Gjergj Kastrioti (Skenderbey)
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Medieval Europe
Forum Discription: The Middle Ages: AD 500-1500
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=18916
Printed Date: 13-May-2024 at 20:15
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Topic: Gjergj Kastrioti (Skenderbey)
Posted By: britani
Subject: Gjergj Kastrioti (Skenderbey)
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 07:18
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how much is known nowdays this great hero that protected his nation from the otomans and not only....he was fighting also for christianism case.....
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Replies:
Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 12:36
In Italy he is honoured too:
 Piazza Albania in Rome, Italy
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Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 12:39
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So was he an İtalian? İf he is, from wich state? ------------- |
Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 13:00
| No, he was not Italian but had strong links with Italy and, above all, for Italians he was a christian hero. |
Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 13:10
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So please could anyone introduce him? Or should i keep guesing?
When did he lived? Where he comes from? What did he done? ............? ------------- |
Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 13:16
| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skanderbeg - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skanderbeg |
Posted By: britani
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 13:25
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ok,erkut
i am going to tell you
he was an albanian,he was burn and died in albania,he is our national hero
he is wellknown couse with a little army kept the last castle of christianism in balcan alive from the ottomans
he also gathered the albanian together and called his self like the descendors of alexander the great...thats why the turks named him iskender couse in turkish language the name "alexander" can not be spelled so except iskender ------------- |
Posted By: britani
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 13:32
thanx a lot for the information Leonardo ------------- |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 16:31
A new book about Georgija Kastriot written by Petar Popovski is published these days in FYROMacedonia. It is 1200 pages long (or short) and irrefutabely proofs his Slav-Macedonian (Mijak) ethnicity.
The name of the book is ....Georgija Kastriot -Iskender and his Mijak Ethnicity ------------- 
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Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 16:37
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http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=GJERGJ_KASTRIOTI-SKENDERBEU - http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=GJERGJ_KASTRIOTI-SKENDERBEU
Well i also searched him a little  ------------- |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 16:51
So what do you exactly believe Akritas?How come you are refering to some sources that yourself disregarded in other cases? Or lets say it, the enemy of my enemy could be my allie, sometimes???
------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 16:55
Opps i think somebody get busted ------------- |
Posted By: Neoptolemos
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 17:45
The question is who will get busted at the end?  
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Posted By: Pjetėr Liosha
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2007 at 10:48
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Akritas
It would be interesting if you could share with us some of the quotes from that book written by Popovski. I wonder if the rest of us would deem your recensation as 'fair', because the term 'irrefutable proof' is a rather strong claim. If such was really the case, I am confident that the book would have made more sensation than it de facto has, nor would Scanderbeg's origins be debated anylonger among the historical circles. I mean, the Macedonian historians have totally discredited themselves by claiming Alexander the Great, equating ancient Macedonians with modern Slav Macedonians.
For those of you who do not know, George Kastrioti, known in traditional litterature as Scanderbeg, was a medieval lord in Albania, who lived in the years 1405-1468. In 1443, he led his men in a rebellion against the Ottomans, and the year thereafter he summoned the Albanian nobility to the town of Alessio (modern day Lezha) and forged an alliance comprised by a loose federation of local principalities. There was also one foreign member of this alliance; Ivan Crnojevic of Zeta (Montenegro). From that day on, he led the confederation's armies into numerous victories against the Ottomans which liberated the country, fencing off Ottoman attacks and invasions for the upcoming 25 years while at it. This success earned him the title "Athleta Christi", a title given by the Pope only to two other contemporaries of Scanderbeg; Janós Hunyadi, a Hungarian noble of Transsylvania, and Stefan cel Mare, prince of Moldavia and cousin of the notorious Vlad III "the Impaler".
Naturally, this charismatic nature of Scanderbeg made him a hero not only to the Albanians, but also to other peoples of the Balkans and to all of contemporary Europe. This, however, has also lead to some claiming Scanderbeg as their own. Greeks like to corrupt his name into Georgios Kastriotis and claim he was of the Greek ethnicity. Slavs, or more explicitly, modern Macedonians and Serbs, corrupt his name into Djuradj Kastriotovic or Kastriotovski and claim him to be a Slav medieval noble.
Personally, I think these tendencies of claiming an already well defined historical figure, is a sign of pseudo-historiography motivated by nationalistic ambitions rather than objective efforts to unravel the ethnic origins of a much praised medieval hero and excellent strategist. Greek claims on Scanderbeg circulate much around the fact that he was oftenly called "Prince of Epirus" -- the latter term being a geographic designation attributed to what is northwestern Greece. What these 'historians' neglect or 'forget' to mention, is that in medieval sources, old geographic/ethnic terms were oftenly used to referr to medieval political or ethnic units. Thus, the Slavs of Western Balkans, namely the Croats & Serbs, were called 'Illyrians' even though it is well known that the Slavs did not arrive in the Balkans until the 6th century AD, as opposed to the Illyrians who were an indigenous ethnic component. The Bulgarians were likewise called 'Triballi', which was the name of a Thracian tribe who dwelved in what is now modern Bulgaria long before the arrival of either Slavs of Bulgars. Albanians likewise were called Macedonians and Epirotians. In no way was Scanderbeg, however, an ethnic Greek noble. There are no proof, aside the above mentioned fallacy, of him being an ethnic Greek.
The Slav claims circulate much around the anthroponyms (personal names) of his family, which indeed are of Slav origins in many cases, as in that of his mother Vojsava, his brother Stanisha and his sister, Jela. However, what these sources forget, is that in many cases, the personal name of an individual is not necessarely indicative of one's ethnic affiliation. Medieval Albania had under the Middle Age sporadically been under the occupation of Slav kingdoms and principalities. Consequently, the influence of the Orthodox Slav culture ran high. In the 1300s, the Serbian tsar Stefan Dusan occupied essentially all of Albania, with the exception of the harbour town of Durrės, medieval and ancient Dyrrachium. He also implemented his own set of rules, called Dusanova Zakonik, as the imperial law of the territories he ruled. In his law, it was said that all 'heretics' (Catholics and Orthodox believers of the Byzantine rite included) would be severely punished (including execution) upon refusing conversion to the Serbian Orthodox Church. His policies were pursued even by his followers, and they continued ruling parts of Albanian territories. As a result of this, Slav influence increased and Orthodox Slav names were accordingly adopted by the indigenous peasantry and nobility, even though we weren't and aren't ethnic Slavs. Even today, though at a much lower level, the result of this influence is evident in loan-words and even occasional surnames or even names, such as Vuksan, Prelvukaj, Bogdani, Vladi etc.
Regarding Scanderbeg, there is a probability his mother was a Slav princess from Polog, modern day Macedonia/FYROM. There is, however, no definite proof to confirm this. Scanderbeg's father, John Kastrioti (known as Gjon in Albanian and Ivan/Jovan in Serbian and Macedonian) was a lord of Dibra, which is an ethnic Albanian territory in modern day Albania and FYROM. Here is where the hot debate really stands, because the sons of nobles usually followed the father's foot-steps, which means that, for example, a Byzantine Greek prince/emperor was Byzantine/Greek because his father was so, regardless of his mother's origins. The last emperor of Constantinople, Constantine Dragatses, was for instance 1/2 Serbian because of his mother; he was however, still a Byzantine emperor. Likewise, Stefan Dusan of Serbia was and is not considered Bulgarian because his mother, Theodora, was a Bulgarian princess. He honoured the allegiance of his father, Stefan Decanski.
Likewise, Scanderbeg was what his father was. That is why Slavs like to claim him as well, and not settle with Vojsava. The mystery of John Kastrioti, however, isn't as mysterious as some would like to conclude. He was by the time of his son's birth, the lord of two Albanian villages, Sinja and Gardhi i Poshtėm (Lower Gardhi). He was most probably a Orthodox landlord, and being that his tiny domain was in direct touch with Slav lands and peoples, intermarriages occured at a noble level (infact, as all here probably know, inter-ethnic marriages in noble circles was the norm during this period). However, how he and his sons were perceived ethnically by their Slav neighbours, is rather evident through Scanderbeg's monk brother, Reposh Kastrioti. The monastery in which he worked was 'coincidentally' called (by Slav chronicles) as 'Arbanaska pirga', the former term being a medieval Slav word for Albanian. Why would it be called such if the family of John Kastrioti was trully Slav?
Above all, where the loyalty and fate of Scanderbeg belonged is evident through his work and legacy. Even in his own correspondence with the Prince of Taranto, he clearly identifies with the Albanian nation.
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Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2007 at 16:29
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The existence of 20 (or more) epic songs about Scanderbeg in modern Macedonia (FYROM) its explainable, because we know that in that state albanians and others (serbians, bulgarians, greeks, turks etc) lived for centuries. But it is in Albania that Scanderbeg is considered a national hero, and in all the albanian territories thousand of songs and tales are sang in his memory. A whole epic cycle is named by him, and so does one of the albanian Kanuns (juridical code). In the arbėreshė territories in the modern provinces of Puglia, Abruzzo, Molise, Calabria, Campania, Sicily in Italy the descendants of the albanians who fleed the turkish invasion after Scanderbeg's death still remember this hero. http://www.arbitalia.it - www.arbitalia.it Now, Scanderbeg was a Catholic, from a catholic family. You all know who are the ethnicities of the catholic communities in the western balcans (Croats and Albanians). Fortunately there are plenty of documents on Scanderbeg, including several genealogies, one its even from his allie, the albanian prince Gjon Muzakė Komneni (John Mussacha Comneno).I dont want to discuss the Comneni prince, as I know that the Comnenes were a byzanthine family, but you all know that nobles married between eachother (and they still do) so the albanian branch of the Comnenes could be descendant, or connected by marriage to the Byzanthines. Scanderbegs wife was a Comnene. Her name was Donika Komnena (Andronice Comnena - in an italian inscription found even in the albanian version Donice Castriota Scanderbeg). She was the daughter of the southern albanian prince Gjergj Arianit Komneni - George Arianites Comnene, who is still remembered in epic tales and songs, as the most powerful prince after Scanderbeg (and perhaps Lekė Dukagjini- Alexander Duke of Ghin).
Scanderbeg's mother, Voisava, judging from the name, could be slavic. Anyway, I remember we discussed this issue in another thread before, so who is interested could do a little search up there.
If you want to discuss Scanderbegs ethnicity, lets do that, I am open. But it is a bit strange when somebody posts as resources the same links he himself disregarded and accussed as being abusive- to say the less.
------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Pjetėr Liosha
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2007 at 16:59
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Hey Arbėr
Indeed epic songs proove little. In Albanian folklore, there are songs about Milos Kopilic and Marko Kraljevic, though I am confident no Serb historian sees this as proof of these medieval personalities' alleged Albanian ethnicity. Neither do Serbian songs about Janós Hunyadi, the Hungarian known as Sibinjanin Janko in Serbian folklore, proove the alleged Serbian ethnicity of this Transylvanian noble.
I do disagree with you, however, about the religion of George Kastrioti. Most evidence point towards the fact that he was Orthodox, not Catholic, hence also the presence of Orthodox names in his family of both the Greek and Serbian rites. His father, John Kastrioti, made donations to the Orthodox monasteries of Mt.Athos. Later in life he became more of a Uniat; this might be related to the fact that all local Orthodox powers, including Byzantium, had more or less fallen to Ottoman hands. In the West, however, the Catholics stood strong and Scanderbeg needed the Pope's support. Perhaps there was a stage when he converted to Catholicism, I do not know -- he was buried in the Catholic Cathedral of Saint Nicholas (Shėn Kolli) in Lezha. But he was probably an Orthodox in the first stage of his life. No doubt, his politics towards the Papacy was strategical. But in the end, it was fruitless; the Pope's promises of a crusade were never realized.
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Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2007 at 17:43
Actually they were, if momentarily. Pope Pius II was an avid supporter of Scanderbeg(and a great critic of the Venetians) and organized an army of crusaders which were to be shipped from Ancona to Albania. He was to attend the trip but died along the way; thereafter, the crusaders melted away.* Scanderbeg and Hunyadi, however, were late on the message and both prepared an invasion into Ottoman Macedonia. Scanderbeg attacked the Ohrid with momentary success, but was forced to withdraw upon realizing that support was not forthcoming, similarly with Hunyadi. Both men broke the treaty they had signed with Mehmed in order to take part in the crusade. *Later on, the late Italian Renaissance writer, Margherrita Sarrochi: the first female epic poem writer, idealized the pope in her poem Scanderbeg. |
Posted By: Pjetėr Liosha
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2007 at 20:43
| Yeah. That period is a great "what if" in Albanian history. Had that Pope not died, Scanderbeg might have had some real aid coming from the Apennines. Not disregarding the help he did actually receive, but it was more symbolical than decisive, as the case of 500 fighters from Naples ... who ironically needed Scanderbeg's help to fence off the forces of the Prince of Taranto in the 1460s. The most spectacular thing, however, was the case where volunteers came from England to fight for Scanderbeg. Absolutely amazing; their voyage alone must've been an epic tale on its own. |
Posted By: Timotheus
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2007 at 21:48
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Skanderbeg was one of the greatest medieval military commanders. It is conceivable that he saved Europe by holding back the genius of Mehmet II who conquered Constantinople and could have conquered Italy except for a pestilential Albanian army in his rear. He had been a janissary, taken from his father's household to serve in the Ottoman army, but he defected in the middle of a battle to Janos Hunyadi, another great commander from Hungary. He said to the Albanians whom he returned to, "I did not give you liberty, I found it here among you." He unified for a time the Albanian princes in defense against Ottoman incursions and won several battles, all at a position of numerical inferiority. After his death his son sold the kingdom to the Venetians who could not defend it and it quickly fell to Mehmet's successor. His reputation is sadly sullied today because his ancestry is claimed by the Greeks, the Serbs, the Macedonians, the Bulgarians, the Turks, the Croats, the Bosnians, and probably the Canadians too. No serious historian outside of the Balkans disputes that Skanderbeg considered himself anything other than Epirote. ------------- Opium is the religion of the masses. From each according to his need, to each according to his ability. |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 04:30
Where did you find this? Can you point me to some examples? That might be a sign of ignorance, but I heard about him for the first time in this forum
 As faras I know, nobody in Bulgaria attempts to trace Bulgarian roots of Skanderbeg. In contrast to Krali Marko  ------------- . |
Posted By: Liudovik_Nemski
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 09:50
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That's right no one here claims Skenderberg to be bulgarian hero.At least 80-90% of the Bulgars haven't even heard of him.
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Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 10:01
| %99.99 of Turks haven't even heard of him either. |
Posted By: Pjetėr Liosha
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 10:33
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I do not think Bulgarians claim him. But Macedonians do. Perhaps that is where the confusion arises. Afterall, the Macedonians and Bulgarians speak languages (or dialects) which are mutually intelligible. Some would go as far as to say that they are of the same ethnicity, which I know FYROManians like to deny.
Those who do claim Scanderbeg as their own are Macedonians, Serbs & Greeks. It must be noted, however, that we are speaking of sensationalists and not professional historians. Respected historians from the above mentioned nations know better than to claim a well-defined medieval personality as the case of George Kastrioti Scanderbeg, especially when dealing with some weak and easily dismissable arguments.
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Posted By: Liudovik_Nemski
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 10:38
He fought the turks in order to prevent the conquering of the albanian lands so even if he was partially greek or serb he felt himself as an albanian. -------------
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Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 10:53
I just heard of himł a while ago if it wasnt for that guy the ottomans had captured Roma and mabey more but who knows ------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 11:09
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I don't think so. During the reign of Mehmed II, the Ottomans weren't that powerful anyway. According to the Turkish history books, before the fall of Constantinople, the Ottomans can't even be considered to be an "Empire." They hardly managed to defeat these small balkan groups. |
Posted By: Pjetėr Liosha
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 14:21
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Well, it is a flattering thought of course having people believe that Scanderbeg's and the Albanian people's resistance halted the Ottoman advance and subsequently saved medieval Europe from Turkish dominion. However, for the sake of the truth and being realistic, I am confident that a massive invasion by the Turks on the Appennines would have alarmed the Italians and all Western Europeans. Rome would have been saved either way, most probably.
Nevertheless, Scanderbeg's ferocious resistance did the job instead. And for that, he deserves praise. I mean, in practice, he bought precious time for Rome and Western Europe alonside other generals, of whom most noteworthy were Janós Hunyadi and Stefan the Great from Transylvania and Moldavia respectively. That is also why Scanderbeg was praised by the Pope and much of contemporary Europe, through ballads and poems. That is why he earned prestigious titles.
Regarding the Ottomans not being powerful, I am bound to disagree. Their losses at the hand of Scanderbeg were not the result of them being weak, but rather the excellence and brilliance of Kastrioti, who in a most tactical manner combined the flexibility of his forces with the country's mountainous nature, so as to make advantage of whatever factor he could benefit from and simultaneously make the Ottoman numerical superiority as unimportant as possible. One must remember that it was Mehmed II 'Fatih' (the conquoror) who sacked Constantinople 1453 -- the same man who was Scanderbeg's main enemy. Though the consequences of the crucial defeat the Ottomans had suffered at the hands of Timur Leng 1402 were longlasting, the Ottomans were nonetheless a powerful empire by the time Scanderbeg's men rose to rebellion, 1443. The Ottomans could summon massive armies to their disposal, as was the case in 1453 during the siege of Constantinople, when the Sultan made use of circa 200,000 men to sack Byzantium (modern researchers put the figure at 80,000-100,000 men, which nevertheless, is an impressive figure for those times). They also prooved their power when defeating the crusaders at the battle of Varna, where the Christian army (20,000-30,000 men) was headed by the king of Poland, Wladyslaw III, and the most competent general from Transylvania, Janós Hunyadi (Iancu de Hunedoara in Romanian); the Turkish army consisted of 60,000 men. The result was a total defeat -- the Polish king died alongside half of his multi-national army, November 10, 1444.
The Ottoman realm under Mehmed II is considered an empire, as far as I know. It extended over two continents and essentially covered what had once been the Byzantine empire. Its Sultans could summon massive forces, as mentioned above. Turkish warriors were excellent combatants, and their Janissaries accumulated a(n in)famous reputation of being vicious fighters. The light Ottoman cavalry was also relatively superior to the heavily armoured Christian knights of the West. Conclusively, they were a factor to reckon with, and be afraid of. That is why Pope Pious was so anxious to aid Scanderbeg with a new crusade. To say that Scanderbeg's task of fencing off the Ottomans was an easily matter is delusional; otherwise, if indeed what he delt with were 'border skirmishes' and nothing more, I doubt he would have gained such fame and popularity in medieval Europe, to the point where Englishmen came all the way from Britain to enlist in Scanderbeg's army.
George Kastrioti was always outnumbered; sometimes 1 to 3-4, other times 1 to 10. His capital, Croia (Kruja) was under Ottoman siege thrice (1450, 1466 & 1467). During those times, Ottoman armies reached the figure of 100,000-150,000 men, and were assisted by the artillery. Under those sieges, Scanderbeg left a garrison inside the castle (1,500 men) commanded by his officers, Count Vrana and Andrew Thopia, whilst himself leading a force of 8,000 men outside the walls, continuously harassing the Ottomans. In other occasions, he delt with the Ottomans directly. In the battle of Ujėbardha ('white waters'), 1457, his army of 12,000 men decisively crushed the Ottoman army of 80,000 men, capturing even one of the Ottoman generals. I will write below about his first battle, that of Torviolli 1444 (sometimes known as the 'Battle of Valikardi'), for the sake of demonstrating some of his tactics.
The Sultan, enraged by the recent developments in Albania, sent an army of 25,000 men under the command of Ali pasha. Scanderbeg himself raised an army of 14,000 men, of whom 1/2 were cavalry. Instead of letting the Turks advance into the country, Scanderbeg marched with his army towards his homeregion, Dibra, which was along the border. He chose a perfect narrow field, surrounded by thick forest, to fight the battle; there, th Turks could not make much use of their numerical superiority. In order to lure the Turks, Scanderbeg sent some 400 riders under the command of Moisi Golemi to engage the Turks. The Albanians acted defeated and fled; the Turks pursued and arrived at the narrow field, where Scanderbeg was waiting with the rest of his army. On higher points, Scanderbeg positioned his main army -- behind him, on lower grounds making them invisible, stood the reserves. Finally, a large segment of his army were hidden in the dense forest on both sides. After some cavalry skirmishes, the Turks charged; the Albanians, who till then oftenly fought more traditionally and disorganized, now functioned as a single body under their new commander. They did not break their lines, despite heavy casualties, and a wild fight ensued. The cavalry at the sides pressed the Turkish cavalry back and started encircling the Turks. Finally, the hiding warriors in the forests were deployed, and the Turkish ranks fell into confusion and panic. When Scanderbeg finally ordered the 'invisible' reserves to join in the fight, the Turkish army collapsed and fled disorganized, resulting in a massacre.
The result was ca 7,000 Turkish casualties (this according to new research; old sources put the figure higher), 2,000 war-prisoners, ca 20 captured banners and a clear victory. The Albanians' casualties are disputed; some claim that as many as 3,000 died, whereas others say that as little as 500 men fell.
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Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 14:31
| Scanderbeg's tactics seem typically 'oriental': feigning defeat, skirmish warfare etc. Im sorry that so few is documented on his early military careers, I know that he was renowned for fighting with small forces in Anatolia... but thats it. The man was in the service of the Ottomans for longer then he was revolting, it would have been interesting to see how his military knowledge developed while fighting in the ranks of the most efficient power in the near eastern world. |
Posted By: Pjetėr Liosha
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 14:50
Well, if Scanderbeg's tactics were 'oriental', it would not surprise me. Afterall, he was a hostage in the Sultan's court and served as an Ottoman soldier and general for much of his life. Though traditional story-tellers like to say he was 'abducted' at age nine, new evidence point towards the fact that he became a hostage at the age of 18. He then fought for the Ottomans in military campaigns in Anatolia & Europe. Naturally, he knew how their armies functioned and acted thereafter.
Though personally, I sense he was quite original in his tactis and made use of the indigenous warlike mentality and shaped it into a fighting machine. Among his most powerful weapons was his light cavalry.
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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 14:57
| light cavalry? how un-oriental. It is interesting turks fallen that fake retreats.(It is a traditional nomad tactic.) |
Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 15:08
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It had more to do with the Pasha's impetuousness. He might have known that it was a feigned retreated, but hoped to rush the Albanians and pounce them with sheer force.
On top of it all, he might not have had much choice but to go forward. From some accounts, Scanderbeg ordered various archers and skirmishers to harass the Turks from higher ground, Scanderbeg might have guessed that Turks would not fall so easily into such a trap. There are also accounts of a typical Scanderbeg strategy in this battle: given the enemy the idea that his forces were actually larger. Scanderbeg used various sounds to give the impression that his army was larger then it actually was, demoralizing the enemy. Ali Pasha was probably fooled into thinking that Scanderbeg's skirmishers were larger then they actually were, making forward movement an imperative. The light cavalry aspect is typically late Balkan. The strange thing is that the Turks were not very aware of history. The same kind of defeat was handed to them when another Albanian lord (George Arrianiti) when he attacked their column while they marched through a "tight spot". |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 15:22
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Hmm, this guy is becoming more interesting. do you have an online source about his war tactics.
I am also curious fame of albanian stubbornness at Turkey have relation with this guy.
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Posted By: Liudovik_Nemski
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 15:38
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In the Bulgarian schoolbooks there's some information about him.I heard that when he died the turks took parts of his bones to take his bravery and strengh.
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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 15:44
| huh. That is new to me. I dont ever hear we collect bones. |
Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 15:56
| The tale was probably an invention by later Christian writers to emphasize the "barbaric" character of the Turk. |
Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 15:57
Maybe yes. Maybe not.
Maybe we collect bones for voodo rituels  ------------- |
Posted By: Liudovik_Nemski
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 16:05
Or the writer wanted to say that Skenderberg was so strong that he was respected even by the enemies so they wanted his courage. EDIT:The turks did far greater atrocities to the Bulgars in the 19-th century so that about the bones is also possible.See my thread in the Imperial Age forum about the Apri Upsing i've posted documents from that time. -------------
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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 16:19
| are we barbarian or fool? did we collect bones because we are stupid(like stealing power with bones.) or barbars? |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 16:59
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Just a small correction, in your posts all of you should replace "turks" with "ottomans". The soldiers who destroyed the Catholic Cathedral of Lezha might have been turks, serbs, bulgars, greeks, arabians, caucasians (circassian) or even albanians who were serving the empire's army. The church was destroyed and burned for real, its ruins are now a national monument in Lezha regarding the bones, tales and songs say that they were collected as amulets, this story is reported even by early historians, but I dont know how credible it could be.
Pjetėr, what about the new evidence regarding Gjergj Kastrioti recruted at 18?
Regarding the religion, Scanderbeg was originary from Mat, and some say from todays Hasi region. Almost two centuries later a prominent albanian from the same region, Pjetėr Bogdani, the catholic archbishop of Shkup, (Skopje) preoves that the populace of those "eastern" regions were of catholic faith, not? ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: britani
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 17:09
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yes,the turks after his death took his bones and hunged them in their chess with the only aim to be strong like him.....
its strange for me to hear by a turk that he/she dont know Skanderbeg yet...he is known "by all the world" for his brave couse with small army defeated three times the most powerful empire of that time,nobody have done this before with the ottomans.
in the national museum of wien there are his arms of fighting and many square around the world have his monument for honor.... ------------- |
Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 18:25
Well maybe we just want to forget that terrible defeat
 Or maybe we dont read too much
Or maybe we dont remember him because he was ruling a small army for our great empire
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Posted By: Pjetėr Liosha
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 20:23
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Ljudovik
You are correct. According to the legend, when Lezha was taken, the Ottomans dug up Scanderbeg's body and took his bones to make ammoulettes out of them. Such was his fame even among the enemy. Or so the legend goes ... what grain of truth there is to this I do not know.
Mortaza
I am not sure if there is anything English on the Internet which deals with his tactics. But, I have some interesting books at home which deal with this theme -- the books are in Albanian, however, so direct quotations are of little use. I can write a little about it, however.
Scanderbeg's Confederation provided him with warriors from the country's all corners. But, most of his men were recruited from his own principality. He had a professional army consisting of 2,000 cavalrymen. They could travel across the country very easily and fast. It was said that Sxanderbeg's light cavalry could travel 70km per day, which is in great contrast to (for example) the Italian cavalry, which could only manage 18-21km per day, according to Da Turzo (1460). These cavalrymen weren't sufficient of course. Therefore, Scanderbeg had the rule of "njė burrė shtėpie", meaning atleast one man per household was responsible for showing up in battle. They came with whatever weapons they had; swords, axes, bows and arrows, spears etc.
The thing with Scanderbeg is that he adapted. Meaning; his tactics and military formations weren't coherent, but changed from time to time in order to make use of weather and terrain. This disabled the Turks from learning of their past mistakes, which otherwise is quite valuable (as was the case with Scipio Africanus vs Hannibal Barca). Quite oftenly, the Sultan would send two forces simultaneously. When forced to work on two directions, Scanderbeg was usually forced to divide his army so that the numbers of each unit ranged from 4,000 to 8,000 men. When having the luxoruy of confronting a clear single target, he usually mustered 10,000 to 12,000 men. At the most, he had 20,000 men, though this was rare. When dealing with Ottoman armies which were three-four times larger than his own forces, Scanderbeg usually annihilated the enemy by the border, such as at Ohrid, Dibra, Polog, etc. Only four times did the Ottomans find their way to the deeper territories, reaching Kruja as well. When that occured, Scanderbeg usually harassed the enemies to demoralize them and decimate their numbers before coordinating a final strike, which usually involved the garrison trapped inside the castle which was besieged.
As I also said earlier, Albania is relatively mountainous, and Scanderbeg made use of the highlands to neutralize the Turks. This is what the Byzantine historian Kristobulli (Greek sp?) wrote;
"There were not more than one or two canyons leading into their country through the mountains, and they were guarded by powerful guards who were well-armed, positioning themselves in knife-shaped mountains and natural fortifications. Thus their territory was untouchable, and they could inflict harm on the enemy without suffering casualties themselves."
In narrow passages, engineers made use of rocks and stones, which they at the right moment unleashed with special devices. Even when fighting on flat ground, such as at the battle of Torvioll, Oranik or Drin (the last being against the Venetians), he made use of the terrain somehow. As Pyrrhus of Epirus once apparently said, "make the ground work for you". What is also interesting to note, is that Scanderbeg made use of an intelligence service that operated even in deep Ottoman territory. This enabled the premature exposure of Ottoman tactical plans, in order to better prepare for the upcoming battle. Even when the Ottomans came and these operations mattered little, Scanderbeg was patient and predicted the enemy's moves. Chalcocondylas, another Byzantine historian, wrote following;
"Scanderbeg was always awake, trying to find out what the enemies did and wanted."
Scanderbeg made also use of quick manouvres, making himself available everywhere he was needed. Chalcocondylas and the Albanian historian Marin Barleti both noticed this and commented on how these quick actions infuriated Mehmed II. Thus, in 1452, through quick manouvres, he defeated two Ottoman armies one after one, headed by Hamza pasha and Talip pasha. Through quick manouvres, he was able to stage surprise attacks which caught the enemies off guard. He made use of bad weather as well; when the enemies were not moving, he exploited the rain and snow to change positions and surprise the Ottomans unexpected. The night was also important, since it made his forces less detectable and enabled surprise attacks as well -- thus were the Ottoman armies defeated on 22 April 1450 (when Debrena pasha was killed) and 17 August 1462 (the Ottoman general here was Sinan pasha).
Something which also helped Scanderbeg was the fidelity of his men. When Scanderbeg's son John Kastrioti (named so after his father) was born, his nephew, Hamza Kastrioti, lost hope of becoming the new head of the principality. He betrayed Scanderbeg and joined with the Ottomans. 1457, he and the general Isak bey Evrenoz invaded Albania with 80,000 men. This was especially dangerous, since Hamza knew of Scanderbeg's tactics and ways. Scanderbeg changed his strategy; he dismantled his army and ordered all to scatter and come back upon his orders. Meanwhile, the Turks met little resistance, reaching even the gate of Kruja, the siege of which they postponed. Searching diligently after insurgents that weren't there, the Ottomans finally concluded that Scanderbeg had been betrayed by his men and that victory was theirs. Even the Venetian governor of Durrės, Marco Diedo, wrote to the senate on July 21, that "The Magnificient Scanderbeg, deserted by all was trying to find refuge high in the mountains". While parts of the Ottoman armies were besieging local fortresses, such as those of Rodon, Petrela and Guri i Bardhė, the main army camped at the field known as Ujėbardha. There, they celebrated their 'victory', drinking and partying, declaring Hamza Kastrioti as the new king of Albania. Meanwhile, Scanderbeg's men returned upon being given orders, and organized the attack from the mountain of Tumenisht, September 7. The attack was carried out in the middle of the day, when the Turks least expected it; this after guard-patrols were neutralized. The attack was carried out from the north, and the Turks were taken by total surprise. Metal-clapping devices gave the Turks the impression that their enemy was more numerous than they actually were. Total confusion arose; the only one to stay cold was Hamza Kastrioti who knew about his uncle's tactics, and the fact that his forces couldn't possible be so large as was illusioned. That is why Scanderbeg personally lead his professional cavalrymen against Hamza Kastrioti's sipahis (Ottoman knights) and decisively defeated them before they could mobilize the rest of the army. Hamza Kastrioti was captured, some 35,000 Turks killed or captured, and the rest fled in massive panic.
The irony is that the Venetian senate received Marco Diedo's letter days after the battle was fought. Scanderbeg's success was also much due to his warriors' skills and bravery. The mountain people of Albania had developed a particularly warlike culture which made them fit to fight. The Turks were very much impressed. This is what a contemporary Turkish historian wrote;
"The Albanians, these tigers of mountain wars ... have as their religion rebellion. Even their worst warrior is one of the strongest and bravest on the battle-field, just as if he was a knight on the legendary horse."
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Posted By: Timotheus
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 22:55
It was half misinformation and half joke. I was first introduced to this controversy watching an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Skanderbeg/Archive_1#Admin_cleanup - edit war on Wikipedia . Pjeter has posted some very interesting things. Skanderbeg is a fascinating character. ------------- Opium is the religion of the masses. From each according to his need, to each according to his ability. |
Posted By: Liudovik_Nemski
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 01:01
So you're trying to tell me that the orthodox Bulgars or Serbs will destroy a christian temple?Not very logical is it? But if it was done by jannisaries it's possible since they were taken from their mothers as little children so that they will forget their homes and religion. -------------
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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 02:28
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its strange for me to hear by a turk that he/she dont know Skanderbeg yet...he is known "by all the world" for his brave couse with small army defeated three times the most powerful empire of that time,nobody have done this before with the ottomans.
My friend dont you think, we had a lot problems bigger than skanderbeg. Hmm some crusades, russian, germans, byzantium and specially iran, other some larger states.
It is too normal a courageous man with small army is ignored by our history.
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Posted By: Pjetėr Liosha
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 08:31
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Mortaza
I do not know about Iran. As far as I am aware, the conflict between the Shah and the Sultan (which by the way I would like to learn more about) escalated only in the 16th century, but I might be wrong. Byzantium was hardly a 'greater' threat than Scanderbeg. As early as in the 1300s, their 'empire' was restricted to the city of Constantinople and some land outside the walls, not much more.
The last crusade, likewise, came in 1444, when King Wladyslaw III of Poland and Janós Hunyadi were defeated at Varna (modern day Bulgaria). Scanderbeg had just begun his rebellion by then. Germans ... I don't know what threat they posed, as there weren't really much conflict between you guys in those days. Neither were the Russians a threat either ... those days, they were recovering from the Mongol invasions which had devastated the country for centuries. HOWEVER, if you are referring to threats against the Ottoman empire throughout your whole history, then it is another issue. But, when Scanderbeg lived, the Sultan had three major enemies (I wouldn't count Venice, since they switched from behing foes and friends with the Ottomans); George Kastrioti alias Scanderbeg of Albania, Janós Hunyadi of Hungary and Transylvania and Stephen the Great of Moldavia.
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More concerning Scanderbeg's tactics. The best way to explain his tactics is to describe his battles.
By the end of the 1440s, an Albanian noble called Leka Zaharia (Alexander Zacharias) was killed. It was suspected that another Albanian noble had killed him. This because of a fight, in 1445, between Leka and the other noble over the hand of a beautiful princess known as Jerina. Jerina chose Leka Zaharia, and this angered the other noble, who assasinated him some time later.
Now, Danja (Leka's capital) was left under the reign of Leka's mother, Bora. Leka and Scanderbeg had made a truce that if one of them died without an heir, the other would sieze the dead one's lands. But the Venetians also wanted Danja, and took it before Scanderbeg. A conflict quickly arose, and Scanderbeg besieged local fortresses (including Danja) under Venetian rule. But this was to no avail, thus, a blockage sufficed for the time being. Eventually, however, Scanderbeg marched into the vicinity of Shkodra, and the whole region rose in rebellion. The Venetians sent 15,000 men under the command of Daniel Juric, and at the shores of the river Drin, a battle ensued.
In this battle, Scanderbeg made use of his light cavalry. He knew the well-armoured Venetians would have difficulties with fast manouvres, and so, with his horsemen, he charged ferociously against the weakest point in the enemy lines, namely the interval between the heavy cavalry and the infantry. Scanderbeg led the charge personally. The strike was successfull and the enemy formation was broken. The centre was divided from its right wing, and Scandebreg and his men thus attacked the flanks of the heavy cavalry, while his infantry neutralized the strongest components of the Venetian army. Thus began the gradual and systematic disintegration of the Venetian military formations; Scanderbeg made use of the tactics "attack and annihilate small components, attack block and surround big components". He now encircled much of the Venetian army, which now also got attacked from the back by volunteering local farmers and highlanders. The defeat was decisive.
Unfortunately, Scanderbeg did not get much out of this victory. Venetian diplomacy had intentionally bought time and delayed a confrontation, whilst simultaneously calling the Turks for help. A Turkish army of 40,000 men marched into the country, and Scanderbeg was forced to fight on two fronts. The Turks besieged the city/castle of Svetigrad, where the defenders (who also included a Bulgarian contingent) fought under the command of Peter Perlati (Pjetėr Perlati). Scanderbeg tried to aid the city, and deployed his tactics of harassing the besieging Turks. The defenders fought heroically as well, but the Turks found the channel which provided the city with water. This forced the defenders to give up the city. Scanderbeg had lost an important castle, and furthermore, without artillery and other equipments, he could not take Danja. A peace was finally signed, which gave Venice Danja, whereas Scanderbeg would receive an annual pension of 1,400 ducats. The Venetian conducted another sabotage here as well. They intentionally delayed the first payment, which in turn delayed Scanderbeg who was to join forces with a major Hungarian-Wallachian force commanded by Janós Hunyadi. By the time Scanderbeg arrived in Kosovo, the Hungarians had been defeated 1448, on the Second Battle of Kosovo (the first being 1389).
This is a great "what if". What IF the Venetians didn't ally themselves with the Ottomans? What if George Brankovic, the despot of Serbia, didn't try to sabotage Hunyadi's advance and instead joined forces with him? Hunyadi led an army of circa 30,000 men southwards. Scanderbeg in turn had some 20,000 men under his command; together, they'd be a force of 50,000 warriors under the command of the region's two most charismatic leaders. Though I doubt they'd sack Constantinople, surely they would have been a massive threat to Ottoman presence in Europe. Instead, Scanderbeg's delayel forced him to engage the Turks alone. Three days the battle lasted it was said. If this is true, it means that the two forces were relatively equal in strength. The fresh arrival of 20,000 warriors under the veteran Scanderbeg would have most probably shifted the luck to Hunyadi's advantage. Instead, on the third day, a Wallachian contingent deserted Hunyadi and his army wad defeated.
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Posted By: britani
Date Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 07:14
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It is too normal a courageous man with small army is ignored by our history.
yes,he may be ignored by your history couse he was a black point of your history ......other albanians would serv turkiye in the future with soldier and wise men. i will recognise you frasheri brothers like Sami frasheri/yen and the others like architect Sinani.... ------------- |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 07:19
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Sinan is not albanian.
He is ignored, because he was not a real danger too ottomans. Yeah he protected his country well. So what? There are others who protected his country well too. Why do you think we should learn all of them?
do you aware of how large ottoman empire and how long It survived? Please, we are talking a small place and a small time span compared with all ottomans. They cannot teach us to all..
By the way, Who is this sami guy?
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Posted By: britani
Date Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 07:35
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maybe he couldnt be a real danger to ottomans but sure he was a real wall for them according to their aims to qonquist europe and spread over their religion.
yes we are talkig for a small place as you say but also for great men that this place has given to history and civilisation.
as for architect Sinani he had said himself that was an arnaut one
also according to a turk writter Ataturk would be from dibra/albania ------------- |
Posted By: britani
Date Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 07:41
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you dot know who is sami frasheri????...let me expalin you sami frasheri is the first that made the vocabylary (turkish-turkish and arabic-turkish)...is the one who a football stadium has his name=>"ali sami yen"
try to study better your history ------------- |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 07:45
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maybe he couldnt be a real danger to ottomans but sure he was a real wall for them according to their aims to qonquist europe and spread over their religion.
Please, almost all nations at balkans claim they protected christian Europe.
yes we are talkig for a small place as you say but also for great men that this place has given to history and civilisation.
I hope you did not missunderstood me. It is known albanians were couragous. We are not ignoring him because he is albanian . I am not belittling albanians also.God help me If I do such thing, specially when my father in law is albanian but fact is fact.
as for architect Sinani he had said himself that was an arnaut one
Now, that is a new knowledge to me. what is this arnavut doing inner anatolia?
also according to a turk writter Ataturk would be from dibra/albania
well, maybe yes maybe not, but I am sure Ataturk was not aware of this fact. Because he did not called himself as arnavut but turk.
Arnavuts absolutely did good thing for ottomans or turks, but absolutely they did not only goods. Infamous, Damat ferid and mehmet ali were also albanian.
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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 07:51
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Sami Frasheri=Şemsettin Sami. True, he was albanian and was the first that made the vocabylary .
Ali Sami Yen was son of Şemsettin Sami. Oh well. Add, him to infamous albanians too.
(He is also one of biggest builder of Galatasaray club.) |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 10:00
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I never heard of Skenderbey before.
Were Albanians muslims at this stage? I have many Kosovan friends they're muslim and say they accepted Islam voluntarily and found the Bektashi spiritualism and tolerance very attractive?
Also, most Albanians I know get on well and don't have a deep ingrained hatred for Turks unlike some other nations in the Balkans, does Iskender Bey conflict with this? Have I just met Albanians who like Turks ? do most Albanians not like Turks.------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 11:20
At this stage the majority of the albanians were Catholics and Orthodoxes.
Regarding your friends, what they say is true, nobody forces them now to be muslim. All the albanians believing in islam nowadays are not forced to. But regarding the conversion during the ottoman occupation, thats another issue...
Albanians dont have any deep ingrained hatred for Turks, and they dont have any deep ingrained hatred for other nations. Many albanians do have negative feelings for the Serb Nation, because of the oppression in Kosova, and because of the war crimes. Some albanians could have problems even with the Greek Nation, because of problems caused by the albanian massive emigration during the 90's.
But I believe that modern albanians will learn to get along with their neighbours, myself I have very good friends in all the Balkan Countries, and i've had a fine time in Belgrade, Athens, Sofia, or Istambul. The problem with the balkans, IMO is that people are egocentric or ethnocentris, and that doesnt help. ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 11:29
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as for architect Sinani he had said himself that was an arnaut one
And did the architect himself give you this precious info??
also according to a turk writter Ataturk would be from dibra/albania
According to a serbian writer all the albanians would be from Georgia
Please, try to bring arguments in your posts, you are not helping if you continue bringing here subjective opinions
Kemal Ataturk was an ottoman born in Selanik (Thessaloniki). He could be of albanian descent, but as it is pointed rightly by Mortaza, he felt a Turk, and was indeed a very great Turk. But this is offtopic ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Pjetėr Liosha
Date Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 11:44
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Albanians weren't Muslims at this stage. We were all Christian. Scanderbeg was born Orthodox, though there is a possibility he converted to Catholicism before his death, since he was buried in a Catholic Cathedral in the town of Lezha, named S:t Nicholas.
After Scanderbeg died (1468), the resistance continued for some while. Initially, it was led by Leka Dukagjini, a noble who some say was of Norman origins, though I am sure that is a legend. He was eventually defeated and took refugee in Ragusa and thereafter Italy. Scanderbeg's son, John Kastrioti, also fought the Turks some while after, as did his son, George Kastrioti or Scanderbeg the younger. This was all in vain though. The Ottoman power was too overwhelming, and Albania became a province. Many mountainous areas maintained their freedom, however. This was especially true for the regions formerly ruled by Leka Dukagjini. There, the Turks were unable to firmly implement their authority and organization.
The Islamization process started taking place en masse during the 17th century. Some say we converted because of the fine rhetorics of the Muslim clergy. Others like to believe we converted because we were forced. Neither of these explanations are entirely true, I would say. The reasons were socio-economic. One must have several things in mind, in order to understand why Islam spread in Albania and not in neighbouring Balkan territories. Firstly, our resistance in the 1400s brought massive destruction. Mehmed II's campaigns in Albania resulted in widespread massacres of the population, which lead to an unhealthy decimation of our numbers. As if this wasn't enough, 1/4 of Albania's population fled to Italy, particularly Sicily & Calabria, where they've lived ever since. This made us especially vulnerable, and as if this wasn't enough, the Ottomans imposed the taxes on non-Muslim populations (jizya) and reduced the peasantry into a raya class (serfdom). Economic devastation and the severe decimation of our population as a result of continuous warfare for almost a century had its effects. Converting to Islam was a way to atleast slightly improve our conditions.
The second reason is social. Albania differed very much from Greece or Serbia, for example. While the Albanians were primarily a pastoral population divided into clans, the Serbs and Greeks were mainly peasants reduced to serfdom. The Ottomans and their raya system didn't mean anything new for the Greeks and Serbs, who were predominantly serfs even prior to the Ottoman arrival. Their primary authority was the Church, hence, their Christian identity was better established in the sense that the Church clergy were indeed their shepherds. In Albania, no unified church was to be found. The main authority there was the nobility and clan-leaders. Their primary interest was the preservation of this authority ... hence many of our leaders, be they nobles or clan-leaders, converted to Islam. The population followed ... much like the population in Germany during the 17th century which switched between Protestantism and Catholicism whenever their leaders did so.
To other Christian populations who had already experienced the phenomenon of serfdom, the Ottoman system introduced an even more liberal form of the meropah social-structure. To clan-based socities which had enjoyed relative freedom previously, this wasn't so easy. Hence, wherever you found pastoral populations, some degree of Islamization occured, like in Crete. The main exception here were the Vlachs, who were enabled to maintain their ways of life.
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 17:45
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Thank you for your replies, they were very informative and I respect the manner in which you present your views, its great to read posts not polluted by hatred and one-sided bias which just lead to flame wars.
p.s My Kosovan friend told me that the Christians tried to exploit Albanians and there was some problem with the Pope? And are the Albanian Ottoman governers and Pashas of which there were many famous and influential ones popular among Albanians? ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Pjetėr Liosha
Date Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 19:43
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Thanks for your kind words Bulldog. I try to maintain atleast some level of objectivity, for what honor and pride is there in lies? This is not to say that I cannot be biased at times as well, but nonetheless, I make efforts in bringing forth and representing a balanced view on matters I have information on.
Regarding your Kosovar friend's statement, I cannot really confirm what he stated, because I would need concrete examples of this mistreatment. If the church mistreated our people, it probably didn't differ from the ways the church mistreated people elsewhere, namely by trying to opress anything abnormal and which did not coincide with their views and perspective on matters ... views and perspectives which quite oftenly weren't even linked to authentic Christianity, I would say. Therefore, I doubt such a thing had any impact on our decision to convert (I am speaking of the Muslim segment here; plenty Albanians preserved their Christian faith). On the other hand, persecutions against heretics in Bosnia did take place. I do not want to discredit your friend (who also happens to be my compatriot), but there is a slight chance he confused us with the Bosnians. No offence; my cousin once told me we descended from Romans
What he could've meant was the refusal of the Church to accept the Crypto-Catholics as true Christians. In our language, these people were called laraman. These type of Catholics existed especially in the lowlands, where in order to maintain a level of freedom from taxes etc, they needed to make atleast an official conversion to Islam. In the highlands, particularly the region around Shkodra, the inpenetrable mountains served as a natural barrier/fortress. The Pope could not, however, accept this movement, and consequently, the laramans embraced Islam.
Regarding pashas/governors being popular in our tradition, I would agree. In particular two pashas; Karamahmud Bushati of the Shkodra sanjak (he claimed descent from the powerful Dukagjini family) and Ali pasha Tepelena of Ioannina. During their reign, our territories were essentially autonomous and only nominally under the High Porte. These two pashas even rose against the Sultan. Karamahmud Bushati's capital survived two major sieges. He died, however, in a campaign in 1796 when his forces tried to subjugate the Montenegrin clans to the north. Ali pasha rose in 1821, but his rebellion wasn't successful; his general, Omer Vrioni, betrayed him in the most crucial hour, and Ali pasha himself died later on in a small fight in the monastery of S:t Pandeleimon. He is briefly mentioned in the famous novel by Alexander Dumas, "The Count of Monte Cristo".
P:s May I ask you where you're from?
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Posted By: britani
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 12:44
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what make me surprised to this hero is the nature and the character of him.
he always called himself like the descendor of Alexander the great and Phyrro of epir.
even this when he turned back in albania he called people like epirotans and his nation like Epir.
He was a brave and a wise man too couse he kept for symbols what his ancientors (alexander & phyrro) had taken before...... ------------- |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 16:04
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Two more intresting thinks as about Kastrioti are.......
the name
His name was Georgios (ancient Greek name), and his surname Kastriotis (Kastro in Greek means castle, Kastriotis is called the person from the castle or the person with the castle).
Seal of Skanderbeg
 The inscription is in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language - Greek and reads Alexandros is an Emperor and a King. Emperor of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire - Romaic nation (Greeks) and King of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Turks - Turks , the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians - Albanians , the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs - Serbs and the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians - Bulgarians .
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 16:31
Is it written "King of Romans (Greeks)" or just "King of Romans"? I cannot find this "(Greeks)" in the inscription. ------------- . |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 16:38
Romans is the political name by which the Greeks were known during Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Greeks - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Greeks
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Posted By: britani
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 16:44
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his name is not george(how you spell it) but gjergj.
The name George has come out couse the word "gj" can not be spelled in other languages(also "sh" "rr" "dh")....so it is derivated in george how you supose.
And according to your point of view all the ancient greeks hero would be albanians couse they all have also their meaning in albanian language(if you are courious i can post them). ------------- |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 16:54
Romans were inhabitants of Roman Empire. They were not only Greeks, but also Slavs, Armenians, Hunns, Goths etc. etc. etc. It had two official languages -- Latin and Greek and many local languages. ------------- . |
Posted By: britani
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 17:02
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Posted By: britani
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 17:23
Posted By: GoldenBlood
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 19:10
alot of turks (i have been in Turkey much) heard about Skanderbeg...because Skanderbeg was the most strong general that fought againt othomans....you can't find any heroes strong that Skanderbeg (from Europe) that fought againt othomans. Skanderbeg statue is (except in Albania-Kosova-Macedonia) in Italy, Vatican, Belgium, Austria, France, Switerland, USA (Detroit), ect. Soon will be in London and Washinton. ------------- Kosova dhe Ilirida, pjese te Dardanise |
Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 20:35
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I am not sure who these "a lot of turks" are. You mean "Turks" of Albanian origin? %99.99 of Turks haven't even heard of him. This is a simple fact.
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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 02:19
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Romans were inhabitants of Roman Empire. They were not only Greeks, but also Slavs, Armenians, Hunns, Goths etc. etc. etc. It had two official languages -- Latin and Greek and many local languages.
fatih also called sultan of rums, turks, albanians bla ba bla. Absolutely, this does not mean Fatih have greek ancestory.
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Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 05:44
hmmm our expert is speaking here, how can you be so sure of it? How can Turks even not heard of him, Iskender Beg is the name given by Ottomans to him and im sure someone who did read more about Ottoman Turkish history did heard of him. ------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 06:46
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Since you were born and raised in a foreign country whose knowledge about Turkey is limited by Turkish websites, it's very natural that you see me as an expert on Turkey. I have known "Skenderbeg" for years, of course. I even introduced this Skenderbeg to the Turkish forumers in our legendry "Turkish speakers thread", which was deleted a while ago, unfortunately.
I know Skenderbeg, because of the fact that I have researched different sources, especially Albanian ones, than the Turkish sources, especially official ones. If you were born and raised in Turkey, studying Turkish history for almost 10 years in Turkish schools, you would probably have known that Skenderbeg can't be known by the mass in Turkey.
The Turkish forumers here are living proof of my statement.
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Posted By: Yugoslav
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 08:55
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I think I know why the myth of his Serbian ancestry arose. His father belonged from the age of the Serbian Empire (which included most of the Balkans) and the golden age of the reign of the Nemanjics. John Kastrioti wrote an inscription on his grave in 3 languages: Serbian, Latin and Greek. He also was a pious supporter of the Serbian Orthodox Church. Back than there was no deeper Albanian national element, so many Albanians (like this one) relied on and contributed to Serbian cultural heritage. Other than that, John Kastrioti married a Slav, Voisava (which history remembers as "Serbian Princess Vojisava"), so I think the main think why Serbs considering him "their own" is his allegedly Serbian mother. ------------- "I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones." |
Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 12:16
But most of the Turks does not like studying history. We prefer to go stadium instead of libary unfortunately------------- |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 13:36
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@ Akritas
Old pal, this thing of the seal is something you really care about, dont you
We already discussed this months ago.
First
the name George and its variants Yorgos, Gjergj, Georgij, Dorde, Durad, Giorgio, Jorge etc. are used in all the christian lands, by all the christian cultures. It cannot be a greek name.
Kastrioti, its true it looks greek, but as we agreed before, the albanian orthodoxes mostly used greek like names, but in the albanian version. When they wrote their names they used the greek or the latin version
Second
The seal itself seems abusive with its content. Skanderbeg never was neither an emperor, nor a king.
By the first historian who wrote his biography Skanderbeg was referred as Georgivs Castriotvs Epirotarvm Princeps. The historian was Barletius, an albanian from Shkodra. Skanderbeg was referred as epirote, and the region of what is now central albania was referred as Epirus.
Other times he was referred as Macedonian.
But in both cases Macedonian and Epirote were used by the only meaning this terms could have, the regional geographical one.
I believe we agree that there never existed an Epirote ethinicity, while regarding the Macedonian, in the time of Skanderbeg it was only a geographical expression. Epirus was always unhabitated by Albanians and Greeks, and in the ancient times by Illyrians and Greeks.
In Macedonia we had (and still have) this ethnicities and also an important presence of slavic people.
Two thirds of the heroes of the Greek Revolution have their names with clear albanian meanings...this would'nt mean that they were albanian, would this?
Karamanlis, is it turkish or what?
Names are just names, as I mentioned on another discussion in Albania you can find people with turkish surnames, that doesnt mean they are turks, or turkic. You can find people with slavic, greek or latin surnames, this doesnt mean that they are slavs, greeks or latins. It just means that at some point they started using that name because of regional, political or religious issues. ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 14:57
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Arber the thread is not consern the Greek heroes that fought for the freedom of Greece and your history Vaptizing as Albanian, but the Epirotan Georgios Kastriotis. Actually you have realize my view-point of my posts regarding the thread. -------------
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 15:01
I didnt know that Slavs, Armenians, Hunns, Goths e.t.c. used the Greek language in theirs official seals as Georgios Kastriotis (or the relatives) done it .!!!
 Any example ?
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 17:41
For example Tervel's medalion with
 or
 or
 or
 These are all Bulgarian stamps with Greek texts.
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Posted By: britani
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 18:02
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BarletiSkanderbeg.jpg"> 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BarletiSkanderbeg.jpg"> Frontispiece of Historia de vita et gestis Scanderbegi, Epirotarum principis by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marin_Barleti - Marin Barleti  ------------- |
Posted By: britani
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 18:18
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Posted By: Yugoslav
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 19:39
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Arhpetar.jpg">
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Arhpetar.jpg">
Lead stamp of archont Petar (or Predimir) ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9th_century - 9th century ), the first known ruler of Doclea; The Holy Virgin Mary with the Christ Child (left) and inscription in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language - Greek "+ Petar archont of Dioklia AMIN" (right). ------------- "I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones." |
Posted By: Yugoslav
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 19:48
I could not agree more. Regardless if Scanderbey had a Serbian mother, or if he was of Serb, Greek, Macedonian or even Bulgarian origins; he was and will always be an Albanian national hero and Albanian lord.  BTW Kastriotis were Catholics, I believe. ------------- "I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones." |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 05:00
Our dear friend tends to call "sirtaki" anything that moves and "tsipouro" anything that can be burned. So, do you thing that kind of kickshaw could stop him? ------------- . |
Posted By: britani
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 07:35
 this was skanderbeg"s stamp found in the museum of danimark recently------------- |
Posted By: britani
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 07:51
 and this is in the museum of lissi/lezha------------- |
Posted By: britani
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 08:14
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Century.
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Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 11:24
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Akritas, I am not saying that any of the Greek heroes could be albanian. They all were Hellenes (some of them arvanites, but that doesnt change anything, as arvanites ar nothing else but hellenes) I am just saying that names dont mean anything.
Now, you posted the seal, which is still disputed for its originallity.
But you forgot to post your points of view, or view-points as you might like to call them.
Do you support the idea that Skanderbeg was Greek, or of greek descent? Is this your standing? ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Yugoslav
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 11:59
I don't anyone COULD claim that... ------------- "I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones." |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 12:00
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Than I will also claim iskender as Turk. After all he was courageous(A turkish treat.)
We glorified him with naming our most beafitul food as iskender kebab, and look at seal.
He was king of Turks.
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Posted By: Yugoslav
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 12:05
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Albania-of-Gjergj-Kastrioti.jpg"> I found this map, representing the Albania under Skanderbeg. How authentic is this? Everyone whom I asked said that it's not correct and it looks odd to myself. ------------- "I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones." |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 14:58
Of course I am not support that Kastriotis was Greek.The evidence of his origin differ and this is the reason that I call him as the last Great Christian Leader (geographically) before Balkan felt under Ottoman rule. Actually was leader of the united Christian forces (Greeks,Albanians and Slavs).
@ Mortaza you got my meaning of my last posts
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Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 16:08
This map is not correct, actually far from correct.
The Skanderbeg state (actually a federation of small principalities) was far smaller. The southernmost borders were in the Berat area, in the west it was the Adriatic, but he never controlled Durrės, Vlora Shkodra and Lezha, which were under Venice. The northernmost border included what is now southrn montenegro, and in the east it had only the western Kosova, and northewstern FYROM.
The map provided by Yugoslav is totally abusive...where did you get that?
@ Akritas
Well if you say that Skanderbeg was a commander of Greeks, Slavs and Albanians you have to prove that too. Which are your sources? Skanderbeg never fought in Greece, or even in what you call Northern-Epirus... ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Yugoslav
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 17:35
Well, one Albanian Wikipedian said that Albanians populated those regions (Montenegro-Kosovo-Macedonia-Epirus) continually until the Ottoman defeat (he presented a map of 4 Ottoman Vilayets that are shaped pretty much similar to the one from the 15th century. This one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:4AlbanianVilayets.jpg"> BTW there having the VERY SAME conversations over at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Skanderbeg and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Skanderbeg/Archive_1 ------------- "I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones." |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2007 at 04:03
I didnt say that Skanderberg fought in Greece, but Greek fought with him. The struggle of Georgios Kastriotis were struggles of an Orthodox Christian leader against the Turks in order to it keeps the Province free. He was Epirote , as irrefutably declares the following Historical Sources, that they constitute monumental documents and show him a strong connection with the Greeks :
The Marini Barletii, his first Biographer from the Skodra (beginnings 16th AD), him calls "Epirote prince" and "Sovereign of Epirus", while entire biography is reported only in Epirotes and never in Albanians. Also, himself Georgios Kastriotis addressing to the sovereign of Taranta Ioannis Antonio and giving out his origin and his genuine feelings, writes(in greek of course): "my forefathers were Epirotes from which Pyrrhus rose that only the Romans could push back . Similarly as a descendant of Epirotes and not of the Illyrians he mentions in his letter to the Italian Ursini in 1460. Still to the King Alfonso, monarch of Aragon, Naples and Sicily he writes(in greek of course): "The shining and mighty king Alfonso, monarch of Aragon, Naples and Sicily Skenderbeis hails and wishes well ". Speaking in the presence of the Pope Paul B he stresses: "After the subjection of Asia and Greece, after the slaughter of her hegemonic spawns of Constantinople , the Trapezounta ... and the desolation of biggest part of Macedonia and Epirus, against the savage conqueror that seeks to ruin the cross the cross, and elevate on the Capitol the crescent and fulfillment of slavery of all the world ... alone i stand with the relic of my soldiers and with my small territory...". He had Greek Education and spoke the Greek Language, after by his Letters were sent written in the Greek language. Moreover the All Turkish biographer of Ali, Ahmet Moyfjt, writes for Georgios Kastriotis: "in the year 1443 he escaped from the Ottoman camp of Morava the Greek sovereign Kastriotis and went to the seat of his ancestors, the Kroia". Italian, English and Swedish reports consider Georgios Kastriotis a Greek. Thus Italian A. Salvi in the tragedy of (1718) he mentions him as a Greek (Greco Georgios Kastriotis). The English C. Randall in 1810 him calls Greek Hero (Grecian Hero) and the Swedish Barrau initially and Rudbeck later (1835) considers the Georgios Kastriotis a Greek. The History of French of historical Paganel (Paganel: Histoire de Scanderbey), that was published in Paris in 1855 about him says he is evidently a Greek. Want also a Albanian admission of Greek Epirote origin of Georgios Kastriotis The Albanian stamp of 1968, supplementing that year 500 years from his death, presents the cover of mentioned before History of Barletii, that is entered in this clearly, that was Epirote prince (Epirotarum Principis) and not Albanian or Illyrian. It writes the cover: "HISTORIA DE VITA ET GESTIS SCANDERBEGI EPIROTARUM PRINCIPIS". Consequently, equitably Danish Franz Nte Zesse'n, military correspondent of the newspaper "Le Temps of" Paris, doubts for the Albanian origin of Georgios Kastriotis, stressing in his lecture: "Question is, if also this Georgios Kastriotis is able to be considered Albanian, after he was son of Greek of Ioannis Kastriotis and of a Serbian princess ". Benjamin Disraeli quoted in THE RISE OF ISKANDER several quotes that show his Greek connections........2.3 The despots of Bosnia, Servia, and Bulgaria, and the Grecian princes of Etolia, Macedon, Epirus, Athens, Phocis, Boeotia, and indeed of all the regions to the straits of Corinth, were tributaries to Amurat........4.39 "I am a Grecian Prince, and a compulsory ally of the Moslemin.
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2007 at 05:20
Since what time Benjamin Disraeli became "historical source" about the events from 15th century? ------------- . |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2007 at 05:25
These are not historical sources. Some private opinions of people lived many many years before. The pearl with Albanian stamps can be used as the AE quote of the day. ------------- . |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2007 at 05:31
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Anton I dont have any other source like photo or tv reporting or better a 15th birth certification from the despotato of Epirus.
just the historians and biographers of the 18th and 19th centuries!!
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2007 at 05:32
This lead to the discussion who were Epirotans -- Greek or Illyrians. As far as I understood from long AE discussions the greekness of Epirotans is as much doubtfull as greekness of Macedonians. ------------- . |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2007 at 05:34
Akritas, sources ideally should be written by people who personally know him. All later documents are just interpretations. ------------- . |
Posted By: britani
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2007 at 08:05
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The Marini Barletii, his first Biographer from the Skodra (beginnings 16th AD), him calls "Epirote prince" and "Sovereign of Epirus", while entire biography is reported only in Epirotes and never in Albanians.
Similarly as a descendant of Epirotes and not of the Illyrians he mentions in his letter to the Italian Ursini in 1460.
whats going on with you men???...you say he was an "epirotan prince" and not a illyrian/albanian one.All these sound me rediciolous.
But you have to know that epirus was more a geografical term and in that time it was populated by albans/epirotans/illyrians/shqiptare/(call them how you want couse they were all one blood).
The illyrian term wasnt in use so much that time(1460) couse it was so old for that period and Skanderbeg couldnt call himself like illyrian even if he was an (antic) illyrian one but like epirotan couse this nick (epirotans) was dedicted to albanians that time.
Skanderbeg called himself like the descendor of Phyrro of Epir and Alexander the great couse he knew the history better of us and even this he choised for symbols what these two great men had taken before(this isnt a coincidens) ------------- |
Posted By: britani
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2007 at 08:18
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originally posted by akritas
The Marini Barletii, his first Biographer from the Skodra (beginnings 16th AD), him calls "Epirote prince" and "Sovereign of Epirus", while entire biography is reported only in Epirotes and never in Albanians.
as for albanian languge it couldnt be written in that time(couse we had more important things to do like to protect our nation from occupators) and the better way to writte in that time was with an other wellknown language like greece or italic one. The world couldnt know the history with an unwritten languge....thats why his history have been written in foreign. ------------- |