A clown he may be but this is how I imagine you Denis typing away your nonsense on the computer

thats a difficult question. . . .in terms of progress or regress it comes down to everybody's own personal opinion. In my opinion i feel that there could have been two possible scenarios in 1916. It must be remembered that at the time in 1916 a lot of irish people in general were happy under british rule, demonstrated by the fact the rebels had rotten fruit thrown at them after their surrender. Had there not been a rising, Ireland most probably would have been granted home rule. If this had happened ireland would still be under british rule and be no different to scotland or wales at this time. The fact is the executions of pearse, connolly etc. awoke a yearning for total independence in the majority of irish people which in turn led to the war of independence. Overall the rising was the catalyst for the 26 counties achieving total independence from britain and is the reason we are now able to make our own laws free from british rule. The rising may have been a horribly planned cheap shot at a nation on it's knees but without the rising we would most likely be no more than a puppet state like scotland or wales having to pay taxes to the Queen and for that reason i have to say overall it proved to be progress

Well getting back to the actual topic as intended(many people went off it even thoguh I saw many things I want to reply to I will stick to the Topic) I believe that the 1916 Rebellion in the Long run did do good for Ireland. For the following reasons. First of all though it was doomed to military Failure from the start(as not as many men or guns as intended were used in the Rising and it was well known that it would not succeed.) But even though it was doomed to failure it awakened Irish Nationalism and brought the Nation hood of the Country back. Many Men who would later be Drivng forces in the War of Independance were Junior Officers or Soldiers in the Rising(Including one Michael Collins without who we would have no Republic of Ireland today) Also It needs to be said that I do not believe that the Rising as Intended was a Weak Shot for Independance as someone else said. In the Start the Rising was meant to be a Nation wide one. However many things did go wrong and in the end it was largely Confined to Dublin. At that Point it was doomed to Failure but them Men still went out and Fought for there Country. I for one think that takes Guts. But thats getting away from the Historical Context of it.Fact is that more of the Irish people after the Rising were on the Old IRAs side. Not just because of the Executions of the Rebels but also because of the fact that Curfew and Other Annoying Laws as well as some bans were put on Ireland after the Rising took place. But besides all that the Rising began what was to become the War of Independance and It did restore Nationalism to this Country. So Yes I do beleive that in the long run the Rising did more Good for Ireland than Bad. Also On another topic I saw Churchill would never have given The North to Ireland that was a Lie from the start and that is why Valera did not buy into it. Even if he did give it to us what do you think the Reaction of the Oroange men and Loyalists would be??? It would never of happened. It was just a Political Lie designed to get wa time Britain another Allie. And lastly I also must say that Without Republican Voilance at the time there would be no Republic today. I do not support the IRA today in any way but we must distinguish the two apart from each other. One was a Guerrilla Independance movement whitch attacked British Soldiers Spys and Officials. The other is a Criminal Organisation that Blows up Buildings and kills inocent people. And Voilance was needed at the time The time for talking was over. We had enough Centurys of Talking with the British and fact is that a Super power like britain was at the time would never give Independance to Ireland unless they were forced into it or at least had to put up a fight to try and keep Ireland. I mean why else would they?? Without the War of Independance we would have no Republic today and as a other User already said Ireland would be like Wales and Scotland today. Sorry for the Long comment but I wanted to get back to a few things

Al Jassas hi;

As you say you can not tell me the history of my country, indeed I only know it too well. I have to say dissident Irish people and your own conclusions are not a good mix. Regarding your point about the Catholic Church it was well noted the first time and as I explained was complete rubbish, simply reiterating the point doesn’t change that fact. It is still a myth; indeed, subsequent responses to this thread have actually proven me right on that.

However, you do say going against the Catholic Church was a death sentence for politicians; maybe you would like to name some names or give some examples? Off the top of my head I can think of one politician who went against the Catholic Church many times, Éamon de Valera and most notably when he refused to make the Catholic Church the official Church in his 1937 Constitution. De Valera was, of course, the most successful Irish politician of this period.

As for your contention that Irish People have no right to Independence, well, a good few million Irish men and women would disagree, somehow I think their opinion matters more than yours. Your contention is nothing to do with history by the way, it is politics which I refuse to discuss. I will say one thing though; staying under foreign domination would not have improved the lot of the Irish people. Ireland would have still remained a neglected region social conditions would have been bad if not worse. In fact I could envision a scenario whereby disaffection with social conditions, combined with the tradition of Armed Insurrection, as well as the spread communism, aligned with radicals such as Connolly, Larkin, Mellows, O’Casey and others would have probably made Ireland ripe for sustained violence that could well have even led to a communist takeover, maybe a European Cuba?

Britain did not force conscription on Ireland because it was not politically expedient for them to do so, not as you seem to believe out of the goodness of their heart. I think you have just proven your own lack of understanding of Irish history here. Ireland did indeed send their wishes for independence peacefully and democratically. For the thirty years previous to the WWI Irish People had agitated democratically for self rule, in 1919 they even sent a message through their democratically elected Government to the Peace Conference which Britain refused to even acknowledge. So I think its fair to say that Irish People had been waiting long enough, the simple fact is that the British Government did not want to grant Irish People Independence as ALL the evidence shows.

Dolphin a chara,

You left out the most important part of my post when you quoted me: "Of course this reverence is strange to our secular 21st Century thinking, if not a little extreme but retrospectively applying our 21st Century thinking to this period is wrong as it distorts our understanding of the past"...
why? Were you incapable of understanding what it meant or did you just wilfully ignore it so you could get your little rant in?

It doesn’t matter either way you proved me right by distorting the past. Indeed you even have to create a new myth in the process, that " people " were " misled ". It’s funny everything you don’t agree with comes down to the fact that " people " were " misled ". What a delightfully empty phrase that says everything and nothing all at the same time! lol! I suppose " people " were being " misled " since the time of St Patrick? lol!

Yes the Church abused its position; yes secularism is a good thing. That still doesn’t mean that there was oppression of the church. As I said it is largely a modern day myth that simply distorts the past.

Hello http://www.allempires.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=6564&FID=16 - Fódhla