Tamils in ancient pakistan?
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: History of the South Asian subcontinent
Forum Discription: The Indian sub-continent and South Central Asia
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20535
Printed Date: 09-Jun-2024 at 22:08
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Topic: Tamils in ancient pakistan?
Posted By: Guests
Subject: Tamils in ancient pakistan?
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2007 at 10:58
| Was the Indus valley civilization a Tamil based civilization? |
Replies:
Posted By: K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2007 at 20:48
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Already, enough has been discussed on the topic.
And we were even accused of being "South Indians" and so on.
Anyway, in spite of the interpretation of Asko Parpola, Iravatham Mahadevan and others, the Indus script could not be "Dravidian", as they have only taken few seals for their "words" to be read in Tamil. They cannot read all in Tamil. ------------- History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past. |
Posted By: Azat
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2007 at 21:19
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It is almost proved scientifically that Indus Valley Civilization was not a Dravidian civilization . Speaking in a broader sense ,It was a civilization of the same Caucasian Scythian or central Asian people who as a majority are living here from ancient times .It was first pointed out by Prof.Hasan Dani and later substantiated by Craniometric and DNA analysis conducted by Hemphill and others.Modern representative of those ancient people are groups who are closely associated with a scythoaryan ancestry.
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Posted By: M. Nachiappan
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 05:39
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When Kandiyur inscription was mentioned, we were dubbed differently, as pinted our by Mr. Rao.
If scholars are actually convinced so then they should come out and declare accordingly that the IVC civilizatioon was nether Aryan nor dravidian so that most of the wrong historical inerpretations of historians for the last 69 to 100 years would go.
The present generation could discuss effectively about the historical processes.
Even Pakistanis could join the issue.
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Posted By: pumaaa123
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 23:51
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Quite one another mixup from the forumers. Theres no dravida either and telling its a civilization of Caucasoid is baseless. Then you have to accept that from Ancient tamil language and the people have rooted connection with Indus as of other sub-continent people. There are even groups in certain pockets of sind which is still evident to state this connection. ------------- |
Posted By: M. Nachiappan
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2007 at 04:36
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Kindly elaborate what you want to say:
"Ancient tamil language and the people have rooted connection with Indus as of other sub-continent people. There are even groups in certain pockets of sind which is still evident to state this connection".
Pakistanis have already refuted that they were "Dravidians", instead, they preferred to be called as "Aryans" (as per the postings "Pakistan stolen history").
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Posted By: Dharmendra
Date Posted: 08-Jul-2007 at 13:19
| There is no proof that dravidians (Tamils) actually ever were present in pakistan or even north india, places like Punjab Kashmir etc.... |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 08-Jul-2007 at 21:38
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Pumaaa123 wrote- Theres no dravida either and telling its a civilization of Caucasoid is baseless. Do any of you read reach others posts, or do you just decide your going to argue with someone even if they are in agreement with you?Both of you just restated what puma had posted, only you act like he didn't agree with you. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 09-Jul-2007 at 09:31
Which DNA analysis? Did they manage to get the DNA of Indus Valley residents? Where are those studies, you did not post any links. |
Posted By: kshtriya-Mer
Date Posted: 09-Jul-2007 at 09:58
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man i herd tamils and dravadians are direct decendance of africans that settled in india? and they are closley realated to the Samalions.
is this tru?
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Posted By: AlokaParyetra
Date Posted: 09-Jul-2007 at 12:08
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People like to say a lot of things. As for "direct decedents," i'm pretty sure that's not true. There might be a lot of similarities. But "direct" decedents? I don't know so much. Plus, "Tamils," as a group, are not that homogeneous either. Tamil influence, and counter influence to Tamil groups, can be found everywhere from SE Asia up to Burma on the east and Maharashtra on the west. Through the Cholas, Cheras, and Pandyas and the Eastern and Western Chalukyas, Tamils have been dispersed throughout the Subcontinent. Similarly, invasions by more northern kingdoms into the Tamil controlled areas would have brought in several different phenotypes. Therefore, the grouping "Tamil" in itself hardly represents a homogeneous phenotype, but rather a more homogeneous culture. Therefore, any genetic stuff you hear should be taken with a grain of salt. IMO, Tamil, South, North, and other such classifications are not in themselves exclusive enough to really be used to any effect for comparison. |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 09-Jul-2007 at 17:16
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This includes recent Hemphill study of S. Asia. You have to read all of it. If you rush through and cherry pick you might be shooting yourself in the foot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_and_Archaeogenetics_of_South_Asia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_and_Archaeogenetics_of_South_Asia ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: M. Nachiappan
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2007 at 07:33
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Dharmendra commented in "The Dravidian Problem" posting as follows:
Pathani is saying Bs^ The fact is this is just a lie to say tamils were ruling entire india. Tamils never had such power. I dont know why Tamils are being glorified on this site.
So what would be the comments of others?
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Jul-2007 at 02:58
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http://www.newsfinder.org/site/more/tamil_nadus_ancient_cities_may_predate_mesopotamian_civilization/ -
Hey folks,
am newly registered. am an Architect practicing in UK. my heartiest wishes to all you guys.
neway.. will go to the topic..
- My personal perception is that rather investigating particularly on the connection of Tamils with http://www.newsfinder.org/site/more/tamil_nadus_ancient_cities_may_predate_mesopotamian_civilization/
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Jul-2007 at 03:10
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added to that..
i have done a thesis on the ancient submerged city of poombuhaar and have applied several design theories on my Architecture. so i know a bit about the ancient city. am really a person who is concerned with the present mechanical design application in urban design which leads us to forget all our emotional and indigenous cultural expressions.
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Posted By: pumaaa123
Date Posted: 11-Jul-2007 at 07:27
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First lets correct the Topic Head. Its 'ancient'and there was no land in name of Pakistan. It should be called Indus Region instead. Moreover many speak without having proper knowledge or without proper analysis with what they collect. Few are just mythical. Racial identification is complex and just hearing from someone you cant tell it over a history forum. For example, if you say a white can be ethnically identified with White skin color and piercing nasal shape then not all white have the same features. That much complex is racial classification which was taught by the white themselves to rest of the world. The people of this sub-continent are from the same civilization, Indus. Check this that the Brahui langauge spoken in eastern baloch is brach out of anicent tamil and certain group (sect) of people from sind are classified along with south Indians genetically. Today they have lot of external influence. Atlast the sangam literature of Tamil, South India which is recognised world over by historians, says how today sects of southern india camein in few thousands and settled down in this virgin land. This applies for the submerged kumari contient too. Todays southern tip is just left over. It requires much thoughtful research over south India, Tamil and Kumari continent, which could simply kill away those meaningless stories. ------------- |
Posted By: singhh
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2007 at 00:57
pakistanis and Tamils are so different in everway, how can his connection be made .
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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2007 at 05:26
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Its quite ridiculous to back date a modern ethnicity that many years. Surely none of the modern ethnicities existed in any recognisable form.
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Posted By: pumaaa123
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2007 at 02:56
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For one instance, check this yours own website stating what connection the Tamil/other south Indian languages have with Indus region. Brahui today having heavy external influence still while classifying comes under south Indian lingual subgroup. Panjabi/Sindi once been presented with similar script of Sanskrit today has become something like Arabic. Religion has changed a whole lot, even most of your body cells. http://mazhar.dk/pakistan/population.htm - http://mazhar.dk/pakistan/population.htm - Scroll down and look at the end. If can’t back date and evaluate then have to stop talking history. You folks simply make out a connection between Sanskrit and Greek, Indian with European (Aryan). But are not ready to accept the very fact that most of today’s subcontinent languages have same origin. It’s quite easy to illustrate the similarity between Tamil and Hindi/Sanskrit but need to try hard to lay a connection between Sanskrit to Greek/Latin which is merely a coincidence. The westerns themselves have buried those stories. Why still holding that so hard when a light colored south asian is stoned in the streets of Russia and Britain. Accept and be happy with the formation you have. ------------- |
Posted By: irani
Date Posted: 29-Jul-2007 at 17:20
| it is possible that there were ancient dravidians in the indus, but that doesn't mean they were tamil??? why is that connection being made? There is no evidence that Tamil people actually existed in pakistan. |
Posted By: SpartaN117
Date Posted: 29-Jul-2007 at 17:47
You obviously dont understand the meaning of "Ancient". No modern country existed in Ancient times, so "Ancient anything" is just the modern country but in ancient times. The tendency of referring to Afghanistan and Pakistan as Ancient India is flawed reasoning and wont keep going on. India is also a recent creation. The idea of Pakistan being called "India" stems from British Raj. You need to understand that British India died a long time ago, and Modern India was created. Secondly, Indus Valley is based in Pakistan, so Ancient Pakistan = Indus Region. And no, all the people of the subcontinent did not come from the IVC. The civilisation is only 5000 years old. Humans settled India far earlier than that when they came from Africa originally. Your theory doesnt take into account those people. Languages like Punjabi really are ancient. The similarities between Brahui and Tamil could have been caused by a thousand other things, there is no need to jump to conclusions with one fact which supports your point of view. The Tamil theory has no evidence to back it up. While Pakistan might be a recent creation, Pakistanis are not. So Pakistans history can go past 60 years. Labelling everything Indian doesnt always make sense. ------------- http://www.PakHub.Info - PakHub.Info Reclaiming Pakistans Identity Join Us |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2007 at 10:53
| actually ask bilal 2000, as he is studying the indus valley civilization. To date all the DNA evidence suggests that the people living today on the indus valley are the direct decendants of the indus valley civilzation people. So to say they were tamil is purely false. |
Posted By: MarcoPolo
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2007 at 21:17
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I think Prof. Dani and several others have clearly demonstrated that the Indus Valley Civilization was an indigenous one and that the Dravidian theory is flawed. Many believe that a significant breakthrough is eminent as more and more information and knowledge about this ancient civilization is revealed and Pakistani's come to learn more and more of their past history and uniqueness. Recent changes in government textbooks to allow for greater appreciation of Pakistan's past are all steps in the right direction.
In Sindh, there are several ethnic groups (eg. Manchar, etc..) that still inhabit the banks of the indus who consider themselves as the decendents of the Indus civilization, and they share no similarity with Tamils whatsoever either culturally, linguistically or phenotypically. further DNA analysis show absolutely no dravidian traits in any of Pakistan's major ethnic groups or even the Brahui.
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Posted By: Azat
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2007 at 22:13
Not flawed Dravidian theory has no base at all .As pointed out by prof.Dani It was a civilization of scythian people . Most probably of Jats and Mers who are reported living here from ancient times.
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Posted By: K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2007 at 22:36
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I have already started a yahoo.group in the following site:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IVC-Sangam-Study/ - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IVC-Sangam-Study/
Interested may join and debate. ------------- History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past. |
Posted By: pumaaa123
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2007 at 04:56
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A discussion with elements (dravida, arya) which not at all exist will never end. It is something like fighting with air. Better if someone first properly lists out how a thing called (1)dravida can be identified and (2) how it differs from arya. Without that its vague. ------------- |
Posted By: andrew
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2007 at 11:29
| I've always learned that Sinhalese were Northwest Indians and that Tamils were Dravidians. |
Posted By: Azat
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2007 at 12:44
Why not a have debate here itself .Let us see what is the truth.
Was it a civilzation of Dravidian Or Scythian ?
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Posted By: bilal_ali_2000
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2007 at 13:11
There has been done an anthropological analysis on the 300 or so skeletons found in Mohenjodaro and Harappa and it was stated that those skeletons are no different than that of the population of Sindh and Punjab living there today. I was looking at an African site and there it was stated that Indus Valley Civilization was Black. It is about time that Tamils and black nationalists or even white nationalists should lay of our history. |
Posted By: Azat
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2007 at 23:01
Very true Bilal.
The study was conducted by Hemphill and others and craniometric studies exposed that those people were similar to present population of these areas today.
Now since among the present population Jats and mers are considered the most ancient and there is no breakage line observed in these craniometric studies natural implication is ,it was a civilization of the same people minus some confirmed later arrived groups like Indo-Greeks and mongols.
I have never seen a baseless propaganda stretched for too long time time than this tamilian claim on Indus Valley .
Fact is, it was a civilization of the same people who are living in majority same land today also and most ancient of that group is Jats and Mers.
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Posted By: K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
Date Posted: 09-Sep-2007 at 04:13
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About “Aryans” and “Dravidians”, I have posted my two papers in http://www.allempires.com/ - www.allempires.com , as follows –
They have been presented taking internal evidences from the ancient Tamil literature / Sangam Literature. As the westerners / Indologists proceeded from Sanskrit or “Aryan” literature to discover them, I have proceeded from the ancient Tamil literature or “Dravidian” literature to find out their presence in their literature. But, in the literature we find no “Aryans” and “Dravidians”. They have been and are discussed and debated in many forums. Besides linguistic, anthropological and literary interpretation, there has been political interpretation also (in AE). The members can go through and find out. I invited for separate discussion, only to concentrate in the subject-matter, as I have also invited Tamilarchi Yahoo. Group, which always holds that IVC is Tamil one. ------------- History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past. |
Posted By: Azat
Date Posted: 09-Sep-2007 at 07:00
Debate on authors of Indus Valley civilization had nothing to do with Aryan or Dravidian words and terminologies involved .
It is question whether the people who authored this greatest civilization had skulls like Scythian Jats or Tamilian Thevers .
Science through Hemphill and others have shown that these people had crania like Jats not Tamilian type ,it is so simple .
One wonders how Tamilians enters in this picture ?
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Posted By: pumaaa123
Date Posted: 09-Sep-2007 at 07:46
Which site is that? there are as many possible sites that speak as they Want. but less reflect the factual history.
To state origin as in the topic, other than literature evidence of India it requires substantiation from present population of sind-baloch region.
The brahui language has approx. 15% of phrases that is used in tamil language like palam, kalam etc. Brahui speakers are small sized population which is still existing after facing number of external influence by all means. Moreover the region is known for extreme presian/arabic influence and because of such reasons tracking back to the root is stiff. Together there are atleast 3 languages in the belt that can be classified under proto-south indian lingual group.
Even in the case of tamil which has rich literature/documented history mostly dating around 500 BC dont have any text/inscription in existence prior to it. So again relating becomes stiff. ------------- |
Posted By: Azat
Date Posted: 09-Sep-2007 at 08:26
Very True.
Do you know who are the oldest inhabitants in this region ?
Jats or Brahui????
First and foremost question is whether brahuis are a native of this region and are older than Jats ?
Fact which may surprise a few is that Jats are oldest inhabitants of Balochistan not Brahuis.
Second and most important direct evidence is the presence of Scythian skulls not of Tamilians .
Brahuis are nomads that came from other areas and are also present in other countries like Eastern BanglaDesh ,Turkmenistan ,Iran etc.
Had Indus valley Civilization been related to Tamilian it must have shown some of its elements in Tamilian culture .
On the contrary elements of that culture is well preserved in many Jat groups.
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Posted By: SpartaN117
Date Posted: 09-Sep-2007 at 13:13
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@Azat Nothing is known about the IVC culture, so I am quite amazed how you can compare the IVC culture to Todays cultures. There are many theories about the IVC people, but in order to support this alleged mass migration to modern India, you need to take into account the population of Pakistan. In recorded history, there are no references stating that the Pakistani people invaded the region of Pakistan. The people of Pakistan have lived there for as far as records go back. So in order to state that the IVC people are not Pakistanis, but Indians, you need to solve the issue of the Pakistani peoples origin. You might also want to note that White Nationalists and Black Nationalists claim they are the descendants of the IVC people. All this is made so much easier for these groups as nothing conclusive is known about the people of IVC. The right approach would be to look at the people who inhabit the Indus valley Today, and consider the fact that they have always inhabited the region. I dont understand why people cant see this. ------------- http://www.PakHub.Info - PakHub.Info Reclaiming Pakistans Identity Join Us |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Sep-2007 at 02:25
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I do not know why Pakistanis should claim IVC heritage having converted to Islam. Pakistanis, no doubt can claim IVC, because the areas is now in Azat has said: “Debate on authors of It is question whether the people who authored this greatest civilization had skulls like Scythian Jats or Tamilian Thevers . Science through Hemphill and others have shown that these people had crania like Jats not Tamilian type ,it is so simple . One wonders how Tamilians enters in this picture ?” Definitely, Aryans and Dravidians are connected with IVC, ever since it was discovered. With terminologies only much of the debate was carried on. Why you mention only “Scythian Jats or Tamilian Thevers”? Why not others? Any importance is given to them or their castes? If caste is taken into consideration, why not Brahmins, Khatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudrs? Tamils as Dravidians, definitely claim over IVC. |
Posted By: bilal_ali_2000
Date Posted: 10-Sep-2007 at 08:43
You say that as Pakistanis converted to Islam therefore they cannot claim the Indus Valley culture. Man get real. You expect us to totally follow something which was done some 5,000 years ago. Things change and we adopted to it and accepting Islam was one of such things. It is like saying that the Chinese have lost their civilization because some of them accepted Bhuddism. We liked Islam because it touched our hearts and therefore we converted to it. And anyone many of the practices of the Indus Valley civilization are followed in those regions our bull carts are the same, our flat bottomed ferry boats are the same, the bangles our women wear are the same, the staetite beads that which the faqirs of that region wear are still the same that which were manufactured there 5000 years ago. The priest king of mohenjodaro was wearing the same type of designs which the sindhis today wear. If Dravidians can have claim over the region then i ask them that where was the Indus Valley Civilization in their lore. Before the Indus Valley Civilization was discovered it was pretty much a part of the folklore of that region which talked of a huge city right where the Indus Valley cities were discovered. And to those that say that IVC was dravidian because of Aryan Invasion Theory then i ask them to please go and read what their pet theory is about and just realize that on which sand foundations they are making the foundations of their houses on. And to the one who says that jats are of indo-scyhtian origin. To him i say that jats are definetly not of Indo scythian origin because they find their mention in the oldest Indian literature and within the non-AIT we know that it was the Scythians who split off from Indo=ARryan not the other way around. The Jats are much older than Scythians and Scythians may have had come from Jats not the other way around. |
Posted By: Azat
Date Posted: 10-Sep-2007 at 10:42
There are many aspects of IVC culture that are well known .we will see that during our discussion in this thread.
No , these people are living in the same land Pakistan and North western India from IVC times till today ..Contribution from the foreign lands is minimal or you may say negligible as compared to vast population of Indus Valley.
Who said Pakistani people are invaders? ,They are the real author of this civilization .Point is It was a greater nation than present boundaries of Pakistan and included areas of Northwestern India also .
Except for present people of these areas all other claims are bogus as they are disapproved when tested scientifically.
Very True ,but we have to omit certain groups who are a confirmed later arrival Like Indo Greeks or Mongols etc.
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Posted By: Azat
Date Posted: 10-Sep-2007 at 12:11
What's that got to do with IVC.Culture and traditions as pointed out Bilal matches with present population of these areas rather than Tamilians or Keralites.
With terminologies only much of the debate was carried on. Does not mean anythying.
Why not others? Any importance is given to them or their castes? If caste is taken into consideration, why not Brahmins, Khatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudrs? Tamils as Dravidians, definitely claim over IVC. |
Posted By: Azat
Date Posted: 10-Sep-2007 at 12:25
Very well explained.
Agree with you Bilal.
The only problem is you too have been taken in by these terms Aryan Scythian.
Aryan was not a racial term at all.Scythian was a general term used for Jats along with other groups .
I agree Jats are original inhabitants who were later called Aryans and Scythian by others.These terms are just used in confusing manners ,It will be clear during the course of our discussion .
I was first eager to see what evidence Tamilians have in support of their claim against the scientific proofs of Hemphill and others.
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Posted By: Azat
Date Posted: 10-Sep-2007 at 22:09
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Reminder to all those who say Tamilinas were authors of Indus Valley Civilization .. Can they present a single........ even a single evidence that can give foundation to their claim over IVC ???
Otherwise let us leave this civilization for the people whose ancesstors founded this great civilization .
Waiting ...
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Sep-2007 at 23:36
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there is no evidence of it all, its like saying English were the builder of the Greek civilization. People can claim whatever they want. The truth is Tamils had no influence in the region of pakistan or north india. |
Posted By: bilal_ali_2000
Date Posted: 12-Sep-2007 at 17:09
| Professor Hassan Daani has categorically stated that there is no element of Indus Valley Civilization in South India. If South Indians were the builders of Indus Valley Civilization then some thing should have carried over from there but we find no traces of IVC in South India. There are in Malabar, there are in Gujrat but not in South India. Even urbanization in South India happens much much later after the end of the Indus Valley Civilization. That is why he has serious objections to the Dravidian Theory of the Indus Script. So to my tamilians friends who are waiting for the Dravidians characteristics of the Indus Valley Civilization to be proved my advice to them is that they shouldn't hold their breaths for it. And about the scythian question scythians were a central asian nomadic people who eat their dead and were an Iranian people (at least their elite spoke an Iranian language) and whoever says that jats are scyhtians, well his notion is out of date. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 02:02
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Asko Parpola has discussed elaborately about the issue in the following site:
http://www.harappa.com/script/parpola16.html - http://www.harappa.com/script/parpola16.html
Then he concludes:
"There are several structural and lexical Dravidisms even in the Rgveda, the earliest preserved text collection, pointing to the presence of Dravidian speakers in Northwest India in the second millennium B.C. The 25 Dravidian languages spoken at present form the second largest linguistic family of South Asia. Until recently, about one quarter of the entire population has spoken Dravidian, while the speakers of Austro-Asiatic, the third largest linguistic family of long standing in South Asia, numbered just a few per cent. The Indus language is likely to have belonged to the North Dravidian sub-branch represented today by the Brahui, spoken in the mountain valleys and plateaus of Afghanistan and Baluchistan, the core area of the Early Harappan neolithic cultures, and by the Kurukh spoken in North India from Nepal and Madhya Pradesh to Orissa, Bengal and Assam".
There are other scholars also, who still hold the IVC script could be read in Dravidian language, particularly, in Tamil. Why such possibility should be there when we are away from the site of IVC? As you have changed during 100-200 years, you can forget the past, but we cannot.
We Dravidians still respect our past and continue it exhibited in culture.
Do Muslims or Pakistanis, as you claim do that?
We respect the Buddhism also. In fact, Buddhis are our friends.
But what is happening in the land of IVC / Pakistan? Just this the current news:
Pakistani militants try to blow up Buddha carving Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:42PM IST (Reuters) By Hameedullah Khan MINGORA, There was, however, no damage to the image of the sitting Buddha carved into a 40-metre high rock in mountains 20 km north of Mingora, a town in the scenic Swat valley, northwest of the capital, A group of masked-men tried to destroy the carving on Tuesday, said provincial archaeology department official Aqleem Khan. "Militants drilled holes in the rock and filled them with dynamite and blew it up," Khan said on Wednesday. "The explosion damaged the upper part of the rock but there was no damage to the image itself," he told Reuters. Buddhism spread through northern Khan compared the attack on the carving to the destruction of two giant standing Buddha statues in Bamiyan province in The Taliban blew up the two ancient statues carved into a cliff face saying they were offensive to Islam, despite appeals from around the world, including from Muslim leaders, that they be saved. "It's just like the way the Taliban used to behave," he said. Khan said there were no arrangements to guard the site in the Jehanabad area in the Swat valley. Police had been informed of the attack, he said. As in other parts of northwest There have also been several attacks on security forces in the valley in recent months. Last week, militants blew up about 60 music, video and cosmetics stalls in a market in the valley after their owners ignored warnings to close their businesses that the Islamists deemed un-Islamic. Moderate Pakistanis are dismayed by the growing influence of militants pushing their austere interpretation of Islam, mostly in ethnic Pashtun tribal areas in the northwest, in a process known as "Talibanisation". http://in.reuters.com/article/southAsiaNews/idINIndia-29479620070912%20 - |
Posted By: bilal_ali_2000
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 05:48
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All that you have referenced is the same ting that which i have heard a million times before from my Dravidian friends. All it is coulda, woulda, shoulda... whateva!!! I have actually read Asko Parpola work on the Indus script and you should have no illusions about his Dravidian readings because at best he could only offer readings of a few group of symbols not even a single full line of text was read fully. And just as many scholars swear that they could read the language of the script as vedic sanskrit so should we just take their word for it. The barometer of the correctness of a reading is whether it is able to read all the available material in a consistent way and so far despite decades of work the Dravidian theory falls short. Yes we have changed who doesn't by the way it was not that long ago that South Indian women used to go around topless but as i have said the indus valley culture survives among the Pakistani people right up to this day which is curiously absent among the south indians and what little there is its from a much later borrowing from the north. As for us Pakistani's getting in touch with our history look around on this forum and see that how much Pakistani are proud of their history in general and IVC in particular the only reason you don't find IVC as the main cultural element of Pakstani's is mainly because of religous reasons as many muslims refuse to even believe that there existed a world before Islam, or they don't realize its significance and because they think that history is a dull topic and who could blame them with this current repulsive system of formal education. And on a parting note does anyone have any serious refutation for Hassan Dani's (Subcontinents most decorated archeologist) points i have answers to the points which he has raised against the Aryan authorship of IVC but does anyone have answers to his points raised against the Dravidian theory. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2007 at 07:47
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See his stand here:
"All that you have referenced is the same ting that which i have heard a million times before from my Dravidian friends. All it is coulda, woulda, shoulda... whateva!!!"
But he is asking for books!
"I have actually read Asko Parpola work on the Indus script and you should have no illusions about his Dravidian readings because at best he could only offer readings of a few group of symbols not even a single full line of text was read fully. And just as many scholars swear that they could read the language of the script as vedic sanskrit so should we just take their word for it. The barometer of the correctness of a reading is whether it is able to read all the available material in a consistent way and so far despite decades of work the Dravidian theory falls short"
Whatever the differences one have with other scholars, none canforget his contribution of publication of two volumes of IVC scripts one for India and another for your Pakistan.
Earlier Iravatham Mahadevan prepared the Concordance.
As a Pakistani or as a Muslim, you read in your own way, but you should tell the methdology and how they have been deciphered.
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Posted By: Azat
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2007 at 12:36
If you read Hasan Dhani than you might have known his views also about these people whom he says Central Asian .
If you believe that Indus valley people were orignal Aryan than you are simply wrong .People of Indus area and later scythic group had same ethnic background but Scythian term was later confined to nomadic people on or beyond Himalayas than settled agriculturist of Indus region.
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Posted By: bilal_ali_2000
Date Posted: 25-Sep-2007 at 16:56
Pofesso Hassan Dani is a world renowned archaeologist but that doesn't mean that he is a cultural anthropologist. I only pointed towards his opinion as an archaeologist of there archaeologically being no evidence of IVC in the south. And Even if the Aryan Invasion theory is correct then i still don't see that how these Jats can be Scythians because the Jats find mention in the oldest Indian literature and the Indians always ditinguished between them and the Scythians which they called Shakas. As for me being wrong about the Indus civilization being Aryan well we'll see that how the situation stands in the few coming years with new evidence emerging with each new dig which seems to point out the Aryan identity of IVC. I am working no such topic the decipherment of the Indus script as Sanskrit and as you can see in my "IVC script" thead that i have made some progress there. |
Posted By: Azat
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2007 at 03:27
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You are very right that Jats find mention in the oldest indian literature so only I say they are not Aryans .
The basic confusion in history starts with a notion that Aryans were some distinct race that moved in mass .
Facts to the contrary is Aryan was a religious term that was applied to people who adopted Vedic FAITHS .
IndianS didn't follow vedic faith or Sanskrit language earlier so they were not Aryans .
but LATER THEY ADOPTED VEDIC FAITH AND ITS NATIVE Brahmans learnt Vedas and the Initial followers of this new religion were Jats of north west so they were the initial Aryans IN India .later Vedas were totally integrated with native Indian Shiva Worship of Jats and other native faith of austroloids and vedism continued its march towards east .So as far as Ino Pak areas are concerned Jats were first followers of vedism and so they wer first Aryans but Non Aryans earlier .Later people of GANGATIC region also adopted these faith and they also called their land Aryavarta .
So Aryan Invasion theory is not valid the vedic preachers were very few(may have been Scythians themselves ) ,but later arrival of vedic ways of life is too obvious to ask an explanation .
I will show you why these Jats and Scythians were from same stock but first let me clear your doubt about Indians being orignal Aryans ...
Have you read the link about Indica given by IKKI specially for you ...
Just Check ...Where is the country of Aryans?? Is it in India or outside India so late as in appox.300 bc.??
http://www.mssu.edu/projectsouthasia/history/primarydocs/Foreign_Views/GreekRoman/Megasthenes-Indika.htm - http://www.mssu.edu/projectsouthasia/history/primarydocs/Foreign_Views/GreekRoman/Megasthenes-Indika.htm
Now to account for the rivers being so numerous, and the supply of water so superabundant, the native philosophers and proficients in natural science advance the following reasons:--They say that the countries, which surround India--those of the Skythians and Baktrians and also of the Aryans--are more elevated than India, so that their waters, agreeably to natural law, flow down together from all sides to the plains beneath, where they gradually saturate the soil with moisture, and generate a multitude of rivers.
Look here Megasthenes knew and has written so clearly that Aryans are inhabitants of Iran not India.There are clear records in Vedas which explains when and how Indian learnt Vedas who was the first person from India who first converted to Vedism and hence became Aryan but a section among Indian In order to prove their orignal native Indentity keep on trying that aryans were Indians and Sanskrit was a Indian Language .
Most Important thing for your research if You want to decipher Indus Script keep Sanskrit at an arms length from Indus Script.
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Posted By: SuN.
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2007 at 12:15
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True. Sanskrit is not at all related to IVC scripts.
------------- God is not great. |
Posted By: CHAUDRY
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2007 at 16:56
U mean in the vedas? i didn't know that.
Wasn't it still not 100% confirmed, it was the jats the'r talking about?
can u quote?
As far as i know, the origin of the jats is still shrouded in mistery (in other words: unknown).
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Posted By: bilal_ali_2000
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 00:06
Er..... i am actually making quite good progress by assuming Sanskrit as the IVC language. And there can be no denying that the subcontinentals are as Aryan as the Iranians perhaps even more so. You cannot miss that if you read the Vedas (which i have) where they frequently refer to themselves as Aryans. And trust me my friend that since i am donating many precious days of my life to deciphering the IVC script as Sanskrit i have much reason to believe that the IVC was Aryan and Aryans were indigenous to the Sub-Continent because i have studied a great deal about it and it will be i who will suffer for any of my wrong assumptions. Azat the Indians also called themselves Aryans a lot but they didn't based their whole identity on it unlike the Iranians, there the word only identified a more general meaning as "noble" if megasethes had stayed with Indians long enough he would also have noticed that they also somtimes referred to themselves as Aryans although in a much general sense . |
Posted By: bilal_ali_2000
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 00:22
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 00:57
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Speaking of Dani, heres an interview.
http://www.harappa.com/script/danitext.html - http://www.harappa.com/script/danitext.html ------------- |
Posted By: bilal_ali_2000
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 01:21
Yes i have read it. And Sparten why haven't you replied to my PM. Are you dropping out of the correspondence? |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 01:26
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Sorry Bilal, been busy, lots of work these days. Give me till the weekend yaar. ------------- |
Posted By: bilal_ali_2000
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 01:37
Ok i understand. Take your time and keep i mind that there is no pressure, we both will keep this correspondence at our own leisure. |