1916 Rising in Ireland. Progress or regress?

Originally posted by Denis Heres another posing question:   What if the Free State aided Britain in WW2 and Churchill lived up to his promise of helping us get the North if we co-operated during the war?

Churchill tried to lure Ireland into the war by 'promising to work towards unity with Northern Ireland'. I think they were his exact words. I'm sure I could find it somewhere on the net.

Well getting back to the actual topic as intended(many people went off it even thoguh I saw many things I want to reply to I will stick to the Topic) I believe that the 1916 Rebellion in the Long run did do good for Ireland. For the following reasons. First of all though it was doomed to military Failure from the start(as not as many men or guns as intended were used in the Rising and it was well known that it would not succeed.) But even though it was doomed to failure it awakened Irish Nationalism and brought the Nation hood of the Country back. Many Men who would later be Drivng forces in the War of Independance were Junior Officers or Soldiers in the Rising(Including one Michael Collins without who we would have no Republic of Ireland today) Also It needs to be said that I do not believe that the Rising as Intended was a Weak Shot for Independance as someone else said. In the Start the Rising was meant to be a Nation wide one. However many things did go wrong and in the end it was largely Confined to Dublin. At that Point it was doomed to Failure but them Men still went out and Fought for there Country. I for one think that takes Guts. But thats getting away from the Historical Context of it.Fact is that more of the Irish people after the Rising were on the Old IRAs side. Not just because of the Executions of the Rebels but also because of the fact that Curfew and Other Annoying Laws as well as some bans were put on Ireland after the Rising took place. But besides all that the Rising began what was to become the War of Independance and It did restore Nationalism to this Country. So Yes I do beleive that in the long run the Rising did more Good for Ireland than Bad. Also On another topic I saw Churchill would never have given The North to Ireland that was a Lie from the start and that is why Valera did not buy into it. Even if he did give it to us what do you think the Reaction of the Oroange men and Loyalists would be??? It would never of happened. It was just a Political Lie designed to get wa time Britain another Allie. And lastly I also must say that Without Republican Voilance at the time there would be no Republic today. I do not support the IRA today in any way but we must distinguish the two apart from each other. One was a Guerrilla Independance movement whitch attacked British Soldiers Spys and Officials. The other is a Criminal Organisation that Blows up Buildings and kills inocent people. And Voilance was needed at the time The time for talking was over. We had enough Centurys of Talking with the British and fact is that a Super power like britain was at the time would never give Independance to Ireland unless they were forced into it or at least had to put up a fight to try and keep Ireland. I mean why else would they?? Without the War of Independance we would have no Republic today and as a other User already said Ireland would be like Wales and Scotland today. Sorry for the Long comment but I wanted to get back to a few things

What would have happened had the Germans taken the plan seriously, went into cahoots with the rebels, won the 'war' in Ireland and then had a base from which to attack Britain on two fronts? Would it have been justified to use the Germans like this, even though it could have led to the Germans winning the war and the majority of Europe speaking german today? These were real possibilities had the rebels enlisted the German's help.

The german could have easily landed hundreds of soldier to Ireland if they wanted to, and they didnt take the plan seriously, sending out sub-standard arms in the first place. They thought it was crackpot. But if they had of taken over Ireland, they could have launched short trip air bombing raids at the British mainland, as well as docking their navy there. It would have turned the tide against Britain.

Originally posted by Dolphin The german could have easily landed hundreds of soldier to Ireland if they wanted to, and they didnt take the plan seriously, sending out sub-standard arms in the first place. They thought it was crackpot. But if they had of taken over Ireland, they could have launched short trip air bombing raids at the British mainland, as well as docking their navy there. It would have turned the tide against Britain.

...and  the British could have easily defeated that plan if they wanted to.
...and the Irish could have easily been the first nation to land on the moon... if they wanted to.
...and I could have easily married Eliza Cuthbert... if I wanted to.

Do you see the problem with prefacing an action " they could have easily" and ending it "if they wanted to"? It can easily justify anything you want it to regardless of the reality.

The reality of the time was the German's were in no position to invade Ireland unless they controlled the sea. They never managed that throughout the war. Their fleet was held up in the North Sea by the British so they could not have used Ireland as a place to dock and they were capable of launching bombing raids from Europe.

The actions of Britain in taking over Ireland are accesory to this discussion, as it is the actions of the rebels that are under scrutiny. And in my view, they acted irresponsibly and short-sightedly. Just my opinion. And in case ya think it, i'm not pro-British or anything, I just dont buy into the 'great hero of 1916 thing'..

Yes the actions of Britain in taking over Ireland are not really relevant to this discussion, what is relevant though, is Britain's actions being in Ireland in 1916 for the simple reason: no British no rebels. However mythical German invasions of Ireland are also wholly irrelevant to this discussion and do not reflect the reality of the War or the Rising.

I still fail to see how the attempted liberation of my country is irresponsible, but hey that's just me, I happen to not agree with Imperialism be it German or British. It seems from your line of arguing that you are in favour of British Imperialism and in my experience there is only one kind of Irishman in favour of British Imperialism...

Originally posted by Dolphin But then he wouldn't be Irish would he?   Peaceful means all the way, that's what I say, call me what you will..

A Pacificist?...who supports  British Imperialism...that's quite bizzare

Originally posted by Parnell Talk about twisting things. He doesn't support Imperialism of any sort, and I highly doubt he's a full blown pacifist. Its called common sense.

Maybe he can speak for himself? So why does he think the Rising was selfish and irresponsible in the context of the British War effort? Seems fairly cut and dry to me why someone would think such a thing. British Imperialism is "good", German imperialism "bad", Irish Rebels fighting against the British Empire are "selfish and irresponsible" because their actions may have imperiled British Imperialist interests in Ireland and elsewhere.

At the time the Rising was begun, the people were content with the thoughout of Home Rule, based on the stepping stone concept which Collins later advocated.

I think you wish they were content. The people for all intents and purposes wanted self determination. Something the British were vehemently against.

The absolutist rubbish the Shinners later adopted have completely ruined this country; the lack of pragmatism inherent causing the Civil War.

As for Shinner absolutist rubbish ruining the country? I don't even know what that means to be honest but anyway the last time I looked the country was doing alright. Thew Civil War was a terrible tragedy and probably should never have happened, however I don't see the relevance here to 1916 other than giving you an excuse to rant.

It truly is remarkable how a radical few had completely changed the political playing field in this country, but there you go

Yes the indomitable  Human spirit is  remarkable. I don't see why you are so bitter about it though it's not good for the heart... chillax man



Edited by F�dhla - 17-Aug-2007 at 12:21

Originally posted by Parnell I'm not bitter about anything! You were the one who twisted what he said to make it seem like he supported 'British Imperialism'. Seemed like the same auld sh*te Shinner talk I'm all too used to hearing it!

I didn't twist anything. It's the logical conclusion of what he is saying.  However I think you'd want to lose those bitter prejudices life is too short!

Ah well there are none so blind as those that will not see, nothing I can do I suppose. Does beg the question why you are blathering on ranting and raving about "shinners" in a thread on 1916?