Plato`s Atlantis

C

I don't really see that there are so many or major contradicitions as you/others suggest. Some of the contradictions are not really contradictions. Some contradicitions don't seem very big deal to me. Just because there may be some seeming contradicitions doesn't/shouldn't change the fact that the account has been verified and Atlantis has been found. I can't completely answer a couple but consider that it is only a couple of minor not-yet-explained-seeming-contradictions versus my paper of more than over [40?+] matches of most of the details of the Atlantis account with Tiahuanaco/South America.
(If it is such a major deal we better make a concise list of all your contradicitions because i am finding it hard to even remember what they all are (due to time/etc pressures).)
As i said there is no contradiction i can see between "Critias/410" and "Timaeus/590" dates because both come from Solon/Sonchis/Amasis2/Sais time (the account more or less says the 900/800 years was before Amasis 2).
I don't agree with your conclusion that the war/sinking must be after Sais/800 in one of the 2 parts just because Sais had records of it. The account doesn't say that it is just your reading of it (and i have never heard anyone else suggest same). And again the date is not 9000/8000 but 900/800.

I did not mean that Hephaistos and Ptah 900(0) are definfitely connected but just a possible explanation/connection, & yes it may be wrong or "confusing the issue".
There may have been about 900 years from Menes/1st dynasty to 12th dynasty? (the 900 years of Atlantis account was from 12th dynasty to 26th dynasty as i showed re Herodotus' Moeris (& Hercules).)
The godkings are not before Menes but are contemporary with dynastic history (though they are also analgous to the 10 patriarchs before/after the Flood), and the figures aren't necessarily all consecutive?, and the figures are not literal but code. Ptah's reign is from 1st dynasty (or maybe from Babel or Noah or Adam). Ra's/Re's reing is from 3rd/4th/5th dynasty. The godkings dynasty also seem to be pairs. Ptah & Ra is old kingdom, Shu & Geb are Mid Kingdom / 12th dynasty as in the el-Arish inscription (and as in 3 hermes Set Shu Thoth roughly ~ Old Kingdom, Mid Kingdom, New Kingdom). The gods reigned down to time of Merneptah/"Menes". Ptah (memphis, 1st god) = merneptah/meneptah "=" Menes/Min (memphis, 1st king) = Chem = Mendes = Pan (1st god). 3 groups gods Pan/8, Hercules/12/900, Dionysos/3rd ~ roughly 3 kingdoms. Hercules 900 = Moeris 900 = Atlantis 900 before 26th dynasty.
The godkings may also/alterantively be 10 ages like the 10 worlds/world-trees/trees of Eddaic, and the 10 avataras of Indian, and other nations versions too.

Your contradictions points are interesting and clever and valid (and may be good to resolve a couple) but as i said I think people are too critical like that of sources, and there are also many far more interesting details/things in the account than just those few "boring" textual cirticism-like points (no offense to you at all meant). I don't agree that the Timaeus and Critias are separate.
I don't agree that we have to be critical or its blind faith. The reigning orthodox scholarship is already too critical like that. My approach was to as objectively/balanced-as-possible try to find if there was historical match for the account or not, rather than being prejudicially so too critical as modern scholars are. Moderns are too critical/deconstructive of ancient sources and too trusting of modern theories/reconstructions/etc, where-as i tend to vice-versa trust ancient sources more than modern theorists. Nothing is perfect so we will always find real or seeming faults.
My thesis/theory of Atlantis = South America/Tiahaunaco does not ignore any details of "Plato's" account (or say they are wrong) nor add any to.
It is not true to say no evidence. Please see my paper on my blog as it is too long to post it all here and waste of time/effort me having to rewrite it all.

Atlantis &/or Deucalion flood was sometime between Cecrops & Erechtheus (before Theseus). I did not know about the Athena vs Poseidon (thanks).
I will have to re-read the account if/when i have time to find answer to whether it says the events were in that or any other time. (But problem is i am going on strike (web/net-wise etc) after today as i am fed-up with stupid windows 8/7 problems, stupid new laptop problems, fluoridated/posioned water porblems, and many other "life"/love-lack hell problems i am suffering....)
The account idea seems to be that the events were in the pre-Greek Minoan/Mycenaean/linear period and that that culture was devastated and linear writing lost and there was then the Greeks later like modern archaeology/history has it? Though problem is Minoan/Mycenaean ended after Atlantis war/sinking.
12th dyn/Moeris/Hercules/900/Atlantis war/sinking -> Saites/Hyksos/Minoan -> Trojan/Mycenaean -> sea peoples/19th/20th dyn/dorians/heracilds.

Gerald Massey's book is 'Book of Beginnings'. "Callisthenes & Phanodemus relate that the Athenians were the fathers of the Saitae. But Theopomus, on the contrary, affrims that they were a colony of the Saitae. Eusebius chronicles the tradition of the arrival of Kadmus with a company of Saitae, who founded Athens & Boeotian Thebes. They were of Egypt but he thought they last came from Sidon." Compare Atlantis account and Herodotus on Io/Europa.

Sorry i didn't know there had been other replies (this topic being hidden in a sub-forum). There are some good/interesting points.

Toyomotor: for evidence/proof of South America see my blog article, or see Jim Allen's Atlantis in Bolivia site, or see satellite images of geoglyphs etc in Altiplano & area of Tiahuanaco/Titicaca.
As Sidney said: Atlantis/Atlas is Greek name/word. The Atlantis account says that the Greeks reverse translated from Egyptians who translated from original Atlantean. So Atlantis may not be the/a connected historical name. Greek Atlas could possibly be related to Hittite Alalu(s) and Biblical Adam? The Aztec A-tl/A-tonatiuh may be related to E-a or to Atlantis/Atlas / Alalus / Adam. All languages/myths ultimately come from one common original, but we make alot of mistakes in the process of finding the true cognates of names/words.
There may be connections with Atlas as the founder of astrology and the temple in shape of the spheres [Hyperborea?] (etc.)

Mountain Man: there are many real historical examples of hubris throughout world & history, are they all made-up too?

Beorna:
- Atlantis account 9000 & 8000 years is actually 900 and 800 years. Atlantis 900(0) years before Amasis 2 matches Herodotus' Moeris (& Hercules) 900 years before. The 9000 years = 900 years, and the 9000 years = 9000 months both reconcile with a 10 month calendar year (so it is not 1200s bc). Compare Hyperboreans lived a 1000 years is really 100 years. (See my blog article for more details as i can't post it all here.)
- Herodotus said Moeris (12th dynasty) was 900 years before [Amasis 2] (like Atlantis was 900(0) years before Amasis 2), so date of Middle Kingdom is not after 2100bc but before ca 1400s bc, and New Kingdom was not since 1500 bc but 200 years after Middle Kingdom. Josephus (and Herodotus) said Menes was 1300 years before Solomon/19th dynasty, which means 1st dynasty was not more than 2300 bc, not 3000 bc. Joseph was in the 3rd-4th dynasty so Old Kingdom was not 2700bc.
- Minoan ended after Atlantis sinking because Sais 800 after Atlantis 900 seems to match Anysis 700 after Salitis/Saites [800] after Moeris 900. Hyksos in Crete. Greek chronology also has Theseus/Minotaur after Atlantis (after Cecrops, before Theseus).
- You may be right that there may be melting together of different incidents. Zangger thought that the Trojan war was Atlantis war. The sea peoples may be the "Pelasgians" of Sea Powers/Thalassocracies just after the Trojan war.
My timeline is Atlantis -> Hyksos/Minoan -> Trojan war -> Sea peoples/Heraclids/Dorians.


Sidney
You might like the 'Atlantis is not speculative history' on Historum forum since they all there also believe that Plato just made it up. (I'm not following that thread/topic (or forum) anymore myself though since my last post and the mess i got myself in there.) Atlantis has been found/verified, other details of the account are also being more verified too.
There is no contradiction between the Critias and Timaeus dates because they were both from Sais/Amasis/Solon.
I myself don't see a great problem with Sais having records of an event just a 100 years before (900 years Atlantis/Moeris/Hercules, 800 years Sais/Saites/Sailitis).
He didn't say Athens city was swallowed up, he said the warriors were swallowed up and the spring was clogged up?
You make very good/clever/true points, but i think people are too critical of sources like that.
Gerald Massey mentions 2 or 3 different traditions of the foundings of Sais, Athens and a Phoenician city (can't remember which of Sidon or Tyre or Byblos) in different orders.
Atlantis war/sinking was between Cecrops (founded Athens) and Erechtheus (before Theseus).
There was/were pre-Greek periods of Greece/Athens (Actaeus?)?
The timeline seems to go Atlantis (& Athens0/1) founded -- many generations -- Athens1/2 founded by Cecrops c 900 ya -- Atlantis war c 900 ya -- [Atlantis sinking?] -- Sais founded 800 ya -- 800yrs -- 26th dyn/Solon.
Hephaistos in the Account may be Ptah who is also connected with 900(0) years in god-kings dynasty? (Ptah's 900 years was from 1st dynasty down/forward; Atlantis 900 years was from Sais up/back.)
But you may be right about some confusion of dates, since there also seemed to me that may be some confusion of when the war/sinking took place since on one hand it seems to be about time of end of 12th dynasty while on other hand seems to be about time of Sea Poeples (19th/20th dyn) (& the cocaine & tobacco found in mummies).
(Similarily i'm not sure if Sesostris of Colchis is 12th dynasty Senusert or 19th dynasty Shishak/Ramses 2.)
The bit about Dropides/Critias / father/grandfather just seems to be uncertain/confused which way around, thats all.
Your name always reminds me of Sidney in 'Alias' and Sidney the author of great pyramid book (and 'Sargon the Magnificient' book), both are favourites of mine.

(link to blog is in profile i think. the paper is not written very well tho.)

Originally posted by Sidney According to the Timaeus; ... Plato's timeline is thus; Founding of Athens c.9590 C Founding of Sais c.8590 BC Atlantis invades and conquers most of Europe and Africa War between Athens and Atlantis preserved in Sais records. Athens triumphant and liberates countries under Atlantian rule. Athens is destroyed by earthquake and Atlantis sinks beneath the sea. It is clear from this that Plato never recorded that Atlantis was destroyed 9000 years before Solon, but placed the destruction of Atlantis after the foundation of Sais (ie after c.8590 BC0.

But this is contradicted in the Critais;

1. Plato records that Critais tells Socrates; -
"Let me begin by observing first of all, that nine thousand was the sum of years which had elapsed since the war which was said to have taken place between those who dwelt outside the Pillars of Heracles and all who dwelt within them; this war I am going to describe."

This is confirmed later; -
"Many great deluges have taken place during the nine thousand years, for that is the number of years which have elapsed since the time of which I am speaking;"

Critais was speaking c.410 BC, so here Plato is saying that the war between Athens and Atlantis occurred c.9410 BC. This directly contradicts his earlier timeline.

2. Plato records Critais saying;
"In the days of old the gods had the whole earth distributed among them by allotment. There was no quarrelling; for you cannot rightly suppose that the gods did not know what was proper for each of them to have, or, knowing this, that they would seek to procure for themselves by contention that which more properly belonged to others."..."Hephaestus and Athene, who were brother and sister, and sprang from the same father, having a common nature, and being united also in the love of philosophy and art, both obtained as their common portion this land [Athens],"..."And Poseidon, receiving for his lot the island of Atlantis."

He is thus saying that Athens and Atlantis were founded at the same time - when the gods were apportioned land (ie in 9590 BC)

But Plato also records Critais saying regarding the various kings and states under Atlantean control -

"All these and their descendants for many generations were the inhabitants and rulers of divers islands in the open sea; and also, as has been already said, they held sway in our direction over the country within the Pillars as far as Egypt and Tyrrhenia."

"For many generations, as long as the divine nature lasted in them, they were obedient to the laws....but when the divine portion began to fade away, and became diluted too often and too much with the mortal admixture, and the human nature got the upper hand,...[then] they were full of avarice and unrighteous power."

So the war between Athens and Atlantis occurred many generations after the gods had set up their countries (for, according to Critais, the gods don't argue). This contradicts Plato's Timaeus timeline - for if Athens and Atlantis were founded together then the date for the war c.9410 BC (c.180 years later) is not the 'many generations' that Plato represents.

4. In Timaeus Plato records that Athens and Atlantis were destroyed on the same night - Athens sinking beneath the ground and Atlantis sinking beneath the sea. However in Critais he records that - "Atlantis, which, as was saying, was an island greater in extent than Libya and Asia, and when afterwards sunk by an earthquake, became an impassable barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from hence to any part of the ocean.", but records of Athens - "For the fact is that a single night of excessive rain washed away the earth and laid bare the rock; at the same time there were earthquakes, and then occurred the extraordinary inundation, which was the third before the great destruction of Deucalion."

Here Plato is saying that Athens was flooded, contradicting the other narrative that it was swallowed up by the earth.


The part that does agree however is the one that says the war with Atlantis occurred after Sais was founded;
3. Plato tells us that the Egyptians recorded the names in the history of Athens while ancient Athens still survived, because - "the early Egyptians in writing them down had translated them into their own language". This had to be while ancient Athens still existed because after Athens was destroyed "any survivors [of the destruction], as I have already said, were men who dwelt in the mountains; and they were ignorant of the art of writing, and had heard only the names of the chiefs of the land, but very little about their actions." Critais' narrative therefore had to have been preserved while the Athenians still knew their history, and so before the war, if not the destruction, of Athens and Atlantis.

Critais' timeline seems to be;
Athens and Atlantis founded.
Many generations later Atlantis becomes corrupt and avarice.
Sais is either founded before the war, or before the destruction of Athens.
Athens and Atlantis go to war in c.9410 BC
Athens leads the war (and defeats Atlantis?)
Athens is flooded and Atlantis sinks beneath the sea.

Edited by Sidney - 13-Feb-2014 at 19:00

What have been done from Gobekli Tepe till now,Beorna?14-20000 years of human history have made us masters of nuclear energy&DNA engeeners!Where did it come from?!?What did make us

There are several curious points in the Atlantis myth. First, Atlantis shall have exist already 1000 years before the foundation of Athens. Athens itself shall have existed already 9000 year before Solon. Egypt is said to be 1000 years younger than Athens.
These story was told to Solon by a priest from the temple of Neith in Sais.
Platon has this story from Kritias as it seems. Kritias lived between 460 and 400. Platon was born around 430. He probably wrote his Kritias in the 350th. So what did Platon really know? Kritias itself shall have heard the story from his grandfather, who got the story from his father Dropides, who shall have been Archon in 593/2. Solon shall have lived between 640 and 560. So Dropides was nearly as old as Solon. That makes 180 years between the birth of Kritias and his great-grandfather. That's a too great difference to be true. It can only match if Solon lived at a later date, which some scientists suppose.
So let us take a year 590 BC (the suppose year of Solon's visit in Egypt) for the story Platon is telling us. As I wrote above, the story was told by a priest of neith in Sais. This town is settled since 4000 BC, but a temple is just know in the Middle Kingdom (after 2100 BC). It was the temple of Nb.T SW, which is perhaps identical with Neith (Nj.T). She is known already in the 1st dynasty around 3000 BC, but she got more prestige in the new Kingdom since 1550 BC.

We have now the problem, that Platon writes, that Egypt existed already 8000 years before Solon and Athens 1000 years before Egypt and that Atlantis even 1000 years more.
So Atlantis evolved around 10600 BC, during the Dryas, a time when the Tundras returned, a stadial. Shall we really expect a great empire, that had conquered nearly the whole mediterranian Sea during the Dryas? If we follow Platon, Athens existed since 9600 BC. As far as we know today, are there neolithic artefacts already from 7500 BC, a city, especially one which could defeat a great power like Atlantis, existed not before the mycenian era. Egypt, one of the oldest cultures is as well not 8600 years old. It goes back to 4000 BC, but as i said, the old kingdom doesn't start before 2700 and even the 1st dynasty is not older than 3000 BC.

So we see, before we search for Atlantis, we should solve all these problems. One solution would be to change the 8000-10,000 years for lunar month, which would give us a time between the 14th and 13th century. If we date Solon later, the 12th century.

This would bring us to the sea people era. If we remember Thera, the end of the mycenian and minoan era, then in Platon's story about Atlantis (or in those of the priests of Sais) it is possible, that several incidents melted together in a single story, like we have it in the Artus-legend or those of the Nibelungs, if these story isn't completely invented and an allegory.

Originally posted by toyomotor I'm happy to accept the city of Atlantis could have once existed.   I lean towards those theories that it was located somewhere on an Atlantic shoreline, or close to that ocean. I would extend that to the Mediterranean Sea, but I couldn't accept South America.   The references to the Pillars of Hercules, modern day Straits of Gibraltar, could have placed it somewhere in Spain, North Africa or even Portugal.   Would someone enlighten me, Atlantis comes from which language?   Was it Phoenecian?

I'm happy to accept the city of Atlantis could have once existed.

Edited by toyomotor - 12-Feb-2014 at 22:52

Sorry to report  our member and a good friend  Ulf  Richter has passed away  he will be sadly missed.

http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_ topic;f=1;t=001578;p=1#000009

I still haven't got the slightest idea what the fuss is all about. I made both Atlantis threads available in two Forums, in an additional one that might attract members that are interested in alternative and speculative history, and you complain, instead of being grateful.
And if you have complaints against narrow-minded and one-eyed administrators, do it via PM to other AE staff and not in the thread here.