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"Beating" up on Israel?

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  Quote Kevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "Beating" up on Israel?
    Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 03:39
I was wondering if anyone else has noticed the trend in many Western societies where it seems "cool" to gang on Israel in terms of political and intellectual discussion and discourse, I've noticed more recently in the United States also. This trend seems to be popular especially, among young people such as around my age, and among people who are left-leaning in their politics. Among the young I've noticed that in many of the Facebook statuses of the past couple of days after the Israeli strikes in Gaza, that many of them had in their statuses such things like " Omg Israel is killing hundreds of innocent Palestinians over some rockets being fired". Or "Would you kill your neighbor for throwing stones at you", "Long live Hamas" or "Long live Palestine" just to give examples. It seems that most young people just like in their support of many other progressive or left-wing causes, have no idea what they are talking about, and in this case have no idea how complicated the politics of the Middle East are, especially the Israeli-Arab/Palestinian conflict in my opinion. Among those with with left-wing politics it seems that the epicenter of modern day anti-semitism has shifted from the far-right to the far-left.

Keep in mind, I'm just merely posting what I've seen in society on this issue more recently.                    

Edited by Kevin - 01-Jan-2009 at 08:10
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 04:00
Its good to hear that young americans are starting to have a moral conscious. Hopefully one day your country will stop giving bombs to them to slaughter innocents.
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 04:33

I find it kind of intriguing that Hamas would claim that many civilians have been killed, when they themselves have been firing 100 rockets a day into Isreal killing civilians as well.

The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations.
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  Quote Kevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 04:36
Originally posted by Penelope

I find it kind of intriguing that Hamas would claim that many civilians have been killed, when they themselves have been firing 100 rockets a day into Isreal killing civilians as well.



Exactly!

One of the facts of this conflict that I feel are being ignored. 
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 05:11
Yep, poor Israeli civilians. Both of them. Well one, the other was an Arab.

Hamas rockets have killed only 2 people as of day before yesterday.
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  Quote Sun Tzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 05:47
Yea but your forgetting that they were firing rockets first, and that's an act of war Israel's only choice is too defend yourself.

"Would you kill your neighbor for throwing stones at you"

seriously who the hell said that, that's about the dumbest statement I've heard.
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  Quote Kevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 05:56
Originally posted by Sun Tzu

Yea but your forgetting that they were firing rockets first, and that's an act of war Israel's only choice is too defend yourself.

"Would you kill your neighbor for throwing stones at you"

seriously who the hell said that, that's about the dumbest statement I've heard.


Yeah, especially since these types of stones can kill you. 
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 06:17

Originally posted by Sun Tzu

Yea but your forgetting that they were firing rockets first, and that's an act of war Israel's only choice is too defend yourself.

Well blockades are often taken as an act of war too ... Israel itself declared war when it was blockaded by the closure of the Suez, and promptly mobilized its forces and launched an assault on Egypt, beginning the Suez Crisis. Ironically, this is how Israel acquired the Gaza Strip in the first place - by firing shots over a blockade.

Similarly, in this situation, rockets were fired after Israel refused a ceasefire deal from Hamas that would have lifted the blockade on the Gaza Strip, which is threatening economic collapse and perhaps even famine.



Edited by edgewaters - 01-Jan-2009 at 06:21
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 06:31
Hello to you all
 
For the millionth and one times, Israel broke the June ceasefire over 100 times. It killed during the "ceasefire" some 50 innocent Palestinians. The world said nothing, the US said nothing, the "intellectuals" said nothing. People on either side of the politics said nothing. But when Hamas implemented every condition of the ceasefire including a real war against Islamic Jihad and Fatah member who fired a few rockets in response to Israeli violations that world condemned them. When they complained about Israeli behaviour the world condemned them, even now the world condemn them and makes them responsile for what is hapenning these recent days despite the fact that it was Israel which ended the truce, it was Israel that refused 6 Palestinian offeres to this day to stop firing rockets just as the Americans wanted.
 
Here are some links to news you never heard about and please read everyone:
 
The agreement of last June:
 
 
Here is a UN report about Israeli violations, note here Hamas itself didn't violate the truce, it captured those responsible and punished them:
 
Hamas arrests people responsible for violating the ceasefire:
 
Here is another about Israeli attacks on Gaza in November despite admittance of it being followed by the Palestinians:
 
And Barak admitts the cease fire is working:
 
Another UN report on the frequent violation of the ceasefirce, here the continuation of the blockade it signed a deal to lift it:
 
This is just part of what was reported and people conveniently forgot during the past 6 months. So who is at fault again?
 
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 09:41
Originally posted by Kevin

Originally posted by Sun Tzu

Yea but your forgetting that they were firing rockets first, and that's an act of war Israel's only choice is too defend yourself.

"Would you kill your neighbor for throwing stones at you"

seriously who the hell said that, that's about the dumbest statement I've heard.


Yeah, especially since these types of stones can kill you. 

Poor Israel... how can they cope?

(Image originally posted by Armenian Survival a couple of years ago I think)
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 10:24


The photo posted by Omar is obviously a propagandistically-aimed act, those children don't hope to stop the tanks but to impress the public watching the photographs.


Unfortunately these lies have effect, as the other make ups of Pallywood (fake deaths, injuries, electricity cut offs staged in videos or photoshoped).

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 12:19
Indeed it is quite accurate to say that the international community is 'beating up' on Israel. Tempting as it is to liken this to the international community 'beating up' on Nazi Germany, I will do so in only this round-about and cruelly ironic way.

The general point being that the international community is 'beating up' on Israel because of their repeated human rights infringements, militant and fascist policies and extreme nationalism and perceived moral superiority. When you add to this a situation of occupation of a poor country by a wealthy and well-armed nation which hesitates not once in using military force against civilians, as well as race and religious divisions... well it's basically quite obvious why they're getting 'beat up'.

There are indeed some valid points when the more uneducated youths shout anti-Israel slogans simply because they're backed by America, referenced in the same sentence as George Bush or they heard someone else say it. However this is simply intellectual cannon fodder attached to a more significant issue.

Myself, I shall cease to be anti-Israel when it adopts more moderate and productive policies that act to end the violence. By which I mean my view is unlikely to change in the near future and I would not complain too loudly if the international community took a more literal approach to 'beating up' on Israel.
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 14:07

Wow Meu, when did you get Israeli citizenship?

Here are some links that a Jewish Israeli oganization wrote about the "fake deaths" of 4 month old terrorists and other matters:

http://www.btselem.org/Download/200705_Gaza_Insert_eng.pdf
 
Myspace videos since a picture is worth a thousand words:
 
and the website:
 
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 14:58
I don't deny everything, only what is fake in international media manipulated by Palestinians.


But we are offtopic, those who don't know about the subject can find by googling Pallywood (on Youtube too are many videos about this).

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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 00:07
Germans usually have a problem with these thematics because of our history. So ChanceloretteTongue Merkel said it was just alone the fault of Hamas. I agree with her that Hamas are terrorist, brutal, ideological, rediculous murderer. But you need allways two for a battle. I am sure many Israeli and Palestinians want peace but the are following the wrong people in both countries.
Beating up on Israel? We had this in Germany during the Bush II Iraq war. Sadam was a murderer but he was not responsible for 9/11. When we were against the war, when we said something against Guantanamo, we were anti-american. And if people now say something against Israel they are anti-israelic. NO! It is hard to fight against terrorists, but to use their methods isn't the right way. Israel does nothing honest to make peace with its palestinian neighbour. One new settlement after the other. Israel and Palestine need a coalition of the decents and respectables and not of all these hawks.
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  Quote Sun Tzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 01:08
how can they cope?(Image originally posted by Armenian Survival a couple of years ago I think)[/QUOTE]

Omar... I really don't want this to be a heated argument frankly I really have no clue what they should with Israel or the city we have been like kids for a thousand years. What Hamas did was an act of war and I could care less if your country's GDP or military was weak or strong. If you were to fire missiles into my country I would attack you with full force and with everything I got until you were utterly defeated which I hope will happen to Hamas. Hamas should have been destroyed years ago, removing Hamas would be one less pulsating cyst that our world has to deal with.

whew sorry for the brashness and the crude words, but this situation over there really gets on my nerves.
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 03:37
Originally posted by Menumorut



The photo posted by Omar is obviously a propagandistically-aimed act, those children don't hope to stop the tanks but to impress the public watching the photographs.


Unfortunately these lies have effect, as the other make ups of Pallywood (fake deaths, injuries, electricity cut offs staged in videos or photoshoped).


Do you have evidence that this image was photoshoped? Besides, back before photoshop was common, I grew up watching Palestinian on TV throwing rocks at tanks.

It seems to me that when we want to defend Israel about Palestine or the U.S. about Iraq, we just don't want to see any images.

After all, it is a lot easier to dehumanize people when you don't see them.
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 04:05
It is very sorry that what I am about to say is pretty much the same thing that I said about 4 years ago in this forum.

The Palestinian-Isreali conflict is a terrible tragedy where violence begets more violence. Each attack from each side can be justified as retaliation from a former attack from the other side.

If the parties were equal, either Palestine or Israel could decide to be the bigger man and stop what is a warring feud.

However, the parties are not equal. Israel is the stronger party, and it would be in the best interest of Israel to stop the bloodbath. Also. considering one of the justifications for why Israel must exist is to have a safe haven for Jewish people in case of persecution, which I fully support, Israel has a moral obligation to avoid committing human rights violations, i.e. killing Palestinians.

Palestine is fully justified to retaliate violently against aggression. Unlike most people in the West, they actually get to see the death and bury them. And Hamas, as long as it retaliates, will enjoy enough support to stay in power because they are actually doing something about the deaths. This is a political reality.

My opinion is that Palestine would do better by avoiding violent retaliation from a strategic point of view. Quite simply, Israel can beat them. Israel has a lot more death power than Palestine. They may be rockets what they are shooting, but in military terms, they are rocks thrown to a tank.


So why are young people siding with Palestine? Because many young people today in the U.S. grew up learning about the horrible deaths and persecution of Jews in Germany in the 30s. They also grew up learning about legal segregation in the U.S. and apartheid. And they recently learned a lot about human right violations in Darfur. It doesn't take a lot of moral imagination to see the similarities between these and how the Israeli government treats Palestinians.
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 06:40
Originally posted by hugoestr

Do you have evidence that this image was photoshoped? Besides, back before photoshop was common, I grew up watching Palestinian on TV throwing rocks at tanks.

It seems to me that when we want to defend Israel about Palestine or the U.S. about Iraq, we just don't want to see any images.

After all, it is a lot easier to dehumanize people when you don't see them.


I didn't said that image was photoshoped, read again my post (I said it was not a spontanous but premeditated act to hit the tank with stones). I said about other images that have been presented by news agencies as showing hurted, killed Palestinians, as well as staged video reports.

To prove this, see just this article about staged photos of fake victims in the present conflict.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 06:53
Regarding the 'staging' of photographs that you claim is occurring Menumorut, I pose the following question: Are you proposing that young children are, on their own accord, posing in front of moving military vehicles pelting them with rocks in order to draw media attention to the political oppression of the Palestinian people? This seems unlikely.

It is indeed possible that photographers are coaxing youngsters to repeat the behaviour in order to get that shot, but this is most likely a pre-established behaviour rather than a unique creation of the photographer's imagination.

Regarding the primary topic of conversation I wish to ask Kevin what exactly he is asking in the original post. Are you curious about the uneducated criticism that seems popular or the phenomenon of targeting Israel for criticism in general? Do you think that it is unjust, or simply interesting?
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