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Topic ClosedGjergj Kastrioti (Skenderbey)

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Gjergj Kastrioti (Skenderbey)
    Posted: 14-Sep-2007 at 03:59
TO FURTHER EXPOUND ON THE ILLYRIAN ALBANIAN ISSUE OF CULTURE & LINGUISTICS I WILL PROVIDE A QUOTE FROM YOUR OWN ALBANIAN SCHOLARS. THE FACT REMAINS UNTIL FURTHER EVIDENCE IS PRESENTED THAT THE CLOSEST TRUTH IS THAT THE ALBANIANS ENTERED THE BALKANS VIA THE CASPIAN SEA FROM ASIA AS HAS BEEN PROPOSED BY MANY HISTORIANS. There is an Illyrian myth, with which Albanian culture has been flirting for at least 150 years, and as a myth it can't be questioned (for it has all the answers). There is also a very tentative Illyrian science, based mainly on archaeology, and on some data transmitted by Ancient Greek and Latin Historians.

These inscriptions, being totally alien to Albanian, show that the Illyrian question is extremely complicated, and that it isn't likely to be resolved, unless fundamental epigraphic discoveries are made.


The great Illyrologist Hans Krahe himself was no supporter of the Illyrian theory about the origin of Albanians. In his late years he came to understand that most of his paleolinguistic theories were generally wrong. Krahe started by finding Illyrian traces everywhere in Europe, but then it was made clear that all he had found were Indo-European traces -- and nobody had any doubt that Indo-European tribes had been in Europe for a long many years.


Onomastics is of no great help in settling linguistic and ethnogenetic issues. Let's have a look at some important place names in Albanian territories, like Dajti, Shkodra, Durresi, Vlora, Burreli, Drini, Shkumbini, Tirana, etc. Are they Albanian? We can't say that, for there are no Albanian words that would explain them (as we explain, for example, Kruja with "krue" - fountain).


This might well be true, but seems pathetic in front of the fact that we can't explain through Albanian words the place names we currently use, let alone the Illyrian ones. So what?


Let's move up in time, and reach the Middle Ages. In the Middle Ages the Albanians were somewhere there, though their first mention is in the 11th century (or 12th, I'm not sure). Where were they living? Where are the places they have named after their common words (technically called appellatives)? The south is full -- literally full -- of Slavic place names, especially the areas of Vlora, Tepelena, Skrapar, Mallakaster, Gramsh, Cermenike, Moker, Korce, Erseke.


My personal opinion is that the issue of Albanians descending or not from Illyrians doesn't deserve the interest it has traditionally aroused. There is absolutely NO Illyrian cultural legacy among Albanians today. In a certain sense, Illyrians (with their less fortunate fellows, the Pelasgians) are a pure creation of Albanian romanticism.


Ardian Vebiu
Albanian historian                                                                                           

Edited by Konstantine - 14-Sep-2007 at 09:04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2007 at 06:21
YOU WANTED SOURCES FOR THE POPULATIONS OF GREEKS IN WHAT IS CENTRAL ALBANIA! In that interval, thanks to Byzantine sources, the name Albanians is first mentioned from Ptolemy in the eleventh century and a significant part of the area they inhabited progressively but in a fairly compressed period of time came under the authority of Serbian rulers and administrators.

However, even before those conquests, areas were gifted to Slav nobles and Serbs were even chosen to lead Albanian insurgents. This happened for the first time in the ninth century when, during his imprisonment in Prespa, the Serbian Zupan, Vladimir, married Kosara, the daughter of Emperor Samuel who bestowed him with the princedom in northern Albania.

Fifty years later, the people "called out for BULGARIAN Emperor Tihomir" to lead an uprising against the Greeks in central Albania. Just before his death, Petar Dejan, an insurgent from Nis, united his warriors with insurgents from central Albania who also "cried out" for him to be "emperor". But instead of attacking, the Pravoslav soldiers defected and proclaimed Tihomir, one of their own soldiers, as their emperor. Tihomir unfortunately died in battle leaving his army under Delyan's command.

Delyan immediately began a military campaign to recover his grandfather's (Samoil's) kingdom by sending troops to Dyrrachium and, with the support of the local people, took that theme. He then sent a large army to besiege Solun. At the sight of Delyan's immense army, Pravoslav Emperor Michael IV, who at the time was waiting for him, fled in terror to Tsari Grad leaving Manuel Ivets in command of the Pravoslav army. Instead of fighting Ivets defected to Delyan's side, joining forces with the rebels.

Exploiting the panic which had risen in the ranks of the Pravoslav army, Delyan dispatched his armies in several directions. One, led by Anthimus, made its way south reaching as deep as the town Tiva and spreading the revolt into Epirus and conquering the theme of Naupactos. Another army took Demetrias (Volos in Thessaly) and so on. Soon Delyan was in possession of a large territory encompassing the greater part of Samoil's kingdom. Soon the Byzantines eliminated the resistance of Delyan's voivods Botko around Sofia and Manuil Ivats in Prilep.
In short, for almost four centuries certain parts of the territory which today belongs to Albania were under the authority of medieval Serbian rulers. The conquests of that time, regardless whether they were really conquests, could not be characterised as international conflicts in a contemporary sense, at least not in relation to the Albanian population of the time because the Albanians were then still not structured or constituted as a self-standing body.
Hugo Roth. Albanians & the Kosovo Region                                                           


Edited by Konstantine - 15-Sep-2007 at 10:04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2007 at 09:00
I apologize for calling the Albanians , Squiptari. by Konstantine

Apologizing is not enough, you should learn that the Albanians since the 18th century prefere to call themselves Shqiptar. And you see, this is different from Squiptari etc. replied Arber Z
                                                                                                                    YOU KNOW WHAT ? I TRIED TO BE CIVILIZED ABOUT THIS BUT SINCE YOU WANT TO BE BARBAROUS. I RETRACT MY APOLOGY IN FACT "SHQUIPTAR". This name is not Indo-European in origin and contains in it the Ural-Altaic suffix "ar" or "tar". NOT UNLIKE: "Khaz-AR", "Av-AR", "Magy-AR", "Bulg-AR", "Hung-AR", "Ta-TAR" - "Shqip-TAR" HENCE THE ORIGIN OF THE ALBANIAN THE STEPPES BEYOND THE CASPIAN SEA. ALSO THERE WERE NO RECORDS OF ALBANIAN MAJORITY UNTIL THE LATE 1600's. THE ALBANIANS WERE ORIGINALLY A MINOR TRIBAL CLAN BASED GROUP UNFAMILLIAR WITH EACH OTHER AND MOSTLY DWELLING IN THE MOUNTAINS OF THE NORTH SINCE 1079 A.D ALBANIAN NOBILITY HAD STRONG TIES TO THE ORIGINAL ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN FAMILIES THAT ESTABLISHED ITS POWER BASE CENTURIES BEFORE. THE OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE OF CHRONICLERS AND NOBLE EPIROTAN PRINCES STATE THEIR CONNECTION TO THE ANCIENT EPIROTAN LINEAGE ,NO MENTION OF ANY DARDANIAN, ILLYRIAN OR NON BYZANTINE TRIBAL ORIGINS ARE MENTIONED. ONLY SLAVIC ,GREEK (EPIROTAN) & TURKISH & ITALIAN PERSONAGES ARE MENTIONED IN THE CHRONICLES OF ISKANDER BEY (ALEXANDROS THE GREAT) TO WHOM HE WAS COMPARED ARE MENTIONED. THE TERM ALBANESE OR ALBAN WAS A LOOSE INTERPETATION OF THE TIME OF THE SUBJECT PEOPLES AND NOT A STATEHOOD OR DISTINCT POPULATION. THE LINES OF CULTURAL SEPERATION WERE FADING DUE TO THE FALL OF BYZANTINE POWER AND A NEED FOR THE SURROUNDING TRIBAL SUPPORT PLUS THE HESITATION OF CONSOLIDATION WITH THE LATIN PRINCES .

Edited by Konstantine - 15-Sep-2007 at 02:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2007 at 06:01
                                                            ALBANIANS THE CRISIS AND THE FALL OF EPIRUS AND THE SURROUNDING TERITORIES ALL OWED TO CARLO THOPIA SON OF ANDREA , GRANDSON OF TANUSH REGENT OF MAT : Few countries have experienced such unusual confessional changes as Albania.
: After the religious schism of 1054, she was split into a Catholic north and an Orthodox south. Westerners from across the Adriatic invaded Albania and attacked the Byzantine Empire. The thema of Durres (Dyrrhachium) and its Metropolis became the most active theatre of contest between the two faiths. Whenever the Western armies were successful, the border line of the Eastern church receded: whenever Byzantium was victorious, its frontiers expanded. Church power followed the vicissitudes of the political power which supported it.

     Caught between the East-West struggle, the local lords and bishops in Albania tried to adapt themselves to the changing situations. They wavered between Eastern Othodoxy and Roman Catholicism, according to their momentary interest. These oscillations, however, and the mixed populations of cities, such as Durres, prevented the Orthodox-Catholic conflict from taking a violent form on Albanian territory.

     With the coming of the Ottomans a third religion was introduced into Albania: Islamism. The Turks invaded Albania for the first time in 1385. Turkey were invited by an Albanian feudal lord of the central part, Karlo Thopia, who, distrusting Venice and fearing the domination of a ruling house in the north, the Balshas, asked for Turkish support. Balsha II and many other Albanian lords formed a coalition in order to oppose the enemy, but their resistance was broken near the Vijos? River. Albania was invaded again in 1394-1396 by Sultan Beyazid I and a large part of the country was occupied by the Ottomans. But after Beyazid's departure the local lords revolted and much of the lost territory was regained. A great invasion of the Turkish army took place in 1423 under Sultan Murad II (1421-1451) reaching as far as the Adriatic.

    At the outset the Ottomans do not seem to have employed force for the propagation of Islam. They allowed the Albanian lords to maintain their positions on condition that they pay the harac (tribute), send their sons as hostages to the Sultan's court, and furnish auxiliary troops. In the records of the timars (Ottoman military fiefs) in southern and central Albania for the years 1431-1432, only 30% of the timars were held by Turks from Asia Minor whom the sultans had rewarded with lands in Albania, the rest were held by Albanian lords.

Edited by Konstantine - 15-Sep-2007 at 06:31
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 17:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 19:21

Also the claim from albanians that they have illyrian names is null


ISBN 960-210-279-9 Miranda Vickers, The Albanians

Chapter 9. "Albania Isolates itself" page 256

In page 271 it is stated

 

From time to time the state gave out lists with pagan ,supposed Illyrian or newly constructed names that would be proper for the new generation of revolutionaries.(see also Also Logoreci "the Albanians" page 157.)

http://www.hoplites.net/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2007 at 01:12
Originally posted by britani

ok,erkut
i am going to tell you

he was an albanian,he was burnand died in albania,he is our national hero

he is wellknown couse with a little army kept the last castle of christianism in balcan alive from the ottomans


he also gathered the albanian together and called his self like the descendors of alexander the great...thats why the turks named him iskender couse in turkish language the name "alexander" can not be spelled so exceptiskender


I would like to check you a bit on this issue:

Skenderbeg was born Gjergj Kastriot, his father John, or Jovan as it says in some texts, and his mother Vojsava from the Pollog valley, in the Republic of Macedonia, he was christian, orthodox, and then taken by the Turks, to become an Ottoman, muslim, and then returned and "allied with George Arianite [11](born Gjergj Arianit Komneni) and married his daughter Andronike (born Marina Donika Arianiti).[12]"

Komneni belonged to the Macedonian dynasty, didn't they?
And why do you think he was called Alexander(Skender) the Great(Bei) in Turkish?

So his parents being obviously of Slavic origin, at least that is what their names suggest, and Skenderbeg being married to a Macedonian princess, what claims you pose for your argument that Skenderbeg was Albanian? Is it because it all happened on the territory of modern day Albania? The Albanian nation was first created in 1912, wasn't it?

What is the ethnic origin of the modern day Albanians, is it Slavic?

Where does the language root from? Albanian does not belong to another family of languages it is distinct, and it always intrigued me, why?

And how come there is the mention of Albani in Iranian history, 3rd century AD:

"The Sassanians did not form light-armed cavalry but extensively employed-as allies or mercenaries-troops from warlike tribes who fought under their own chiefs. "The Sagestani were the bravest of all"; the Gelani, Albani and the Hephthalites, the Kushans and the Khazars were the main suppliers of light-armed cavalry. The skill of the Dailamites in the use of sword and dagger made them valuable troopers in close combat, while Arabs were efficient in desert warfare."

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/sassanids/sassanian_army.php

Or Arbanoi, or Arberesh, or "in the I Century AD, Pliny the Elder (http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Pliny+t he+Elder) mentions an Illyrian tribe named Olbonenses"?

Where are the origins of all these names, and why do you call yourself Skipetar? This has nothing to do with the "Albania" ethimology!








Edited by Petro Invictus - 29-Nov-2007 at 01:36


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2007 at 01:40
I admire you Konstantine!

Edited by Petro Invictus - 29-Nov-2007 at 01:40


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2007 at 14:07
Justinian was born in Naisus (the modern Nis in Serbia). He was ethnically Thracian, and bilingual in Thracian and Latin in his upbringing. Constantine I was from a Roman family and was born also in Serbia - his father was Roman and his mother Bythinian. I don't see how you can claim these Emperors as "Albanian".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 07:53
Any post that has nothing to do with the subject will be hidden. Any one spamming this thread (or any other) with irrelevant and nationalistic  posts, or FYROM talk will be dealt with.

Edit: actually this cant be saved as it stands, locked until someone can tell my this is worth opening


Edited by Leonidas - 13-Dec-2007 at 07:57
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