no, not yet, durign Möngke Qa'ans rule it was basically as large as it was after the fragmentation, or in other words: it was still the largest.

btw: post-gunpowder empires are ruled out.

"When the Mongolian Empire was at its largest it had already fallen apart in different states, therefore it's not one empire. The biggest Empire ever was the British Empire (in 1923). The British empire occupied 25% of world territory."

He said before the invention of the handgun, which does not include British.

"no, not yet, durign Möngke Qa'ans rule it was basically as large as it was after the fragmentation, or in other words: it was still the largest."

With the exception it did not have Song China which had near 700,000 sq miles of territory.

In size order in approximation(including all effective subjects of the empire):

1) Mongol empire:  9.3 million sq mile

2) Tang empire: 4.8 million sq mile

3) Tujue empire: 4 million sq mile

4) Umayyad Caliph: 3.5 million sq mile

5) Xiongnu empire: 2.4 million sq mile

6) Roman empire: 2.4 million sq mile

7) Achmenid empire: 2.3 million sq mile

8) Macedonian Empire: 2.2 million sq mile

9) Xianbei empire: 1.9 million sq mile

10) Seljuk Empire: 1.8 million sq mile

"What about the Brits eh? "

As already said, if you read the title, its before the invention of handgun, which does not include the British.

Originally posted by MixcoatlToltecahtecuhtli Originally posted by Kalevipoeg Mongols still kick British ass anywho!!!!!!!!!!! A united land empire is something else than hundreds of colonies around the world. On the other hand, if you add the amount of sea controlled by the Brits they kick more ass than the Mongols .

in that case it's the Polynesians: new zeeland, easter islands, hawaii pre 1500...that'S just amazing...

"On the other hand, if you add the amount of sea controlled by the Brits they kick more ass than the Mongols "

The sea isn't controlled by the British in the sense of a possession, or else the United States own most of the world and would kick both the British and the Mongol ass.

Also its quite pointless to judge by sheer size alone, we should judge the percentage of the territory dominated by the conquer in comparison to the rest of the POLITICALLY dominated world. Thus, Australia, Antarctica, Much of South America, western United States, Most of Canada, parts of Africa, parts of southern india, east indies, and large parts of present day east Russia are still either uninhabited or hunter gather society inhabited by savages or semi nomadic savages that does not have a state or political boundary in the 13th century, (these territory makes up over a quarter of the globe's surface) we should exclude these in calculating the total share of the world's territory. In this case, the mongols had over a quarter of the world's land. More than the British.

Why not?

Ah, thanks. Then in that case, I want to go for the Roman Empire. It wasn't the largest, but it was definately a massive empire.

Well you cant really judge empires on size alone as empires like the Mongolian empire werent completely controlled by the mongols, much of it was just barren land. If you go on the theory of size alone, the bigest empire was controlled by the first creature to have thoughts of control, he/she/it was the 'unchallenged' ruler of the world. rwar! 

bah, so what exactly did the brits rule? nothing! the Mongols did not control "just barren land", they destroyed many large and migthy empries to get where they've been, which large and migthy emprie s did the british destroy? none! even Spanish conquered Aztecs and Incas which were powerfull empires, so they're much more of an emprie than Great Britain ever was.

" I will say that the Spanish Empire was the largest one."

They also don't count.

Thank you, now could someone say what empires 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 9, and 10 were?  I can imagine probably most are Chinese and Oriental, and maybe a couple are Indian.  I've heard of Seljuk before.  And I'm surprised the Persian empire isn't on there, unless it really is under a different name.

And can I stress how I said before the invention of the handheld gun!  That means both the Spanish and British empires suck.

By the way, are these forums HTML?

"2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 9, and 10 were?"

2) Chinese dynasty from 618-907

3) Gokturk empire which occupied mongolia from mid 6th-8th century

4) Islamic empire

5) Asiatic hunnic empire that occupied mongolia from 3rd century b.c.-2nd century a.d.

7) Persian empire

9) Brief empire in mongolia established by Tang Shi Huai in the middle of 2nd century a.d.

10) Turkish empire that swept through the middle east in the 11th century, part of the reason the crusades are sent.

i thought this was pre-handheld gun.  if not the British control 25% of the world.

   The true  question is: " Which was the biggest empire considering only fertile lands and populated regions"

   The roman empire wins

 wrong :

 yes modern china is big, but ancient is not: remove neimenggu, xizang, xinjiang, heilongjiang  yunnan nor qinghai. So classical chinese size would only be 1.5 million.

 The yuan never had an empire including all modern china, check maps

 Don't forget that at this time romans only took the fertile and populated north africa.

 the small lowly populated part of iberia can't compared with the huge lowly populated and unfertile steppes 

 We're speaking about empire so it mean controled and administered territories, not tributary states( which generally don't bother themself making war, just sending some presents, considered by chinese dynasty as a sign of submission)

 Tibet(tufan on your map) has never been crontrolled by yuan administration, actually tibetan and mongols did have the same religion, but the dalai lama was tibetan and so was considered by yuan as the head of the religion. That why no expedition was ever send against qiang nation.

Huigu, xixia and nuzhen were only tributary states, they were independant states.

 Your map is uncorrect because it don't show the differences i just mentionned

I always thought before the time of Ghenghis Kahn Mongolia had never been a unified state or empire, but rather a bunch of politically inconsequential in-fighting tribes.  Do you have a source on the Gokturk empire?

BTW, the Mongols did not have hand-held firearms, only firelances which were, as was said above, basically fireworks which was only useful to start fires in cities (a very powerful weapon in the day of straw and wooden buildings) or an incredibly lucky shot could kill a man.  They had awesome technology in their time, but the idea of a hand-held rifle was far beyond their technological capabilties.

"We're speaking about empire so it mean controled and administered territories, not tributary states( which generally don't bother themself making war, just sending some presents, considered by chinese dynasty as a sign of submission)"

No, these vassals are required to visit court, provide troops for campaigns and are politically obedient to the ruling state not just some state that merely present gifts.

"Tibet(tufan on your map) has never been crontrolled by yuan administration, actually tibetan and mongols did have the same religion, but the dalai lama was tibetan and so was considered by yuan as the head of the religion. That why no expedition was ever send against qiang nation. "

Tibet was controlled by the Yuan, administrative prefectures are set up over it, although it wasn't under direct central control, it was part of the Yuan empire. But Yuan never did control territory west of Hami as shown on that map, plus Yuan had cannons not just normal firearms.

Huigu, xixia and nuzhen were only tributary states, they were independant states.

"yes modern china is big, but ancient is not: remove neimenggu, xizang, xinjiang, heilongjiang  yunnan nor qinghai. So classical chinese size would only be 1.5 million."

Thats merely China proper, the military garrison of Han extended well beyond China proper, controlling the whole of Tarim Basin. Yunnan was a Han province, and large part of Qin Hai under the Chiang had Han military garrisons in them.

" Don't forget that at this time romans only took the fertile and populated north africa."

Roman Empire's direct control was only 2.2 million sq mile not including client states. Han's was 2.4 million sq mile including all its garrisoned frontier, including vassal state it would be 2.8 million sq mile.

"I always thought before the time of Ghenghis Kahn Mongolia had never been a unified state or empire, but rather a bunch of politically inconsequential in-fighting tribes.  Do you have a source on the Gokturk empire?"

the following nomads united all of mongolia:

1. xiongnu

2. Xianbei

3) Rouran

4) Tujue

5) Uighur

mongolia was just a bunch of tribes. temujin then unified the tribes and started his conquest. that was when his people named him genghis khan(universal ruler). genghis was not only a military genius , but also a politcal genius. genghis left behind a well organized empire stretching 8,000 miles east to west(from the sea of japan to hungary)and 2,000 miles north to south(frome the forest of siberia to central iran, the himalayas and china). it was 16 million suare miles.

If we take the mongol empire as a single entity up to the rule of mongke it would still be amontg the larger empires in history. Up to them khanates were just parcels of mongol domain divided up among the descendants of Chingghis Khan. Sort of like tasking a general to conquer land and putting him in charge of taking care of the conquered land. After mongke family feuding really got the best of the mongol empire.

"mongolia was just a bunch of tribes."

It was a bunch of tribes in 1200 a.d., it was united many times before.

"stretching 8,000 miles east to west(from the sea of japan to hungary)and 2,000 miles north to south(frome the forest of siberia to central iran, the himalayas and china). "

That wasn't Genghis, it was his sucessors.

"it was 16 million suare miles."

No it wasn't, unless you include all of Soviet Union within its domian which is preposterous

"not really, they had so called firelances, btu that are basically just lances with some sort of firework attached. basically a small one-way flamethrower but by no means as deadly..."

The earliest handheld gun for mongols is uncovered in 1271 a.d., and most likely already existed during the middle of the 13th century.

1-Mongol empire

2-Abbasid caliphat

3-Roman empire

The Naiman were actually more as Turkic people than Mongol

The Han Empire and Tang should be listed as well.

Hsiung Nu.

"...

2) Tang empire: 4.8 million sq mile

..."

Tang empire 12.000.000 km2? When?

And, how can we count the nomad territory? Since xioung nu...

"That wasn't Genghis, it was his sucessors.

"it was 16 million suare miles."

No it wasn't, unless you include all of Soviet Union within its domian which is preposterous"

unless the encyclopedia book which was right in front of my face at the time is lieing the you would be right. it didnt say what the square miles were in his empire but it did say it was 8,000 miles east to west and 2,000 miles north to south. to find square mileage you would multiply 8,000 by 2,000 and you get 16 million sq miles.

"Who cares a lot of the land is worthless land."

if that was the case, that would mean most of the known world was worthless.

mongol land, yes

I do believe that the Mongol Empire was the biggest of them all.. considering the fact that it was in one single land mass. But then mongols were nomads...even Ghengiz under whom the mongols terrorized the world was only interested in looting and conquering the areas not ruling or administering them.....so I doubt whther the word 'Empire' suits them.

               I'm surprised to see that none of you guyz are aware about indian history.I doubt whether you guys have heard about Mughal Empire or the empire of King Ashoka.

the Mughal Empire

King Ashoka's empire

do let me knw wat u guyzz think

i know about the Mughal Empire, they were the largest and secound last Islamic empire after the Ottoman. and their most famouse thing in India is the Taj Mahal.

i have been to india lots of times and Taj mahal is NOT the greatest thing they did, there is lost of great palaces and forts worth mentioning.

it was a large empire but not that large compared to the Mongols or the Romans or the Ummayad.

i think it was smaller than the Savavid empire

that's not true, sedentary people could at best only temproary control the steppe and only via vassals until the invention of firearms. so it was not free for all, and of course the steppe chanegd a lot due to migratiosn but of course nomad means wanderer so what's so strange about that? there where never many hgue empires int eh steppe, unlike in cultivated areas.

Tang empire manage to conquer and hold on to the large chunk of the steppe for some decades and it was under direct control. It was archieve before the invention of firearms.

when you say European Empire you mean an Empire in Europe only or an Empire which its capital inside Europe or an Empire which is formed by Europians?

and why does many People Not consider the Islamic states in Spain as Europian? they lived in that land for 800 years, before the spanish language exist

and that was a Europian land.

I believe the meaning of European is being founded by Europeans and being governed in "western" ways.

Btw, Azimuth I liked the photo of Sultan Al Zayed that you posted. I was in Dubai a little time after his death and took the time to read about his life. He really transformed the region!

yes he is a great man and our first leader and the founder of the UAE union

and he is not  a Sultan  his title is Sheikh and his name is Zayed and his father name is Sultan and the family name is Nahyan

so in full it will be  H.H Sheikh Zayed Bin Sultan AL-Nahyan

Ok, I thought that Sultan was the title, I hadn't realized it was a name.

Now that I think about it, I should remember that the title amongst Arabs is usually Sheikh, not Sultan

I liked his pictures with the hunting falcons. Have you ever done this sport? It looks amazing!

Arabic royal  titles include Sultan, Sheikh, Malik(King),  Emir 

in UAE we have only the Title Sheikh for all the members of the royal families including the rulers ( for Females its Sheikha) and the ruler is called Raees (President) 

in Sudi Arabia they Use the Title Malik  for the King and the rest of the royal family members are Emir (prince) and Emira for the femails including the King's wifes

in Oman they Use the Title Sultan for the ruler  his name is  Qaboos and called Sultan Qaboos and the rest of the royal family members are called Emirs

in Qatar and Kuwait the rulers called Emirs and Sheikh  for example the Emir of Kuwait is called Sheikh Sabah Emir of Kuwait

in Jorden and Morroco they Use King for the rulers and Emirs for the other members but in Jorden they call king's wife Queen

Bahrain changed resently to a kingdom  so the ruler is called king and Sheikh so it will be  Sheikh Hamad King of Bahrain

and about the falcon hunting  no never practiced this sport, i dont know why

"unless the encyclopedia book which was right in front of my face at the time is lieing the you would be right. it didnt say what the square miles were in his empire but it did say it was 8,000 miles east to west and 2,000 miles north to south. to find square mileage you would multiply 8,000 by 2,000 and you get 16 million sq miles."

Thats a poor way of calculating, The japanese empire was 5000 miles east to west, and 7000 miles north to south, do you just multiply them?

that map does not show the Ottoman Empire only and that big part in africa was not totally part of the Ottoman,

Didn't the Ottoman use guns?Or no?

How about these guys?

"How about these guys?"

They are already on my list, # 5

1) Mongol empire:  9.3 million sq mile

2) Tang empire: 4.8 million sq mile

3) Tujue empire: 4 million sq mile

4) Umayyad Caliph: 3.5 million sq mile

5) Xiongnu empire: 2.4 million sq mile

6) Roman empire: 2.4 million sq mile

7) Achmenid empire: 2.3 million sq mile

8) Macedonian Empire: 2.2 million sq mile

9) Xianbei empire: 1.9 million sq mile

10) Seljuk Empire: 1.8 million sq mile

How about the Han Empire? I suppose it's a little smaller than the Tang.

Also, the Manchu Empire.

"Manchu was post-gunpowder "

So were Tang, Song, Mongolian, and Ming.

Gunpowder was invented in the Han dynasty.

what about the Abbasids Caliphate? , they were larger than the Macedonian

"what about the Abbasids Caliphate? , they were larger than the Macedonian"

I didn't put in Abassid or Han because they are connected to the Imperial conquest of Ummayad and Tang

The power of the Abbasids was almost as shortlived as that of the Macedonians. Succesive waves of slave revolts, Buyjids, Ghazinivds and Turks all conspired to make the Abbasid Caliphs fill a role rather like that of the modern pappacy. They were a religious authority but the political power had passed from their hands. Even before that most of the lands under the Caliph had a defacto independence. Emirs who had been appointed by the Caliph, their succesion became dynastics and so they ruled themselves, like the Samanid Empire for instance.

The Kushan empire in central Asia was large both in size and in influence.  During their time they were at the center of exchange of culture between the East and West. They were largly responsibe for Buddisms spread to China from India for example. At diffent times in history they fought against the Parthians, Sassanids, Xiong-nu, Bactrians, Indians, Hans, Sacas, Romans and the White Huns (Hephalites).

Does sheer size really matter?

The Mongols were the biggest, even after Ghengis died I think Kublai was considered the Great Khan and the other technically owed him allegience. But I don't think they compare to the Chinese Sung dynasty who built paddle boats, complex water clocks had extensive overseas trade networks and a large population. They might have been smaller but they were better, more learned, more people etc. And they are just one of many including the Romans, Byzantines, great Muslim empires, Incas, Indains, Chinese who BUILT empires. The ability to ride across a piece of land, kill everyone, and take their stuff does not a great empire make.

The Tujue Empire (Göktürk) was the third biggest empire in history. Also the Achemenid Empire of Persian was huge as I know...