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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Biggest Empires
    Posted: 21-Nov-2004 at 08:02
Perhaps a stupid question, but didn't the Mongolians use handheld guns as well? IIRC they did have gunpowder.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2004 at 13:00
not really, they had so called firelances, btu that are basically just lances with some sort of firework attached. basically a small one-way flamethrower but by no means as deadly...
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2004 at 14:25
but after the original Mongol empire certain Mongol affiliates used gunpoweder, most famously babur.
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  Quote Dragon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2004 at 16:36
Originally posted by warhead

3) Gokturk empire which occupied mongolia from mid 6th-8th century

I always thought before the time of Ghenghis Kahn Mongolia had never been a unified state or empire, but rather a bunch of politically inconsequential in-fighting tribes.  Do you have a source on the Gokturk empire?

BTW, the Mongols did not have hand-held firearms, only firelances which were, as was said above, basically fireworks which was only useful to start fires in cities (a very powerful weapon in the day of straw and wooden buildings) or an incredibly lucky shot could kill a man.  They had awesome technology in their time, but the idea of a hand-held rifle was far beyond their technological capabilties.



Edited by Dragon
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  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 17:31
Mongolia was united many times before Chingis. Alot of the nomadic empires were sketchy and most of the information comes from contact with sedentary civilization.

Kok Turuk Empire:

http://allempires.com/empires/gokturk1/gokturk1.htm

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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 22:14

"We're speaking about empire so it mean controled and administered territories, not tributary states( which generally don't bother themself making war, just sending some presents, considered by chinese dynasty as a sign of submission)"

 

No, these vassals are required to visit court, provide troops for campaigns and are politically obedient to the ruling state not just some state that merely present gifts.

 

 

"Tibet(tufan on your map) has never been crontrolled by yuan administration, actually tibetan and mongols did have the same religion, but the dalai lama was tibetan and so was considered by yuan as the head of the religion. That why no expedition was ever send against qiang nation. "

 

Tibet was controlled by the Yuan, administrative prefectures are set up over it, although it wasn't under direct central control, it was part of the Yuan empire. But Yuan never did control territory west of Hami as shown on that map, plus Yuan had cannons not just normal firearms.

Huigu, xixia and nuzhen were only tributary states, they were independant states.

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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 22:18

"yes modern china is big, but ancient is not: remove neimenggu, xizang, xinjiang, heilongjiang  yunnan nor qinghai. So classical chinese size would only be 1.5 million."

 

Thats merely China proper, the military garrison of Han extended well beyond China proper, controlling the whole of Tarim Basin. Yunnan was a Han province, and large part of Qin Hai under the Chiang had Han military garrisons in them.

 

" Don't forget that at this time romans only took the fertile and populated north africa."

 

Roman Empire's direct control was only 2.2 million sq mile not including client states. Han's was 2.4 million sq mile including all its garrisoned frontier, including vassal state it would be 2.8 million sq mile.

 

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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 22:20

"I always thought before the time of Ghenghis Kahn Mongolia had never been a unified state or empire, but rather a bunch of politically inconsequential in-fighting tribes.  Do you have a source on the Gokturk empire?"

 

the following nomads united all of mongolia:

1. xiongnu

2. Xianbei

3) Rouran

4) Tujue

5) Uighur

 

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  Quote mongke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2004 at 22:09
How about the inca empire? They didn't have fire arms.
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  Quote Genghis Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2004 at 00:40
Originally posted by warhead

"I always thought before the time of Ghenghis Kahn Mongolia had never been a unified state or empire, but rather a bunch of politically inconsequential in-fighting tribes.  Do you have a source on the Gokturk empire?"

 

the following nomads united all of mongolia:

1. xiongnu

2. Xianbei

3) Rouran

4) Tujue

5) Uighur

 

mongolia was just a bunch of tribes. temujin then unified the tribes and started his conquest. that was when his people named him genghis khan(universal ruler). genghis was not only a military genius , but also a politcal genius. genghis left behind a well organized empire stretching 8,000 miles east to west(from the sea of japan to hungary)and 2,000 miles north to south(frome the forest of siberia to central iran, the himalayas and china). it was 16 million suare miles.

It is not sufficient that I succeed--all others must fail.

-- Genghis Khan
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  Quote sephodwyrm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2004 at 03:45
Temujin is of the Borzhijin, one of the many tribes of Mongols. Others include Qonggirats, Naiman, Merkits, Taichyuds and many others.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2004 at 13:27
borjigin was his clan, not his tribe. he was of the khyiad tribe of the taichy'uts.
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  Quote mongke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2004 at 21:29

If we take the mongol empire as a single entity up to the rule of mongke it would still be amontg the larger empires in history. Up to them khanates were just parcels of mongol domain divided up among the descendants of Chingghis Khan. Sort of like tasking a general to conquer land and putting him in charge of taking care of the conquered land. After mongke family feuding really got the best of the mongol empire.

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2004 at 13:54
I would also like to mention the umayyad caliphate, it was also larger than the roman empire.
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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 16:56

"mongolia was just a bunch of tribes."

It was a bunch of tribes in 1200 a.d., it was united many times before.

 

"stretching 8,000 miles east to west(from the sea of japan to hungary)and 2,000 miles north to south(frome the forest of siberia to central iran, the himalayas and china). "

 

That wasn't Genghis, it was his sucessors.

"it was 16 million suare miles."

 

No it wasn't, unless you include all of Soviet Union within its domian which is preposterous

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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 16:57

"not really, they had so called firelances, btu that are basically just lances with some sort of firework attached. basically a small one-way flamethrower but by no means as deadly..."

 

The earliest handheld gun for mongols is uncovered in 1271 a.d., and most likely already existed during the middle of the 13th century.

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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 11:12

1-Mongol empire

2-Abbasid caliphat

3-Roman empire

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  Quote Slickmeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 14:03

Originally posted by sephodwyrm

Temujin is of the Borzhijin, one of the many tribes of Mongols. Others include Qonggirats, Naiman, Merkits, Taichyuds and many others.

The Naiman were actually more as Turkic people than Mongol

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  Quote mongke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 17:53

The Han Empire and Tang should be listed as well.

Hsiung Nu.

 

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  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2005 at 18:44

"...

2) Tang empire: 4.8 million sq mile

..."

 

Tang empire 12.000.000 km2? When?

And, how can we count the nomad territory? Since xioung nu...

 

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