Serbia’s Hungarian minority growing more frustrated
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Topic: Serbia’s Hungarian minority growing more frustrated
Posted By: Mila
Subject: Serbia’s Hungarian minority growing more frustrated
Date Posted: 10-Jan-2006 at 20:30
|
I remember a story a few months ago in which the Hungarian government
said they would not rule out military intervention to protect ethnic
Hungarian civilians in Serbia's northern province, Vojvodina. They threatened to bring Serbia and Montenegro before the United Nations if appropriate steps weren't taken, but the violence subsided. Now it's back and the leader in the region is pissed again: The leader of the Hungarian minority in Vojvodina Jozef Kasa stated:" The Serb police is not sufficiently active - again!" Kasa backed his statement with the information about a nationalistic incident in the village Torda, municipality of Žitište, Vojvodina, which occured at Christmas (celebrated according to the Gregorian calendar). "Reasonable people have started to believe that Vojvodina Hungarians can forget the word "hate crime" but this latest incident is a new warning that not everything is all right between the minorities and the majority in Serbia-Montenegro" said Kasa for Hungarian informative site Vajdasag.ma According to Vajdasag, in a local club in Torda, a group of youngsters from the nearby village of Cestereg shouted "This is Serbia" and demanded violently that instead of playing songs in English and Hungarian, only songs in Serbian be played. The police removed them from the club, but they continued with nationalistic and hate shouting in the village square. Police noted down this incident only as "disturbance of public peace". Incidents of this sort, as well as the statements that one of the leading figures in the Serb Radical Party ultranationalist Tomislav Nikolić gave for the press just harm the peace between Serbia-Montenegro and all its neighbors. Nikolic said:"I tell Ratko Mladić and Radovan Karadžić not to give themselves up alive. I tell them that they can not go to Hague, and if police come to their doors, they should kill themselves." If they negotiate, their "reputation" and "reputation" of Serbia-Montenegro will be ruined. "The question is why it took them then 10 years to reach Hague. It is immoral for them to go there voluntarily, and it is anti-Serbian for them to get there as arrested men. If they get caught, they should kill themselves." "Because if they are caught, if that Serbian myth is destroyed, they know what they have to do." Nikolić said for Beta, later published AFP. Nikolić is acting president of SRS (Srpske radikalne stranke) instead of Vojislav Šešelj, currently on trial in the Hague at ICTY for war crimes. It goes on and on about Bosnia and Croatia, but that's fine - this is about Hungarians this time. Any Hungarians here have anything from the media in their country to share? ------------- |
Replies:
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 10-Jan-2006 at 23:27
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Is Vojvodina Another Kosovo?
Carl Savich
May 30, 2005
Introduction: Vojvodina: The Next Kosovo? There has been alarmist rhetoric about Vojvodina becoming the next Kosovo. In 2004, there were many manufactured propaganda incidents a la the Racak Massacre that appeared to presage another Kosovo conflict. Is there any truth to these claims? What is the history of Vojvodina? And is there a racist, ethnically-based Greater Hungary movement in Vojvodina that parallels the Greater Albania ideology in Kosovo? Is Vojvodina another Kosovo? Is Vojvodina the next Kosovo? In his article “Vojvodina: A Hungarian View”, in the July 28, 2004 Balkanalysis, Laszly Zuldi, a Hungarian journalist from Budapest, presented the Hungarian view on Vojvodina, arguing in alarmist tones of “a time bomb” that would create “a Hungarian Kosovo”. But is this an accurate assessment of what is going on in Vojvodina? Is the Kosovo analogy, the paradigm of Vojvodina as the “Hungarian Kosovo”, an accurate one? What happened in Kosovo? Albanian separatists/secessionists launched a US/NATO-sanctioned terrorist war to create a Greater Albania, an independent Kosova. This illegal separatist movement was based on US government and media manufactured propaganda that falsely alleged that a “genocide” was occurring in Kosovo. This lie was used to illegally bypass the UN and all customs and conventions of international law. Is this what Zuldi is predicting for Vojvodina? If we follow the Kosovo analogy, Zuldi is predicting a Kosovo-like separatist/secessionist conflict where Vojvodina would become an independent state like the proposed “Kosova”. A manufactured lie would serve as the pretext for US/EU/NATO “humanitarian intervention” to create a Greater Hungary. Like in an independent Kosova cleansed of all Serbs, Roma, and Jews, all non-Hungarians would arguably be driven out to create a Hungarian ethnic majority. The new “independent” state would be called Delvidek. Is this what Zuldi has in mind? And if so, why should the US or Hungary be supporting such a genocidal Greater Hungary? Why should anyone support such a racist and genocidal policy to create a “Hungarian Kosovo”? Zuldi noted that Vojvodina is “one of the most multi-ethnic regions in Europe” but he failed to mention that Serbs make up the overwhelming majority of Vojvodina at 65%. As is typical of the New World Order “democrats” and “humanitarians”, nothing is said about the “majority” population and what they think, if they are hostile to US interests. In a democracy, the majority decides, not a 15% minority, such as the Hungarian population of Vojvodina. The Hungarian minority doesn’t have the population numbers. In fact, the Hungarian population is declining. The solution for US policy is to negate the will of the majority population. This is what US policy did in the Kosovo conflict. The will of the majority population of Yugoslavia was discounted and ignored. All that mattered was the will of the Albanian minority population. But this was cleverly inverted and manipulated and convoluted by US propaganda. Instead of relying on the will of the majority of Yugoslavia population, US policy relied on the will of the “majority” Albanian population in the province of Kosovo-Metohija. This reduces democracy to the point of absurdity. It reduces democracy to meaninglessness. It also demonstrates how phony and hollow democracy truly is. “Democracy” is purely a US propaganda construct with no real world application at all. It is a nice sounding word with absolutely no practical meaning whatsoever. The Kosovo conflict demonstrated this obvious fact very clearly. In “Analysis: Vojvodina, the Hungarian Kosovo,” UPI, October 11, 2002, Sam Vaknin argued that Vojvodina was indeed “the Hungarian Kosovo”. But isn’t this just alarmist rhetoric, and inaccurate to boot? Vaknin focused on the issue of “autonomy”. But autonomy is a red herring. Adolf Hitler too supported the “autonomy” of Vojvodina, as did the Communist dictator Josip Broz Tito, and then NATO. Why? They all understood that “autonomy” would amputate Serbian territory and ultimately destroy Serbian territorial integrity and allow “Western” penetration of the Balkan region. The whole “autonomy” issue is a disingenuous game. It is a debate imposed on the Vojvodina issue arbitrarily and artificially. It is perceived as a way to defeat or destroy Serbia by other means, by a creeping secessionism or separatism. Autonomy is just another concept for dismemberment, secession, separatism, and “Balkanization”. Moreover, these analysts conveniently forget that the whole “autonomy” nonsense is an atavistic holdover from the Leninist/Stalinist/Titoist/Communist/Bolshevik era. The concept of “autonomy” is Leninistic and Stalinistic, a failed and discredited Communist way to solve the nationalities problem. Zuldi noted that Serbs driven out or “ethnically cleansed” from Kosovo, the Krajina, Croatia, and Bosnia-Hercegovina, have been forced to settle in Vojvodina as displaced refugees. He refers to them euphemistically as “unhappy immigrants”. Vaknin terms this an “invasion” of Vojvodina. But did these Serbs, ethnically cleansed under the very noses of the “international community”, make a choice to settle in Vojvodina? Wasn’t the US-sponsored ethnic cleansing of the Serbian Krajina the reason for the influx or “invasion” by the “unhappy immigrants”? But who is to blame for these refugees? Is the Serbian government in Belgrade to blame or the US and NATO? Didn’t the US/NATO/EU/UN create the refugee problem in Vojvodina by allowing Albanian extremists to ethnically cleanse and force out over 200,000 Kosovo Serbs, Jews, Roma, and Sinti? Why are Zuldi and Vaknin blaming the victims? Why not blame the US/NATO/EU/UN, who are responsible for the creation of an ethnically pure Kosova? Zuldi tries unsuccessfully to make it appear like the intolerance is one-sided, only Serbs attacking Hungarians. But then he mentioned that in June, 2004, five Hungarian youths in Vojvodina attacked and severely beat an ethnic Serb in Temerin, only because he was a Serb. It was an ethnically motivated attack, a racist hate crime by the Hungarian minority against the Serbian majority population. But, of course, it was only a retaliatory attack; the Hungarians were merely defending themselves. Zuldi is a propagandist, constructing very simplistic black and white scenarios with only the Hungarians as victims. As a fallback device, he rationalizes and justifies racist attacks by Hungarians against Serbs as retaliation and defensive in nature. But that is just a trick of the propagandist too. It is the victimization scenario. Only Hungarians are ever victims, and only Serbs are ever perpetrators or aggressors. The US and Hungary as well as the EU seek to use the Vojvodina issue to blackmail Serbia and Montenegro. Zuldi wrote that “new EU member Hungary could make life difficult for the Serbs.” He is referring to efforts by Hungary to manipulate and extort and blackmail Serbia and Montenegro in seeking to join the EU and other European bodies. But isn’t this a reckless and arrogant foreign interference in the affairs of a sovereign state? Hungarian President Ferenc Madl and Foreign Minister Laszlo Kovacs even accused the Serbian government of committing “atrocities” against the Hungarian minority in 2004. Zuldi neglects the fascist and Nazi history of the Greater Hungary ideology and movement. The whole “autonomy” issue in Vojvodina or Delvidek has its roots and origins during World War II and the Holocaust period. In Tanjug’s October 28, 2004 article “Szeged’s 64 Counties Leader Banned from Entering Country”, described how Laszlo Toroczkai, a journalist and youth movement leader from Szeged in southern Hungary along with Kornel Kiss and Zerg Zagyva, co-organized a rock concert with “Nazi and Greater Hungarian scenography”. The concert was held in Mali Idjos outside of Subotica on October 23. They wore black T-shirts signed Delvidek and promoted the Greater Hungary ideology. The reference to “64 counties” alludes to the counties that made up Greater Hungary in the Austro-Hungarian period, reaching 64 counties, or varmegye, castle or fortress counties, in 1876. Predictably, this neo-Nazi and neo-fascist event was censored and suppressed in the Western media. There was no analysis by IWPR or RFE/RL or ICG or the New York Times or Washington Post. This neo-Nazi resurgence in Vojvodina was “slow news” to be suppressed and covered-up. more on the link below.. http://news.suc.org/bydate/2005/May_30/11.htm Mila,many stories like this you can find on the web,but is obviesly wich side you choose! I'm not defending crime from Serbian side. But with your approach,i can only came to conclusion that you get paid for all that.Try with...Honvedi,H ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 03:48
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Well, Kosova was a timebomb long before the UCK was formed. I was there
and I have some idea of what was going on in that territory under the
Milosevic and Arkan administration. Kosova was the first Yugoslavian
territory having problems with Serbian revisionism and it was for long
a cage where life for the majority of the people (ethnic Albanians) was
virtually impossible: a daily nightmare. True that there was no massive
ethnic cleansing before the UCK attacks but it's also true that Arkan
death squads acted impunely from the very center of Prishtina, killing
many and that the nonviolent struggle of Kosovars met with the
indiference of both Serbian and international public opinon (though
it's also true that at that time Serbian media were heavily biased and
government controlled and didn't inform much). Said that, the inccident reported by Mila reminds me to something I saw with my own eyes while in a Hungarian town of Vojvodina 8whose name I can't recall) in the winter of 1992. We arrived at the town tavern, which was our meeting point there, as we were going to interview the major, a signficative politcal figure among Hungarians of Vojvodina. It happened that it was the birthday of the owner of the tavern and he was totally drunk celebrating. While we were waiting and having a good time, the bar owner, in an impulse took out the compulsory electoral poster of Slovodan Milosevic. Some time later two tall guys, apparently ethnic Serbians appeared in the bar and placed it (or a copy, can't recall) again in the wall, not without some discussion. After they left, only then, the bar owner, took away the poster and tore it apart in a rage attack even biting pieces of it. It was quite impressive and disturbing that two guys could force the placing of a political poster in a private local. But it was no surprise: our Serbian friends of Belgrade (a nice city, btw with some very inteligent and daring people) had us well informed of the pitiful situation under Milosevic's regime and some of its most striking manifestations. Said that, I doubt that Vojvodina could be another Kosova, mostly because Hungarians are a minority and not the majority of the province. True that they demand the creation of a properly Hungarian province in a smaller territory but I doubt it will ever happen. Still I hope that the multicultural and rather progressive Vojvodina province can get its own police forces and that can help to restore security in the area for all. There's no need for redneck Serbian fascists to be causing any more trouble, I believe. As a sidenote: Vojvodina was the feud assignated to Seselji's militias in the power arrangements between Milosevic and the Serbian fascists. I have been told by informed people in Belgrade that such arrangements implied that the personal bodyguard of Seselji was appointed directly by Milosevic, so in a graphic way, the Serbian president had always a gun pointing to the head of Seselji. Nice guys, aren't they?  ------------- 
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 05:45
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Those Serbs deserve again 500 years rule of Ottoman empire, it seems we didnt left there anything else then buildings but next time we will give them humanity, learn to respect nature and other nations btw basis lessions of Islam. ------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: cg rommel
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 10:25
| I just hope they leave us, and the Montenegrins that live in Vojvodina out of this.... |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 11:09
You boy deserve a little spanking. Maju notice this:" Serbia was never a fasict country". You are posting about situacion on Albania. Did you know,that TITO was setled after 1945 more then 200.000 Albanians on Kosovo. He's idea was to join the Albania with SFRJ . He suport the comunists in Greece. In 4years 1945-1949 they made souch problems wich they didn't resolve in next 40year's. You didn't ask yourself,why only Serbia had two autonomys and not even one other republic. It's a very simple question. In Serbia each worker had to pay 20% for non developed regions,all that money goes to Kosovo,can you count how much many is that? Each Albanian family had an avrige triple more kid's then other etnicity in SFRJ,if was so bad how is that possible? Some links: -http://www.kosovo.com/testimonies.html -http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1120887/posts ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 12:54
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I don't know if all your claims are true. Sadly Serbian historiography
has self-placed on the spot due to false or dubious claims, due to
placing nationalism over truth, so, as a precaution I don't believe
half of what they say to start with (I do that in many other cases,
particularly regarding the Balcans, where one-side-ism is a pandemic). Anyhow, I was talking about the Milosevician period, not the Titoist period. I know that in Tito's Yugslavia Kosova had a great autonomy though apparently not enough for Albanian claims, who demanded to become a republic like the other ethnies. But I also know that, under Milosevic, the autonomy was reduced to mere name, that ethnic Albanians were expelled from their jobs in the administration and even in the Albanian language TV (which broadcasted with a Montenegrine plaintiff who knew the language) and that political assasinations happened regularly. And all that without Albanians firing a single shot. I never saw children beggars in Belgrade then nor in any other part of Serbia, despite the economic difficulties of the war period (supermarkets depleted, black market everywhere, hyperinflation) but there was a swarm of them in Prishtina. I also know that Albanian nationalism, curiously enough was born in Kosova and not in Albania proper. Since the early 90s it was clear that the war of Kosova was a time bomb: all the process of Yugoslavian disintegration started there and couldn't finish without affecting Kosova as well. Things like they are, we like it or not. Guess you can still spit on the tomb of Tito but what you can't have is a homogeneous nation out of a multiethnic one, much less in a short period. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: cg rommel
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 13:01
| I think we should be talking about Hungarians, not Albanians.... |
Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 14:34
Lol, nice quoting froom the useless rhetoric of Carl Savich. The same man out to disprove that any proud Alb held belief is somehow wrong or distorted. How Mother Theresa was a vlach, how scanderbeg was a serb, how we massacred jews. Isnt he a writter for the nice and neutral Serbianna.com? 
Yea its unfair, if the distribution of wealth in Yugo was evenly distributed and Belgrade did not receive over 60% of all the revenue. Like how for instance Croatia's dalmatian coast contributed as a vast majority of all the tourist revenue but yet somehow Belgrade managed to see over 60% of it.
Your right. |
Posted By: YuGo
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 16:31
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Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 17:24
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Those Serbs deserve again 500 years rule of Ottoman empire
Ouch, thats tough.
|
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 18:11
Oh do it, YuGo. I'll be your Queen and feed you grapes all day. Because you know that's how life was Serbs back then. (In other news, Mila has changed her name to Grozna Hadzisavich) ------------- |
Posted By: cebeci
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 18:24
i think (my opinion) serbia is willing to be a peaceful country both interiorly and exteriorly, but unfortunately they contain dozens of foreign nations in their very minimized motherland. pitty for them. I think serbia will be losing parts of its territories even if nobody wants any more war  ------------- history is just a repetation of itself |
Posted By: cebeci
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 18:28
another 500 years wuldn't heal anything my countrymen , except for creating more rivals ------------- history is just a repetation of itself |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 18:32
It's obvious that you never lived in SFRJ. In all centralized countries money goes to capitol,why wasn't Zagreb the capitol? Didn't Serbs deside that not even Croats or anybody else,comunists did. At the beggining it was agriment,that the capitol city it's gonna chang each two years...all 'comi' special ideas. I can post many quality infos,but to discuss with pearson wich doesn't realise that the tourism wasn't even close developed like it's today in Dalmatia (i know,i live there). Yugo spend more then 60% for army,we lived in fear Soviets are gonna attack us. Now Vojvodina....search on web who is Horty,Honvedi... I'm not gonna quot Carl Savich any more,but you can read on web by Albanian Dr.Kaplan Resuli........he is not Serbian! Remember,CNN and google isn't everything on these world. I'm not saying what cind of politics Bush have these days,but my backyard i know better then you. ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Jay.
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 18:33
Who the  do you think you are? Keep those comments to yourself if you're going to say something as flawed as that. *Shakes my head*------------- Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava Only Unity Can Save the Serb |
Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 18:35
|
Dr.Kaplan Resuli........he is not Serbian
You mean Kaplan Resuli Burrovich? Lol, no I know his not a Serb. His "Macedonian" who got imprisoned in Albania and came out pissed. Scholar? Of what? For instance he claims that he was imprisoned for being anti-Alb, but he did not study Albanology until he was released from prison. Sorry, his not a scholar. He was actually a teacher in his past. Btw, the man was actually imprisoned for being a homosexual. Which was illegal in Albania at the time.
Anyway, I agree that we should focus on the Hungarian minority... |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 18:36
Cebeci,a good spirit is talking out of you. 
------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Jay.
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 18:41
|
Exactly, Surbel. Unlike "DayI", cececi is actaully saying something that would do good for his country. ------------- Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava Only Unity Can Save the Serb |
Posted By: GoldenBlood
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 20:34
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Surbel you have funny propaganda
Theodore ja ke qi nonen |
Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 06:59
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You know what Mila, u forgot to write how many Serbo-Hungarian marriages there are in Vojvodina...in some towns it goes as high as every third one is a mixed marriage.Says a lot, doesn't it?Yes, there were some incidents...One of them being when a (bosnian) Serbian driver ordered some Hungarian kids to speak Serbian...but the man was a refugee-he should be understood-he went through hell, had to leave his home and live where he never intended to...It's no justification, just clearing out some things.Anyway, many Hungarians r students in Belgrade...I didn't notice any problems whatsoever...Some gangster shootouts r also interpreted as 'ethnic related incidents' Btw, Serbian fascists are not alone -there's a Hungarian organization-64 Zhupanije(translation?)-they r propagating some pretty radical stuff...
|
Posted By: cg rommel
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 07:06
| All those fascist(or wahtever) groups (on both sides) should go to prison, and not come back for a while..... it would be much better for all..... |
Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 07:14
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I'm not sure I understand this.i know u're just a kid, but this is not a very nice thing to say-u're separating Serbs and Montenegrins although they're the same people...what does the good man from your avatar says about himself and his origin?He says loud and clear that he is Serbian.Btw-he's the greatest Montenegrin tht ever lived-every Montenegrin knows at least some of his verses by heart...The only problem about Serbia/Montenegro r the goverments-in serbia you have ultra-nationalist pathetics combined with leftovers of Milosevic's clique, and in Montenegro a bunch of mobsters propagating indepedence for their own causes-teir pm is wanted by the Italian police). Btw-I'm very fond of Montenegrins-they make great friends...Montenegrin jokes r the best... |
Posted By: cg rommel
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 07:40
|
Yes, the jokes are great..... But about the prime minister wanted by the italians, i dont believe much in that since that story only pops out in pro opposition newspapers about 3 months before elections, and about a week or two after the elections it fades away like it never existed......
at least you admit we exist.... And well, yes Njegos does state he's Serbian, but for him Christian Orthodox religion is Serbian, so maybe he meant that (  )... now i know my post is a little chaotic, but sorry i cant do better..... |
Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 08:09
We both know he means Serbian not Orthodox-he mentions Serbian dynasties and history as his own.
|
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 08:13
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Oh cg_rommel, don't bother.
Ours said his language was Serbian once and his language was Croatian twice. He referenced Slav and Dalmation as the ethnicity of his subjects and the only time he ever referenced anything more specific was when he said: "If a Dubrovcanin has a conflict with a BOSNJANIN, they should go before the Ban." And they still talk like he wrote books about how Bosnia is Serbia and we're all Serbs. ------------- |
Posted By: cg rommel
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 10:31
if i understood 5% of your post, kill me
|
Posted By: gerik
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 11:35
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First: Socrates I have no knowledge of any hungarian nazi organizations. The organization you mentioned probably "64 Vármegye Ifjúsági Mozgalom" (Sixty four Counties Youth Movement ) it is not a fascist organization at all as you wanna implie. Their webpage: http://www.hvim.hu/english/main.htm - http://www.hvim.hu/english/main.htm Second: You can't consider those events just like any incidents. Let put it more it straight: serbs have lost three recent war in Yugoslavia so they wanna take the revenge on their ethnic minorities like the hungarians of Vojvodina. That is not fair. The repression againts hungarians is existing in Serbia. It also has to be noted that serbian police have tolarated atrocities against hungarians. It is normal to you when a Hungary family leaves Vojvodina because they are constantly threatened with death? http://www.americanhungarianfederation.org/news_vojvodina.htm - http://www.americanhungarianfederation.org/news_vojvodina.ht m |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 11:42
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cg - Just joking about Kotromanic, but shhh... we
finally have someone from the Hungarian side! Gerik - Do you have any statistics, from the Hungarian point of view, about incidents in Vojvodina? Murders, rapes, beatings, etc - beyond the average intimidation. I've seen statistics from the Serbian side and they're really not that alarming given the population of Vojvodina, but they are alarming in that a people who make up less than 25% of the population make up more than (I think) 40% of the murder victims. It's really hard to find any information about this because Croatian and Bosnian media will not touch it. Because Serbs are constantly making claims to our territory, we're very careful not to equalize the status of independent republics, like Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, with Serbian provinces, like Vojvodina and Kosovo. If Vojvodina and Kosovo become independent, even to a lesser extent Montenegro, a lot of ignorent people around the world will think their legal status prior to independence was identical to that of Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, when in fact we entered Yugoslavia as separate republics and came out as the same republics. Even with Kosovo, which of course concerns Bosnia and Herzegovina more than Vojvodina, you'll find more stories on CNN than on all the papers in Bosnia combined. Vojvodina is even more distant. It seems a story has to make the international press before it even gets a brief at the back of Croatian and Bosnian papers. So yeah, if you're able to find any information - it doesn't matter how biased the source is as long as you tell us where its coming from, people can sort those things out for themselves - but just to have any statistics at all would be nice. ------------- |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 12:03
|
Are you kidding me? ------------- |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 13:33
------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 13:37
|
Mila,your hole posting on this topic is a one big joke!
------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 13:39
|
As someone said, we'll have to live our history all over again, unless we learn it. The recent cases of inter-ethnic ruffle in Vojvodina, Serbia's northern province, proved that point in a strangely precise way. U.S. Congressman Tom Lantos, obviously encouraged by the "excellent outcome" of Kosovo-Metohija agony where he, as some of his colleagues among US officials, even high-ranking ones (remember Albright and Holbrooke), was advocating the Serb-free, Albanianized "Kosova," took the next step in his pretty little nation-building tour in Europe's forgotten corner. In his letter to Serbia's Prime Minister Kostunica, written in an-offer-you-couldn't-refuse-style, Lantos begins: "I am deeply troubled by the alarming escalation of anti-Hungarian, anti-Semitic and anti-Roma violence that has taken place in Vojvodina recently. The enclosed chronology details incidents of harassment and physical violence against non-Serbs, threats against ethnic Hungarian and pro-autonomy advocates, desecration of cemeteries, and vandalism of historic symbols." ... Last spring (early June, if memory serves me right), in Novi Sad, Vojvodina's biggest town, the province's political and administrative center, an extremely unusual party took place. A group of Honved (Hungarian army during Horty's fascist regime in Hungary) veterans held a "memorial assembly." Bizarre as it was, their meeting was held inside the offices of a Magyar Szo, a state-funded daily newspaper in the Hungarian language. Therefore, the Nazi veterans had their fun at the expense of the taxpayers, mostly Serbs, the vast majority of Vojvodina. ...[A]fter the Nazi invasion in April 1941, the Kingdom of Yugoslavia was occupied either by German Nazis, or their puppet-states (Croatian Ustashes, Hungary, Mussolini's Italy, Bulgaria and "Greater Albania"). A great part of Vojvodina was invaded by fascist Hungary. Its army, the notorious Honveds, killed thousands of Serbs, Jews and Roma. Novi Sad was a stage of an outrageous massacre; in late January, 1942.. About 1400 people (more than 800 Jews, more than 500 Serbs, a smaller number of Roma, and even some antifascist Hungarians and Germans) were killed. Their bodies were thrown into the Danube River, by breaking its icy surface. Total numbers of killed in Novi Sad and it's wider area estimates to the number of four thousand people. The policy of "the Final Solution" for "inferior" Serbs, Jews and Roma was the common goal for all Nazi-installed regimes in Balkans. It took more than a million lives in Ustashes' "Independent State of Croatia," but Horty's fascists also did "their share." It should be remembered – but a merry gathering of a "nostalgic octogenarian," as some Hungarian politicians and intellectuals in Vojvodina advocated the Honveds' reunion at the crime scene, can hardly be considered as a best way to remember. Yes, it caused a great disturbance among Serbs in Vojvodina. Can anyone even imagine such a thing happening in, let's say, France? Norway? New Zealand? No way. ... The authorities (neither Serbia's nor Serbia-Montenegro's) did not show any sign of disapproval. Not to mention their duty to properly react to ANY provocation that can cause inter-ethnic turmoil. Of course, it takes a responsible, decision-making and patriotic government. Not an Empire's toy. Anyway, the fact that Serbia remained THE ONLY "multicultural" piece of ethnically-divided former Yugoslavia, with one-third of non-Serbian population, doesn't seem to mean a thing. Furthermore, no matter how eager, "cooperative" and infinitely compliant the local "government" is (even to members of Empire's Congress!?), the everlasting pariah-status is the best they get. As Mr. Malic well pointed: "After all, why would one be courteous to slaves, especially those who serve eagerly?" ~ B. Kozich, Serbia-Montenegrohttp://www.antiwar.com/letters/?articleid=3062 ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 13:43
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Nebojsa Malic replies: I remember seeing a report about the Honved reunion, and the appearance of pan-Hungarian fliers in May and June, but I didn't know about this wider context. Given that claims of "oppression" and "human rights violations" often precede Imperial military intervention, I'm inclined to believe that these claims are being orchestrated from the outside. But while certainly more appealing to the Empire for its public-relations potential, I don't think pan-Hungarian nationalism is the major threat to Serbia's northern province. Much worse are the "social-democrat" separatists led by Nenad Canak, a crass, unscrupulous statist who could have had a great career in yellow journalism. These are the "pro-autonomy" advocates Lantos is talking about. I would like to add that Lantos failed to secure support for his letter among the Hungarian caucus in the Congress, and that this letter – while perhaps representing the agenda of the Imperial policy-making establishment – does not speak for American Hungarians. If that is any consolation.------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: GoldenBlood
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 14:19
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hahaha propaganda again Dont forget Genocide for Hungarians in Vojvodina |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 15:22
Normaly,what doesn't enter in a small head is a propaganda. On the hole wide web you didn't find not even one site for your claim,so we gonna take your writing like from others disturbed pearsons wich they don't know how to accept the true. They know only how to provoce,attack and run away when it's time to face the true. ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 16:54
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You do know when the lord will come to Earth to judge us,don't you?Well,when the Balkans find peace...... ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 19:20
|
And there's no Serbian propaganda in Njegos's words- he simply says what people he belongs to - or is it propaganda if anyone declares himself as French, Austrian, German...Btw, some of the most radical Serbian nationalist were Montenegrins...And I don't mind their unsatisfaction with the current state of our land, it's the 'we're not serbs' stuff that's absurde-although they were separated for a few centuries from us, because of turks...We don't treat them differently then us- except for the jokes - which r mostly their own inventions!! And the statement there's no hung. fascists-not gonna fly...And nobody's repling about those mixed marriages...why do so many hung. women marry serbs, if we're such fascists and magyar-haters? |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 19:27
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forget ww2 Nazis, Hungary has one of the most prolific neo nazi movements in europe. ------------- |
Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 19:29
your languge skills r amazing...btw, what the (??!) r u talking about? i don't know if anybody mentioned but hungarian fascists killed serbs and jews during wwII-something denied by their representatives today-they say-yes there were some fascist squads, but they mainly fought outside of vojvodina??!! |
Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 19:47
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I'm aware of that."Aryans" r coming back(in public) in Germany, too.what's even frightening- they're present in Serbia, too...after Jasenovac and civilian slaughters- one wonders how is it even possble...When germans entered Belgrade in 1941-they were welcomed...by EMPTY STREETS something i'm very proud of(we don't like any kind of imposed authority or discipline...), while in Zagreb and Ljubljana they were welcomed as heroes with flowers and siegheils. Anyway, i have to admit,some of my favourite hist. persons r germans-Goethe,Schiller,Kant...And many germans showed mercy and sympathy during WWII- heard it from many resistant fighters in serbia... And I'll continue liking Szerelem from English Patient...one of the most beatiful songs I ever heard... |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 20:31
""Please stop you propaganda...albanians are unique race: dinaric and
alpin...but look you greeks are mis
albaniano-turks-sllav-hebrenj-bulgar... but greeks are mix people""For those cind it's easyer to push 20cm from behind then 1mm in the head. Everythig wich doesn't fit with his small and shallow mind is propaganda. You act like someone from Herzegovina,so i have a gift for you from a Chatolic Encyclopedia:http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02694a.htm ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Beowulf
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 08:43
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Concerning the first part of your text - I agree with cg rommel, except I only understood 1.5% And I don't know what books are you refering to? And Njegos obviously thought of himself as a Serbian - it can be seen in every copy of "Mountain Wreath". Btw, Njegos didn't think much of poturice, if you ever read "Mountain Wreath" you would know that. In the core of this book is "Istraga o poturicama".
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Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 08:50
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U should get used to it.She tried to forge some more of Serbian history by stating that Serbs killed more Jews then Croats did in WWII!! After I proved her wrong, she made no further comments... ------------- "It's better to be a billionair for a lifetime then to live in poverty for a week" Bob Rock |
Posted By: gerik
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 09:13
You bring up events from ww2 with the attempt to link them to present events. What about these,you serbs you are not bragging about these:
Source Cseres, T.: http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/cseres/index.htm - Serbian Vendetta in Bacska http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/cseres/cseres01.htm - http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/cseres/cseres01.htm |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 10:18
What are you talking about? If I made no farther comments it was because your rebuttals were repetitive and wrong. http://www.yadvashem.org You can browse through the list of names if you want, but it's easier to just call them. 19,800 Jews were killed in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, then the NDH. 32,000 were killed in Serbia and Montenegro. ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 10:20
I don't know anything about Njegos but the fact that anyone from
Serbia or Montenegro doesn't like poturice doesn't come as a shock. My post was in reference to Kotromanic, just giving cg_rommel a friendly, joking pat on the shoulder - that's all. ------------- |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 10:31
Even if those figures are right, wasn't Serbia under direct German military occupation? -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: gerik
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 10:33
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The problems in Vojvodina are persisting. Let's see: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41706.htm - 2004 U.S Department of State Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor February 28, 2005
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 10:37
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Yes, and I believe that accounts for much of the difference. However,
Bosnia and Herzegovina was occupied as well. In a more abstract sense,
Croatia was - though there was much more public support there. Yad Vashem just gives the numbers and the place of death, it does not record who killed them. The only other places where I've ever seen the same numbers are at the Jewish Museum in Sarajevo, a British Socialist History website, and from a Jewish historian on Yahoo! Chat - so... I wouldn't bring either of those to court with me. However, these three in common said the line "More Jews were killed by Nedic's regime in Serbia than in the whole of the NDH". So they imply it was the Serbs. ------------- |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 10:39
It is a known fact, that the Croats and Muslims formed Waffen SS extermination squads under the Nazis while Serbs did no such thing. By the logic that you use, if Croat or Bsonian death squads killed some Jews in Serbia then they will form part of that 32,000 killed in S&M and thus you blame the Serbs by implication, which seems to suit your agenda here. What matter is who did the killing, not so much where they occured...
------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 10:41
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Well, the Bosniaks recruited to the Waffen SS did little if any of
their fighting in this area of the Balkans as I understand it. But I agree with you - who actually did kill them is more important than where. ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 10:44
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I found the British Socialist website again. Now I know before I post
this, Maju's first comment will be "You said this was a respected
site!" or something along those lines. I want to remind everyone
before that misunderstanding starts that I already warned I wouldn't
bring this to court two posts above. http://www.isg-fi.org.uk/archives/press/wib/wib05.htm - http://www.isg-fi.org.uk/archives/press/wib/wib05.htm It has the line, "The majority of Jews, for example were not murdered in the Ustase concentration camp at Jasenovac: more were killed by Nedic's regime in Serbia than in the whole of the NDH." ------------- |
Posted By: gerik
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 10:46
No comment. [6/1/2005] http://www.nemenyi.net/polgari.asp?PCode=NewYork&MainID=3&SubID=4 - BEATING OF HUNGARIANS IN SERBIA DOCUMENTARY BY IMRE M. SZABO |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 10:48
|
I contacted the owners of the website to ask them from where they got this information. Things like this sometimes turn out to be self-fulfilling truths - one instituation makes the claim and it's passed around between others in a baseless, incestuous circle that no one knows where started. I'm hoping they'll respond with a book, or something notable - but we'll see. ------------- |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 11:02
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Maju you noticed well. Croatia was in aliance with Germans,Hungary too,from Bosnia the famos one Handzar divison. It's true that exist in those nations even antifashist but the numbers are not comparable. In Serbia didn't exist not even one concentracion camp,while you can find them in Hungary,Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Tito(Croat) start the fight on teritories where was most Serbians cittizens. Why the f..k he didn't start them enywhere else??? First liberated teritory in hole Europe 1942 was famos "Uzicka republika" on Serbian teritory. After liberation of Belgrade 1944, 40000 intelectualles was killed or sent to Sremski front(most of them students). 50% of my family was murdered in Bosnia and Herzegovina on a brutal way by Muslims Ustase. Tito cleaned the Croation territory by sending a lot of Serbians from Lika,Dalmatia... to Vojvodina. I posted now theme for another topic,but this isn't the end of my posting. Gerik,hungarian website??? And another one...U.S. Department of State??? They still didn't find what they search for a long time in Iraq,but even that is for another topic. What happened to us in past century we allready forgave,who still whant to count the death ones??? ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 11:25
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Lets put some proof ,everybody knows what is google so lets get busy Ivo Goldstein......Famos Croatian Jew,historian, Avro Manhattan..I think we don't need to ask who is he! Or who doesn't know him can't even discuse on a matter WW2,i can help with a link http://www.reformation.org/holocaus.html ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Nagyfejedelem
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 17:21
| These are truely happened. Sorry, I don't have a link about it, but these atrocities began earlier. |
Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 11:39
So, my comments were wrong...
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 11:44
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So now your arguement has changed to... what?
Croats killed more Serbs during WWII than Serbs did? If I'd known that's what you were talking about, since you specifically said Jews to begin with, I wouldn't have protested.
EDIT: RE the last quote. So you've got a site that says the Germans did it, I've got one that says the Serbs did it. If you think those sites prove either of us right, you're sadly mistaken. ------------- |
Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 11:47
|
Now , it’s true- Serbia was under direct German occupation since 1941.And we were the only occupied country which didn’t send troops to fight allies(USSR) unlike Hungarians, Bosniaks, Croats,etc. Now that I mentioned Hungarians: ’’Holocaust:The Extermination Camps’’ ’’...The impact of the Holocaust varied from region to region, and from year to year in the 21 countries that were directly affected. Nowhere was the Holocaust more intense and sudden than in Hungary. What took place over several years in Germany occurred over 16 weeks in Hungary. Entering the war as a German ally, Hungary had persecuted its Jews but not permitted their deportation. After Germany invaded Hungary on March 19, 1944, this situation changed dramatically. By mid-April the Nazis had confined Jews to ghettos. On May 15, deportations began, and over the next 55 days, the Nazis deported some 438,000 Jews from Hungary to Auschwitz on 147 trains.’’ Copyright © 1994-2002 Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc. Professor Helen Fein:’’Accounting for Genocide’’: :"[Already] by June 1941, signs on public establishments [in Nazi Independent State of Croatia] read, NO SERBS, JEWS, NOMADS, AND DOGS ALLOWED. She clearly states:"...Nonpartisan sources agree that mass genocide was authorized by the state of Croatia. They concur the state instigated, planned, and executed masses against the Serbian Orthodox minority ...and that the Catholic clergy approved, led, or failed to denounce these massacres. http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/Marrus.html - Michael R. Marrus: "The Holocaust in History" ...:"The overall level of violence was highest in Croatia, where Pavelic's Ustasha movement devised the most thoroughly totalitarian state of any satellite and pursued a merciless, bloody assault on the country's two million Serbs..." http://www.srpska-mreza.com/Felman/snf-speech.html#Jew - Major Richard L. Felman Only a handful of Serbs colaborated with the Germans-our people never agreed(UNLIKE SOME) to be a part Third Reich, ’’pure race’’,“Aryans“ or any other absurde organization... "Yugoslavia: History: History of Serbia:Modern Serbia:Revolution and the antifascist struggle" Following the German-Austrian Anschluss of 1938, the Yugoslav government attempted strenuously to sustain a position of independence while being pressured to ally itself ever more closely with Germany. When, on March 25, 1941, the regents succumbed to Axis pressure and signed the Tripartite Pact, the news was greeted by demonstrations of protest, especially in Belgrade. On March 27 the regency was replaced in a coup headed by senior officers, who declared the majority of Prince Peter and repudiated the pact. Belgrade was immediately bombarded and the country invaded by Germany and its allies. _ Copyright © 1994-2002 Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 11:55
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Most of what you've posted there is all true, actually.
I have no idea why this woman talks about the Roman Catholic clergy "approving, leading, or failing to denounce" the massacres. It should say "and", it's very clear all three took place. I forgot the town where the memorial is, it's near Banja Luka (Bosnia) but it's not in Banja Luka. Anyhow, it's about a Roman Catholic Priest or Franciscan Monk or whatever who killed the local Serbs himself with a knife. They reported he sang while he was doing it, never missed a beat, bla bla bla. Pope Jean Paul visited his grave, which - as you can imagine - was like a nuclear bomb going off here. ------------- |
Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 11:57
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Croats killed more Serbs during WWII than Serbs I'm not ''sadly mistaken'' about anything...Read my quotes carefully.I'm using valid historical sources that could be easily traced down.This is interesting: Have you ever wondered why Bosnia never officially accused Croatia of aggression for attacking it as it has done with Yugoslavia? What do Bosnian Moslem's people say about this: "Izetbegovic was Pavelic's soldier in last war !!!" Comment of a Muslim reader from Bosnia (November 2000) |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 12:08
|
I agree it's truly pathetic, that's why it's not an
arguement I made. Though your response seems to suggest thats what you think we were originally discussing? Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia have reconciled. Croatia and Serbia agreed to kill the Muslims and split Bosnia in half between them before the Serbs ever invaded Slovenia in 1991. When the war spread to Croatia, and Dubrovnik was held under siege by the air force, the navy, and ground forces - the deal was off. Croatia barely managed to get back on its feet, with 3/4 of its territory occupied by Serbs for the duration of the war. During the war in Croatia, in 1991, several Herzegovinian villages were massacred - the first victims of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina, long before Suada Dilberovic and Olga Sucic were shot by Serbian snipers on April 6, 1992, in Sarajevo. Croatia smuggled some of the few weapons it had to Bosnian Croats and Bosniaks. Bosnian Croats and Bosniaks committed crimes against each other, both without at least public support from their leaders. There were camps and executions and everything else but not on a large scale. Public support for the HVO dropped in Croatia proper when reports of massacres of Bosniaks became public - unlike in Serbia, where Milosevic's support grew every time foreign media revealed a new camp or a new massacre. The Lightning Operation in 1995 liberated a vast area of northwest Bosnia and Herzegovina, areas like Bihac - with practically NO Croats. Croatian soldiers risked their lives to save Muslim towns and cities from a Serbian siege that had dragged on for years. Originally the Lightning Operation was intended to evict all Serbs from the whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but the Croatian forces stopped - why, we don't know. So we've done bad things to each other, but it was not an organized, intentional campaign of genocide - not only of the people but of their national monuments and any visible evidence of existence as well - as it was with Serbia. Furthermore, the Croatians acknowledge what took place between us. They don't show up at Srebrenica memorials to wave Serbian flags and shout "We f--ked your mother in Srebrenica!" to orphans. They don't carry around Muslim coffins in protests decorated with signs saying, "Waiting for you!" Stipe Mesic has visited the Tuzla Memorial, the Potocari Cemetery, the Visegrad Memorial, the Markale Market memorial - all these things. We have a good relationship. Meanwhile, our lawsuit against Serbia for compensation for the genocide begins next month and legal analysts in the United States said, "It's Bosnia's to lose. They've got it for sure." ------------- |
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 15:13
the hanzar divison never had widespread support and it disbanded very soon after its formation with many of its members joining the partizani |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 15:28
Ill'teknique if this story is not so tragic your posting will be patetic |
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The
above headline appeared in Sarajevo Muslim's weekly magazine, "Svijet".
The original, "Bosnian" language headline was "Himmler ih je stitio." |
Above left: Fez which was a part of "Handzar" division's uniform is completely same as the one Bosnian soldiers wore in Austro-Hungarian military. Only the amblems were changed. The photo shows the "Feldgaru" jacket with amblems on the collar, and camouflage uniform "Tarnhemd"
|
Defile of "Handzar" division |
Officers of the division introduce themselves to the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem |
|
On 10th of February of 1943 Hitler gave a "green light" for creation of the division made up of Bosnian Muslims, whose main purpose would be fighting Tito's partisans in Bosnia. On 13th of Feb. Himmler gave an order to SS Gruppenfuhrer (division-level general) Arthur Phelps, commanding officer of the "Prinz Eugen" SS division, which consisted of Yugoslavian folksdojcers, to immediately start recruiting.
|
|
 |
SS Divisions:
SS-Panzer division "Viking" SS-Volunteer mountain division "Prinz Eugen". Made up of folksdojcers from Serbia and Croatia. SS-volunteer panzer division "Nordland", formed out of remainder of Danish, Norwegian and Holland legions. Logo: Swastika in a circle. SS-mountain division "Handschar", consisted of Balkan folksdojcers and Muslims of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Logo: "handzar" (sword). SS Infantry division "Galicia". Formed in 1943 from Ukranians from Galicia and Rutenia (under-karpatian Ukraine) and "Reich"-Germans. SS Infantry division "Letland". Formed in the beginning of 1944. Consisted of Letonians and Baltic Germans. SS Infantry diviosion "Latvia". Formed in 1944. Made up of Letonian and folksdojcers. SS Infantry division "Estland". Formed in 1944. Made up of Estonians and folksdojcers. Logo" Letter "E" and a sword. SS Mountain division "Skenderbeg". Formed in 1944. Made up of Albanians. Logo: two-headed Albanian eagle. |
 |
Branko Slavini (in uniform) and Kasim Silajdzic, two Bosnian soldier who deserted 16th September. Before them, Kazimir Silajatovic also deserted. |
High-school grounds, a home of 240 Bosnian soldiers of 13. SS engineering batallion 14. August 1943 |
 Bosnian
volunteer hanging a picture of Grand Mufti of Jerusalem |
 A
group of Muslim volunteers of "Handzar" division. All
wear fez caps. Logos are skull with crossed bones and SS eagle.
Fez was worn by the Muslim soldiers and their German officers
alike. There were different models of fez in different colors
(green, red, with or without the tail). The uniform collars had a
curved sword and swastika engraved on them. |
|
 Foreigners
in Waffen SS (Balkan and Centr. Europe)
Slovenians 6,000 Special armed formations of fascist Germany (Waffen-SS) until the end of war created all together 38 divisions, 18 of which were staffed by pure German and 20 by foreigners. Among them was a "Handzar" division staffed by Bosnians, claims the French magazine "Istoria" (Number 32, year 1973.). [Note by the Srpska Mreza webmaster: The Serbs in the table above were not the Serbs at all, it was the Germans living in Serbia's province of Vojvodina, which used to belong the pre-WWI Austro-Hungary.] |
 In
Bosnian mountains. The "Handzar" division was trained
and armed as a mountain formation. |
Himmler: "Muslims responded to the call of Muslim heads and joined our side because of their hatred of our joint Jewish-English-Bolshevik enemies, and because of their belief and respect for the one we place above all -- towards Fuhrer." |
|
 SS Reichsfuhrer Heinrich Himmler and SS Brigadefuhrer Karl G. Sauberzweig examining "Handzar" division. |
|
On the fez, on the left side, mountaineer division wore a flower. |
 GETTING READY TO FIGHT THE PARTISANS: Soldiers of the "Handzar" division |
 IN
BOSNIAN MOUNTAINS: During the 1944 fight. |
|
 | |
Commander of
the "Handzar" division. SS-brigadier general
Karl-Gustav Sauberzweig also was required to wear the same fez.
-------------
When your heart is empty,your
mind is worth nothing.
anonimus
Posted By: Jay.
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 16:22
 ------------- Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava Only Unity Can Save the Serb |
Posted By: merced12
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 17:53
|
greter serbia to nano serbia ------------- http://www.turks.org.uk/ - http://www.turks.org.uk/ 16th century world; Ottomans all Roman orients Safavids in Persia Babur in india `azerbaycan bayragini karabagdan asacagim`` |
Posted By: Jay.
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 18:39
You're forgetting that Bosnian Muslims and Croatians were in Ustache together....Then, some of them went to join Partizans. ------------- Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava Only Unity Can Save the Serb |
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 00:08
lol ne haber kardes |
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 00:12
|
you really havent understood what i tried to tell you the attrocities commited by the hanzar divison where limited to up to three hundred members the group was very unpopular the group had very low morale and support it collapsed within a short time as splintering groups left it and joined the partizani i dont understand how you can't get that through your head but then again you seem like the person that is more common with seeing CCCC all over the damn place too |
Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 08:57
|
Yes ,good old insults come handy in the absence of any contra-arguments.Write some other stuff- feel free-relieve yourself...but facts shall remain facts no matter what... Btw, ill teqnique, I do not consider all Bosniaks and Croats as Ustasha's since I happen to know a few... |
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 19:47
some people confuse the word after hanzar ok divsion and brigade and army are three different things the hanzar group is or was a division a division is not a brigade nor an army its a limited amount of men and like i said its factual information that states that only about three hundred commited any kind of attrocities and the group itself disbanded rather quick it is not revelant in the grander scheme of thinks in the balkan portion of WWII. |
Posted By: Death
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 15:12
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So i see that all of the troubleing topics are here already. Not so long ago i was talking to a close friend of mine,we discused the wars that Serbia has gone trough and he said something like"If its war then its war",he was thinking about an all out war,no hold bars.See here, he is a Bosnian,a grandson of a "Bosnian colonist"(Serb) in Vojvodina,no disrispect,i love that guy like a brother,but there is a mater of saying it and doing it,and a mater of viciosness and tolerance. You know how hitler said that in every Germna soldier there needs to be awaken the Hun,.....well,the Germans are just Germans! I on the other hand think of peace tho i have a lot of reasons to think otherwise.I agree with the Serbs in alot of things as i posible would agree with the mayority here,nevermind the nationality or religion,i can say that im preety tolerant, but man i feel that there is something hidden in me,something savage,and i pray to God that it doesnt come out ever. The sobject yes,i cant speak for all of Hungarians here,nor can Kasa(the self proclamed leader or for that mater any other Magyar leader here).Lett me tell you one thing, that same Kasa was siting with all the Serbians nationalists,Milosevic,Seselj,....and he is suspicious to me in a sense of faul buissenes,you know what i mean. So, if you are by nature intolerant,as most of the Balkan peiople is-and i dont mean no disrespect,that is just the way you are and i have learned to live with it/you, then you would find trouble even if its not there. Ok Hungarians have a little trouble in Serbia, but then,they/we have that same trouble in Romania,Slovakia,Moldavia. There will come a time when whole of Europe will be united and letts not push it,ok You dont want a 200 pounds mad Hun on your head(i picked this word,and im jokeing about this last thing here but not in its entirety) if you are not willing to go all the way,and as i see this modern history of this region,none of you/us are willing to go there. I think that this was tolerant. Ready when you are miss.And please people stop with the hattred(You should or we would or 500 years,we have a future and i see it together) |
Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 08:46
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Bravo, Madjar! That part about the savage waiting inside-spot on-majority(very, very large majority) of humans are like that. U're right about that Kasa guy-he practically owns the city of Horgosh, and he did get very rich during the time of milosevic and co.As for those incindents-i think the situation between serbs and magyars isn't that serious-i already mentioned a few times-just look at the no. of mixed marriages.However, i hope everything works out - and yes we need to get these slimeballs off the power...they're getting on my nerves ------------- "It's better to be a billionair for a lifetime then to live in poverty for a week" Bob Rock |
Posted By: Jay.
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 13:21
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Well said, Death
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Posted By: krios
Date Posted: 05-May-2006 at 10:54
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Hungarians and Austrians still suffer because of loss of their great empire because of Serbia.... thats it. No chance Vojvodina will become problem since there is big Serb majority. And for all those that says serbs wanted to erase all minorities .... I will ask you why there are still 13 official minorities in Serbia and why sandzak muslims were not erased or killed in last balkan wars. If serbs wanted to erase muslims in bosnia why didnt they start with muslims in Serbia ? A lot of BS is here.... mainly from some muslim poor minded people who want to try and make serbians ugly as hell and demonize. All balkan nationalities have a lot of blood on their hands ... and ten times more serbs were killed and displaced on balkans in 20th century than all others together ! ------------- http://www.historyexplorer.net - History Timelines and Articles |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 07-May-2006 at 14:39
That's not possible. There would be none left. ------------- |
Posted By: Richard XIII
Date Posted: 09-May-2006 at 04:29
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Romania - Hungary relations. There is no real problem. http://www.unpo.org/member.php?arg=24 - http://www.unpo.org/member.php?arg=24 ------------- "I want to know God's thoughts... ...the rest are details." Albert Einstein |
Posted By: Death
Date Posted: 10-May-2006 at 23:23
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Yeah yeah,if i was more hot tempered or even Balkanian i would go into a argument with my Romanian friend but i aint gona.Mila baby,dont worry about "the hungarian minority" in Vojvodina.These guys have me here,you wouldnt like me talking about Bosnia....Who cares?Do you care Mila? Slovenian dude,Austro-Hungary disbanded because of Serbia?If you love Serbs so much why dont you marry them.(Au bokte molovo pa ti si gori od Krajisnika, mi to zovemo cetnicke mame,.....bice da je to u pitanju,...lol) |