Communists is planning an extraordinary party congress before March to address the country's grave problems.

The hope is that something will be done then to exert the rule of law in Kosovo while drawing ethnic Albanians back into Yugoslavia's mainstream.
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2008 at 05:55

KLA -- Resurgent Nazis Under NATO's Wing


By George Thompson

"No one, in any case, should entertain any notion that any future Kosovo, whether run by Albanians or by an international protectorate, is going to have any Serbs in it." Tim Judah, New York Review of Books.

The false historical analogy underlying NATO's war against Yugoslavia is the purported resemblance of the Serbs' anti-KLA (Kosovo Liberation Army) counterinsurgency to nazi atrocities in the second world war. Clinton has compared the Serbian campaign to the Holocaust and Mrs. Clinton has stated that the images on CNN remind her of the movie Schindler's List; both implicitly analogize the Kosovar Albanians to Jews in the 1930s and '40s, and the Serbs to nazis. Other NATO leaders, and most journalists in NATO countries, have mindlessly echoed the Clintons' statements.

Not only is the analogy completely misplaced as a historical matter, but it was the Albanians who sided with the nazis and fascists in the 1940s and the current KLA that continues the ethnic eliminationist policies of that era. The Serbs are engaged in suppressing a resurgent neo-nazi movement, just as they did during and immediately after the world war. While NATO's rhetoric has served to rally an uninformed public's support for attacking Yugoslavia, even a cursory understanding of the area's recent history belies that rhetoric and refutes the false version of events that NATO has misused to justify its attack.

Mussolini's Italy occupied Albania proper in April 1939, and established a collaborationist regime with the enthusiastic support of the native population. After Hitler invaded and occupied Yugoslavia in spring 1941, the bulk of current Kosovo-Metohija was placed under Italian-Albanian collaborationist control and annexed to Albania. Kosovar Albanian fascist militias called the "Balli Kombëtar" or "Ballistas" conducted a campaign of murder and deportation against the Serb population between 1941 and 1943, the years of Italian control. Carlo Umilta, a civilian aide to the commander of the Italian occupation forces, described some of the atrocities in his memoirs and observed that "the Albanians are out to exterminate the Slavs."

The anti-Serb pogroms intensified after Italy's collapse in 1943, when the Germans assumed control of Albania, including Kosovo. In April 1944 the Germans formed the 21st "Waffen-Gebirgs Division der SS Skanderbeg" (alban.Nr.1) with German leadership and Kosovar Albanian officers and rank and file. Although the Germans raised the unit as an anti-Partisan force, its Albanian members were interested solely in murdering or expelling the Serb population, as their Ballista predecessors had done so successfully. The division was dissolved in early 1945.

A major impetus for the Kosovar Albanians' attempt to drive the Serbs from Kosovo under both fascist and nazi tutelage was militant Islam. The Islamist group "Second League of Prizren" was created in September 1943 by Xhafer Deva, a Kosovar Albanian, and proclaimed a jihad against Slavs. This effort was supported by the grand mufti of Jerusalem, El Haj Emin Huseini, who similarly called for the elimination of Jews in then-British-occupied Palestine.

No one is certain how many Serbs were killed or displaced in this Albanian-sponsored Holocaust. Estimates range between 10,000 and 30,000 murdered, with at least an additional 100,000 driven from Kosovo to elsewhere in Yugoslavia and replaced with "immigrants" from Albania proper. The Kosovar Albanians' depredations were a major cause of the current demographic imbalance: the Albanians constitute a majority of the Kosovo population because of their great success as Hitler's willing executioners. But their murderous attention was not limited only to Serbs. Countless Roma (Gypsies) were liquidated, and Kosovar Albanians, both acting alone and under German direction, managed to eliminate approximately 40 percent of Kosovo's Jewish population. The definitive work concerning the nazi-orchestrated elimination of Yugoslav Jews, "The Crimes of Fascist Occupants and Their Collaborators Against the Jews of Yugoslavia" (1952, revised 1957) (published by The Federation of Jewish Communities of Yugoslavia) estimates that there were approximately 550 Jews in Kosovo at the time of Hitler's takeover of Yugoslavia, and that 210 of them, or 38 percent, were murdered, primarily by Kosovar Albanians. In fact, the Skanderbeg division's first operation was to act as an "einsatzgruppen" against the Jews. Although KLA supporters now claim that no Jews were killed in Kosovo and that Jews were sheltered by the Kosovar Albanians, such claims are false and should be treated with the disdain shown to other Holocaust deniers.

Although their German mentors surrendered in 1945, the remnants of the Albanian Kosovar nazi and fascist groups continued fighting the Yugoslav government for an additional six years, with a major rebellion occurring from 1945 to 1948 in the Drenica region, the hotbed for today's KLA recruiting, under the command of Shaban Paluzha. Sporadic resistance continued from 1948 to 1951.

Notwithstanding the eventual suppression of these last Axis holdouts, Tito instituted a Kosovo policy of rewarding Albanians and subordinating Serbs instead of "denazifying" the Albanians. The Serbs that had been driven from Kosovo were as a general matter prevented from returning, while immigration from Albanian was encouraged to further skew the province's demographic profile. Tito granted an enhanced autonomy that placed Kosovar Albanians in local political control, and this power was used to continue making life intolerable for the Serbs, with the result that many thousands more fled during the 1970s and 1980s. The persecution of the Serbs during this time has been well documented elsewhere, particularly by David Binder of the New York Times who in 1982 -- long before Milosevic attained political power -- reported that the Albanians' violent "incidents have prompted many of Kosovo's Slavic inhabitants to flee the province, thereby helping to fulfill a nationalist demand for an ethnically 'pure' Albanian Kosovo." New York Times, Nov. 9, 1982 at A6. Facts on File reported similar findings, quoting an ethnic Albanian Communist Party official as saying "[t]he nationalists have a two-point platform, first to establish what they call an ethnically clean Albanian republic and then the merger with Albania to form a greater Albania". Facts on File World News Digest (Sept. 10, 1982).

In short, the same desire to drive out Serbs that animated the Albanian nazi and fascist units in the 1940s remained active throughout the post-war period. It flared anew into spectacular violence with the KLA's advent. In both form and substance, the KLA is merely a continuation of the Ballistas and Skanderbegs.

In form, the KLA has named its units after "heroes" of the Albanian nazi and fascist units. It has adopted the exact same insignia that was used by the Skanderbeg division. Many of its leaders and earliest members are the sons and grandsons of members of the Skanderbeg and Ballista units. A KLA-affiliated website, sponsored by the Kosova Liberation Peace Movement (www.klpm.org), looks with approbation on the nazi occupation:

As Germany overtook Yugoslavia in 1941, the Kosovar people were liberated by the Germans. All Albanian territories of this state, such as Kosova (sic), western Macedonia and border regions under Montenegro, were re-united into Albania proper. Albanian schools, governmental administration, press and radio were re-established.

And, needless to say, the Serbs were eliminated. The areas referred to constitute the "greater Albania" that the more audacious KLA leaders now seek to recreate. The kplm website envisions a similar "liberation" in the future: "The KLA is committed to liberate Kosova and to bring their motherland to freedom." Having seen that the previous liberation had resulted in the wholesale murder of the Serb and Jewish population, it is no wonder that the Serbian authorities took the strongest steps to prevent its promised recurrence.

Even more telling than the KLA's pedigree and self-chosen symbolism are its actions, for these truly demonstrate the group's unreconstructed nazism. The focus of the organization's efforts was the murder of Serb civilians, as well as Albanians that did not wish to provide their support. The KLA's 1998 terror campaign was designed to force all Serbs from areas under its control, and it was quite successful in doing so. In the autumn of 1998 the Associated Press reported that the Serbian populations of nearly 100 villages had been driven out, either by death or intimidation. KLA commanders Remi and Haradjani were particularly ruthless, and their documented campaign of terror against Serbs, Albanians and Roma, documented at www.siri-us.com, would earn them an indictment in the Hague if the International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia had any interest in justice.

The methods used by the KLA reek of Hitler-era barbarity. In Klecka, 22 Serb civilians were tortured and executed and their remains disposed of in an improvised crematorium, and near Glogovac Serb farmers and their families were butchered and thrown in a muddy ditch. While these incidents were ignored in the American press, which had long since picked the KLA as its favorites in the Kosovo conflict, the Serb authorities and citizenry were quite familiar with them and knew they portended a similar fate for the entire non-Albanian population unless the KLA was defeated.

And make no mistake: KLA victory and Kosovo's forced removal from Serbia will complete the process begun in the 1940s of eliminating the remaining Serbs. As Tim Judah, a strong supporter of the KLA, approvingly predicted in the May 1999 New York Review of Books: "No one, in any case, should entertain any notion that any future Kosovo, whether run by Albanians or by an international protectorate, is going to have any Serbs in it." Judah's words echo those of Carlo Umilta, the Italian fascist who at least had the decency to be disgusted by that prospect. In short, the KLA, with NATO's armed support, will complete what Hitler and Mussolini started, as people like Judah cheer them on.

Nor can the leaders and citizens of NATO countries feign ignorance of the KLA's true nature. Former New York Times reporter Chris Hedges, no friend of the Serbs, wrote in the May-June 1999 edition of Foreign Affairs that the KLA shows "hints of fascism on one side and whiffs of communism on the other" and notes the genealogical link between its leaders and members of "the Skanderbeg volunteer SS division raised by the Nazis" and their "part in the shameful roundup and deportation of . . . [the] few hundred Jews during the Holocaust." This description has been widely circulated although, predictably, Hedges ignored the shameful roundup and mass murder of Serbs during the nazi period. While most Americans, like Mrs. Clinton, may get their (mis)understanding of historical events through fictional movies, they should have at least a minimal understanding of the real historical facts before launching a war and destroying a country based solely on supposed historical analogies.

Some commentators in the U.S. have acknowledged the nazi/fascist affiliation of Kosovar Albanians in the 1940s, but argue that this is "ancient history" (to quote one U.S. congressman) and has no bearing on the current war. Aside from the fact that the Serb Holocaust is no more "ancient" than the gas chambers at Auschwitz, today's KLA has adopted the same goals and tactics of the Ballistas and Skanderbegs and should be given the same shrift that violent neo-nazi groups would receive in any other country.

Any group that considers the nazis as liberators, looks with nostalgia on nazi control, wishes to replicate that era today, and resorts to mass murder to do so deserves to be ruthlessly uprooted. Instead, NATO has allied itself with the KLA and gone to war to prevent the Serbs from eliminating this resurgent nazi cancer. What we have in the KLA is the resurrection of a 1940s nazi/fascist group, dressed up for 1990s media success and this time supported by the former world war 2 Allies along with, of course, Germany. The Serbs are no more the reincarnation of nazis than were the world war 2 resistance groups that fought against Hitler while the KLA's predecessors fought for him. The Serbian fight against the KLA was a continuation of the earlier struggle against Hitler's Kosovar Albanian allies. That Clinton's false analogy gained any credence among the ignorant populations of the United States and western Europe is, perhaps, a bigger injury than all the bombs and missiles dropped by NATO to help fulfill Hitler's agenda six decades later.

The Washington Post reported on June 5, 1999 that half the remaining Serb population had recently fled Kosovo, and the Washington Times of June 5 reported that the Pentagon expects the rest to follow. NATO has accomplished what even Hitler could not: the elimination of Serbs in Kosovo. Congratulations, America; you have done the Nazis' work, and Hitler is smiling in his grave..



Edited by Carpathian Wolf - 18-Jun-2008 at 18:43
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  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2008 at 05:58
Carpathian Wolf that last post is a bit hard on the eyes. Do you mind changing the type face (font) somehow.

Edited by King John - 18-Jun-2008 at 05:59
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  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2008 at 06:47

CIA aided Kosovo guerrilla army


AMERICAN intelligence agents have admitted they helped to train the Kosovo Liberation Army before Nato's bombing of Yugoslavia. The disclosure angered some European diplomats, who said this had undermined moves for a political solution to the conflict between Serbs and Albanians...


http://www.geocities.com/cpa_blacktown/20000314ciakltimuk.htm

WHO'S THE KLA? GERMAN DOCUMENT REVEALS SECRET CIA ROLE
http://www.serendipity.li/nato/kla.htm

British documentary substantiates US-KLA collusion in provoking war with Serbia
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/mar2000/koso-m16.shtml

Interesting balkan intrigue.

I wonder what plans USA and NATO has for the region.

I think USA/NATO goals are probably aimed against Russia, which is why Russia opposes Kosovo independence.

Will Moscow stun the world over Kosovo?
http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20080616/110734591.html


Edited by Bankotsu - 18-Jun-2008 at 06:47
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  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2008 at 07:31


Interview with Willy Wimmer: " Americans are Recommending Themselves as the Successors of Rome"

September, 2001

Excerpt of Interview with Willy Wimmer -- Former member of the German Bundestag, ex-German Deputy Defense Secretary and ex-Vice President of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe

The Strategic Framework of the Balkan Conflict

“The interests of the United States are obviously different from those of Europe. We are increasingly coming to the conclusion that the events in the Balkans developed in such a way so that Washington could establish a dominant presence in the region, which was not the case after 1945.

We should not lose sight of the fact that it was precisely Germany that started this unfortunate game, championing ethnically-based national states in the region. We should remember that Germany was the first to recognize Slovenia and Croatia. What still remains to be solved is why the Americans subsequently took up the German ethnic strategy.

I might say that, in the case of Germany, there was a sort of an aggressive laziness to genuinely deal with the situation in Yugoslavia and the Balkans. The cause probably lies in the simple fact that, in this way, without truly delving into the genuine state of affairs, people were able to, quite easily, without much effort, establish who was friend and who was foe.

In addition, there is no doubt at all that the United States decided very early on to support the Albanian side. This is also born out by the fact that Washington established its Information Office in Pristina [the provincial capital of Kosovo – trans. note] in 1997, contrary to the will of Belgrade. Here we should also remember the long years of activity on the part of Republican senator Bob Dole….

At the end of April 2000, I personally attended a conference in Bratislava, where the highest American officials discussed their future strategy in the Balkans. The conference organizers were the American State Department and the Republican Party's elite American Enterprise Institute. Among the conference participants were prime ministers, foreign ministers and defense ministers of Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Rumania and Bulgaria, and the personal representative of the NATO commander. Among these was a future American Assistant Secretary of State [Daniel Fried – trans. note]. The following was clearly stated there:

First point. The reason why we are in the Balkans today lies in our missed opportunity after 1945, when General Eisenhower made a mistake and did not station American land troops in that part of Europe. Now we must correct that error at all cost. Why? The reason lies in the very nature of land troops. The complete control of a territory is possible only if our land troops are present. Full control cannot be established with aircraft or ships alone.

Second point. I am surprised that the American side is discussing issues of European security, as evidenced by the example of Bratislava, in the tone of: “God is with us.” The consequence of such a relationship is that any attempt at a European, autonomous thinking is criticized or even labeled as anti-American. As a European, I must ask myself the following question: am I supposed to accept the Bratislava conclusions as the Laws of Moses or do I still have a right to think about my own interests.

Third point. The Americans see themselves as the successors of the Roman Empire. Their motto is: The Romans saw the Mediterranean as Mare nostrum. We Americans see the Atlantic as our own Mediterranean, as our own sea. For this reason we must draw a line of our interests, which is to extend from the Baltic Sea by Leningrad [present-day St. Petersburg – trans. note] to Odessa on the Black Sea, and on to Istanbul and Anatolia. Everything lying east of that line – these are now my own words – does not interest us. We must possess and secure a land communication on our own [sic!] territory, extending from Anatolia, i.e. Turkey, to Poland.

There are many indications that, for the Americans, the situation in the Balkans is a sort of compensation for the Middle East. They use the Balkans to compensate for failures in the Arab-Israeli conflict. Washington 's motto goes: the Israeli and the Palestine side will not be able to achieve a peace agreement. And, so as not to ruin chances at accord with the Islamic world, the Americans are now trying to offer concessions to the Muslims in the Balkans, the ones in Bosnia and Kosovo. In a word, to Washington the Balkans are serving as a reserve territory or a testing ground where, they believe, they might still be able to reach agreement with the Islamic world.

Whatever “Big Brother” says must be carried out unconditionally. I took this gathering in Bratislava seriously enough to inform Chancellor Schröder about it in a letter. My main motive was to prevent any future breech of international law. May the case of Serbia be the last such case. For, if I believe that I can ignore international law whenever it stands as an obstacle to my interests, then I am leaving the door wide open to a new war in Europe.

After Serbia, i.e. Kosovo, we had clashes in Macedonia. Until then, we were constantly showering Skoplje [the capital of the FYR Macedonia – trans. note] with praises. They disciplinedly carried out all our demands. And then the West suddenly changed its policy and extended support to the Albanian armed rebellion. What message were we sending to the Macedonian government? That violence pays off.

Let us return to Kosovo. As both member and Vice President of the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly, I can claim with full responsibility that, in the summer of 1998, 90% of us were against the use of any kind of military force against Belgrade outside the provisions of the UN. What remains for us after the bombing of Serbia? To choose: either to bring down the edifice that has secured the peace for us in Europe since 1945 – which is precisely what the Americans are doing, either alone or with the help of the British, or to say: my dear good people, we must seek to return to the rules of behavior provided by the UN.

In a word, it occasionally appears to me that the Americans are now acting in the same way that the German statesman Bismarck did. On one occasion he said that Balkan unrest and conflict were in the German interest, as this kept German adversaries in a constant state of tension. Is not Washington 's present aim identical, namely, to interfere with European efforts at creating an autonomous, independent European policy?

Finally, some mention should be made here of the relations between Western Europe and Russia. In the case they are normal and good, then that would raise the question of NATO's continued existence. The Americans invented the conflict in the Balkans in order to prevent the Europeans from thinking that NATO is no longer needed. There are people at important positions in the EU who think that there is a constant in American, and possibly British, policy, that, within the European Union – as well as Turkey – power must never come into the hands of people who might bring into question Washington's direct influence on Europe….”

http://serbblog.blogspot.com/2008/03/interview-with-willy-wimmer-americans.html






Edited by Bankotsu - 18-Jun-2008 at 07:32
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2008 at 17:46
So because some Albanians joined Nazi Germany, like the Finns did by the way, they are the scum of the earth and deserve to die?
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2008 at 18:28
Originally posted by Al Jassas

So because some Albanians joined Nazi Germany, like the Finns did by the way, they are the scum of the earth and deserve to die?
 
Al-Jassas


Not to mention that in the closing months of the second World War Serbian royalists aka Cetinks also began cooperating with the Nazis and the Ustasa movement due to the Partizan victories.


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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2008 at 18:59
"So because some Albanians joined Nazi Germany, like the Finns did by the way, they are the scum of the earth and deserve to die?
 
Al-Jassas"
 
Please don't bring strawmen arguements into it. No one said that.
 
"Not to mention that in the closing months of the second World War Serbian royalists aka Cetinks also began cooperating with the Nazis and the Ustasa movement due to the Partizan victories."
 
Chetniks fought with the Nazis against the Ustashe because the communists started winning the war and it was more evident. The Chetniks were Royalists. They fought for that ideaology and didn't like either side. Compared to say for example the Bosniaks who joined for Jihad which the Mufti of Jerusalem was more then happy to back.
 
 
 
Adolph Hitler Meets with Grand Mufti Amin Al Husseini. Grand Mufti Amin Al Husseini of Jerusalem organises recruitment to Bosnia's and Kosovo's Muslim Nazi SS divisions. Another prominent Kosovar Albanian Muslim, Bedri Pejani, was appointed to committee the Nazi occupation authorities established to rule the Nazi-created Greater Albania. Pejani announced a plan to create a Greater Islamic State consisting of Albania, Bosnia-Hercegovina, and the Sandzak/Rashka region of Serbia. The plan was presented to the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin el Husseini, who approved of the Pejani plan because it was seen as being in the interests of Islam.

On April 17,1944, pursuant to instructions by Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler, an Albanian Waffen SS Division, the 21st Waffen Gebirgs Division der SS "Skanderbeg" or "Skenderbeg" (Albanische Nr.1), was formed, which occupied and ethnically cleansed Kosovo-Metohija of Orthodox Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and other non-Albanians. Himmler envisioned the formation of two Albanian SS Divisions, but the war ended before the second could be formed. Approximately 300 Albanian troops in the Bosnian Muslim 13th Waffen Gebirgs Division der SS "Handzar" or "Handschar" were transferred to the newly forming SS division. The Skanderbeg Division was made up of 6,491 ethnic Albanian Muslims, two-thirds of whom were from Kosovo-Metohija, "Kosovars". To this Albanian Muslims core were added German troops,Reichdeutsche from Austria and Volkdeutsche officers,NCOs and enlisted men transferred from the 7th SS Mountain Division "Prinz Eugen" or "Princ Eugen", then stationed in Bosnia-Hercegovina.The Skanderbeg Division was made up of Albanian Muslims of the Bektashi and Sunni sects of Wahhabi Islam. The total strength of the Skanderbeg Division was 8,500-9,000 men. The Kosovar Albanian Muslim Skanderbeg Nazi SS Division was created to establish a Greater Albania. In fact, from 1941 to 1944, there was a Greater Albania which Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini created.

On July 28, 1944 in the village of Velika in the Lim region of Montenegro, Skanderbeg massacred 428 Serbs of which 120 were children and burned around 300 houses during Operation Draufgegner, in a joint attack with the 7th Prinz Eugen Division. The Kosovar Albanian Skanderbeg SS Division drove out or ethnically cleansed approximately 10,000 Kosovo Serbian families, most of whom fled as refugees to Serbia while Albanian colonists from Albania entered Kosovo and took over their lands, homes, and possessions.

The 21st SS Division Skanderbeg played a role in the Holocaust or Shoah, the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem,the extermination of European Jewry. The first operation of Skanderbeg in Kosovo-Metohija was the raid on Kosovo Jews in Pristina which occurred on May 14,1944. The Albanian Muslim SS troops raided apartments and homes where Kosovo Jews lived, looted their possessions, and rounded them up for deportation to the Nazi concentration camp at "Bergen-Belsen", where they were "Gassed". Kosovo Jews were subsequently placed in makeshift jails. The 21st SS Division Skanderbeg apprehended 281 Kosovo Jews, which included men, women, and children.From May to June, 1944, Skanderbeg apprehended a total of 519 Kosovo Serbs and Jews. In Kosovo (Today), the small Jewish population was ethnically cleansed out of Kosovo in 1999 along with Kosovo Serbs and other non-Albanians after NATO troops occupied the Serbian province. The Kosovo Jews fled to Belgrade. There are no more Jews living in Kosovo today, which is under NATO military occupation.

Kosovo-Metohija is the cradle of the Serbian Orthodox church and of Serbian culture. The towns, cities, and villages all have Serbian names from the medieval period when it was part of Serbia. The oldest Serbian Orthodox churches are located in Kosovo. Albanian settlement and colonization during the Ottoman Turkish period could not erase its Serbian heritage. Moreover, Kosovo-Metohija was never a part of Albania. In fact, there had never been an Albanian state until 1912.

History is in many ways a myth we create for ourselves. History is constantly falsified to justify wars and territorial claims. Albanian apologists have falsified the role Albania played in the Holocaust to justify an illegal US/NATO war against Serbia and to allow for the creation of a Greater Albania that would include the Serbian province of Kosovo-Metohija. The Albanian role in the Holocaust was falsified and manipulated to advance the creation of an "independent" Islamic Kosovo, an ethnically pure Albania statelet, a second Islamic Albanian state in eastern Europe.
 
 
Islam Under The Swastika

Grand Mufti Amin Al Husseini of Jerusalem organises recruitment to Bosnia's and Kosovo's Muslim Nazi SS divisions. Another prominent Kosovar Albanian Muslim, Bedri Pejani, was appointed to committee the Nazi occupation authorities established to rule the Nazi-created Greater Albania. Pejani announced a plan to create a Greater Islamic State consisting of Albania, Bosnia-Hercegovina, and the Sandzak/Rashka region of Serbia. The plan was presented to the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin el Husseini, who approved of the Pejani plan because it was seen as being in the interests of Islam.

On April 17,1944, pursuant to instructions by Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler, an Albanian Waffen SS Division, the 21st Waffen Gebirgs Division der SS "Skanderbeg" or "Skenderbeg" (Albanische Nr.1), was formed, which occupied and ethnically cleansed Kosovo-Metohija of Orthodox Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and other non-Albanians. Himmler envisioned the formation of two Albanian SS Divisions, but the war ended before the second could be formed. Approximately 300 Albanian troops in the Bosnian Muslim 13th Waffen Gebirgs Division der SS "Handzar" or "Handschar" were transferred to the newly forming SS division. The Skanderbeg Division was made up of 6,491 ethnic Albanian Muslims, two-thirds of whom were from Kosovo-Metohija, "Kosovars". To this Albanian Muslims core were added German troops,Reichdeutsche from Austria and Volkdeutsche officers,NCOs and enlisted men transferred from the 7th SS Mountain Division "Prinz Eugen" or "Princ Eugen", then stationed in Bosnia-Hercegovina.The Skanderbeg Division was made up of Albanian Muslims of the Bektashi and Sunni sects of Wahhabi Islam. The total strength of the Skanderbeg Division was 8,500-9,000 men. The Kosovar Albanian Muslim Skanderbeg Nazi SS Division was created to establish a Greater Albania. In fact, from 1941 to 1944, there was a Greater Albania which Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini created.

On July 28, 1944 in the village of Velika in the Lim region of Montenegro, Skanderbeg massacred 428 Serbs of which 120 were children and burned around 300 houses during Operation Draufgegner, in a joint attack with the 7th Prinz Eugen Division. The Kosovar Albanian Skanderbeg SS Division drove out or ethnically cleansed approximately 10,000 Kosovo Serbian families, most of whom fled as refugees to Serbia while Albanian colonists from Albania entered Kosovo and took over their lands, homes, and possessions.

The 21st SS Division Skanderbeg played a role in the Holocaust or Shoah, the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem,the extermination of European Jewry. The first operation of Skanderbeg in Kosovo-Metohija was the raid on Kosovo Jews in Pristina which occurred on May 14,1944. The Albanian Muslim SS troops raided apartments and homes where Kosovo Jews lived, looted their possessions, and rounded them up for deportation to the Nazi concentration camp at "Bergen-Belsen", where they were "Gassed". Kosovo Jews were subsequently placed in makeshift jails. The 21st SS Division Skanderbeg apprehended 281 Kosovo Jews, which included men, women, and children.From May to June, 1944, Skanderbeg apprehended a total of 519 Kosovo Serbs and Jews. In Kosovo (Today), the small Jewish population was ethnically cleansed out of Kosovo in 1999 along with Kosovo Serbs and other non-Albanians after NATO troops occupied the Serbian province. The Kosovo Jews fled to Belgrade. There are no more Jews living in Kosovo today, which is under NATO military occupation.

Kosovo-Metohija is the cradle of the Serbian Orthodox church and of Serbian culture. The towns, cities, and villages all have Serbian names from the medieval period when it was part of Serbia. The oldest Serbian Orthodox churches are located in Kosovo. Albanian settlement and colonization during the Ottoman Turkish period could not erase its Serbian heritage. Moreover, Kosovo-Metohija was never a part of Albania. In fact, there had never been an Albanian state until 1912.

History is in many ways a myth we create for ourselves. History is constantly falsified to justify wars and territorial claims. Albanian apologists have falsified the role Albania played in the Holocaust to justify an illegal US/NATO war against Serbia and to allow for the creation of a Greater Albania that would include the Serbian province of Kosovo-Metohija. The Albanian role in the Holocaust was falsified and manipulated to advance the creation of an "independent" Islamic Kosovo, an ethnically pure Albania statelet, a second Islamic Albanian state in eastern Europe.
 
The Bosnian Muslim Nazi 13th SS "Handzar" or "Handschar" division was a mountain infantry formation, known by the Germans as "Gebirgsjäger". It was used to conduct operations against Yugoslav Partisans, Jews and Serbs in the Balkan Mountains.

The Kama Division was the second Bosnian Muslim Nazi SS Division formed by Heinrich Himmler. The first Bosnian Muslim Nazi SS Division was the Handzar Division formed in 1943. The Kama and Handzar Divisions were formed by Himmler and Bosnian Muslim political leaders to advance the goals of Bosnian Muslim nationalism by achieving "autonomy" for a Bosnian Muslim state. Kama and Handzar were perceived as the armed forces of a newly-emerging Bosnian Muslim autonomous statelet. Kama and Handzar are essential to any understanding of the development of Bosnian Muslim nationalism.

Adolf Hitler and Heinrich Himmler developed and originated this strategy or policy of using Islam to advance their geopolitical objectives. The precursors to this policy can be found in the Austro-Hungarian Empire's exploitation and manipulation of Bosnian Muslim, Albanian Muslim, and Sandzak Muslim troops to advance its agendas in the Balkans. Hitler and Himmler developed this concept most fully and completely in the 20th century. The historical antecedents and origins of Zbiniew Brzezinski's policies in arming and training the Afghan mujahedeen and Ossama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda can be traced to Adolf Hitler and Heinrich Himmler. Bill Clinton was not the first to exploit the Islamic jihad to serve a national interest by allowing Al-Qaeda to infiltrate Bosnia from 1992 to 1995 and then Kosovo in 1998. The precursors and antecedents of this policy go back to Himmler and Hitler.
 
 
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2008 at 19:01
Another interesting one. This one deals specifically with Racak and the KLA.
 
 
Remember why NATO spent 78-days bombing Yugoslavia in the spring of 1999?

There was the ethnic cleansing. The atrocities. The refugees chased out of Kosovo by the Serb army. The mass graves. The heaps of bodies tossed into vats of sulphuric acid at the Trepca mines.

NATO spokesman Jamie Shea said there were 100,000 Kosovo Albanian Muslims unaccounted for.

Problem is, none of it happened.

NATO's original estimate of 100,000 ethnic Albanians slaughtered, later revised downward to 10,000, turns out to be considerably exaggerated.

Dr. Peter Markesteyn, a Winnipeg forensic pathologist, was among the first war crimes investigators to arrive in Kosovo after NATO ended its bombing campaign.

"We were told there were 100,000 bodies everywhere," said Dr. Markesteyn. "We performed 1,800 autopsies -- that's it."

Fewer than 2,000 corpses. None found in the Trepca mines. No remains in the vats of sulphuric acid. Most found in isolated graves -- not in the mass graves NATO warned about. And no clue as to whether the bodies were those of KLA terrorists, civilians, even whether they were Serbs or ethnic Albanians.

No wonder then that of all the incidents on which Slobodan Milosevic has been indicted for war crimes, the total body count is not 100,000, not 10,000, not even 1,800 -- but 391!

It was Walker, at the time head of the Kosovo Verification Mission (KVM) who, on the morning of January 16, 1999, led the press to the Kosovo village of Racak, a KLA stronghold. There some 20 bodies were found in a shallow trench, and 20 more were found scattered throughout the village. The KLA terrorists, and Walker, alleged that masked Serb policemen had entered the village the previous day, and killed men, women and children at close range, after torturing and mutilating them. Chillingly, the Serb police were said to have whistled merrily as they went about their work of slaughtering the villagers.

Clinton's Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, as eager to scratch her ever itchy trigger finger as her boss was to scratch his illimitable sexual itches, demanded that Yugoslavia be bombed immediately. Albright, like a kid agonizingly counting down the hours to Christmas, would have to wait until after Milosevic's rejection of NATO's ultimata at Rambouillet to get her wish.

But not everyone was so sure that Walker's story was to be believed. The French newspaper La Monde had some trouble swallowing the story. It reported on Jan. 21, 1999, a few days after the incident, that an Associated Press TV crew had filmed a gun battle at Racak between Serb police and KLA terrorists. Indeed, the crew was present because the Serbs had tipped them off that they were going to enter the village to arrest a man accused of shooting a police officer. Also present were two teams of KVM monitors.

It seems unlikely that if you're about to carry out a massacre that you would invite the press -- and international observers -- to watch.

The film showed that as soon as the Serbs entered Racak they came under heavy fire from KLA terrorists positioned in the surrounding hills. The idea that the police could dig a trench and then kill villagers at close range while under attack troubled La Monde. So too did the fact that, entering the village after the fire fight to assess the damage and interview the villagers, the KVM observers saw no sign of a massacre. What's more, the villagers said nothing about a massacre either.

Yet, when Walker returned the next day with the press -- at the KLA's invitation -- there was the trench with the bodies.

Could the police have returned later on and carried out the massacre under cover of darkness?

That seems unlikely. Racak is a KLA stronghold. Serb police had already discovered that if they were going to enter the village they would have to deal with the guerillas. How could they torture, mutilate and cold-bloodedly kill villagers at close range while harassed by KLA gunfire?

And why, wondered La Monde, were there few signs of spent cartridges and blood at the trench?

And now there's a report that the Finnish forensic pathologists who investigated the incident on behalf of the European Union, say there was no evidence of a massacre. In an article to be published in Forensic Science International at the end of February, the Finnish team writes that none of the bodies were mutilated, there was no evidence of torture, and only one was shot at close range.

The pathologists say Walker was quick to come to the conclusion that there was a massacre, even though the evidence was weak.

And they point out that there is no evidence that the deceased were from Racak.

The KLA terrorists, the Serbs charge, faked the massacre by laying out their fallen comrades in the trench they, themselves, prepared, and the United States used the staged massacre as a pretext for the bombing.
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2008 at 19:30
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2008 at 20:31
The Ustase were NAZIS - the first Slavic Nazis in that region, the 2nd the Slavic Muslim contigents, the Royalists - Cetniks joined the Ustase to fight the communists and the Nazis. Not to fight against the Cetniks. You live in Bizarro world.
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2008 at 20:38
Hello Carpathian
 
Have you ever took the time to read why the muslim SS and Albania SS units formed in the beginning and why did they seek Nazi support?
 
Lots of groups asked for Nazi support and got it and nobody said anything about the blood on their hands especially the Chetniks who killed as much if not more from muslims, Croats and Roma as Albanians or Bosniacs did. Vladimir Žerjavić a Croat and by no means a muslim said that some 50k muslims perished on the hands of the Chetnik (in the beginning of the war), what did you think they would do, bow at the altar of Serbian fascism? Nazis were the only way they could survive and most didn't even join, the largest number of the 13 SS division was 21000 and evenly distributed between Catholics and muslims both of which were victims of the chetniks.
 
As for Amin Al-Husaini, the guys own country was being stripped from under his feet and given to strangers and he was prepared to deal with the devil, which he did, to liberate his country. Carl Mannerheim was a Nazi collaborator and yet he is considered a hero.
 
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2008 at 22:50
"The Ustase were NAZIS - the first Slavic Nazis in that region, the 2nd the Slavic Muslim contigents, the Royalists - Cetniks joined the Ustase to fight the communists and the Nazis. Not to fight against the Cetniks. You live in Bizarro world."
 
Ah i mis typed. I meant that the Chetniks fought with the Nazis against the Partizans which were communists. Thank you for the tactful correction.
 
"Hello Carpathian
 
Have you ever took the time to read why the muslim SS and Albania SS units formed in the beginning and why did they seek Nazi support?"

Of course I did. Coming from a country that worked with the Nazis in order to fight off the communist USSR I find the topic interesting. Why did the Muslims in Bosnia do it? Because they were a minority in a region they more or less ruled a few decades ago under the Ottoman Empire. And they couldn't opress their Christian subjects as they did before.
 
(Encyclopedia Britannica, Edition 1910, Vol 4, page 282, Entry Bosnia and Herzegovina, Religion. Quote)
In 1895 43% of the population were Orthodox Christians [i.e. Serbs], 35% Moslems and 21% Roman Catholics [i.e. Croats].
( end quote ).
 
One of many episodes of Bosnian Muslim religious fervor is described by the
Encyclopedia (Britannica, Edition 1910, Volume 4, page 284).
(That's true: Edition *1910*, i.e. before WWI, when the memories were fresh!)
 
The reform of the Ottoman government contemplated by the sultan Mahmud II. (1808-1839) was BITTERLY RESENTED in Bosnia, where Turkish prestige had already been weakened by the establishment of Servian autonomy under Karageorge. Many of the janissaries had married and settled on the land, forming a strongly conservative and FANATICAL caste, friendly to the Moslem nobles, who now dreaded the curtailment of their own privileges. Their opportunity came in 1820, when the Porte was striving to repress the insurrection in Moldavia, Albania and Greece. A first Bosnian revolt was crushed in 1821, a second, due principally to the massacres of the jannissaries, was quelled with much bloodshed in 1827. After Russo-Turkish War of 1828-29, a further attempt at reform was initiated by the sultan and his grand vizier, Reshid Pasha. Two years later came a most formidable outbreak: THE SULTAN WAS DENOUNCED AS FALSE TO ISLAM, AND THE BOSNIAN NOBLES GATHERED IN BANJALUKA (Bosnia), DETERMINED TO MARCH TO CONSTANTINOPLE, AND RECONQUER THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE FOR THE TRUE [Islam] FAITH.
A HOLY WAR WAS PREACHED BY THEIR LEADER, HUSSEIN AGA BERBERI, A BRILLIANT SOLDIER AND ORATOR, WHO CALLED HIMSELF "ZMAJ BOSANSKI", AND WAS REGARDED BY HIS FOLLOWERS AS A SAINT. The Moslems of Herzegovina, under Ali Pasha Rizvanbegovic, remained loyal to the Porte, but in Bosnia Hussein Aga encountered little resistance. At Kossovo he was reinforced by 20,000 Albanians, led by Mustapha Pasha, and within a few weeks the united armies occupied the whole of Bulgaria, and large part of Macedonia. Their career was checked by Reshid Pasha, who persuaded the two victorious commanders to intrigue against one another, secured the division of their forces, and then fell upon each in turn.
The rout of the Albanians at Prilipe and the capture of Mustapha at Scutari were followed by an invasion of Bosnia. After a desperate defence, Hussein Aga fled to Esseg in Croatia-Slavonia, his appeal for pardon was rejected, and in 1832 he was banished for life in Tribizond.
The power of the Bosnian nobles, though shaken by their defeat, remained unbroken, and they resisted vigorously when their kapetanates were abolished in 1837, and again when A MEASURE OF EQUALITY BEFORE THE LAW was conceded to the Christians in 1839.
In Herzegovina, Ali Pasha Rizvanbegovic reaped the reward of his fidelity. HE WAS LEFT FREE TO TYRANNIZE OVER HIS CHRISTIAN SUBJECTS, a king in all but name.
 
"Lots of groups asked for Nazi support and got it and nobody said anything about the blood on their hands especially the Chetniks who killed as much if not more from muslims, Croats and Roma as Albanians or Bosniacs did. Vladimir Žerjavić a Croat and by no means a muslim said that some 50k muslims perished on the hands of the Chetnik (in the beginning of the war), what did you think they would do, bow at the altar of Serbian fascism? Nazis were the only way they could survive and most didn't even join, the largest number of the 13 SS division was 21000 and evenly distributed between Catholics and muslims both of which were victims of the chetniks."
 
Chetniks didn't have the man power to kill 50K people. You are pulling that number out of a magician's hat. Chetniks were simply left over members of the Yugoslavian Royalist military and some volunteers. Not religious fanatics like the Muslim SS units.
 
Vladimir Žerjavić being a Croat probably aligns himself with the Partizani or Usashe. What i've read from he seems to try to sugar coat the murderous regime the Ustashe were and how many Serbs were slaughtered in their camps. So yea, crap source to say the least. You trying to say that the Muslims did what they did in reveange for what the Chetniks supposedly did (according to the Croat (dis)information Centre) is a joke.
 
"As for Amin Al-Husaini, the guys own country was being stripped from under his feet and given to strangers and he was prepared to deal with the devil, which he did, to liberate his country. Carl Mannerheim was a Nazi collaborator and yet he is considered a hero."
 
His country was stripped from under his feet? This was in 1944, Israel has yet to be (re)made. In any case it doesn't justify the action of the SS Muslims in the Balkans, not by a long shot.
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  Quote vranakonti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2008 at 23:03

If you don't even know the sword that strikes you I feel all the more sorry for you.

 

What did Vaso witness? Colonists in Kosovo? Did I ever deny there were colonists in Kosovo?

 

Datas from Noel Malcoms;Kosovo a short history.(the translation is mine)

 

The serb official for Kosovo Djorde Kristic,described the colonization program,like an success:"we was only 24% of the region in 1919 but now we are up to 38%."It was the year 1928.

 


Also a quote from NM book:

 

The whole kosovar territory had 584'000 ha of arable lands,of which 200'000ha were expropriated and distribuited among the new serbian settlers.13'000 serbian familys (about 70'000,10% of the whole population)were settled in kosova.the state investment for the colonizaton was 10'000'000 dinars(180 million dollars).

 his source:

 

fonts:Krstic.Kolonizacja pg3/Obradovic.Agrarna reforma pg 201.Roux,Le Albanais,p195/Verli,reforma

 

 

I stated that some sources said there was a marginal majority to the Serbs, another to the Albanians. in the 1500s the Albanian population was 1.8 so we know that there was one change in a certain direction.

 

You stated smth and your Serbian source was saying smth else,so make up your mind.

 

 

Victims of what? What did the Serbs do to the Albanians (who got their land through displacing Serbs via their Turkish loyalty) in the Balkan wars? Perhaps this was when the Albanians were trying to form "Greater Albania" ? It looks to me like you are just sore that Albania lost the wars. Oh darn we wanted to take lands of Serbia, Montenegro, FYROM and Greece but darn they beat us. So mean of them!

Indeed we won the last war.

 

You don’t have a clue.For sure there was a slight change in the population balance in favour of the Albanians during ottomans times as it was a change favoring serbs during Stephan Dushans Serbian empire.And your claims that this was an organized process  are just erroneous Albanians repopulated those few lands that serbs gradually(in 500 years) abandoned, their political an cultural center was in Belgrade so was natural for them to move north. That of the Serbian suffering under the Albanian-Turkish rule is just Serbian invention to justify their later negative attitude against Albanians.

One of their myths, often called history ,is that of the Serbian emigration after the Austrian-Turkish war, from Kosovo, when indeed smth like that never happened in a large scale in Kosova. Funnily in Kosova during that war there was a pro Austrian uprising,under the lead the Albanian catholic Archbishop Pjeter Bogdani,and the fighting force was composed from both catholic and muslim Albanians.

 

Btw here you have the speech made by the Serbian King addressed to the serbuian people,when the Serbian attack in Kosova was ready to start.His motivation are totally different from yours or from those of the modern Serbian nationalist.

 

18 October 1912

 

 "The Turkish governments showed no interest in their duties towards their citizens and turned a deaf ear to all complaints and suggestions. Things got so far out of hand that no one was satisfied with the situation in Turkey in Europe. It became unbearable for the Serbs, the Greeks and for the Albanians, too.
    By the grace of God, I have therefore ordered my brave army to join in the Holy War to free our brethren and to ensure a better future.
    In Old Serbia, my army will meet not only upon Christian Serbs, but also upon Moslem Serbs, who are equally dear to us, and in addition to them, upon Christian and Moslem Albanians with whom our people have shared joy and sorrow for thirteen centuries now. To all of them we bring freedom, brotherhood and equality."

 

But he never practiced his own preaches.

 



You yourself admited that Tito wanted to absorb Albania. He opened the boarders between Kosovo and Albania. The Serbs were kicked out of their homes by the Albanians. The Albanians did not want to live alongside the Serbs in Kosovo.

 

Yes but  how do you intend to prove that this actually happened,and when?

 

 

Can you prove that? Prove to me that the Serbs took the Albanian land? And please not the rants of Vaso. I mean actual actions being taken. It is interesting to know how little it takes for you to justify violence, murder and slaugther of people. It makes me wonder if perhaps Vaso did have the right idea. After all how can one live with someone who is so quick and prone to violence? Obviously had this been the 1940s you'd have been one to join the Waffen SS Skanderbeg, and justify it as "well they're just colonists". It justifies it right?

 

Actual actions?Here you have some:

 

 

 

Leon Trotsky, writing this in January 1913 as an open letter in the (Menshevik) paper Luch ("The Ray") was addressing the "liberal" Russian chauvinist politician Pavel Miliukov:

 

Do not the facts, undeniable and irrefutable, force you to come to the conclusion that the Bulgars in Macedonia, the Serbs in old Serbia, in their national endeavor to correct data in the ethnological statistics that are not quite favorable to them, are engaged quite simply in systematic extermination of the Muslim population in the villages, towns and districts?

 

Quoting a Serbian soldier whose civil and political conscience had been revolted, Trotsky reported:

The horrors actually began as soon as we crossed the old frontier.... The darker the sky became, the more brightly the fearful illumination of the fires stood out against it. Burning was going on all around us. Entire Albanian villages had been turned into pillars of fire, dwellings, possessions accumulated by fathers and grandfathers were going up in flames, the picture was repeated the whole way to Skopje. There the Serbs broke into Turkish and Albanian houses and performed the same task in every case: plundering and killing. For two days before my arrival in Skopje the inhabitants had woken up to the sight of heaps of Albanian corpses with severed heads. Among the mass of soldiers you see Serb peasants who have come from every part of Serbia on the pretext of looking for their sons and brothers. They cross the plain of Kosovo and start plundering, from the area around Vranje the population has crossed over en masse into the Albanian villages to pick up whatever may catch the eye. Peasant women carry away even the doors and windows of Albanian houses.”

(See Leon Trotsky,The Balkan Wars—1912-1913, New York, 1980, p.267)

Fritz Magnussen, war correspondent for the Danish newspaper Riget

Serbian military activities in Macedonia have taken on the character of an extermination of the Arnaut population. The army is conducting an unspeakable war of atrocities. According to officers and soldiers, 3,000 Arnauts were slaughtered in the region between Kumanova / Kumanovo and Skopje and 5,000 near Prishtina. The Arnaut villages were surrounded and set on fire. The inhabitants were then chased from their homes and shot like rats. The Serbian soldiers delighted in telling me of the manhunts they had conducted.

Daily Telegraph

All the horrors of history have been outdone by the atrocious conduct of the troops of General Jankovic. On their march through Albania, the Serbs have treacherously slaughtered not only armed Albanians, but in their savagery even unarmed individuals - old people, women, children and babies at their mother's breasts.
    Drunk with victory, Serbian officers have proclaimed that the only way of pacifying Albania is to exterminate the Albanians. They slaughtered 3,000 people in the region between Kumanova / Kumanovo and Skopje alone. 5,000 Albanians were murdered by the Serbs in the Prishtina area. These people did not die with honour on the battlefield, but were slain in a series of gruesome raids. The Serbian soldiers have found new methods of butchery to satisfy their thirst for blood. Houses were set on fire in several villages and the inhabitants slaughtered like rats when they tried to flee the flames.

Anyone who denounces an Albanian to the Serbs can be sure that the Albanian will be executed. There were people who owed money to Moslem Albanians. They went and denounced them to the Serbs as traitors. The wretched Albanians were immediately hanged and the informers later found ways of acquiring the home and land of their victims for a ridiculously low price.

The following is from central Albania,not even in Kosova.

 The Albanische Korrespondenz reported from Trieste on 21 March 1913:

 The suffering in Albania has reached an unspeakable zenith. The Serbian troops who took Durrës (Durazzo) were immediately ordered to proceed into the countryside although no provision had been made for their food and drink. They were therefore forced to rely on food they confiscated from the population, which they did with exception cruelty. They took nine-tenths of all the stocks available, and refused to give written receipts for the goods they requisitioned.
    The Serbian troops not only confiscated goods for their own usage. They seized or destroyed all the food that fell into their hands. Ancient olive trees which had been planted in the Venetian period and had provided sustenance to generations were cut down by the Serbs. Farm animals were slain. No sheep, no chickens, no corn which the Serbs could get their hands on remained untouched. They conducted extensive raids and looted wherever they could. In Durrës (Durazzo), the Serbs loaded ships with carpets and other stolen goods for transportation to Salonika whence the cargo was transferred back to Belgrade. Even antique benches from the government offices in Durrës were confiscated and loaded onto the booty ships.

The following report was received from Durrës (Durazzo) on 6 March:

Serbian troops have burnt the following villages to the ground: Zeza, Larushk, Monikla, Sheh and Gromni. In Zeza, twenty women and girls were locked in their homes and burnt alive.
    The inhabitants of the village of Kruja-Kurbin have taken to the mountains, in order to save their lives, leaving behind all their possessions.

 

  On 20 March, the Neue Freie Presse reported:

On 7 March, the soldateska joined fanatic Orthodox priests in and around Gjakova / Djakovica to forcefully convert the Catholic population to the Orthodox faith. About 300 persons, men, women and children, among whom Pater Angelus Palic, were bound with ropes and forced under threat of death to convert. An Orthodox priest pointed to the soldiers standing by with their rifles in hand and said, "Either you sign the declaration that you have converted to the one true faith or these soldiers of God will send your souls to hell."
    All the prisoners then signed the forms prepared for them which contained a declaration of conversion to the Orthodox faith. Pater Angelus was the last. He was the only one of them who had the strength, in a calm and dignified manner, to refuse to give up his faith. Pater Angelus stood by his word, even when ordered three times to convert and even when entreated by the other forcefully converted Catholics. The result was one of the most appalling scenes imaginable in twentieth-century Europe.
    After a sign from the Orthodox priest, the soldiers fell upon the Franciscan, ripped off his tunic and began beating him with the butts of their rifles. Pater Angelus collapsed after several of his bones and ribs had been fractured. At this moment, the Orthodox priest stopped the soldiers and asked him if he was now willing to convert. Again he shook his head and said placidly, "No, I will not abandon my faith and break my oath." Pater Angelus was beaten with the rifle butts again until one of the soldiers plunged a bayonet through the priest's lungs and put an end to his suffering.

 

I was giving an example. And you STILL DIDN'T ANSWER MY QUESTION ABOUT SERBIAN MAJORITY SECTIONS OF KOSOVO. If they are the majority in those sections why can they not call for independence? What gives you the right over them.

 

Personally I have nothing against ,but in that case Albanians in South Serbia should have the right to secede  and join Kosova.

 

Ethnicly cleansed 900,000 of them in a week? When?

 

Killed 15,000? When?

 

Burned down 120,000 houses? When?

 

 

In June NATO and Yugoslavia signed a peace accord outlining troop withdrawal and the return of nearly one million ethnic Albanians as well as another 500,000 displaced within the province.

 

Source  Britannica

 

 

The others are official data’s that you can find by your own.

 

 

And their autonomy was taken away because when they did have autonomy the people in charged treated the Serbs like crap. They sought to get rid of the rest of the Serbs and unify with Albania. That is when Milosevic took the autonomy away.

 

That’s simply not true:

 

Serbian extremist views to you means anything that comes from a Serb. So please spare me the crap.

 

Be sure that the Serbian official history,doesn’t claim that we came from Caucasus,or  explain our presence with a post ww2 emigrantions,like you do.  


It is disgusting to hear your opinion and I wonder just how far your justification for such actions go. You sow what you reap? Show me how many mosques have been destroyed. I can show you hundreds of pictures of Churches.

 

Our reap is Independence ,and i can show you photos too but its not my intention.As i said for me a church and a mosque are exactly the same thing. But this is is disgusting:

  

It makes me wonder if perhaps Vaso did have the right idea

 

 

The League of Prizren as the British noted was made up of islamic fanatics with one goal in mind, Greater Albania. The building was a symbol of facism. So Facism and Islamic fanaticism and Greater Albania are important to your countrymen?

 

First of all you have to bring here names.I don’t doubt that actually a English said that but at least have the decency to bring his name.

 

 

Some info about the Prizren league:

 

The Treaty of San Stefano triggered profound anxiety among the Albanians meanwhile, and it spurred their leaders to organize a defense of the lands they inhabited. In the spring of 1878, influential Albanians in Constantinople--including Abdyl Frasheri, the Albanian national movement's leading figure during its early years--organized a secret committee to direct the Albanians' resistance. In May the group called for a general meeting of representatives from all the Albanian-populated lands. On June 10, 1878, about eighty delegates, mostly Muslim religious leaders, clan chiefs, and other influential people from the four Albanian-populated Ottoman vilayets, met in the Kosovo town of Prizren. The delegates set up a standing organization, the Prizren League, under the direction of a central committee that had the power to impose taxes and raise an army. The Prizren League worked to gain autonomy for the Albanians and to thwart implementation of the Treaty of San Stefano, but not to create an independent Albania.

In July 1878, the league sent a memorandum to the Great Powers at the Congress of Berlin, which was called to settle the unresolved problems of Turkish War, demanding that all Albanians be united in a single Ottoman province that would be governed from Bitola by a Turkish governor who would be advised by an Albanian committee elected by universal suffrage.

The Sublime Porte, in fact, armed the Albanians and allowed them to levy taxes, and when the Ottoman army withdrew from areas awarded to Montenegro under the Treaty of Berlin, Roman Catholic Albanian tribesmen simply took control. The Albanians' successful resistance to the treaty forced the Great Powers to alter the border, returning Gusinje and Plav to the Ottoman Empire and granting Montenegro the mostly Muslim Albanian-populated coastal town of Ulcinj. But the Albanians there refused to surrender as well. Finally, the Great Powers blockaded Ulcinj by sea and pressured the Ottoman authorities to bring the Albanians under control. The Great Powers decided in 1881 to cede Greece only Thessaly and the small Albanian-populated district of Arta.

Faced with growing international pressure "to pacify" the refractory Albanians, the sultan dispatched a large army under Dervish Turgut Pasha to suppress the Prizren League and deliver Ulcinj to Montenegro. Albanians loyal to the empire supported the Sublime Porte's military intervention. In April 1881, Dervish Pasha's 10,000 men captured Prizren and later crushed the resistance at Ulcinj. The Prizren League's leaders and their families were arrested and deported. Frasheri, who originally received a death sentence, was imprisoned until 1885 and exiled until his death seven years later. In the three years it survived, the Prizren League effectively made the Great Powers aware of the Albanian people and their national interests. Montenegro and Greece received much less Albanian-populated territory than they would have won without the league's resistance.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+al0021)

How is that there are a lot of Albanians in those countries? Simple, those Albanians left Albania and went to someone else's country. And then claim it as their own. And even if they had been there since forever, what gives them the right to say "okay this is my country now." And use violence?

 

You are speaking without thinking,and you don’t look very neutral.As I said I would like to see some proofs backing your statements:

 


"Go read, in general I mean." Is what you said. This suggest you are saying I havn't read at all. And you are saying you did not call me stupid? Please save what little respect you have and don't bs me and the people reading this thread.

 

Obviously you don’t know the difference between ignorance and stupidity,and as I said I never called you stupid.And spare me the rest please.

 

 

Here you have another NYT article:

 

 

 The World; Kosovo's Brutal Game of See-Saw

ANTAGONISMS between Serbs and Albanians have marked Kosovo's history since the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire. Christian Serb forces seized the province in October 1912 during the first Balkan War. Massive recriminations against local Muslim Albanians followed, including the burning of villages and forced conversions, which were described by reporters, including the Vienna correspondent of the Ukrainian newspaper Kievskaia Mysl, Lev Bronshtein, later known as Leon Trotsky. At the time, Serbs made up about 25 percent of a population of about 300,000; most of the rest were Muslims who identified themselves as either Turks or Albanians. An estimated 20,000 Albanians were killed.

Under Serb rule, periodic revolts by Albanian guerrillas known as kacaks broke out. The Government confiscated land for Serb settlers, many of whom formed armed bands known as chetniks to fight the kacaks. Perhaps 70,000 Serbs settled between the wars; nearly 100,000 Albanians were driven out.

When Italy and Germany occupied Kosovo in 1941, the Albanians, armed by the fascists, forced out at least 40,000 Serbs and Montenegrins.

Then Tito's partisans took the province, after quelling a rebellion that left as many as 10,000 Albanians dead. Tito largely suppressed ethnic rivalries and in 1974 granted Kosovo autonomy; harassment of Serbs increased and perhaps as many as 50,000 left. Slobodan Milosevic, as Serbia's President, revoked Kosovo's autonomy in 1989. Some 200,000 Serbs were left -- 10 percent of the population. CHRIS HEDGES

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C07E6DA1030F93BA15750C0A96F958260



Edited by vranakonti - 18-Jun-2008 at 23:06
Ti Shqipri m ep nder...
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Al Jassas View Drop Down
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2008 at 23:40
Here are some examples of how nice Serbian chetnik were to the Bosnians who issued fatwas prohibiting any support for Nazis and urging them to go to Jihad against them:
 
1150 killed in Stolac in July 41
2050 kiled in Foca and Gorazde in Dec-Jan 41/42
9000+ again in Foca and Sandjak 44-45
and many others.
As for Amin Al-Husaini, read these two articles in Wikipedia:
 
 
all these terror acts were protected by British official who continued to support zionist terror groups despite the fact that several British nationals were targets.
 
By Carpathian
"Of course I did. Coming from a country that worked with the Nazis in order to fight off the communist USSR I find the topic interesting. Why did the Muslims in Bosnia do it? Because they were a minority in a region they more or less ruled a few decades ago under the Ottoman Empire. And they couldn't opress their Christian subjects as they did before."
 
This really shows how sick you are, I really pity you.
 
Al-Jassas


Edited by Al Jassas - 18-Jun-2008 at 23:45
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 00:13
So the Bosnians and other Muslims and other Muslims in the Balkans joined the Nazis because they had a perverse idea to oppress? Don't you think that the war and recent aggression to all things Muslim since the late 1800s had a factor in it? You fancy a rather sickening theory. I had family members in the original Yugoslav Kingdom Army prior to WWII, including my great geat grandfather. However, that was prewar. Following the outbreak of war all family members that participated in any war effort were Partizans. So this is not a wishful thinking rant either. I just fail to believe that a group of people that had witnessed some intense agression would only join to opress. Most of these people had families to think off. 
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