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"Beating" up on Israel?

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Topic: "Beating" up on Israel?
Posted By: Kevin
Subject: "Beating" up on Israel?
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 03:39
I was wondering if anyone else has noticed the trend in many Western societies where it seems "cool" to gang on Israel in terms of political and intellectual discussion and discourse, I've noticed more recently in the United States also. This trend seems to be popular especially, among young people such as around my age, and among people who are left-leaning in their politics. Among the young I've noticed that in many of the Facebook statuses of the past couple of days after the Israeli strikes in Gaza, that many of them had in their statuses such things like " Omg Israel is killing hundreds of innocent Palestinians over some rockets being fired". Or "Would you kill your neighbor for throwing stones at you", "Long live Hamas" or "Long live Palestine" just to give examples. It seems that most young people just like in their support of many other progressive or left-wing causes, have no idea what they are talking about, and in this case have no idea how complicated the politics of the Middle East are, especially the Israeli-Arab/Palestinian conflict in my opinion. Among those with with left-wing politics it seems that the epicenter of modern day anti-semitism has shifted from the far-right to the far-left.

Keep in mind, I'm just merely posting what I've seen in society on this issue more recently.                    



Replies:
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 04:00
Its good to hear that young americans are starting to have a moral conscious. Hopefully one day your country will stop giving bombs to them to slaughter innocents.

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Posted By: Penelope
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 04:33

I find it kind of intriguing that Hamas would claim that many civilians have been killed, when they themselves have been firing 100 rockets a day into Isreal killing civilians as well.



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The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations.


Posted By: Kevin
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 04:36
Originally posted by Penelope

I find it kind of intriguing that Hamas would claim that many civilians have been killed, when they themselves have been firing 100 rockets a day into Isreal killing civilians as well.



Exactly!

One of the facts of this conflict that I feel are being ignored. 


Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 05:11
Yep, poor Israeli civilians. Both of them. Well one, the other was an Arab.

Hamas rockets have killed only 2 people as of day before yesterday.

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Posted By: Sun Tzu
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 05:47
Yea but your forgetting that they were firing rockets first, and that's an act of war Israel's only choice is too defend yourself.

"Would you kill your neighbor for throwing stones at you"

seriously who the hell said that, that's about the dumbest statement I've heard.

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Sun Tzu

All warfare is based on deception - Sun Tzu


Posted By: Kevin
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 05:56
Originally posted by Sun Tzu

Yea but your forgetting that they were firing rockets first, and that's an act of war Israel's only choice is too defend yourself.

"Would you kill your neighbor for throwing stones at you"

seriously who the hell said that, that's about the dumbest statement I've heard.


Yeah, especially since these types of stones can kill you. 


Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 06:17

Originally posted by Sun Tzu

Yea but your forgetting that they were firing rockets first, and that's an act of war Israel's only choice is too defend yourself.

Well blockades are often taken as an act of war too ... Israel itself declared war when it was blockaded by the closure of the Suez, and promptly mobilized its forces and launched an assault on Egypt, beginning the Suez Crisis. Ironically, this is how Israel acquired the Gaza Strip in the first place - by firing shots over a blockade.

Similarly, in this situation, rockets were fired after Israel refused a ceasefire deal from Hamas that would have lifted the blockade on the Gaza Strip, which is threatening economic collapse and perhaps even famine.



Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 06:31
Hello to you all
 
For the millionth and one times, Israel broke the June ceasefire over 100 times. It killed during the "ceasefire" some 50 innocent Palestinians. The world said nothing, the US said nothing, the "intellectuals" said nothing. People on either side of the politics said nothing. But when Hamas implemented every condition of the ceasefire including a real war against Islamic Jihad and Fatah member who fired a few rockets in response to Israeli violations that world condemned them. When they complained about Israeli behaviour the world condemned them, even now the world condemn them and makes them responsile for what is hapenning these recent days despite the fact that it was Israel which ended the truce, it was Israel that refused 6 Palestinian offeres to this day to stop firing rockets just as the Americans wanted.
 
Here are some links to news you never heard about and please read everyone:
 
The agreement of last June:
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7460504.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7460504.stm
 
Here is a UN report about Israeli violations, note here Hamas itself didn't violate the truce, it captured those responsible and punished them:
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7478293.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7478293.stm
Hamas arrests people responsible for violating the ceasefire:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7501025.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7501025.stm
 
Here is another about Israeli attacks on Gaza in November despite admittance of it being followed by the Palestinians:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7732956.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7732956.stm
 
And Barak admitts the cease fire is working:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7553424.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7553424.stm
 
Another UN report on the frequent violation of the ceasefirce, here the continuation of the blockade it signed a deal to lift it:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7502409.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7502409.stm
 
This is just part of what was reported and people conveniently forgot during the past 6 months. So who is at fault again?
 
Al-Jassas


Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 09:41
Originally posted by Kevin

Originally posted by Sun Tzu

Yea but your forgetting that they were firing rockets first, and that's an act of war Israel's only choice is too defend yourself.

"Would you kill your neighbor for throwing stones at you"

seriously who the hell said that, that's about the dumbest statement I've heard.


Yeah, especially since these types of stones can kill you. 

Poor Israel... how can they cope?

(Image originally posted by Armenian Survival a couple of years ago I think)


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Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 10:24


The photo posted by Omar is obviously a propagandistically-aimed act, those children don't hope to stop the tanks but to impress the public watching the photographs.


Unfortunately these lies have effect, as the other make ups of Pallywood (fake deaths, injuries, electricity cut offs staged in videos or photoshoped).

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http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/3992/10ms4.jpg">



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 12:19
Indeed it is quite accurate to say that the international community is 'beating up' on Israel. Tempting as it is to liken this to the international community 'beating up' on Nazi Germany, I will do so in only this round-about and cruelly ironic way.

The general point being that the international community is 'beating up' on Israel because of their repeated human rights infringements, militant and fascist policies and extreme nationalism and perceived moral superiority. When you add to this a situation of occupation of a poor country by a wealthy and well-armed nation which hesitates not once in using military force against civilians, as well as race and religious divisions... well it's basically quite obvious why they're getting 'beat up'.

There are indeed some valid points when the more uneducated youths shout anti-Israel slogans simply because they're backed by America, referenced in the same sentence as George Bush or they heard someone else say it. However this is simply intellectual cannon fodder attached to a more significant issue.

Myself, I shall cease to be anti-Israel when it adopts more moderate and productive policies that act to end the violence. By which I mean my view is unlikely to change in the near future and I would not complain too loudly if the international community took a more literal approach to 'beating up' on Israel.


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Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 14:07

Wow Meu, when did you get Israeli citizenship?

Here are some links that a Jewish Israeli oganization wrote about the "fake deaths" of 4 month old terrorists and other matters:

http://www.btselem.org/Download/200705_Gaza_Insert_eng.pdf - http://www.btselem.org/Download/200705_Gaza_Insert_eng.pdf
 
Myspace videos since a picture is worth a thousand words:
http://www.myspace.com/btselem - http://www.myspace.com/btselem
 
and the website:
http://www.btselem.org/ - http://www.btselem.org/
 
Al-Jassas


Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 14:58
I don't deny everything, only what is fake in international media manipulated by Palestinians.


But we are offtopic, those who don't know about the subject can find by googling Pallywood (on Youtube too are many videos about this).

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http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/3992/10ms4.jpg">



Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 00:07
Germans usually have a problem with these thematics because of our history. So ChanceloretteTongue Merkel said it was just alone the fault of Hamas. I agree with her that Hamas are terrorist, brutal, ideological, rediculous murderer. But you need allways two for a battle. I am sure many Israeli and Palestinians want peace but the are following the wrong people in both countries.
Beating up on Israel? We had this in Germany during the Bush II Iraq war. Sadam was a murderer but he was not responsible for 9/11. When we were against the war, when we said something against Guantanamo, we were anti-american. And if people now say something against Israel they are anti-israelic. NO! It is hard to fight against terrorists, but to use their methods isn't the right way. Israel does nothing honest to make peace with its palestinian neighbour. One new settlement after the other. Israel and Palestine need a coalition of the decents and respectables and not of all these hawks.


Posted By: Sun Tzu
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 01:08
how can they cope?(Image originally posted by Armenian Survival a couple of years ago I think)[/QUOTE]

Omar... I really don't want this to be a heated argument frankly I really have no clue what they should with Israel or the city we have been like kids for a thousand years. What Hamas did was an act of war and I could care less if your country's GDP or military was weak or strong. If you were to fire missiles into my country I would attack you with full force and with everything I got until you were utterly defeated which I hope will happen to Hamas. Hamas should have been destroyed years ago, removing Hamas would be one less pulsating cyst that our world has to deal with.

whew sorry for the brashness and the crude words, but this situation over there really gets on my nerves.

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Sun Tzu

All warfare is based on deception - Sun Tzu


Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 03:37
Originally posted by Menumorut



The photo posted by Omar is obviously a propagandistically-aimed act, those children don't hope to stop the tanks but to impress the public watching the photographs.


Unfortunately these lies have effect, as the other make ups of Pallywood (fake deaths, injuries, electricity cut offs staged in videos or photoshoped).


Do you have evidence that this image was photoshoped? Besides, back before photoshop was common, I grew up watching Palestinian on TV throwing rocks at tanks.

It seems to me that when we want to defend Israel about Palestine or the U.S. about Iraq, we just don't want to see any images.

After all, it is a lot easier to dehumanize people when you don't see them.

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Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 04:05
It is very sorry that what I am about to say is pretty much the same thing that I said about 4 years ago in this forum.

The Palestinian-Isreali conflict is a terrible tragedy where violence begets more violence. Each attack from each side can be justified as retaliation from a former attack from the other side.

If the parties were equal, either Palestine or Israel could decide to be the bigger man and stop what is a warring feud.

However, the parties are not equal. Israel is the stronger party, and it would be in the best interest of Israel to stop the bloodbath. Also. considering one of the justifications for why Israel must exist is to have a safe haven for Jewish people in case of persecution, which I fully support, Israel has a moral obligation to avoid committing human rights violations, i.e. killing Palestinians.

Palestine is fully justified to retaliate violently against aggression. Unlike most people in the West, they actually get to see the death and bury them. And Hamas, as long as it retaliates, will enjoy enough support to stay in power because they are actually doing something about the deaths. This is a political reality.

My opinion is that Palestine would do better by avoiding violent retaliation from a strategic point of view. Quite simply, Israel can beat them. Israel has a lot more death power than Palestine. They may be rockets what they are shooting, but in military terms, they are rocks thrown to a tank.


So why are young people siding with Palestine? Because many young people today in the U.S. grew up learning about the horrible deaths and persecution of Jews in Germany in the 30s. They also grew up learning about legal segregation in the U.S. and apartheid. And they recently learned a lot about human right violations in Darfur. It doesn't take a lot of moral imagination to see the similarities between these and how the Israeli government treats Palestinians.


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Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 06:40
Originally posted by hugoestr

Do you have evidence that this image was photoshoped? Besides, back before photoshop was common, I grew up watching Palestinian on TV throwing rocks at tanks.

It seems to me that when we want to defend Israel about Palestine or the U.S. about Iraq, we just don't want to see any images.

After all, it is a lot easier to dehumanize people when you don't see them.


I didn't said that image was photoshoped, read again my post (I said it was not a spontanous but premeditated act to hit the tank with stones). I said about other images that have been presented by news agencies as showing hurted, killed Palestinians, as well as staged video reports.

To prove this, see just http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2008/12/27/wapo-steps-in-pallywood-doodoo-something-smells/ - this article about staged photos of fake victims in the present conflict.

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http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/3992/10ms4.jpg">



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 06:53
Regarding the 'staging' of photographs that you claim is occurring Menumorut, I pose the following question: Are you proposing that young children are, on their own accord, posing in front of moving military vehicles pelting them with rocks in order to draw media attention to the political oppression of the Palestinian people? This seems unlikely.

It is indeed possible that photographers are coaxing youngsters to repeat the behaviour in order to get that shot, but this is most likely a pre-established behaviour rather than a unique creation of the photographer's imagination.

Regarding the primary topic of conversation I wish to ask Kevin what exactly he is asking in the original post. Are you curious about the uneducated criticism that seems popular or the phenomenon of targeting Israel for criticism in general? Do you think that it is unjust, or simply interesting?


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Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 07:30

Hello Sun tzu

Read the links above. Israel began the war, before the rockets, and Israel began the violations. Before blaming Hamas rockets blame the people who fired the first shots, these were the Israelis like it or not.

 
Al-Jassas


Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 13:25
I don't see this as a trend or so. I think the problem was that Israel ofcourse was connected to Jewish people. Because of the holocaust, it was like a shame to critisize the situation in Palestine. At least, that is what i got from some people. Also, many immediately may call you anti-semitic which is idiotic since many people in the middle east are semitic.

What people don't get though is that when you critisize Israel, you don't critisize the Jewish society, nor the Jewish culture. You judge a country related to Jewish people, but all jewish people don't live in Israel nor agree with its tactics.

I have personally met a Romaniote jew once who had almost fanatical anti-israel views.

In any case, this is not a trend. It's just easier nowadays for people in some western countries to critisize. The tolerance is not high towards israel as it was before.


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Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!


Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 15:58
I think its a trend amongst 17-21 year olds who think they know a thing or two. Especially popular amongst those people who see 'movements' in everything. Personally, I have a real ugly disdain for politics in general, and for partisans who see the work of the 'other side' in everything. War is hell, and it is politics and the left/right divisions which perpetuate it.

Everything in this world revolves around who holds the moral high ground. Soon, the self-righteous ramblings of a supposedly 'correct' radical becomes the word of God and any who disagrees with him is a moron, a racist, an imperialist, an inferior mind.

Its an ugly circle but won't change anytime soon. Its humanity itself.


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Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 16:07
Originally posted by Parnell

I think its a trend amongst 17-21 year olds who think they know a thing or two. Especially popular amongst those people who see 'movements' in everything. Personally, I have a real ugly disdain for politics in general, and for partisans who see the work of the 'other side' in everything. War is hell, and it is politics and the left/right divisions which perpetuate it.

Everything in this world revolves around who holds the moral high ground. Soon, the self-righteous ramblings of a supposedly 'correct' radical becomes the word of God and any who disagrees with him is a moron, a racist, an imperialist, an inferior mind.

Its an ugly circle but won't change anytime soon. Its humanity itself.
 
Aye, which is why I would have given up trying to explain the situation as a bad job a long time ago. I admire your clear thinking and your fortitude, and I wish you the best. That said, I probably won't be joining you. I always get depressed when I watch people who could do so much more flush their minds down the toilet with self-righteousness and hyperbolic nonsense. I do wish you luck, for you must find it frustrating, and few of those who most need to hear what you have to say will be willing to pull themselves away from their childish disingenuousness long enough to listen.
 
-Akolouthos


Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 17:17
Parnell is right. You don't have to believe what he says and not have a opinion on the matter. But if you run his train of thought, you may not be as biased to the point as having a Stars Wars mentality where there's one grand scheme to wipe out everything good another that is pure good and a under dog.
 
It's aggrevating getting into discussions with people that just keep going in circles and believe in things that only account for one idea even if the motives don't exactly help the interests of that party.
 
Let me just say, I may be the above case also, not saying I'm always in the right or even at all. But it's something I feel. I don't like Israel, but I could see alot strategic ideas on why the conflict could be played out, why other nations have motives in the area rather then something like a grand "Zionist Conspiracy".


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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 17:24
Originally posted by Parnell

I think its a trend amongst 17-21 year olds who think they know a thing or two. Especially popular amongst those people who see 'movements' in everything. Personally, I have a real ugly disdain for politics in general, and for partisans who see the work of the 'other side' in everything. War is hell, and it is politics and the left/right divisions which perpetuate it.

Everything in this world revolves around who holds the moral high ground. Soon, the self-righteous ramblings of a supposedly 'correct' radical becomes the word of God and any who disagrees with him is a moron, a racist, an imperialist, an inferior mind.

Its an ugly circle but won't change anytime soon. Its humanity itself.


Actually it is not a trend at all, because intellectuals and non-activists alike agree on the issue. Yes it may be a rebellious trend to some, but that is a minuscule minority.

Some of your observations are right, but that is overall too cynical as at the end of the day these criticisms of Israel as a government are correct and documented for over fifty years. Thus no matter the "larger picture" in the world context of things when considered at its local level there are grave injustices that are ongoing and that are the cause and root of the conflict - thus perpetuating them of course begets negative effects from the other side, and in the context of this thread begets this "bashing of Israel, the government" due to the actions that they choose not to cease. I think there has been enough material posted to deduce that just in the two threads on this topic.




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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 17:26
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

Parnell is right. You don't have to believe what he says and not have a opinion on the matter. But if you run his train of thought, you may not be as biased to the point as having a Stars Wars mentality where there's one grand scheme to wipe out everything good another that is pure good and a under dog.
 
It's aggrevating getting into discussions with people that just keep going in circles and believe in things that only account for one idea even if the motives don't exactly help the interests of that party.
 
Let me just say, I may be the above case also, not saying I'm always in the right or even at all. But it's something I feel. I don't like Israel, but I could see alot strategic ideas on why the conflict could be played out, why other nations have motives in the area rather then something like a grand "Zionist Conspiracy".


Actually dis-attaching yourself in that manner and becoming too cynical has helped the non action of millions with the murder of over 6 million people. Thus these over simplifications do do damage. At least disagreeing and trying to show wrong in something creates debate.




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Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 17:58
Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by Parnell

I think its a trend amongst 17-21 year olds who think they know a thing or two. Especially popular amongst those people who see 'movements' in everything. Personally, I have a real ugly disdain for politics in general, and for partisans who see the work of the 'other side' in everything. War is hell, and it is politics and the left/right divisions which perpetuate it.

Everything in this world revolves around who holds the moral high ground. Soon, the self-righteous ramblings of a supposedly 'correct' radical becomes the word of God and any who disagrees with him is a moron, a racist, an imperialist, an inferior mind.

Its an ugly circle but won't change anytime soon. Its humanity itself.


Actually it is not a trend at all, because intellectuals and non-activists alike agree on the issue. Yes it may be a rebellious trend to some, but that is a minuscule minority.

Some of your observations are right, but that is overall too cynical as at the end of the day these criticisms of Israel as a government are correct and documented for over fifty years. Thus no matter the "larger picture" in the world context of things when considered at its local level there are grave injustices that are ongoing and that are the cause and root of the conflict - thus perpetuating them of course begets negative effects from the other side, and in the context of this thread begets this "bashing of Israel, the government" due to the actions that they choose not to cease. I think there has been enough material posted to deduce that just in the two threads on this topic.


But when you only "bash" one side and never the other, it becomes a political ideology.  Political ideologies come in the form of trends.  It is the current trend to "bash" Israel.  Look, you can criticize Israel all you want; but you should also be able to criticize the other side.  When a person does this it gives their criticisms credibility because they are being objective and showing that they are thinking with a clear mind and really taking in the situation.  If you can't criticize the other side then, I would say, you don't fully understand the situation.  To see a situation like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as black and white is an oversimplification of the situation.  By the way all the coverage I have seen on US Media places Palestinian stories first and Israeli stories second.  An example of this would be CNN, on this channel one gets reporting like 400+ PALESTINAINS DEAD... ...Palestinians are still launching missiles.  This is hardly coverage skewed towards Israel, the first thing is always Palestinians being invaded and killed followed by a small parenthetical aside about Israel still being attacked.  I would say coverage in this manner shows the trend about which Parnell has spoken.


Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 19:55
Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

Parnell is right. You don't have to believe what he says and not have a opinion on the matter. But if you run his train of thought, you may not be as biased to the point as having a Stars Wars mentality where there's one grand scheme to wipe out everything good another that is pure good and a under dog.
 
It's aggrevating getting into discussions with people that just keep going in circles and believe in things that only account for one idea even if the motives don't exactly help the interests of that party.
 
Let me just say, I may be the above case also, not saying I'm always in the right or even at all. But it's something I feel. I don't like Israel, but I could see alot strategic ideas on why the conflict could be played out, why other nations have motives in the area rather then something like a grand "Zionist Conspiracy".
 
Actually dis-attaching yourself in that manner and becoming too cynical has helped the non action of millions with the murder of over 6 million people. Thus these over simplifications do do damage. At least disagreeing and trying to show wrong in something creates debate.


 
I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone was advocating the type of apathy that has allowed this situation to get worse over the past several decades. In fact I think this apathy is a natural result of the angry propaganda that often permeates the discussion. If I get accused of being a militant supporter or sympathizer of Israel every time I try to argue for making a more objective analysis of the situation, of course it turns me off to the debate, precisely because I recognize that nothing substantive can be accomplished or resolved in such a dynamic. I think we can all agree that the overwhelming majority of the discussion of the conflict on this forum has not been productive.
 
-Akolouthos


Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 20:25

 

Oh come on King John, what is there to report from the other side? The rockets that fall on empty desert? or the poor Israelis terrified by fire crackers?

From sunday until now Israel killed nothing but civilians and a couple of Hamas leaders. some 200 women and Children this is what Israel killed since Sunday according to most reports and almost all of them fell in places out of range of any Hamas training camps, security installations and rocket firing ranges. Israel deliberatly attacked and distroyed 11 mosques some during prayer time to maximze the death toll. It also distroyed several schools, damaged a hospital and distroyed the two university campuses in Gaza. Yesterday Livni in Europe refused to allow humanitaria assistence to go to Gaza or to stop attacking despite Hamas's pledge to stop firing rockets. All these are war crimes by every meaning of international law a thing non of the the media you accuse of bashing Israel mention this.

Now the world sees two pictures, from Gaza, continuous flood of civilian blood by Israeli war machine, war crimes by the minute and total distruction of every civilian infrastructure there is. From Israel, firecrackers that fall on empty desert and only kill once in a blue moon when they directly hit a guy out there standing.
 
Now do you really think both pictures are equal?
 
Al-Jassas 


Posted By: Sun Tzu
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 20:29
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Hello Sun tzu


Read the links above. Israel began the war, before the rockets, and Israel began the violations. Before blaming Hamas rockets blame the people who fired the first shots, these were the Israelis like it or not.


 

Al-Jassas


Tell me Al Jassas where are the links? and where did you get the information. Even so Hamas is considered a terrorist organization and they need to be dismantled along with other terrosit organizations. Personally I really am not a big fan of Jews myself with the whole Hollywood conspiracy, but I beleive they have every right to exist as a state regardless of the Holocaust. Now with the Palestinians I wish they could have their own state and get along with Israel, but as for Hamas they need to be annihalated.

I just wanted to get through that I am not a sympathizer for Israel I just beleive Hamas should be removed.

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Sun Tzu

All warfare is based on deception - Sun Tzu


Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 20:53
What is there to report from the other side?  Well what about how effective these attacks are.  How about reporting how Hamas allows its citizens to bombard Israel with rockets (an act of war) targeting civilians (a violation of international war)? 

By the way I think you missed the point I was making.  You clearly aren't capable of critically looking at the situation.  Did the Palestinians do anything wrong before Israel started this most recent round of air attacks?


Posted By: Sun Tzu
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 21:10
Yea Al-Jassas you seem very one sided I might be wrong but that is what you are coming off as.

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Sun Tzu

All warfare is based on deception - Sun Tzu


Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 21:14
Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by Parnell

I think its a trend amongst 17-21 year olds who think they know a thing or two. Especially popular amongst those people who see 'movements' in everything. Personally, I have a real ugly disdain for politics in general, and for partisans who see the work of the 'other side' in everything. War is hell, and it is politics and the left/right divisions which perpetuate it.

Everything in this world revolves around who holds the moral high ground. Soon, the self-righteous ramblings of a supposedly 'correct' radical becomes the word of God and any who disagrees with him is a moron, a racist, an imperialist, an inferior mind.

Its an ugly circle but won't change anytime soon. Its humanity itself.


Actually it is not a trend at all, because intellectuals and non-activists alike agree on the issue. Yes it may be a rebellious trend to some, but that is a minuscule minority.

Some of your observations are right, but that is overall too cynical as at the end of the day these criticisms of Israel as a government are correct and documented for over fifty years. Thus no matter the "larger picture" in the world context of things when considered at its local level there are grave injustices that are ongoing and that are the cause and root of the conflict - thus perpetuating them of course begets negative effects from the other side, and in the context of this thread begets this "bashing of Israel, the government" due to the actions that they choose not to cease. I think there has been enough material posted to deduce that just in the two threads on this topic.




What personally annoys me is that I am by nature anti-zionist. Few people with a rational mind can justify a 'greater Israel' situation based on biblical teachings. Settlements, colonists, barriers, walls, military checkpoints - do you really think I agree with all of that? I am very much in Palestine's corner.

However, what I'm disagreeing with is the partisan nature of the support people give to the likes of Hamas. Hamas are a product of the medieval world, not of the modern one. I can't even recall the amount of times I've heard unyielding support for Hamas and their military philosophy. I don't care what the circumstances are but bombing a pizza shop were civilians are is plain wrong. As is an Israeli tank blowing up a Mosque. I'm not disputing that.

I see many parallels in the mentalities of people when compared to the IRA in Northern Ireland. Foreigners, particularly Americans of Irish descent have always viewed the IRA with a naieve romanticist view of a brave and courageous group of 'lads' fighting the Sassanach (The British). I see these same naieve and dangerous notions from people my own age in university. It seems like people have stopped trying to understand both sides of a conflict, studying the history or understanding the context but rather see EVERYTHING in the context of good vs. evil, right vs. wrong. The gray areas are ignored and the conflict becomes submerged in sea of naieve and incorrect romanticism which ignores the true and elusive natures of the conflict.


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Posted By: Sun Tzu
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 21:22
It's just like Osama bin Laden whom if you ask what people think of him over here he would be called a mass-murderer. While over in the Middle-East some call him freedom fighter and and a paragon, to me they should regard him as a blight to society and Islam. Instead he is supported by people who parade themselves as true Muslims while they go and blow themselves up and kill people. I am not saying that Americans are saints but I have never seen U.S. citizen blow themselves up in an exreme act of cowardice in order to kill many.

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Sun Tzu

All warfare is based on deception - Sun Tzu


Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 22:03
Thats a little silly. The suicide bomb has long since become a military tactic. In fairness, in the world of modern warfare when ak47s are being wielded against tanks, the suicide bomb is a highly potent weapon. Not justifying it or anything but its a little more complicated than regarding it as some simple act of cowardice.

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Posted By: Sun Tzu
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 22:21
I'm not saying that suicide bombs are not ineffective I just beleive the use of them to innocent people is sick and should be looked down upon by any right minded person. Right??? what I meant by cowardice I meant by them attacking people who can'y defend themselves like civilians. I guess this is the world we live in were the old rules in warfare don't apply.

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Sun Tzu

All warfare is based on deception - Sun Tzu


Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 23:17
...moved to the Minefield

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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 00:37
Originally posted by Sun Tzu

Yea Al-Jassas you seem very one sided I might be wrong but that is what you are coming off as.

So do you.

Personally I think that taking the middle ground in a conflict where the middle is far to one side is morally reprehensible. Criticise what deserves criticism, but it one side deserves far more criticism than the other then don't be afraid to give it to them.


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Posted By: Sun Tzu
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 01:46
Ok I really don't have time to argue any more on this argument Hamas is a terroist organization so they need to be wiped out. I am siding with Israel because Hamas is a Terrorist organziation. Now with Palestinians I beleive they have every right to have their own state alongside Israel. Hamas is a blight on Islamic society and like Al-Quada gives Islam a bad rep to many Americans and other people worldwide. So I couldn't care who was at war with Hamas as long as Hamas is utterly destroyed.

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Sun Tzu

All warfare is based on deception - Sun Tzu


Posted By: Kevin
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 02:04
Originally posted by Zaitsev

Regarding the 'staging' of photographs that you claim is occurring Menumorut, I pose the following question: Are you proposing that young children are, on their own accord, posing in front of moving military vehicles pelting them with rocks in order to draw media attention to the political oppression of the Palestinian people? This seems unlikely.

It is indeed possible that photographers are coaxing youngsters to repeat the behaviour in order to get that shot, but this is most likely a pre-established behaviour rather than a unique creation of the photographer's imagination.

Regarding the primary topic of conversation I wish to ask Kevin what exactly he is asking in the original post. Are you curious about the uneducated criticism that seems popular or the phenomenon of targeting Israel for criticism in general? Do you think that it is unjust, or simply interesting?


To answer your question Zaitsev, all mix of all the above. 


Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 02:53
Originally posted by Sun Tzu

Ok I really don't have time to argue any more on this argument Hamas is a terroist organization so they need to be wiped out. I am siding with Israel because Hamas is a Terrorist organziation. Now with Palestinians I beleive they have every right to have their own state alongside Israel. Hamas is a blight on Islamic society and like Al-Quada gives Islam a bad rep to many Americans and other people worldwide. So I couldn't care who was at war with Hamas as long as Hamas is utterly destroyed.


Gah... As I've said before, lets bring on the apocolypse and get it over and done with.

What will the extermination of Hamas really mean? Surely some other, likely more radical group will simply take its place? Or perhaps we should just exterminate the entire Palestinian population so as these 'pernicious' organisations can't ever take hold?

You can't fight ideas out of the barrel of a gun. All your way of thinking will do is bring along a Nuclear holocaust some way down the road.

Something important that gets lost in all of this is that Hamas, no matter how unsavoury an organisation, is the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people and it is from them that they derive their authority and more importantly their legitimacy. If people aren't prepared to recognise this simple fundamental in a debate we might as well commit mass suicide now and give up on humanity altogether.


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 06:51
Originally posted by King John

Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by Parnell

I think its a trend amongst 17-21 year olds who think they know a thing or two. Especially popular amongst those people who see 'movements' in everything. Personally, I have a real ugly disdain for politics in general, and for partisans who see the work of the 'other side' in everything. War is hell, and it is politics and the left/right divisions which perpetuate it.

Everything in this world revolves around who holds the moral high ground. Soon, the self-righteous ramblings of a supposedly 'correct' radical becomes the word of God and any who disagrees with him is a moron, a racist, an imperialist, an inferior mind.

Its an ugly circle but won't change anytime soon. Its humanity itself.


Actually it is not a trend at all, because intellectuals and non-activists alike agree on the issue. Yes it may be a rebellious trend to some, but that is a minuscule minority.

Some of your observations are right, but that is overall too cynical as at the end of the day these criticisms of Israel as a government are correct and documented for over fifty years. Thus no matter the "larger picture" in the world context of things when considered at its local level there are grave injustices that are ongoing and that are the cause and root of the conflict - thus perpetuating them of course begets negative effects from the other side, and in the context of this thread begets this "bashing of Israel, the government" due to the actions that they choose not to cease. I think there has been enough material posted to deduce that just in the two threads on this topic.


But when you only "bash" one side and never the other, it becomes a political ideology.  Political ideologies come in the form of trends.  It is the current trend to "bash" Israel.  Look, you can criticize Israel all you want; but you should also be able to criticize the other side.  When a person does this it gives their criticisms credibility because they are being objective and showing that they are thinking with a clear mind and really taking in the situation.  If you can't criticize the other side then, I would say, you don't fully understand the situation.  To see a situation like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as black and white is an oversimplification of the situation.  By the way all the coverage I have seen on US Media places Palestinian stories first and Israeli stories second.  An example of this would be CNN, on this channel one gets reporting like 400+ PALESTINAINS DEAD... ...Palestinians are still launching missiles.  This is hardly coverage skewed towards Israel, the first thing is always Palestinians being invaded and killed followed by a small parenthetical aside about Israel still being attacked.  I would say coverage in this manner shows the trend about which Parnell has spoken.


When the Palestinians come and steal Israeli land and keep them in tents for 60 years then they will be on an even footing for even handed critiquing. Until then obviously you can as Omar well put, critique what is wrong, and unfortunately the Israeli sides actions outweigh the Palestinian ones at the moment.


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 06:55
Originally posted by Akolouthos

Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

Parnell is right. You don't have to believe what he says and not have a opinion on the matter. But if you run his train of thought, you may not be as biased to the point as having a Stars Wars mentality where there's one grand scheme to wipe out everything good another that is pure good and a under dog.
 
It's aggrevating getting into discussions with people that just keep going in circles and believe in things that only account for one idea even if the motives don't exactly help the interests of that party.
 
Let me just say, I may be the above case also, not saying I'm always in the right or even at all. But it's something I feel. I don't like Israel, but I could see alot strategic ideas on why the conflict could be played out, why other nations have motives in the area rather then something like a grand "Zionist Conspiracy".
 
Actually dis-attaching yourself in that manner and becoming too cynical has helped the non action of millions with the murder of over 6 million people. Thus these over simplifications do do damage. At least disagreeing and trying to show wrong in something creates debate.


 
I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone was advocating the type of apathy that has allowed this situation to get worse over the past several decades. In fact I think this apathy is a natural result of the angry propaganda that often permeates the discussion. If I get accused of being a militant supporter or sympathizer of Israel every time I try to argue for making a more objective analysis of the situation, of course it turns me off to the debate, precisely because I recognize that nothing substantive can be accomplished or resolved in such a dynamic. I think we can all agree that the overwhelming majority of the discussion of the conflict on this forum has not been productive.
 
-Akolouthos

I am speaking in generalities here seeing a few commonalities arise form this step back approach to these scenarios... the same thing got millions killed in Africa, taking out the morality issues out of it and just cynically viewing it as the " world still hasn't changed." Well that may be so, but that doesn't mean that we should not complain and do everything we can to change the reality that is very much like hell for those people into something more worthy of a human being. Darfur, Palestine, etc... Bosnia experienced thousands of deaths and massacres before Clinton decided to act, and even by then it was late for much of the populace... sometimes stepping back does more harm than good is all I am saying.




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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 07:17
Originally posted by King John

But when you only "bash" one side and never the other, it becomes a political ideology.  Political ideologies come in the form of trends.  It is the current trend to "bash" Israel.  Look, you can criticize Israel all you want; but you should also be able to criticize the other side.  When a person does this it gives their criticisms credibility because they are being objective and showing that they are thinking with a clear mind and really taking in the situation.  If you can't criticize the other side then, I would say, you don't fully understand the situation.  To see a situation like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as black and white is an oversimplification of the situation.  By the way all the coverage I have seen on US Media places Palestinian stories first and Israeli stories second.  An example of this would be CNN, on this channel one gets reporting like 400+ PALESTINAINS DEAD... ...Palestinians are still launching missiles.  This is hardly coverage skewed towards Israel, the first thing is always Palestinians being invaded and killed followed by a small parenthetical aside about Israel still being attacked.  I would say coverage in this manner shows the trend about which Parnell has spoken.


This doesn't really represent bias at all. It is just a simple fact that 400 Palestinians, mostly civilians, dying is a far more important and unfortunate reality than the firing of missiles that have killed only two persons at last check. To report them with equal importance would be similar to saying "Our top story today -  a gorgeous white girl dies in a car accident. In foreign news Africa is dead." Perhaps I exaggerate, but the juxtaposition emphasises that, while rockets are bad news, they really represent a small threat to life in Israel. The constant destruction of infrastructure, government and life in general in Palestine, however, is a grave human rights issue.


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Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 17:21
Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by Akolouthos

Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

Parnell is right. You don't have to believe what he says and not have a opinion on the matter. But if you run his train of thought, you may not be as biased to the point as having a Stars Wars mentality where there's one grand scheme to wipe out everything good another that is pure good and a under dog.
 
It's aggrevating getting into discussions with people that just keep going in circles and believe in things that only account for one idea even if the motives don't exactly help the interests of that party.
 
Let me just say, I may be the above case also, not saying I'm always in the right or even at all. But it's something I feel. I don't like Israel, but I could see alot strategic ideas on why the conflict could be played out, why other nations have motives in the area rather then something like a grand "Zionist Conspiracy".
 
Actually dis-attaching yourself in that manner and becoming too cynical has helped the non action of millions with the murder of over 6 million people. Thus these over simplifications do do damage. At least disagreeing and trying to show wrong in something creates debate.


 
I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone was advocating the type of apathy that has allowed this situation to get worse over the past several decades. In fact I think this apathy is a natural result of the angry propaganda that often permeates the discussion. If I get accused of being a militant supporter or sympathizer of Israel every time I try to argue for making a more objective analysis of the situation, of course it turns me off to the debate, precisely because I recognize that nothing substantive can be accomplished or resolved in such a dynamic. I think we can all agree that the overwhelming majority of the discussion of the conflict on this forum has not been productive.
 
-Akolouthos

I am speaking in generalities here seeing a few commonalities arise form this step back approach to these scenarios... the same thing got millions killed in Africa, taking out the morality issues out of it and just cynically viewing it as the " world still hasn't changed." Well that may be so, but that doesn't mean that we should not complain and do everything we can to change the reality that is very much like hell for those people into something more worthy of a human being. Darfur, Palestine, etc... Bosnia experienced thousands of deaths and massacres before Clinton decided to act, and even by then it was late for much of the populace... sometimes stepping back does more harm than good is all I am saying.


 
I understand. I guess what I am more concerned about is an undercurrent of disingenuousness that seems to run through these discussions. I generally avoid talking to people who are simply trying to spread propaganda, and the Lord knows we have enough of them on the forum, and specifically in the other thread dealing with this topic.
 
That said, I think you and I might be a bit closer than it would appear at first glance. The disconnect, I think, is that you would like to start the discussion beyond what I view as an essential first step. I require that anyone with whom I plan on discussing the topic be able to look at both Hamas and Israel, and to admit that they have both committed reprehensible actions; one might consider it a demand for a demonstration of intellectual good faith. I'm simply not interested in talking to people who would have the Israelis sit back while their homes were shelled, any more than I am interested in talking to people who see no problem with the Israelis blockading Palestinian towns with the wall. I'm not interested in hearing people complain about one side of the issue if they won't also point out the flaws of the other party. Quite frankly, until Hamas clearly acknowledges Israel's right to exist, I don't see how there will ever be any peace. And until Israel removes the remaining settlements and demolishes those sections of wall which cut Palestinians off from food and water, there will likewise be resentment.
 
I generally don't talk about the issue on this website, because the conversation -- I think you would agree -- has been largely childish and uninformed thus far. If I hear one more forum member who sounds like an official spokesman for one of the combatant groups, I'm going to scream.
 
-Akolouthos


Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 18:50
Hello to you all
 
I forgot about this thread so here is my catch up.
 
First, I am with truth when ever I see it, in the summer war of 2006 I saw that Israel was fully justified in its response though it committed some war crimes that the world ignored and should have been investigated and procecuted.
 
On the other this situation Israel was the one that began by first not fullfilling its obligations and then continuing to kill innocent Palestinians. I provided the link in the post so search for them.
 
Second, criticising Israel doesn't mean anti-semitism or being anti Jewish, I have nothing but respect for jews in general as human beings. On the other hand I have nothing but contempt to war criminals and those who defend them, jews, muslims or whatever they may be. Many jews across the world and within Israel rallied to the support of the Palestinian cause well before I was born and many in the current leadership were born. The harshest of "bashing" that Israel got came from inside Israel either by some Israeli media or individuals.
 
Anyways my opinion has always been violence only brings more violence. Israeli leaders are paranoid, they see the fire crackers Hamas throws at them as precursors to the next holocaust. They forget that when Israelis first withdrew from Ariha (Jericho) and Ramallah in 93-94, Palestinians greeted Israeli soldiers in the streets and gave them flowers. So much good will was thrown away by a groups of extremists, on both sides, that it may never get back.
 
Al-Jassas


Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2009 at 11:52
I don't want to say much or debate on this. Just to say that my thoughts are with the Palestinians and hope that this new ordeal ends soon in the best possible way for them. Gaza and West Bank are modern day huge concentration camps where people are denied their very basic civil liberties.
 
I travel often to Israel and have many Israeli friends so I have to say that they're wonderful and warm people in general, as all people are. It's not the people, it's their government that turns Israel into a terrorist state. A country cannot be built on blood and hate or it will end up in tears.


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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2009 at 17:44
Originally posted by Zaitsev

Regarding the 'staging' of photographs that you claim is occurring Menumorut, I pose the following question: Are you proposing that young children are, on their own accord, posing in front of moving military vehicles pelting them with rocks in order to draw media attention to the political oppression of the Palestinian people? This seems unlikely.It is indeed possible that photographers are coaxing youngsters to repeat the behaviour in order to get that shot, but this is most likely a pre-established behaviour rather than a unique creation of the photographer's imagination.


Yes, children are doing that, either they are determined by adults do to that in some specific moments or they do from their own initiative. As you may know, Hamas indoctrinates children by television programs (type in Youtube "hamas indoctrination") to combat Israel so their conscience in this way is very strong sin ce very little.


I don't say the Western photographers are part of these stagings, they want to be objective, with the exception of Palestinian media which deliberately manipulates.

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http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/3992/10ms4.jpg">



Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2009 at 19:20
bah

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Posted By: Kevin
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2009 at 21:13
Originally posted by Parnell

Originally posted by Sun Tzu

Ok I really don't have time to argue any more on this argument Hamas is a terroist organization so they need to be wiped out. I am siding with Israel because Hamas is a Terrorist organziation. Now with Palestinians I beleive they have every right to have their own state alongside Israel. Hamas is a blight on Islamic society and like Al-Quada gives Islam a bad rep to many Americans and other people worldwide. So I couldn't care who was at war with Hamas as long as Hamas is utterly destroyed.


Gah... As I've said before, lets bring on the apocolypse and get it over and done with.

What will the extermination of Hamas really mean? Surely some other, likely more radical group will simply take its place? Or perhaps we should just exterminate the entire Palestinian population so as these 'pernicious' organisations can't ever take hold?

You can't fight ideas out of the barrel of a gun. All your way of thinking will do is bring along a Nuclear holocaust some way down the road.

Something important that gets lost in all of this is that Hamas, no matter how unsavoury an organisation, is the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people and it is from them that they derive their authority and more importantly their legitimacy. If people aren't prepared to recognise this simple fundamental in a debate we might as well commit mass suicide now and give up on humanity altogether.


To answer your question Parnell,

I think the Israeli's see to gain by damaging Hama's as much as possible, the prospect of the more moderate Fatah, achieving political hegemony in the Palestinian territories as to at least reduce the threat to Israel some and perhaps move forward in the peace process with talks with Fatah.   


Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2009 at 21:56
Fatah has no democratic mandate. Progress should begin an end with this principle. Any Fatah government that emerges from these ashes will be nothing more than a puppet with no real legitimacy, and undoubtedly will simply make Hamas stronger. As I said, if someone wants to wipe out Hamas by force, the only way they can achieve that is to wipe out the entire Palestinian population.

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2009 at 12:19
Originally posted by Menumorut

Yes, children are doing that, either they are determined by adults do to that in some specific moments or they do from their own initiative. As you may know, Hamas indoctrinates children by television programs (type in Youtube "hamas indoctrination") to combat Israel so their conscience in this way is very strong sin ce very little.


First off, youtube is not considered a reliable academic source by pre-school standards. Secondly, I think you would find it quite tricky to train children to spontaneously throw rocks at armoured military vehicles at the first sign of a camera. To argue they would do so on their own initiative is simply ludicrous. They simply do not possess the deductive capabilities or world knowledge to determine political fallout of dramatic photography, nor the symbolism of such an action.

I don't say the Western photographers are part of these stagings, they want to be objective, with the exception of Palestinian media which deliberately manipulates.


This is, again, quite untrue. Western photographers do NOT want to be objective, they want to be paid. As evidenced by recent Reuters photoshop incidents, 'objectivism' can be flexible.


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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2009 at 13:29
Originally posted by Kevin

I was wondering if anyone else has noticed the trend in many Western societies where it seems "cool" to gang on Israel in terms of political and intellectual discussion and discourse, I've noticed more recently in the United States also. This trend seems to be popular especially, among young people such as around my age, and among people who are left-leaning in their politics. Among the young I've noticed that in many of the Facebook statuses of the past couple of days after the Israeli strikes in Gaza, that many of them had in their statuses such things like " Omg Israel is killing hundreds of innocent Palestinians over some rockets being fired". Or "Would you kill your neighbor for throwing stones at you", "Long live Hamas" or "Long live Palestine" just to give examples. It seems that most young people just like in their support of many other progressive or left-wing causes, have no idea what they are talking about, and in this case have no idea how complicated the politics of the Middle East are, especially the Israeli-Arab/Palestinian conflict in my opinion. Among those with with left-wing politics it seems that the epicenter of modern day anti-semitism has shifted from the far-right to the far-left.

Keep in mind, I'm just merely posting what I've seen in society on this issue more recently.                    


It's popular among many of us whom have a conscience and can not simply turn a blind eye to human suffering en masse; or much worse, attempt to justify it in the most irrelevant, dispicable and repetitive way. 

You can rest assured though, whatever the prevalent attitude is among the West's  population or sections thereof, its governing institutions will never beat up on Israel.  I guarantee it.  So don't worry there is no threat to the wanton or extremist agenda of that bastion of freedom and democracy that is Zionist Israel.


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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 14:58
Originally posted by hugoestr

Originally posted by Menumorut



The photo posted by Omar is obviously a propagandistically-aimed act, those children don't hope to stop the tanks but to impress the public watching the photographs.


Unfortunately these lies have effect, as the other make ups of Pallywood (fake deaths, injuries, electricity cut offs staged in videos or photoshoped).


Do you have evidence that this image was photoshoped? Besides, back before photoshop was common, I grew up watching Palestinian on TV throwing rocks at tanks.
 
Hugo I worked on Picture Post before its demise, and I was Art Editor of the Sunday Telegraph for five years. That picture was posed.
 
I take no sides on the general issue because I have no patience with either the Israelis or the Palestinians, but I know a posed picture when I see one.


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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 15:04
Originally posted by Parnell

Thats a little silly. The suicide bomb has long since become a military tactic. In fairness, in the world of modern warfare when ak47s are being wielded against tanks, the suicide bomb is a highly potent weapon. Not justifying it or anything but its a little more complicated than regarding it as some simple act of cowardice.
A suicide bomber blowing up a military depot is one thing. A suicide bomber blowing himself up in a crowded bus is another.
 
And getting teenage girls to become suicide bombers is something else again.


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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 15:10
Ako what you said is exactly what I feel. So I repeat it.
 
Originally posted by Akolouthos

[
That said, I think you and I might be a bit closer than it would appear at first glance. The disconnect, I think, is that you would like to start the discussion beyond what I view as an essential first step. I require that anyone with whom I plan on discussing the topic be able to look at both Hamas and Israel, and to admit that they have both committed reprehensible actions; one might consider it a demand for a demonstration of intellectual good faith. I'm simply not interested in talking to people who would have the Israelis sit back while their homes were shelled, any more than I am interested in talking to people who see no problem with the Israelis blockading Palestinian towns with the wall. I'm not interested in hearing people complain about one side of the issue if they won't also point out the flaws of the other party. Quite frankly, until Hamas clearly acknowledges Israel's right to exist, I don't see how there will ever be any peace. And until Israel removes the remaining settlements and demolishes those sections of wall which cut Palestinians off from food and water, there will likewise be resentment.
 
I generally don't talk about the issue on this website, because the conversation -- I think you would agree -- has been largely childish and uninformed thus far. If I hear one more forum member who sounds like an official spokesman for one of the combatant groups, I'm going to scream.
 
-Akolouthos


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 01:47
Originally posted by gcle2003

SPAM


Clap

Originally posted by Code of Conduct

VII. B. 2. Spam: Spam is defined as irrelevant, wrongly placed, or redundant messages posted for attention in the Forum or sent via PM as unsolicited mail. Spam will be deleted from the forum, and constitutes a violation of use. Posting under multiple user-names by an individual member is also considered as spamming.


It could have all been in one post, or two at the most.


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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 16:35
As was fairly obvious to the normal person I accidentally sent two empty messages, just quoting someone else without replying. I also sent the two messages with replies. I've now deleted the two empty ones, which I hadn't seen before, and agree of course that they were redundant.
 
Spam has to be deliberate. Redundant messages include childish ones berating someone for pressing the wrong button twice, in an attempt to be 'clever'.


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Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 20:00
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by hugoestr

Originally posted by Menumorut

The photo posted by Omar is obviously a propagandistically-aimed act, those children don't hope to stop the tanks but to impress the public watching the photographs. Unfortunately these lies have effect, as the other make ups of Pallywood (fake deaths, injuries, electricity cut offs staged in videos or photoshoped).
Do you have evidence that this image was photoshoped? Besides, back before photoshop was common, I grew up watching Palestinian on TV throwing rocks at tanks.

 

Hugo I worked on Picture Post before its demise, and I was Art Editor of the Sunday Telegraph for five years. That picture was posed.

 

I take no sides on the general issue because I have no patience with either the Israelis or the Palestinians, but I know a posed picture when I see one.


I stand corrected

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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 21:31
My question right now is...WHY?

Why use weapons that can randomly harm anyone and that are less effective if you want to target Hamas?

Look at this video and tell me if you have an answer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCFq_CgqT8k - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCFq_CgqT8k


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Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!


Posted By: Dream208
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 22:58

This might a dangerous question to raise:

 

How do we define who's innocent and who's not when one party is systematically oppressed/exploited another? In that kind of situation, the party that is being oppressed will consider entire population of the oppressing party's innocence revoked, since it is on the oppressed party's suffering that the people of oppressing party enjoys their lives.

 

To understand the violence, especially kind of violence that aims toward both 'civilians' and 'military' targets, we need to first understand what kind of sentimental complex such violence grows up from.

 
And from history we learned that the cycle of hatred will only cease in two scenarios: 1. The complete annihilation of one side, up to the last children. 2. The gradual reconciliation that becomes only possible when people were given time and chances to forget the past, or at least to distant themselves from it.

 

The current cycle of hatred in Gaza arises from the systematic oppression from Israel to Palestine, and Israel had done little to change such oppressive circumstance. If they wished this invasion would end this conflict for good, they better wished that there would be no Palestine left to remember their sufferings after this war. Of course, this will only put Israel into shoes of those who committed crimes of similar nature on them a little more than a half of century ago.

 

 

Again, sorry about my English.



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 23:26
Originally posted by gcle2003

As was fairly obvious to the normal person I accidentally sent two empty messages, just quoting someone else without replying. I also sent the two messages with replies. I've now deleted the two empty ones, which I hadn't seen before, and agree of course that they were redundant.


While this is a nice excuse, it does not explain why each of the redundant posts quoted a different message in addition to a third that contained only a single line of your own work which stated you were quoting someone.


Regardless, back to the topic at hand. I agree with dream that the current engagement is not going to halt rocket attacks. In the end it is only going to fuel the hatred of the Palestinians and likely result in more attacks over the long-run. Short of planting a nuclear weapon in the West Bank Israel is not going to end the rocket attacks.


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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 23:49
Dream208, your english is just fine. :)
My main question is why using weapons that are known to harm civilians? A phosrphorus bomb won't kill Hamas members. Maybe it will kill some, but with them a much larger amount of innocent people with join them. Cluster bombs, phosphor bombs etc are known to be cruel to civilians.



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Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!


Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 23:55
Zaitsev, it's not in your entitlement to be confronting people's posts. If you have a problem with someone then bring it up with a mod or admin. I don't know if you have something against gcle, but if there are problems there are much more mature ways to handle them instead of pointing a problem out and in a confrontational manner put a clapping emotcon.
 
If your going to say it wasn't confrontational, it can be viewed as it easily as it's still bad taste.


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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey


Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 00:39
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYNLXYLM44c&feature=channel_page

Interesting... quite the man.... But I wonder, would he made this same statement had he won the nomination?


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 00:56
Originally posted by Flipper

Dream208, your english is just fine. :)
My main question is why using weapons that are known to harm civilians? A phosrphorus bomb won't kill Hamas members. Maybe it will kill some, but with them a much larger amount of innocent people with join them. Cluster bombs, phosphor bombs etc are known to be cruel to civilians.



...because they don't seem to give a ---- if it does ...


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 06:57
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

Zaitsev, it's not in your entitlement to be confronting people's posts. If you have a problem with someone then bring it up with a mod or admin. I don't know if you have something against gcle, but if there are problems there are much more mature ways to handle them instead of pointing a problem out and in a confrontational manner put a clapping emotcon.
 
If your going to say it wasn't confrontational, it can be viewed as it easily as it's still bad taste.


SearchAndDestroy, what you say may or may not be true, but you seem to be doing the exact same thing. Could we please make the tiniest bit of effort to keep this on-topic and reduce the spam?

Now, once again, back to the topic of the thread. Personally I view Israel's strategy, including the use of cluster and incendiary munitions, as a sledge-hammer approach rather than a surgical 'scalpel'. The simple fact is that if they kill off 90% of the population they'll likely kill off at least 20% of the terrorists. Besides, children are just future terrorists right and the women are terrorist production factories right?


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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 12:22
why? es_bih covered it succintly. They do not value Palestinian lives, if they did they would let food and medicine in looong before this flared up. Either way they will use whatever advantage they can to protect their own lives in battle regardless of the civilians. 

You cannot have 'surgical' strikes in a places like Gaza and not hurt a massive amount of innocent people, its like bombing Sydney or New York to get to the police force and saying 'we are doing our best to minimise deaths'....

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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 12:46
Originally posted by King John

   By the way all the coverage I have seen on US Media places Palestinian stories first and Israeli stories second.  An example of this would be CNN, on this channel one gets reporting like 400+ PALESTINAINS DEAD... ...Palestinians are still launching missiles.  This is hardly coverage skewed towards Israel, the first thing is always Palestinians being invaded and killed followed by a small parenthetical aside about Israel still being attacked.  I would say coverage in this manner shows the trend about which Parnell has spoken.
well yeah but are how many stories;
  •  is Hamas simply passed off as a terrorist organisation, that wants to destroy Israel? aggressor
  •  is Israel reported as defending itself even if its judge heavey handed?defender
  • not enough has been said of the humanitarian distaster that precded this current round, context to those rockets
  • not enough questions about why the US or Isreal could not accept and in fact isolated a democratically elected party, like them or not.
In fact Isreal/US calls them autocratic and has refused to talk all along, the irony.... Double standards on democracy, and a naked attempt at picking corrupt puppets against the palistinian will. What do they expect, to do...wheeling in Abbas to make peace in gaza? pff. where has the responsbility in the build up to this been discussed? nup 'just rockets have landed we must defend ourselves'

I could keep going....there are soo many more subtle biases, that make those headline (and very reportable) casualty numbers a phyrric victory a for palistinian point of view to ever get across.



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Posted By: Northman
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 01:50
Originally posted by Zaitsev


SearchAndDestroy, what you say may or may not be true, but you seem to be doing the exact same thing. Could we please make the tiniest bit of effort to keep this on-topic and reduce the spam?
 
Zaitsev, read the CoC - and if you again, in your infinite arrogance, have any other comment in public than "Yes Sir" to the directions given by a moderator or admin, I will make sure you won't give any comments to anyone on this forum for a very long time. 
 
As you already have a previous record, consider this a friendly advice.
A warning, would have had immediate consequences but don't be mistaken - it was close.
 
~ Northman
 


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Posted By: Sun Tzu
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 05:12
What I find interesting is that for some reason people want to legitmitize Hamas for being Democratic. Correct if I am wrong but wasn't George Bush Democratically elected? also you do know that Hitler's Nazis were also elected. That is one flaw of democracy is that it is easy to sway the masses with rhetoric in order to get a vote, it happens every four years in the U.S. the great bastion of Democracy. Plus you have to think of the amount of education that Palestinians have(no offense)do they really know what is good for them?

During the Presidential campaign you should have heard all the stuff rednecks said about Obama. My dad was talking to a customer a sweet looking old lady and she whispered to him " get your dogs and shotguns, we are going to have a coon in the White House."

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Sun Tzu

All warfare is based on deception - Sun Tzu


Posted By: Super Goat (^_^)
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 06:07
Plus you have to think of the amount of education that Palestinians have(no offense)do they really know what is good for them?


What about their education?



And what do you mean by legitimized? Bush and Hitler weren't legitimate leaders?


Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 06:56
Hello Sun
 
Illiteracy in the Palestinian territories is less than 10% with near 100% high school enrollment (much higher than Israel or the US). All Hamas and Fatah leaderships have post graduate degrees so most of the MPs.
 
Hamas was elected, it formed a government, stopped rockets and despite signing a deal Israel continued to assasinate its members, refused to open the world's largest concentration camp and allow supplies even medical ones. Hamas defended itself yet the world still blame them.
 
AL-Jassas


Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 14:06
Originally posted by Sun Tzu

What I find interesting is that for some reason people want to legitmitize Hamas for being Democratic.
well they reflect the collective will of most of the people, so in all its weakness there is no other more powerful way than that. what would you suggest? give them a King and Queen let the corrupt Fatah mafia run it.

You way joke about poor choices like Bush, but thankfully they get voted out, eventaully. I can name every royal leader in the Middle east to be an even funnier example of real authority and there is no exit unless you throw them out. The West, esp the USA legitimises it power plays with 'spreading democracy', hence why we point out Hamas' position

Originally posted by Sun Tzu

Plus you have to think of the amount of education that Palestinians have(no offense)do they really know what is good for them?
I think every imperialist uses the same logic to rationalise their need to rule others. The Palestinians can rule themselves, a great many are educated (not that this should ever be a prerequisite).




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Posted By: Sun Tzu
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 03:11
Well having constant hostility towards Israel also upsets the balance in an already unbalanced Middle-East. What I am trying to point out is that Democracy isn't what it used to be, anyone can win an election if you have powerful friends and money. How do you think Senators get elected, one reason why the U.S. Government is plauged by corruption.
Initially I had full-fledged support for Israel, after I heard about Hamas firing their rockets I thought "let them beat the crap out of Hamas," Now seeing the destruction the Israelis have brought and that they were blocking U.N. convoys, my support for them is wavering. I think they could have tried a little more diplomacy instead of just attacking Gaza. The Israelis have been through crap, there actually was a Holocaust 6 million died. Now what Israel is doing is making them no better than their previous aggressors.
Look you guys have your opinions and I have mine I respect your opinions and to be honest I wish both Israel and Palestine wouldn't have to fight. I wish we didn't have to fight over a strip of land that we have foughten for like children over the last 1,000 years. As far as my opinion goes is that people shouldn't legitimize governments because they are "Democratic", there is no utopian society. So just because the people chose their leader doesn't mean their leaders have the best interest of their people, you guys should know that. There are two sides to this war and this war is like all wars because war never changes.



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Sun Tzu

All warfare is based on deception - Sun Tzu


Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 03:22
I don't even know why I'm posting here -- desperation borne of futility? I just wished to note that the dialogue is so far from the point where I believe it could bear any fruit that I have decided not even to try. It saddens me to think that the dialogue on this topic in this forum is just as biased, predictable, and, quite frankly, infantile as the dialogue I have seen everywhere else.
 
I don't fall down clearly on a "side" on this one, so I believe I may justly say that I expected better of us.
 
-Akolouthos


Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 05:16
Hello to you all
 
More Brits died from IRA and other republican militants than Israeli citizens from Hamas rockets (15 or 16 in the last 4 years) yet despite the support the IRA got from the top echlons of the Irish government it didn't go distroying every town in Ireland nor masscre those who were invloved and those who were simply powerless.
 
There is a hundred different approaches Israel could have taken and these were successful in the past and would have produced more results yet the insistance on mass murder in something beyond reason.
 
Some analysts here say one of the reasons such a massive campaign was launched was that Israel wanted simply to force the Palestinians to abandon Gaza to Egypt then close the borders and unilaterally declare Gaza Israeli territory. This is exactly the kind of thing the early zionists did in Haifa and Tiberias back in 47-48 which lead to the mass migration of the Palestinians though the events of those years were much more bloodie.
 
Anyway in my opinion, the ball is back at the hands of the Palestinians, they must judge the situation by reason not by rhetoric. They accept the truce principle, those in Gaza, but the armchair generals of Damascus and Lebanon refuse it. I hope those in Gaza listen to reason and cut ties with those in Damascus and Lebanon and end this war. Its time for rebuilding not empty slogans.
 
Al-Jassas


Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 06:28
^ good point and post Al Jassas

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 20:44
Sun Tzu, democracy never was 'what it used to be' to begin with.

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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 21:55
Originally posted by Akolouthos

 
I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone was advocating the type of apathy that has allowed this situation to get worse over the past several decades. In fact I think this apathy is a natural result of the angry propaganda that often permeates the discussion. If I get accused of being a militant supporter or sympathizer of Israel every time I try to argue for making a more objective analysis of the situation, of course it turns me off to the debate, precisely because I recognize that nothing substantive can be accomplished or resolved in such a dynamic. I think we can all agree that the overwhelming majority of the discussion of the conflict on this forum has not been productive.
 
-Akolouthos
 
 
So what's happening there, what does your analysis suggest? I would say that if Arabs wouldn't start the war in 1948 and/or Jews would stick to the territories according to UN plan after their victory the situation now would be more peacefull.


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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 22:07

Originally posted by Flipper

My question right now is...WHY?

Why use weapons that can randomly harm anyone and that are less effective if you want to target Hamas?

Look at this video and tell me if you have an answer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCFq_CgqT8k - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCFq_CgqT8k

I heard that Israelis targets are not only Hamas people but also infrastructure and importantly some underground roots connecting Egypt with Gaza which help importing weapons etc.



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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2009 at 10:12
^ as for the tunnels they wouldn't of been so important if Gaza wasn't under siege. A huge amount of needed supplies also went under them, other than weapons. not that Gazan's shouldnt get weapons. 

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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2009 at 21:06

Do you think that Gaza blockade is just a jewish caprice? What would YOU do if you were in their shoes?



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2009 at 22:08
Originally posted by Anton

Do you think that Gaza blockade is just a jewish caprice? What would YOU do if you were in their shoes?



Not stockade people in tents for 3 generations for starters


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2009 at 22:09
Originally posted by Leonidas

^ as for the tunnels they wouldn't of been so important if Gaza wasn't under siege. A huge amount of needed supplies also went under them, other than weapons. not that Gazan's shouldnt get weapons. 


Yup. And water has been cut off for close to two weeks. Jon Stewart had a good segment regarding the siege a couple of shows ago. About the only main stream critique about Israel's wrong doing... in the US that is.


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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2009 at 10:09
Originally posted by Anton

Do you think that Gaza blockade is just a jewish caprice? What would YOU do if you were in their shoes?

Yes it is. This 'they have no choice' type lines is rubbish

 Talk to however they elect, look for exit strategy for expansion and a real settlement. Hamas has to be talked to there is no other way, the hard line position of Israel indulged by the neo cons did nothing but punish the people for voting agianst their wish. This war has done nothing but damage Israel's image, much in the same way as those terrible suicide bombers harmed the Palestinian cause. The plucky little victim that fought the aggressors is a lost and forgotten image the Israeli's have now gave up in pursuit for total domination over their neighbours.

.... you cant build a wall around the Palestinians (mainly very poor refugees already!), deny them basic necessities, humiliate them at check points and arbitrary evictions/confiscations (over a long period of time) and then be surprised they have become more radicalized over a generation. WTF

What could you do?
1. pursue the same same, and know your just going to fight it out until one of you is no more or
2.  exit those very policies and start compensation, fence mending. Knowing that there will still be blood shed but in the long term, and with patience, the radicals will lose that enemy to fight.



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Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2009 at 11:34
Israeli leaders believe that all of Palestine belongs to them. And Hamas believes all of Palestive belongs to them. Still, Israel refuses to talk to Hamas (elected representative of the Palestinians), saying that it does not believe in 'Israel's right to exist', and US and EU unconditionally support them. 

Hamas already says that it is willing to make long term truce and leave the matter to later generations, based on 67 borders. Other Arab states also said that they will recognise Israel if they retreat to 67 borders. UN resolutions say Israel should return to 67 borders. Even the US and and the EU say that Israel should return to 67 borders. Many within Israel itself want a return to 67 borders. 

However, Israeli leadership has demonstrated that it has no intention of returning to the 67 borders, and thus no interest in making peace, and Palestinians know this and that is why they support whomever resists them. Yesterday it was Arafat, today it is Hamas. 

It is, in fact, very easy to bring peace to Palestine. UN Security Council passes a resolution calling for economic sanctions against Israel if Israel does not immediately freeze settlement expansion, and return to 67 borders, say, within five years. In return Arab states will diplomatically recognise Israel. All it takes for this to pass is to have an American President who will not veto it. Unfortunately that is not likely to happen. 




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Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2009 at 14:27
Hello to you all
 
Actually Bey racists like Avigdore Lieberman are hailed as "heroes of freedom" and "responsible elected politicians" and the best joke of them all "men of peace" despite he not only called for stripping Israel's Arab citizens of their civil liberties but even kick them out of their own lands and transfering the entire Arab population of Palestine out of the country.
 
One of the reasons why the US/EU doesn't recognise Hamas is that "they don't recognize Israel's right to exist". The problem is Israeli politicians who don't believe in the Palestinian right to live, not a joke, are given the red carpet treatment.
 
As for your comment Anton, the cleansing of Palestinians living in whats is now Israel began BEFORE the war of 48 started (since early 47 actually). The war in 48 was a reaction on the worlds silence. 
 
As for what happened, read my post a few pages back, Israel didn't attack "terrorist infrastructure", it attacked everything. The rockets are fired most from open ground, and Hamas released many footages to prove that. Israel attacked all Gaza hospital, the harbour, which hasn't been opened for 4 years, hundreds of schools and literally distroyed all the farms of Northern Gaza. Hardly Hamas infrastructure.
 
Al-Jassas


Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 09:57
^ since HAMAS is the authority the social infrastructure is HAMAS as far as isreal is concerned. It gets a bit perverse as Israel wont recognise them in that role. Either way they dress it up as an attack on Hamas which is like bombing the water, power, schoolling of the USA and claiming to attack the Democrats.

'We will take down everything they can rule and adminster you with, anything that you may need which makes them legit in that way, but it really between us and them - meh maybe a bit of retribution for voting them in too'

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Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 11:04
In my opinion, the one real problem is that Israel refuses to behave according to its nature.

Basically, today's Israelis are colons and heirs of colons who try to escape from the post-colonial fate of their country. In other words, when you colonize a land, if you don't simply massacre all the previous inhabitants, you are going to have to deal with them.

Imagine the state South Africa would be in if the Whites insisted on having a separate state. I mean of course there would be rockets from Soweto falling all over their territory. Expecting Gaza to behave as any other country in the world is the same as granting independence to South LA and then wondering why it is not an example of economic development and pacific democracy.

As odd as it may seem, I think that Arab nationalists should support the idea of a Great Israel. There is already 4 millions Palestinians now, plus a million Israeli Muslims, plus a number of potential "returnees" from around the world. As Israel would be forced to grant them the right to vote... Hamas may rule Tel Aviv within a few years.

The One Big Israel solution is damn better than the flawed so-called Two States solution.


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I am a free donkey!


Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 11:16
Has anybody wondered when Hezbollah was created? In 1982, during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.
Has anybody wondered how Hamas popped up as a major organization? Thanks to the American-Israeli favouring, who saw Hamas as a better option than the left-leaning and anti-American Fatah, during the late 80s and early 90s.

Hamas and Hezbollah are nothing more than a symptom of the situation. The problem is not tactical, that is who throws rockets first and to whom, but deeply political. The blatant truth is that Israel still obstructs the creation of an Arab State in Palestine, in spite of the UN partition plan, who clearly defined the creation of 2 States in the region.



http://www.undemocracy.com/A-RES-181%28II%29/page_3 - http://www.undemocracy.com/A-RES-181(II)/page_3

In addition to that, the State of Israel treats the Palestinians as the Apartheid the Blacks, violating their most basic human rights.Unless it really tries to find a solution,guerilla  organizations will simply continue to pop up.


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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)


Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 12:31
As odd as it may seem, I think that Arab nationalists should support the idea of a Great Israel. There is already 4 millions Palestinians now, plus a million Israeli Muslims, plus a number of potential "returnees" from around the world. As Israel would be forced to grant them the right to vote... Hamas may rule Tel Aviv within a few years.

The One Big Israel solution is damn better than the flawed so-called Two States solution.

Actually there are people on both sides who support a One State Solution. They are not Arab nationalists. Most prominent figure that I know is the famous Israeli historian Ilan Pappe. They want one secular Palestine and equality for all. In other words a modern civilised state.

I think it is a an obvious and noble goal, but it may not be achieveable in the short run. I think in the beginning there should be two entitites and peace. They should later merge into one.

As to 'isrealis have to give the Arabs voting rights', no they don't. They haven't in the last 40 years why would they now? They are setting up the Bantustans already.

Imagine Turkey declaring parts of the the Kurdish south-east 'territories', revoking the political rights of Kurds who live there, keeping its control on all aspects of their governance, sets up checkpoints (there are many already) and curfews everywhere and bombs the cities whenever they shoot someone... What do you reckon, would the a-holes (i.e. including most EU conservatives) in the West who call Israel a 'democracy' then accept that Turkey is one as well? 

US used to call South Africa a democracy and Nelson mandela a 'terrorist'. Today they call Israel a 'democracy'. So I say that's Western so-called 'democracy', 'rule of the white (or 'honorary white') master race'.


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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 20:52
As far as I know, quite a few Arabs who live in the actual territory of Israel have Israeli citizenship and vote for Israeli parlament.

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Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 21:03
Hello to you all
 
Actually most Palestinians at one point didn't have a problem with one state and so did many Israelis. The problem is that even if 99.99% of the Palestinians and Jews living in the area voted for a unified democratic secular state, people in the US will oppose it and will force a two state solution, one "jewish" and the other Arab.
 
Personally I wish this happen, a unified state that is, but it won't.
 
Al-Jassas


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 21:31
A unified state would be the best compromise, but the current government of Isreal rather keeps their legitimacy on the whole Isreal religious structure rather than on a unified state idea. Also there needs to be a lot of healing and change of ideology by both sides due to the last sixty years to make that happen. 

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Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 00:00
I really doubt that a unified State could become a reality.

 The Israeli State is created based on Jewish identity. You can see that in , virtually, every aspect of it. It's flag has the pentacle, it's Coat of Arms has the menorah, the calendar used is the Jewish one.

Symbols of the State of Israel
Description of the Present-Day Situation
Israel's symbols are its javascript:launchExternalSite%28http:%5C/%5C/www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org%5C/jsource%5C/History%5C/isflag.html%29; - flag , the seal or javascript:launchExternalSite%28http:%5C/%5C/www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org%5C/jsource%5C/History%5C/emblem.html%29; - emblem of the state,and the national anthem, javascript:launchExternalSite%28http:%5C/%5C/www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org%5C/jsource%5C/History%5C/hatikva.html%29; - Hatikva . The flag consists in two horizontal stripes and the Star of David between them, all  in light-blue on a white background. The two stripes are intended to recall the Talit, or prayer shawl; the Star of David, or David's Shield, has served as a Jewish symbol since as early as the seventh century BCE (Kashani 1998). The emblem is also blue and white, and depicts the menorah (candelabrum) from the ancient temple in Jerusalem surrounded by an olive branch on either side; all this above the word "Israel" in Hebrew. The national anthem describes the millenia-old Jewish hope of freedom and return to the homeland.

The national days of rest in Israel correspond to the major Jewish holidays: Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur, the first and last days of Sukkot (Tabernacles) and Passover, and Shavuot (Pentecost). Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, is the national day of rest. Non-Jews have the right to observe their own holidays according to their customs.
Israel's two official languages are Hebrew and Arabic, and all ordinances, official government forms and documents must be presented in both languages. The state broadcasts radio and television news in both languages, and a Member of Knesset may address the plenum in either language. The educational system is divided as well, with some schools taught in Arabic, and other schools taught in Hebrew.
..........................
Symbols, anthem, and holidays.
The symbols, holidays, and anthem of the State of Israel represent Jewish history, culture, and Zionist ideology.
............................
The symbols are exclusive, representing the majority and not the minority.

 


http://www.cfisrael.org//a159.html?rsID=26 - http://www.cfisrael.org//a159.html?rsID=26

 Have a look at the Statistical Abstract of Israel ( http://www1.cbs.gov.il/reader/ - http://www1.cbs.gov.il/reader/ ).Click on the SOURCES OF POPULATION GROWTH, BY DISTRICT,
POPULATION GROUP AND RELIGION
, for example. You'll see that, although there is a distinct categorization for RELIGION, the POPULATION GROUP categorization is also compiled with religious criteria for the Jews.


POPULATION GROUP קבוצת אוכלוסייה
.........................................

JEWS AND OTHERS(6) (6) יהודים ואח

.........................................

ARABS(5) (5) ערבים
...........................................


In all these Statistics, Palestine is stated as Judea and Samaria.

The State of Israel was not meant to be a multi-cultural, but a Jewish one. And the question is: Does the Israeli State has the will to fully integrate Palestinians , risking to lose it's Jewish character? When taking under consideration that the whole point behind the creation of Israel was the creation of a Jewish State , a Jewish Heaven where Jews from around the world could seek refuge?


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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)


Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 10:11
One state solution is a pipe dream, a good one, but nothing more in todays environment. You will need to get the 2 state solution working first, in peace and within 1 maybe 2 generations both sides should see the practicalities (greater good) of it.

Cant see why Lebanon shouldn't be considered a part of the same greater nation.



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Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 11:44
As far as I know, quite a few Arabs who live in the actual territory of Israel have Israeli citizenship and vote for Israeli parlament.
Israel has been controlling the whole of Palestine for 40 years. All of that land is de facto (i.e. actual) Israeli land.  

When Turkey declares the South East are 'territories', and abolish the  rights of the Kurds, Kurds in rest of Turkey will retain their voting rights. According to you that will be OK, right? Because the Kurds in the 'actual land' of Turkey will still have their rights.


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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 21:28
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

When Turkey declares the South East are 'territories', and abolish the  rights of the Kurds, Kurds in rest of Turkey will retain their voting rights. According to you that will be OK, right? Because the Kurds in the 'actual land' of Turkey will still have their rights.
 
I did not say it's OK. Anyway, how many Kurds live in "actual Turkey"? :)


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