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  Quote Socrates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Serbia’s Hungarian minority growing more frustrated
    Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 11:47

Now , its true- Serbia was under direct German occupation since 1941.And we were the only occupied country which didnt send  troops to fight allies(USSR) unlike Hungarians, Bosniaks, Croats,etc. Now that I mentioned Hungarians:

 Holocaust:The Extermination Camps

...The impact of the Holocaust varied from region to region, and from year to year in the 21 countries that were directly affected. Nowhere was the Holocaust more intense and sudden than in Hungary. What took place over several years in Germany occurred over 16 weeks in Hungary. Entering the war as a German ally, Hungary had persecuted its Jews but not permitted their deportation. After Germany invaded Hungary on March 19, 1944, this situation changed dramatically. By mid-April the Nazis had confined Jews to ghettos. On May 15, deportations began, and over the next 55 days, the Nazis deported some 438,000 Jews from Hungary to Auschwitz on 147 trains.         Copyright 1994-2002 Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc.

 Professor Helen Fein:Accounting for Genocide: :"[Already] by June 1941, signs on public establishments [in Nazi Independent State of Croatia] read, NO SERBS, JEWS, NOMADS, AND DOGS ALLOWED. She clearly states:"...Nonpartisan sources agree that mass genocide was authorized by the state of Croatia. They concur the state instigated, planned, and executed masses against the Serbian Orthodox minority ...and that the Catholic clergy approved, led, or failed to denounce these massacres.

Michael R. Marrus: "The Holocaust in History"

...:"The overall level of violence was highest in Croatia, where Pavelic's Ustasha movement devised the most thoroughly totalitarian state of any satellite and pursued a merciless, bloody assault on the country's two million Serbs..."

Major Richard L. Felman
He was one of more than 500 American Airmen rescued by the Serbs during WWII says: "Many Serbs risked their lives during World War II to save countless Jews from Nazi death camps. This is something we can never forget and for which I and The Jewish People will always be grateful."

Only a handful of Serbs colaborated with the Germans-our people never agreed(UNLIKE SOME) to be a part Third Reich, pure race,Aryans or any other absurde organization...>>

"Yugoslavia: History: History of Serbia:Modern Serbia:Revolution and the antifascist struggle"

Following the German-Austrian Anschluss of 1938, the Yugoslav government attempted strenuously to sustain a position of independence while being pressured to ally itself ever more closely with Germany. When, on March 25, 1941, the regents succumbed to Axis pressure and signed the Tripartite Pact, the news was greeted by demonstrations of protest, especially in Belgrade. On March 27 the regency was replaced in a coup headed by senior officers, who declared the majority of Prince Peter and repudiated the pact. Belgrade was immediately bombarded and the country invaded by Germany and its allies. _ Copyright 1994-2002 Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc

 



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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 11:55
Most of what you've posted there is all true, actually.

I have no idea why this woman talks about the
Roman Catholic clergy "approving, leading, or failing
to denounce" the massacres. It should say "and", it's
very clear all three took place.

I forgot the town where the memorial is, it's near
Banja Luka (Bosnia) but it's not in Banja Luka.
Anyhow, it's about a Roman Catholic Priest or
Franciscan Monk or whatever who killed the local
Serbs himself with a knife. They reported he sang
while he was doing it, never missed a beat, bla bla
bla. Pope Jean Paul visited his grave, which - as you
can imagine - was like a nuclear bomb going off
here.
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  Quote Socrates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 11:57

Originally posted by Mila

So now your arguement has changed to... what?

Croats killed more Serbs during WWII than Serbs
did?

If I'd known that's what you were talking about, since
you specifically said Jews to begin with, I wouldn't
have protested.

EDIT: RE the last quote. So you've got a site that
says the Germans did it, I've got one that says the
Serbs did it. If you think those sites prove either of us
right, you're sadly mistaken.

Croats killed more Serbs during WWII than Serbs
did? 
Truly pathetic.

 I'm not ''sadly mistaken'' about anything...Read my quotes carefully.I'm using valid historical sources that could be easily traced down.This is interesting:

Have you ever wondered why Bosnia never officially accused Croatia of aggression for attacking it as it has done with Yugoslavia? What do Bosnian Moslem's people say about this: "Izetbegovic was Pavelic's soldier in last war !!!" Comment of a Muslim reader from Bosnia (November 2000)



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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 12:08
I agree it's truly pathetic, that's why it's not an
arguement I made. Though your response seems to
suggest thats what you think we were originally
discussing?

Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia have
reconciled. Croatia and Serbia agreed to kill the
Muslims and split Bosnia in half between them
before the Serbs ever invaded Slovenia in 1991.

When the war spread to Croatia, and Dubrovnik was
held under siege by the air force, the navy, and
ground forces - the deal was off. Croatia barely
managed to get back on its feet, with 3/4 of its
territory occupied by Serbs for the duration of the war.

During the war in Croatia, in 1991, several
Herzegovinian villages were massacred - the first
victims of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina, long
before Suada Dilberovic and Olga Sucic were shot
by Serbian snipers on April 6, 1992, in Sarajevo.
Croatia smuggled some of the few weapons it had
to Bosnian Croats and Bosniaks.

Bosnian Croats and Bosniaks committed crimes
against each other, both without at least public
support from their leaders. There were camps and
executions and everything else but not on a large
scale.

Public support for the HVO dropped in Croatia proper
when reports of massacres of Bosniaks became
public - unlike in Serbia, where Milosevic's support
grew every time foreign media revealed a new camp
or a new massacre.

The Lightning Operation in 1995 liberated a vast
area of northwest Bosnia and Herzegovina, areas
like Bihac - with practically NO Croats. Croatian
soldiers risked their lives to save Muslim towns and
cities from a Serbian siege that had dragged on for
years.

Originally the Lightning Operation was intended to
evict all Serbs from the whole of Bosnia and
Herzegovina, but the Croatian forces stopped - why,
we don't know.

So we've done bad things to each other, but it was
not an organized, intentional campaign of genocide -
not only of the people but of their national
monuments and any visible evidence of existence as
well - as it was with Serbia.

Furthermore, the Croatians acknowledge what took
place between us. They don't show up at Srebrenica
memorials to wave Serbian flags and shout "We
f--ked your mother in Srebrenica!" to orphans. They
don't carry around Muslim coffins in protests
decorated with signs saying, "Waiting for you!"

Stipe Mesic has visited the Tuzla Memorial, the
Potocari Cemetery, the Visegrad Memorial, the
Markale Market memorial - all these things.

We have a good relationship.

Meanwhile, our lawsuit against Serbia for
compensation for the genocide begins next month
and legal analysts in the United States said, "It's
Bosnia's to lose. They've got it for sure."
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  Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 15:13
Originally posted by Zagros

Originally posted by Mila

Originally posted by Socrates

Originally posted by Surbel

 Mila,your hole posting  on  this  topic  is  a  one  big  joke!

  U should get used to it.She tried to forge some more of  Serbian history by stating that Serbs killed more Jews then Croats did in WWII!! After I proved her wrong, she made no further comments...



What are you talking about? If I made no farther comments it was because your rebuttals were repetitive and wrong.

http://www.yadvashem.org

You can browse through the list of names if you want, but it's easier to just call them.

19,800 Jews were killed in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, then the NDH.

32,000 were killed in Serbia and Montenegro.

It is a known fact, that the Croats and Muslims formed Waffen SS extermination squads under the Nazis while Serbs did no such thing.  By the logic that you use, if Croat or Bsonian death squads killed some Jews in Serbia then they will form part of that 32,000 killed in S&M and thus you blame the Serbs by implication, which seems to suit your agenda here.  What matter is who did the killing, not so much where they occured...

 



the hanzar divison never had widespread support and it disbanded very soon after its formation with many of its members joining the partizani

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  Quote Surbel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 15:28

  Ill'teknique if this story is not so tragic your posting will be patetic



HIMMLER WAS THEIR DEFENDER

 

The above headline appeared in Sarajevo Muslim's weekly magazine, "Svijet". The original, "Bosnian" language headline was "Himmler ih je stitio."

The series of articles about this dark period of Bosnian Muslim's WWII history was printed on: Oct. 26, Nov. 2, Nov. 9, Nov. 16 and Nov. 23. of 1997. I got my hands on Nov 2, Nov. 16 and Nov. 23 issues. The articles will eventually be scanned, translated into English and posted to this site. For now, I'll just present you with the photos printed in the three issues above. 

Above left: 
Fez which was a part of "Handzar" division's uniform is completely same as the one Bosnian soldiers wore in Austro-Hungarian military. Only the amblems were changed. The photo shows the "Feldgaru" jacket with amblems on the collar, and camouflage uniform "Tarnhemd"

Commander of the "Handzar" division. SS-brigadier general Karl-Gustav Sauberzweig also was required to wear the same fez.

Defile of "Handzar" division

Officers of the division introduce themselves to the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem

 

On 10th of February of 1943 Hitler gave a "green light" for creation of the division made up of Bosnian Muslims, whose main purpose would be fighting Tito's partisans in Bosnia. On 13th of Feb. Himmler gave an order to SS Gruppenfuhrer (division-level general) Arthur Phelps, commanding officer of the "Prinz Eugen" SS division, which consisted of Yugoslavian folksdojcers, to immediately start recruiting. 

 

SS Divisions:

SS-Panzer division "Viking"
Made up of Germans and Nordic volunteers
Logo: Sun in an image of swastika.

SS-Volunteer mountain division "Prinz Eugen". Made up of folksdojcers from Serbia and Croatia.

SS-volunteer panzer division "Nordland", formed out of remainder of Danish, Norwegian and Holland legions. Logo: Swastika in a circle.

SS-mountain division "Handschar", consisted of Balkan folksdojcers and Muslims of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Logo: "handzar" (sword).

SS Infantry division "Galicia". Formed in 1943 from Ukranians from Galicia and Rutenia (under-karpatian Ukraine) and "Reich"-Germans.

SS Infantry division "Letland". Formed in the beginning of 1944. Consisted of Letonians and Baltic Germans.

SS Infantry diviosion "Latvia". Formed in 1944. Made up of Letonian and folksdojcers.

SS Infantry division "Estland". Formed in 1944. Made up of Estonians and folksdojcers. Logo" Letter "E" and a sword.

SS Mountain division "Skenderbeg". Formed in 1944. Made up of Albanians. Logo: two-headed Albanian eagle.

Branko Slavini (in uniform) and Kasim Silajdzic, two Bosnian soldier who deserted 16th September. Before them, Kazimir Silajatovic also deserted.

High-school grounds, a home of 240 Bosnian soldiers of 13. SS engineering batallion 14. August 1943 

Bosnian volunteer hanging a picture of Grand Mufti of Jerusalem
A group of Muslim volunteers of "Handzar" division. All wear fez caps. Logos are skull with crossed bones and SS eagle. Fez was worn by the Muslim soldiers and their German officers alike. There were different models of fez in different colors (green, red, with or without the tail). The uniform collars had a curved sword and swastika engraved on them.
Foreigners in Waffen SS (Balkan and Centr. Europe)

Slovenians 6,000
Albanians 4,000
Serbs 4,000
Bosnians 20,000
Greeks 1,000
Czech 5,000
Hungarians 40,000
Bulgarians 3,000
Rumanians 5,000

Special armed formations of fascist Germany (Waffen-SS) until the end of war created all together 38 divisions, 18 of which were staffed by pure German and 20 by foreigners. Among them was a "Handzar" division staffed by Bosnians, claims the French magazine "Istoria" (Number 32, year 1973.). 

[Note by the Srpska Mreza webmaster: The Serbs in the table above were not the Serbs at all, it was the Germans living in Serbia's province of Vojvodina, which used to belong the pre-WWI Austro-Hungary.]

In Bosnian mountains. The "Handzar" division was trained and armed as a mountain formation.

Himmler: "Muslims responded to the call of Muslim heads and joined our side because of their hatred of our joint Jewish-English-Bolshevik enemies, and because of their belief and respect for the one we place above all -- towards Fuhrer."



SS Reichsfuhrer Heinrich Himmler and SS Brigadefuhrer Karl G. Sauberzweig examining "Handzar" division.

On the fez, on the left side, mountaineer division wore a flower.


GETTING READY TO FIGHT THE PARTISANS:
Soldiers of the "Handzar" division
IN BOSNIAN MOUNTAINS: 
During the 1944 fight.
When your heart is empty,your
mind is worth nothing.
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  Quote Jay. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 16:22
Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava
Only Unity Can Save the Serb
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  Quote merced12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 17:53
greter serbia to nano serbia
http://www.turks.org.uk/
16th century world;
Ottomans all Roman orients
Safavids in Persia
Babur in india
`azerbaycan bayragini karabagdan asacagim``
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  Quote Jay. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 18:39
Originally posted by Mila

I agree it's truly pathetic, that's why it's not an
arguement I made. Though your response seems to
suggest thats what you think we were originally
discussing?

Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia have
reconciled. Croatia and Serbia agreed to kill the
Muslims and split Bosnia in half between them
before the Serbs ever invaded Slovenia in 1991.

When the war spread to Croatia, and Dubrovnik was
held under siege by the air force, the navy, and
ground forces - the deal was off. Croatia barely
managed to get back on its feet, with 3/4 of its
territory occupied by Serbs for the duration of the war.

During the war in Croatia, in 1991, several
Herzegovinian villages were massacred - the first
victims of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina, long
before Suada Dilberovic and Olga Sucic were shot
by Serbian snipers on April 6, 1992, in Sarajevo.
Croatia smuggled some of the few weapons it had
to Bosnian Croats and Bosniaks.

Bosnian Croats and Bosniaks committed crimes
against each other, both without at least public
support from their leaders. There were camps and
executions and everything else but not on a large
scale.

Public support for the HVO dropped in Croatia proper
when reports of massacres of Bosniaks became
public - unlike in Serbia, where Milosevic's support
grew every time foreign media revealed a new camp
or a new massacre.

The Lightning Operation in 1995 liberated a vast
area of northwest Bosnia and Herzegovina, areas
like Bihac - with practically NO Croats. Croatian
soldiers risked their lives to save Muslim towns and
cities from a Serbian siege that had dragged on for
years.

Originally the Lightning Operation was intended to
evict all Serbs from the whole of Bosnia and
Herzegovina, but the Croatian forces stopped - why,
we don't know.

So we've done bad things to each other, but it was
not an organized, intentional campaign of genocide -
not only of the people but of their national
monuments and any visible evidence of existence as
well - as it was with Serbia.

Furthermore, the Croatians acknowledge what took
place between us. They don't show up at Srebrenica
memorials to wave Serbian flags and shout "We
f--ked your mother in Srebrenica!" to orphans. They
don't carry around Muslim coffins in protests
decorated with signs saying, "Waiting for you!"

Stipe Mesic has visited the Tuzla Memorial, the
Potocari Cemetery, the Visegrad Memorial, the
Markale Market memorial - all these things.

We have a good relationship.

Meanwhile, our lawsuit against Serbia for
compensation for the genocide begins next month
and legal analysts in the United States said, "It's
Bosnia's to lose. They've got it for sure."


You're forgetting that Bosnian Muslims and Croatians were in Ustache together....Then, some of them went to join Partizans.
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  Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 00:08
Originally posted by merced12

greter serbia to nano serbia


lol

ne haber kardes
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  Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 00:12
you really havent understood what i tried to tell you

the attrocities commited by the hanzar divison where limited to up to three hundred members

the group was very unpopular

the group had very low morale and support

it collapsed within a short time as splintering groups left it and joined the partizani

i dont understand how you can't get that through your head

but then again  you seem like the person that is more common with seeing CCCC all over the damn place too
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  Quote Socrates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 08:57

Originally posted by merced12

greter serbia to nano serbia

Yes ,good old insults come handy in the absence of any contra-arguments.Write some other stuff- feel free-relieve yourself...but facts shall remain facts no matter what... 

Btw, ill teqnique, I do not consider all Bosniaks and Croats as Ustasha's since I happen to know a few...



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  Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 19:47
Originally posted by Socrates

Originally posted by merced12

greter serbia to nano serbia

Yes ,good old insults come handy in the absence of any contra-arguments.Write some other stuff- feel free-relieve yourself...but facts shall remain facts no matter what... 

Btw, ill teqnique, I do not consider all Bosniaks and Croats as Ustasha's since I happen to know a few...




some people confuse the word after hanzar

ok divsion and brigade and army are three different things
the hanzar group is or was a division a division is not a brigade nor an army its a limited amount of men and like i said its factual information that states that only about three hundred commited any kind of attrocities and the group itself disbanded rather quick it is not revelant in the grander scheme of thinks in the balkan portion of WWII.
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  Quote Death Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 15:12
So i see that all of the troubleing topics are here already.
Not so long ago i was talking to  a close friend of mine,we discused the wars that Serbia has gone trough and he said something like"If its war then its war",he was thinking about an all out war,no hold bars.See here, he is a Bosnian,a grandson of a "Bosnian colonist"(Serb) in Vojvodina,no disrispect,i love that guy like a brother,but there is a mater of saying it and doing it,and a mater of viciosness and tolerance.
You know how hitler said that in every Germna soldier there needs to be awaken the Hun,.....well,the Germans are just Germans!
I on the other hand think of peace tho i have a lot of reasons to think otherwise.I agree with the Serbs in alot of things as i posible would agree with the mayority here,nevermind the nationality or religion,i can say that im preety tolerant, but man i feel that there is something hidden in me,something savage,and i pray to God that it doesnt come out ever.
The sobject yes,i cant speak for all of Hungarians here,nor can Kasa(the self proclamed leader or for that mater any other Magyar leader here).Lett me tell you one thing, that same Kasa was siting with all the Serbians nationalists,Milosevic,Seselj,....and he is suspicious to me in a sense of faul buissenes,you know what i mean.
So, if you are by nature intolerant,as most of the Balkan peiople is-and i dont mean no disrespect,that is just the way you are and i have learned to live with it/you, then you would find trouble even if its not there.
Ok Hungarians have a little trouble in Serbia, but then,they/we have that same trouble in Romania,Slovakia,Moldavia.
There will come a time when whole of Europe will be united and letts not push it,ok
You dont want a 200 pounds mad Hun on your head(i picked this word,and im jokeing about this last thing here but not in its entirety) if you are not willing to go all the way,and as i see this modern history of this region,none of you/us are willing to go there.
I think that this was tolerant.
Ready when you are miss.And please people stop with the hattred(You should or we would or 500 years,we have a future and i see it together)
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  Quote Socrates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 08:46

Originally posted by Death

So i see that all of the troubleing topics are here already.
Not so long ago i was talking to  a close friend of mine,we discused the wars that Serbia has gone trough and he said something like"If its war then its war",he was thinking about an all out war,no hold bars.See here, he is a Bosnian,a grandson of a "Bosnian colonist"(Serb) in Vojvodina,no disrispect,i love that guy like a brother,but there is a mater of saying it and doing it,and a mater of viciosness and tolerance.
You know how hitler said that in every Germna soldier there needs to be awaken the Hun,.....well,the Germans are just Germans!
I on the other hand think of peace tho i have a lot of reasons to think otherwise.I agree with the Serbs in alot of things as i posible would agree with the mayority here,nevermind the nationality or religion,i can say that im preety tolerant, but man i feel that there is something hidden in me,something savage,and i pray to God that it doesnt come out ever.
The sobject yes,i cant speak for all of Hungarians here,nor can Kasa(the self proclamed leader or for that mater any other Magyar leader here).Lett me tell you one thing, that same Kasa was siting with all the Serbians nationalists,Milosevic,Seselj,....and he is suspicious to me in a sense of faul buissenes,you know what i mean.
So, if you are by nature intolerant,as most of the Balkan peiople is-and i dont mean no disrespect,that is just the way you are and i have learned to live with it/you, then you would find trouble even if its not there.
Ok Hungarians have a little trouble in Serbia, but then,they/we have that same trouble in Romania,Slovakia,Moldavia.
There will come a time when whole of Europe will be united and letts not push it,ok
You dont want a 200 pounds mad Hun on your head(i picked this word,and im jokeing about this last thing here but not in its entirety) if you are not willing to go all the way,and as i see this modern history of this region,none of you/us are willing to go there.
I think that this was tolerant.
Ready when you are miss.And please people stop with the hattred(You should or we would or 500 years,we have a future and i see it together)

Bravo, Madjar!(so, u're a magyar after all-nevermind the question on the previous thread).

That part about the savage waiting inside-spot on-majority(very, very large majority) of humans are like that.

U're right about that Kasa guy-he practically owns the city of Horgosh, and he did get very rich during the time of milosevic and co.As for those incindents-i think the situation between serbs and magyars isn't that serious-i already mentioned a few times-just look at the no. of mixed marriages.However, i hope everything works out - and yes we need to get these slimeballs off the power...they're getting on my nerves ...

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  Quote Jay. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 13:21
Well said, Death
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  Quote krios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2006 at 10:54
Hungarians and Austrians still suffer because of loss of their great empire because of Serbia.... thats it. No chance Vojvodina will become problem since there is big Serb majority. And for all those that says serbs wanted to erase all minorities .... I will ask you why there are still 13 official minorities in Serbia and why sandzak muslims were not erased or killed in last balkan wars. If serbs wanted to erase muslims in bosnia why didnt they start with muslims in Serbia ?

A lot of BS is here.... mainly from some muslim poor minded people who want to try and make serbians ugly as hell and demonize. All balkan nationalities have a lot of blood on their hands ... and  ten times more serbs were killed and displaced on balkans in 20th century than all others together ! 
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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2006 at 14:39
Originally posted by krios

and  ten times more serbs were killed and displaced on balkans in 20th century than all others together ! 


That's not possible. There would be none left.
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  Quote Richard XIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2006 at 04:29
Romania - Hungary relations. There is no real problem.


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Samurai
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Joined: 12-Apr-2006
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Posts: 132
  Quote Death Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2006 at 23:23
Yeah yeah,if i was more hot tempered or even Balkanian i would go into a argument with my Romanian friend but i aint gona.Mila baby,dont worry about  "the hungarian minority" in Vojvodina.These guys have me here,you wouldnt like me talking about Bosnia....Who cares?Do you care Mila?

Slovenian dude,Austro-Hungary disbanded because of Serbia?If you love Serbs so much why dont you marry them.(Au bokte molovo pa ti si gori od Krajisnika, mi to zovemo cetnicke mame,.....bice da je to u pitanju,...lol)

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