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Topic ClosedTamils in ancient pakistan?
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Azat View Drop Down
Samurai
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Posts: 110 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Tamils in ancient pakistan?
    Posted: 10-Sep-2007 at 22:09

Reminder to all those who say Tamilinas were authors of Indus Valley Civilization ..

 
Can they present a single........ even a single evidence that can give foundation to their claim over IVC ???
 
Otherwise let us leave this civilization for the people whose ancesstors founded this great civilization .
 
Waiting ...
 
 
 
 
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Guest
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2007 at 23:36

there is no evidence of it all, its like saying English were the builder of the Greek civilization. People can claim whatever they want. The truth is Tamils had no influence in the region of pakistan or north india.
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Baron
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Posts: 409 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2007 at 17:09
Professor Hassan Daani has categorically stated that there is no element of Indus Valley Civilization in South India. If South Indians were the builders of Indus Valley Civilization then some thing should have carried over from there but we find no traces of IVC in South India. There are in Malabar, there are in Gujrat but not in South India. Even urbanization in South India happens much much later after the end of the Indus Valley Civilization. That is why he has serious objections to the Dravidian Theory of the Indus Script. So to my tamilians friends who are waiting for the Dravidians characteristics of the Indus Valley Civilization to be proved my advice to them is that they shouldn't hold their breaths for it. And about the scythian question scythians were a central asian nomadic people who eat their dead and were an Iranian people (at least their elite spoke an Iranian language) and whoever says that jats are scyhtians, well his notion is out of date.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 02:02
Asko Parpola has discussed elaborately about the issue in the following site:
Then he concludes:
 
"There are several structural and lexical Dravidisms even in the Rgveda, the earliest preserved text collection, pointing to the presence of Dravidian speakers in Northwest India in the second millennium B.C. The 25 Dravidian languages spoken at present form the second largest linguistic family of South Asia. Until recently, about one quarter of the entire population has spoken Dravidian, while the speakers of Austro-Asiatic, the third largest linguistic family of long standing in South Asia, numbered just a few per cent. The Indus language is likely to have belonged to the North Dravidian sub-branch represented today by the Brahui, spoken in the mountain valleys and plateaus of Afghanistan and Baluchistan, the core area of the Early Harappan neolithic cultures, and by the Kurukh spoken in North India from Nepal and Madhya Pradesh to Orissa, Bengal and Assam".
 
There are other scholars also, who still hold the IVC script could be read in Dravidian language, particularly, in Tamil. Why such possibility should be there when we are away from the site of IVC? As you have changed during 100-200 years, you can forget the past, but we cannot.
 
We Dravidians still respect our past and continue it exhibited in culture.
 
Do Muslims or Pakistanis, as you claim do that?
 
We respect the Buddhism also. In fact, Buddhis are our friends.
 
But what is happening in the land of IVC / Pakistan? Just this the current news:
 

Pakistani militants try to blow up Buddha carving

Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:42PM IST (Reuters)

By Hameedullah Khan

MINGORA, Pakistan (Reuters) - Islamist militants in Pakistan have tried to blow up a seventh-century Buddhist rock carving in an attack reminiscent of the destruction of ancient Buddha statues in Afghanistan six years ago.

There was, however, no damage to the image of the sitting Buddha carved into a 40-metre high rock in mountains 20 km north of Mingora, a town in the scenic Swat valley, northwest of the capital, Islamabad.

A group of masked-men tried to destroy the carving on Tuesday, said provincial archaeology department official Aqleem Khan.

"Militants drilled holes in the rock and filled them with dynamite and blew it up," Khan said on Wednesday.

"The explosion damaged the upper part of the rock but there was no damage to the image itself," he told Reuters.

Buddhism spread through northern India and flourished in what is now Pakistan and Afghanistan hundreds of years before the arrival of Islam. Both countries are now predominantly Muslim.

Khan compared the attack on the carving to the destruction of two giant standing Buddha statues in Bamiyan province in Afghanistan in early 2001 by the then ruling Taliban.

The Taliban blew up the two ancient statues carved into a cliff face saying they were offensive to Islam, despite appeals from around the world, including from Muslim leaders, that they be saved.

"It's just like the way the Taliban used to behave," he said.

Khan said there were no arrangements to guard the site in the Jehanabad area in the Swat valley. Police had been informed of the attack, he said.

As in other parts of northwest Pakistan, militants have intensified their activities in the valley in a bid to force people to follow a strict Islamic code.

There have also been several attacks on security forces in the valley in recent months.

Last week, militants blew up about 60 music, video and cosmetics stalls in a market in the valley after their owners ignored warnings to close their businesses that the Islamists deemed un-Islamic.

Moderate Pakistanis are dismayed by the growing influence of militants pushing their austere interpretation of Islam, mostly in ethnic Pashtun tribal areas in the northwest, in a process known as "Talibanisation".

http://in.reuters.com/article/southAsiaNews/idINIndia-29479620070912

 
You do not worry, we respect Muslims also, because they are our friends.


Edited by Jayachandran - 13-Sep-2007 at 02:08
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bilal_ali_2000 View Drop Down
Baron
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Posts: 409 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 05:48
All that you have referenced is the same ting that which i have heard a million times before from my Dravidian friends.  All it is coulda, woulda, shoulda... whateva!!!
I have actually read Asko Parpola work on the Indus script and you should have no illusions about his Dravidian readings because at best he could only offer readings of a  few group of symbols not even a single full line of text was read fully. And just as many scholars swear that they could read the language of the script as vedic sanskrit so should we  just take their word for it. The barometer of the correctness of a reading is whether it is able to read all the available material in a consistent way and so far despite decades of work the Dravidian theory falls short.
Yes we have changed who doesn't by the way it was not that long ago that South Indian women used to go around topless but as i have said the indus valley culture survives among the Pakistani people right up to this day which is curiously absent among the south indians and what little there is its from a much later borrowing from the north.
As for us Pakistani's getting in touch with our history look around on this forum and see that how much Pakistani are proud of their history in general and IVC in particular the only reason you don't find IVC as the main cultural element of Pakstani's is mainly because of religous reasons as many muslims refuse to even believe that there existed a world before Islam, or they don't realize its significance and because they think that history is a dull topic and who could blame them with this current repulsive system of formal education.
And on a parting note does anyone have any serious refutation for Hassan Dani's (Subcontinents most decorated archeologist) points i have answers to the points which he has raised against the Aryan authorship of IVC but does anyone have answers to his points raised against the Dravidian theory.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2007 at 07:47
See his stand here:
 
"All that you have referenced is the same ting that which i have heard a million times before from my Dravidian friends.  All it is coulda, woulda, shoulda... whateva!!!"
 
But he is asking for books!
 
"I have actually read Asko Parpola work on the Indus script and you should have no illusions about his Dravidian readings because at best he could only offer readings of a  few group of symbols not even a single full line of text was read fully. And just as many scholars swear that they could read the language of the script as vedic sanskrit so should we  just take their word for it. The barometer of the correctness of a reading is whether it is able to read all the available material in a consistent way and so far despite decades of work the Dravidian theory falls short"
 
Whatever the differences one have with other scholars, none canforget his contribution of publication of two volumes of IVC scripts one for India and another for your Pakistan.
 
Earlier Iravatham Mahadevan prepared the Concordance.
 
As a Pakistani or as a Muslim, you read in your own way, but you should tell the methdology and how they have been deciphered.
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Azat View Drop Down
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Posts: 110 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2007 at 12:36
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

Professor Hassan Daani has categorically stated that there is no element of Indus Valley Civilization in South India. If South Indians were the builders of Indus Valley Civilization then some thing should have carried over from there but we find no traces of IVC in South India. There are in Malabar, there are in Gujrat but not in South India. Even urbanization in South India happens much much later after the end of the Indus Valley Civilization. That is why he has serious objections to the Dravidian Theory of the Indus Script. So to my tamilians friends who are waiting for the Dravidians characteristics of the Indus Valley Civilization to be proved my advice to them is that they shouldn't hold their breaths for it. And about the scythian question scythians were a central asian nomadic people who eat their dead and were an Iranian people (at least their elite spoke an Iranian language) and whoever says that jats are scyhtians, well his notion is out of date.
 
If you read Hasan Dhani than you might have known his views also about these people whom he says Central Asian .
 
If you believe that Indus valley people were orignal Aryan than you are simply wrong .People of Indus area and later scythic group had same ethnic background but Scythian term was later confined to  nomadic people on or beyond Himalayas than settled agriculturist of Indus region. 
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Baron
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Posts: 409 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2007 at 16:56
Originally posted by Azat

Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

Professor Hassan Daani has categorically stated that there is no element of Indus Valley Civilization in South India. If South Indians were the builders of Indus Valley Civilization then some thing should have carried over from there but we find no traces of IVC in South India. There are in Malabar, there are in Gujrat but not in South India. Even urbanization in South India happens much much later after the end of the Indus Valley Civilization. That is why he has serious objections to the Dravidian Theory of the Indus Script. So to my tamilians friends who are waiting for the Dravidians characteristics of the Indus Valley Civilization to be proved my advice to them is that they shouldn't hold their breaths for it. And about the scythian question scythians were a central asian nomadic people who eat their dead and were an Iranian people (at least their elite spoke an Iranian language) and whoever says that jats are scyhtians, well his notion is out of date.
 
If you read Hasan Dhani than you might have known his views also about these people whom he says Central Asian .
 
If you believe that Indus valley people were orignal Aryan than you are simply wrong .People of Indus area and later scythic group had same ethnic background but Scythian term was later confined to  nomadic people on or beyond Himalayas than settled agriculturist of Indus region. 

Pofesso Hassan Dani is a world renowned archaeologist but that doesn't mean that he is a cultural anthropologist. I only pointed towards his  opinion as an archaeologist of there archaeologically being no evidence of IVC in the south. And Even if the Aryan Invasion theory is correct then i still don't see that how these Jats can be Scythians because the Jats find mention in the oldest Indian literature and the Indians always ditinguished between them and the Scythians which they called Shakas.
As for me being wrong about the Indus civilization being Aryan well we'll see that how the situation stands in the few coming years with new evidence emerging with each new dig which seems to point out the Aryan identity of IVC. I am working no such topic the decipherment of the Indus script as Sanskrit and as you can see in my "IVC script" thead that i have made some progress there.   
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Posts: 110 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2007 at 03:27
 
You are very right that Jats find mention in the oldest indian literature so only I say they are not Aryans .
 
 
The basic confusion  in history starts with a notion that Aryans were some distinct race that moved in mass .
 
Facts to the contrary is Aryan was a religious term that was applied to people who adopted Vedic FAITHS .
IndianS didn't follow vedic faith or  Sanskrit  language earlier so they were not Aryans  .
 
but LATER THEY ADOPTED VEDIC FAITH AND ITS NATIVE Brahmans learnt Vedas and the Initial followers of this new religion were Jats of north west so they were the initial Aryans IN India .later Vedas were totally integrated with native Indian Shiva Worship of Jats and other native faith of  austroloids and vedism continued its march towards east .So as far as Ino Pak areas are concerned Jats were first followers of vedism and so they wer first  Aryans but Non  Aryans earlier .Later people of GANGATIC region also adopted these faith and they also called their land Aryavarta .
 
So Aryan Invasion theory is not valid the vedic preachers were very few(may have been Scythians themselves ) ,but later arrival of vedic ways of life is too obvious to ask an explanation .
 
 
I will show you why these Jats and Scythians were from same stock but first let me clear your  doubt about Indians  being orignal Aryans ...
 
Have you read the link about Indica given by IKKI specially for you ...
 
Just Check ...Where is the country of Aryans?? Is it in India or outside India so late as in appox.300 bc.??
 
 
 
 
Now to account for the rivers being so numerous, and the supply of water so superabundant, the native philosophers and proficients in natural science advance the following reasons:--They say that the countries, which surround India--those of the Skythians and Baktrians and also of the Aryans--are more elevated than India, so that their waters, agreeably to natural law, flow down together from all sides to the plains beneath, where they gradually saturate the soil with moisture, and generate a multitude of rivers.
 
 
Look here Megasthenes knew and has written so clearly that Aryans are inhabitants of Iran not India.There are clear records in Vedas which explains when and how Indian learnt Vedas who was the first person from India who first converted to Vedism and hence became Aryan but a section among Indian In order to prove their orignal native Indentity keep on trying that aryans were Indians and Sanskrit was a Indian Language .
 
 
Most Important thing for your research if You want to decipher Indus Script keep Sanskrit at an arms length from Indus Script.


Edited by Azat - 26-Sep-2007 at 03:47
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Pretorian
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Posts: 156 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2007 at 12:15
True. Sanskrit is not at all related to IVC scripts.
God is not great.
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Posts: 28 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2007 at 16:56
Originally posted by Azat

 
You are very right that Jats find mention in the oldest indian literature so only I say they are not Aryans .
 
 
 
U mean in the vedas? i didn't know that.
Wasn't it still not 100% confirmed, it was the jats the'r talking about?
can u quote?
 
As far as i know, the origin of the jats is still shrouded in mistery (in other words: unknown).
 
no comment
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Posts: 409 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 00:06
Originally posted by Azat

 
You are very right that Jats find mention in the oldest indian literature so only I say they are not Aryans .
 
 
The basic confusion  in history starts with a notion that Aryans were some distinct race that moved in mass .
 
Facts to the contrary is Aryan was a religious term that was applied to people who adopted Vedic FAITHS .
IndianS didn't follow vedic faith or  Sanskrit  language earlier so they were not Aryans  .
 
but LATER THEY ADOPTED VEDIC FAITH AND ITS NATIVE Brahmans learnt Vedas and the Initial followers of this new religion were Jats of north west so they were the initial Aryans IN India .later Vedas were totally integrated with native Indian Shiva Worship of Jats and other native faith of  austroloids and vedism continued its march towards east .So as far as Ino Pak areas are concerned Jats were first followers of vedism and so they wer first  Aryans but Non  Aryans earlier .Later people of GANGATIC region also adopted these faith and they also called their land Aryavarta .
 
So Aryan Invasion theory is not valid the vedic preachers were very few(may have been Scythians themselves ) ,but later arrival of vedic ways of life is too obvious to ask an explanation .
 
 
I will show you why these Jats and Scythians were from same stock but first let me clear your  doubt about Indians  being orignal Aryans ...
 
Have you read the link about Indica given by IKKI specially for you ...
 
Just Check ...Where is the country of Aryans?? Is it in India or outside India so late as in appox.300 bc.??
 
 
 
 
Now to account for the rivers being so numerous, and the supply of water so superabundant, the native philosophers and proficients in natural science advance the following reasons:--They say that the countries, which surround India--those of the Skythians and Baktrians and also of the Aryans--are more elevated than India, so that their waters, agreeably to natural law, flow down together from all sides to the plains beneath, where they gradually saturate the soil with moisture, and generate a multitude of rivers.
 
 
Look here Megasthenes knew and has written so clearly that Aryans are inhabitants of Iran not India.There are clear records in Vedas which explains when and how Indian learnt Vedas who was the first person from India who first converted to Vedism and hence became Aryan but a section among Indian In order to prove their orignal native Indentity keep on trying that aryans were Indians and Sanskrit was a Indian Language .
 
 
Most Important thing for your research if You want to decipher Indus Script keep Sanskrit at an arms length from Indus Script.

Er..... i am actually making quite good progress by assuming Sanskrit as the IVC language. And there can be no denying that the subcontinentals are as Aryan as the Iranians perhaps even more so. You cannot miss that  if you read the Vedas (which i have) where they frequently refer to themselves as Aryans. And trust me my friend that since i am donating many precious days of my life to deciphering the IVC script as Sanskrit i have much reason to believe that the IVC was Aryan and Aryans were indigenous to the Sub-Continent because i have studied a great deal about it and it will be i who will suffer for any of my wrong assumptions. Azat the Indians also called themselves Aryans a lot but they didn't based their whole identity on it unlike the Iranians, there the word only identified a more general meaning as "noble" if megasethes had stayed with Indians long enough he would also have noticed that they also somtimes referred to themselves as Aryans although in a much general sense
.
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Posts: 409 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 00:22
Originally posted by Azat

other native faith of  austroloids and vedism continued
I think that we have clearly made the point that the IV people were not Australoid but much like the people living there as said by Hemphill so where does these Australoid people enter the picture  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 00:57
Speaking of Dani, heres an interview.
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Posts: 409 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 01:21
Originally posted by Sparten

Speaking of Dani, heres an interview.

Yes i have read it. And Sparten why haven't you replied to my PM. Are you dropping out of the correspondence? 





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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 01:26
Sorry Bilal, been busy, lots of work these days. Give me till the weekend yaar.
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Posts: 409 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 01:37
Originally posted by Sparten

Sorry Bilal, been busy, lots of work these days. Give me till the weekend yaar.

Ok i understand.  Take your time and keep i mind that there is no pressure, we both will keep this correspondence at our own leisure.




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