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Yugoslav
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Topic: Gjergj Kastrioti (Skenderbey) Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 19:48 |
Originally posted by Arbr Z
@ Akritas
Old pal, this thing of the seal is something you really care about, dont you
We already discussed this months ago.
First
the name George and its variants Yorgos, Gjergj, Georgij, Dorde, Durad, Giorgio, Jorge etc. are used in all the christian lands, by all the christian cultures. It cannot be a greek name.
Kastrioti, its true it looks greek, but as we agreed before, the albanian orthodoxes mostly used greek like names, but in the albanian version. When they wrote their names they used the greek or the latin version
Second
The seal itself seems abusive with its content. Skanderbeg never was neither an emperor, nor a king.
By the first historian who wrote his biography Skanderbeg was referred as Georgivs Castriotvs Epirotarvm Princeps. The historian was Barletius, an albanian from Shkodra. Skanderbeg was referred as epirote, and the region of what is now central albania was referred as Epirus.
Other times he was referred as Macedonian.
But in both cases Macedonian and Epirote were used by the only meaning this terms could have, the regional geographical one.
I believe we agree that there never existed an Epirote ethinicity, while regarding the Macedonian, in the time of Skanderbeg it was only a geographical expression. Epirus was always unhabitated by Albanians and Greeks, and in the ancient times by Illyrians and Greeks.
In Macedonia we had (and still have) this ethnicities and also an important presence of slavic people.
Two thirds of the heroes of the Greek Revolution have their names with clear albanian meanings...this would'nt mean that they were albanian, would this?
Karamanlis, is it turkish or what?
Names are just names, as I mentioned on another discussion in Albania you can find people with turkish surnames, that doesnt mean they are turks, or turkic. You can find people with slavic, greek or latin surnames, this doesnt mean that they are slavs, greeks or latins. It just means that at some point they started using that name because of regional, political or religious issues. |
I could not agree more. Regardless if Scanderbey had a Serbian mother, or if he was of Serb, Greek, Macedonian or even Bulgarian origins; he was and will always be an Albanian national hero and Albanian lord. BTW Kastriotis were Catholics, I believe.
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"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
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Anton
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Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 05:00 |
Originally posted by Yugoslav
BTW Kastriotis were Catholics, I believe.
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Our dear friend tends to call "sirtaki" anything that moves and "tsipouro" anything that can be burned. So, do you thing that kind of kickshaw could stop him?
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britani
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Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 07:35 |
this was skanderbeg"s stamp found in the museum of danimark recently
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britani
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Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 07:51 |
and this is in the museum of lissi/lezha
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britani
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Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 08:14 |
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Arbr Z
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Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 11:24 |
Akritas, I am not saying that any of the Greek heroes could be albanian. They all were Hellenes (some of them arvanites, but that doesnt change anything, as arvanites ar nothing else but hellenes) I am just saying that names dont mean anything.
Now, you posted the seal, which is still disputed for its originallity.
But you forgot to post your points of view, or view-points as you might like to call them.
Do you support the idea that Skanderbeg was Greek, or of greek descent? Is this your standing?
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Prej heshtjes...!
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Yugoslav
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Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 11:59 |
Originally posted by Arbr Z
Akritas, I am not saying that any of the Greek heroes could be albanian. They all were Hellenes (some of them arvanites, but that doesnt change anything, as arvanites ar nothing else but hellenes) I am just saying that names dont mean anything.
Now, you posted the seal, which is still disputed for its originallity.
But you forgot to post your points of view, or view-points as you might like to call them.
Do you support the idea that Skanderbeg was Greek, or of greek descent? Is this your standing? |
I don't anyone COULD claim that...
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"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
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Mortaza
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Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 12:00 |
Than I will also claim iskender as Turk. After all he was courageous(A turkish treat.)
We glorified him with naming our most beafitul food as iskender kebab, and look at seal.
He was king of Turks.
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Yugoslav
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Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 12:05 |
I found this map, representing the Albania under Skanderbeg. How authentic is this? Everyone whom I asked said that it's not correct and it looks odd to myself.
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"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
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akritas
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Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 14:58 |
Originally posted by Arbr Z
Akritas, I am not saying that any of the Greek heroes could be albanian. They all were Hellenes (some of them arvanites, but that doesnt change anything, as arvanites ar nothing else but hellenes) I am just saying that names dont mean anything.
Now, you posted the seal, which is still disputed for its originallity.
But you forgot to post your points of view, or view-points as you might like to call them.
Do you support the idea that Skanderbeg was Greek, or of greek descent? Is this your standing? |
Of course I am not support that Kastriotis was Greek.The evidence of his origin differ and this is the reason that I call him as the last Great Christian Leader (geographically) before Balkan felt under Ottoman rule. Actually was leader of the united Christian forces (Greeks,Albanians and Slavs).
@ Mortaza you got my meaning of my last posts
Edited by akritas - 11-Apr-2007 at 15:00
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Arbr Z
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Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 16:08 |
Originally posted by Yugoslav
I found this map, representing the Albania under Skanderbeg. How authentic is this? Everyone whom I asked said that it's not correct and it looks odd to myself.
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This map is not correct, actually far from correct.
The Skanderbeg state (actually a federation of small principalities) was far smaller. The southernmost borders were in the Berat area, in the west it was the Adriatic, but he never controlled Durrs, Vlora Shkodra and Lezha, which were under Venice. The northernmost border included what is now southrn montenegro, and in the east it had only the western Kosova, and northewstern FYROM.
The map provided by Yugoslav is totally abusive...where did you get that?
@ Akritas
Well if you say that Skanderbeg was a commander of Greeks, Slavs and Albanians you have to prove that too. Which are your sources? Skanderbeg never fought in Greece, or even in what you call Northern-Epirus...
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Prej heshtjes...!
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Yugoslav
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Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 17:35 |
Originally posted by Arbr Z
Originally posted by Yugoslav
I found this map, representing the Albania under Skanderbeg. How
authentic is this? Everyone whom I asked said that it's not correct and
it looks odd to myself.
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This map is not correct, actually far from correct.
The Skanderbeg state (actually a federation of small
principalities) was far smaller. The southernmost borders were in the
Berat area, in the west it was the Adriatic, but he never controlled
Durrs, Vlora Shkodra and Lezha, which were under Venice. The
northernmost border included what is now southrn montenegro, and in the
east it had only the western Kosova, and northewstern FYROM.
The map provided by Yugoslav is totally abusive...where did you get that?
@ Akritas
Well if you say that Skanderbeg was a commander of Greeks, Slavs
and Albanians you have to prove that too. Which are your sources?
Skanderbeg never fought in Greece, or even in what you call
Northern-Epirus... |
Well, one Albanian Wikipedian said that Albanians populated those
regions (Montenegro-Kosovo-Macedonia-Epirus) continually until the
Ottoman defeat (he presented a map of 4 Ottoman Vilayets that are
shaped pretty much similar to the one from the 15th century.
This one:
BTW there having the VERY SAME conversations over at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Skanderbeg and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Skanderbeg/Archive_1
Edited by Yugoslav - 11-Apr-2007 at 17:38
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"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
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akritas
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Posted: 12-Apr-2007 at 04:03 |
Originally posted by Arbr Z
@ Akritas
Well if you say that Skanderbeg was a commander of Greeks, Slavs and Albanians you have to prove that too. Which are your sources? Skanderbeg never fought in Greece, or even in what you call Northern-Epirus... |
I didnt say that Skanderberg fought in Greece, but Greek fought with him. The struggle of Georgios Kastriotis were struggles of an Orthodox Christian leader against the Turks in order to it keeps the Province free. He was Epirote , as irrefutably declares the following Historical Sources, that they constitute monumental documents and show him a strong connection with the Greeks :
The Marini Barletii, his first Biographer from the Skodra (beginnings 16th AD), him calls "Epirote prince" and "Sovereign of Epirus", while entire biography is reported only in Epirotes and never in Albanians.
Also, himself Georgios Kastriotis addressing to the sovereign of Taranta Ioannis Antonio and giving out his origin and his genuine feelings, writes(in greek of course): "my forefathers were Epirotes from which Pyrrhus rose that only the Romans could push back .
Similarly as a descendant of Epirotes and not of the Illyrians he mentions in his letter to the Italian Ursini in 1460.
Still to the King Alfonso, monarch of Aragon, Naples and Sicily he writes(in greek of course): "The shining and mighty king Alfonso, monarch of Aragon, Naples and Sicily Skenderbeis hails and wishes well ".
Speaking in the presence of the Pope Paul B he stresses: "After the subjection of Asia and Greece, after the slaughter of her hegemonic spawns of Constantinople , the Trapezounta ... and the desolation of biggest part of Macedonia and Epirus, against the savage conqueror that seeks to ruin the cross the cross, and elevate on the Capitol the crescent and fulfillment of slavery of all the world ... alone i stand with the relic of my soldiers and with my small territory...".
He had Greek Education and spoke the Greek Language, after by his Letters were sent written in the Greek language.
Moreover the All Turkish biographer of Ali, Ahmet Moyfjt, writes for Georgios Kastriotis: "in the year 1443 he escaped from the Ottoman camp of Morava the Greek sovereign Kastriotis and went to the seat of his ancestors, the Kroia".
Italian, English and Swedish reports consider Georgios Kastriotis a Greek. Thus Italian A. Salvi in the tragedy of (1718) he mentions him as a Greek (Greco Georgios Kastriotis). The English C. Randall in 1810 him calls Greek Hero (Grecian Hero) and the Swedish Barrau initially and Rudbeck later (1835) considers the Georgios Kastriotis a Greek.
The History of French of historical Paganel (Paganel: Histoire de Scanderbey), that was published in Paris in 1855 about him says he is evidently a Greek.
Want also a Albanian admission of Greek Epirote origin of Georgios Kastriotis The Albanian stamp of 1968, supplementing that year 500 years from his death, presents the cover of mentioned before History of Barletii, that is entered in this clearly, that was Epirote prince (Epirotarum Principis) and not Albanian or Illyrian. It writes the cover: "HISTORIA DE VITA ET GESTIS SCANDERBEGI EPIROTARUM PRINCIPIS".
Consequently, equitably Danish Franz Nte Zesse'n, military correspondent of the newspaper "Le Temps of" Paris, doubts for the Albanian origin of Georgios Kastriotis, stressing in his lecture: "Question is, if also this Georgios Kastriotis is able to be considered Albanian, after he was son of Greek of Ioannis Kastriotis and of a Serbian princess ".
Benjamin Disraeli quoted in THE RISE OF ISKANDER several quotes that show his Greek connections........2.3 The despots of Bosnia, Servia, and Bulgaria, and the Grecian princes of Etolia, Macedon, Epirus, Athens, Phocis, Boeotia, and indeed of all the regions to the straits of Corinth, were tributaries to Amurat........4.39 "I am a Grecian Prince, and a compulsory ally of the Moslemin.
Edited by akritas - 12-Apr-2007 at 04:08
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Anton
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Posted: 12-Apr-2007 at 05:20 |
Originally posted by akritas
He was Epirote , as irrefutably declares the following Historical Sources, that they constitute monumental documents and show him a strong connection with the Greeks :
[...]
Benjamin Disraeli quoted in THE RISE OF ISKANDER several quotes that show his Greek connections........2.3 The despots of Bosnia, Servia, and Bulgaria, and the Grecian princes of Etolia, Macedon, Epirus, Athens, Phocis, Boeotia, and indeed of all the regions to the straits of Corinth, were tributaries to Amurat........4.39 "I am a Grecian Prince, and a compulsory ally of the Moslemin.
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Since what time Benjamin Disraeli became "historical source" about the events from 15th century?
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Anton
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Posted: 12-Apr-2007 at 05:25 |
Originally posted by akritas
Italian, English and Swedish reports consider Georgios Kastriotis a Greek. Thus Italian A. Salvi in the tragedy of (1718) he mentions him as a Greek (Greco Georgios Kastriotis). The English C. Randall in 1810 him calls Greek Hero (Grecian Hero) and the Swedish Barrau initially and Rudbeck later (1835) considers the Georgios Kastriotis a Greek.
The History of French of historical Paganel (Paganel: Histoire de Scanderbey), that was published in Paris in 1855 about him says he is evidently a Greek.
Want also a Albanian admission of Greek Epirote origin of Georgios Kastriotis The Albanian stamp of 1968, supplementing that year 500 years from his death, presents the cover of mentioned before History of Barletii, that is entered in this clearly, that was Epirote prince (Epirotarum Principis) and not Albanian or Illyrian. It writes the cover: "HISTORIA DE VITA ET GESTIS SCANDERBEGI EPIROTARUM PRINCIPIS".
Consequently, equitably Danish Franz Nte Zesse'n, military correspondent of the newspaper "Le Temps of" Paris, doubts for the Albanian origin of Georgios Kastriotis, stressing in his lecture: "Question is, if also this Georgios Kastriotis is able to be considered Albanian, after he was son of Greek of Ioannis Kastriotis and of a Serbian princess ".
Benjamin Disraeli quoted in THE RISE OF ISKANDER several quotes that show his Greek connections........2.3 The despots of Bosnia, Servia, and Bulgaria, and the Grecian princes of Etolia, Macedon, Epirus, Athens, Phocis, Boeotia, and indeed of all the regions to the straits of Corinth, were tributaries to Amurat........4.39 "I am a Grecian Prince, and a compulsory ally of the Moslemin.
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These are not historical sources. Some private opinions of people lived many many years before. The pearl with Albanian stamps can be used as the AE quote of the day.
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akritas
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Posted: 12-Apr-2007 at 05:31 |
Anton I dont have any other source like photo or tv reporting or better a 15th birth certification from the despotato of Epirus.
just the historians and biographers of the 18th and 19th centuries!!
Edited by akritas - 12-Apr-2007 at 05:33
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Anton
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Posted: 12-Apr-2007 at 05:32 |
Originally posted by akritas
I didnt say that Skanderberg fought in Greece, but Greek fought with him. The struggle of Georgios Kastriotis were struggles of an Orthodox Christian leader against the Turks in order to it keeps the Province free. He was Epirote , as irrefutably declares the following Historical Sources, that they constitute monumental documents and show him a strong connection with the Greeks :
The Marini Barletii, his first Biographer from the Skodra (beginnings 16th AD), him calls "Epirote prince" and "Sovereign of Epirus", while entire biography is reported only in Epirotes and never in Albanians.
Also, himself Georgios Kastriotis addressing to the sovereign of Taranta Ioannis Antonio and giving out his origin and his genuine feelings, writes(in greek of course): "my forefathers were Epirotes from which Pyrrhus rose that only the Romans could push back .
Similarly as a descendant of Epirotes and not of the Illyrians he mentions in his letter to the Italian Ursini in 1460.
Still to the King Alfonso, monarch of Aragon, Naples and Sicily he writes(in greek of course): "The shining and mighty king Alfonso, monarch of Aragon, Naples and Sicily Skenderbeis hails and wishes well ".
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This lead to the discussion who were Epirotans -- Greek or Illyrians. As far as I understood from long AE discussions the greekness of Epirotans is as much doubtfull as greekness of Macedonians.
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Anton
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Posted: 12-Apr-2007 at 05:34 |
Akritas, sources ideally should be written by people who personally know him. All later documents are just interpretations.
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britani
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Posted: 12-Apr-2007 at 08:05 |
The Marini Barletii, his first Biographer from the Skodra (beginnings 16th AD), him calls "Epirote prince" and "Sovereign of Epirus", while entire biography is reported only in Epirotes and never in Albanians.
Similarly as a descendant of Epirotes and not of the Illyrians he mentions in his letter to the Italian Ursini in 1460.
whats going on with you men???...you say he was an "epirotan prince" and not a illyrian/albanian one.All these sound me rediciolous.
But you have to know that epirus was more a geografical term and in that time it was populated by albans/epirotans/illyrians/shqiptare/(call them how you want couse they were all one blood).
The illyrian term wasnt in use so much that time(1460) couse it was so old for that period and Skanderbeg couldnt call himself like illyrian even if he was an (antic) illyrian one but like epirotan couse this nick (epirotans) was dedicted to albanians that time.
Skanderbeg called himself like the descendor of Phyrro of Epir and Alexander the great couse he knew the history better of us and even this he choised for symbols what these two great men had taken before(this isnt a coincidens)
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britani
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Posted: 12-Apr-2007 at 08:18 |
originally posted by akritas
The Marini Barletii, his first Biographer from the Skodra (beginnings 16th AD), him calls "Epirote prince" and "Sovereign of Epirus", while entire biography is reported only in Epirotes and never in Albanians.
as for albanian languge it couldnt be written in that time(couse we had more important things to do like to protect our nation from occupators) and the better way to writte in that time was with an other wellknown language like greece or italic one. The world couldnt know the history with an unwritten languge....thats why his history have been written in foreign.
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