Hello all.  My interest is in finding Atlantis and I do believe in, after all my  studies that it  was Herodutus `s Tartesso.

Timaeus

But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.

I have found such good infomation  on this site like this one, and wonder what others think of  Plato `s writings on Timaeus and Critias.

http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=ancient_iberia - http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=ancient_iberia

Atlantis is a myth.

Plato used the myth of Atlantis to promote the "Superiority" of Athens (which was at the moments of his writings in full decadence). As told by Plato, Atlantis' armies conquered Libya, Egypt and regions as far as Italy, but were defeated by Athens.

In a more scientific approach, Atlantis can be the extrapolation of the Santorini Island's Volcanic eruption - the black cloud - according to the legend - be seen by all of greeces' coastal cities.

Another theory is that Atlantis is based on the Cretan Civilization - Minoan.

Cheers and don't believe the hype.

• It is clearly beyond the columns of Herakles, wether you consider them to be the strait of Gibraltar or certain columns in Gadir or elsewhere in Andalusia. It is not far away from them either and it surely exerted control of the Atlantic trade to the precious tin mines of NW Iberia and SW Britain, apart of accessing easily many other minerals in its SW Iberian hinterland.
  
• Island: actually it is a peninsula but the oldest sources describe it as a perirruthos, which is just something surrounded by flow (water). The perception for any foreign sailor that could come from the Mediterranean would be that of an island, actually two because the smaller peninsula south of Estremadura is also part of the same civilization.
• The capital was on a mountain in the center of the island. It was: Zambujal stands on an elevation at the approximate center of the Estremadura peninsula.
• There were 10 kings: VNSP displays exactly 10 neo-megalithic tombs of special "artificial cave" design that could well mark the pantheons of the 10 royal clans.
  
• The plant of the city is complex: the plant of Zambujal fortifications are extremely complex and have been reformed once and again in diferent periods. Further approximation to the Platonian description could be subject to wider excavations but could also be partly an adition of the Eastern historians. The distance to the sea or rather the wide stuary of the Tagus is almost as Plato described it in any case.
• They fought against the Greeks (Athenians): the Middle Bronze Age (1500-1300 BCE) shows a clear "Hellenization" of El Argar that is rather transparently rival of VNSP. I believe that El Argar was supported by Mycenean Greeks and that can explain not just the appearence of Greeks in the narration of Atlantis but also the western travels of Herakles in other legends, which are telling the same in a diferent manner.
  
• The famous catastrophe: I used to think that it was a metaphore of the Celtic invasions of Urnfields that are temporarily coincident with the vanishing of both VNSP and El Argar. But recently I reas about the devastating effects of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1755_Lisbon_earthquake - 1755 Lisbon Earthquake and I think otherwise now.
  

Iberia in the Early and Middle Bronze Age (c. 1800-1300 BCE), showing Atlantis (VNSP), the rival ("Hellenized" after 1500) civilization of El Argar, other important cultures and the location of the strategic tin mines.


Another map from the municipality of Torres Vedras site, showing the shape that the Estremaduran penisula had in the late Chacolithic, much more "insular" than nowadays.

sedamoun qoute-Plato used the myth of Atlantis to promote the "Superiority" of Athens.

I don,t think it was the city of  athens the priest was refering to but the country men  of the hellenes, a colony, because in  timaeus critias says=

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke.

maju  I believe this was the atlantian war  ( men of the sea of atlas ) and it was recorded in egyptain history in 600 bc.

600bc

The Egyptian Pharaoh Necho commissioned Semitic-Phoenician mariners to voyage round Africa.  Three years later they returned to report that the continent is surrounded by sea except at the point in Egypt where it joins Asia.

The Egyptians in 600 B.C. recorded the existence of Atlantis.  This alleged myth was passed down through Solon to Plato who recorded it in 400 B.C.  An epochal flood is believed to have swallowed up Atlantis.

Maju, your theroy  is good, what were the names of these kings?  Plato  writes, all these kings and their descendants for many generations were the inhabitants and rulers of divers islands in the open sea. which make me think that the last of  the generations were in this war before  the final sinking.

Pharaoh Necho was of Sais , where Solon got the story from the priest of Sais. Seems to me if the egyptains were such great records keepers and could record a war before their own excistence they would have recorded this war. a event of such international importance.

 Alalia was a tremendous victory and it made a world-wide impression. The ancients understood very well the great significance of this naval battle to the Etruscans and Carthaginians, and rightly considered it an event of international importance. Apart from the victory of Pharaoh Rameses Ill in about 1200 B.C. over the Sea Peoples in a battle off the mouth of the Nile, it was the first great naval battle in history.

I guess we have to go by what was the meaning of the  word atlantis   means .Plato states the names  given were not the real names. So in describing this war gives the names of all of the men of the sea of atlas that rule the seas .

 Now in this island of Atlantis ( iberia) there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis ( the sea of atlas) had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one.

maju the story of atlantis all fits in like when the priest said -

Whereas just when you and other nations are beginning to be provided with letters and the other requisites of civilized life, after the usual interval, the stream from heaven, like a pestilence, comes pouring down, and leaves only those of you who are destitute of letters and education; and so you have to begin all over again like children, and know nothing of what happened in ancient times, either among us or among yourselves.

Timaeus

But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.

This is not clear. It is clear that Megalitism reached North Africa (Lybia) and that African imports reached Iberia, as well as amber from Scandinavia and probably other products from the Atlantic rim and parts of the Western Mediterranean.

The extent of VNSP civilization properly speaking is very small as you can see in the maps but their influx, specially in the Bell Beaker period, was much larger.

I don't know where you got that from: he's a semi-mythical character and it's doubtful that he and the other Tartessian kings ruled beyond some parts of Southern Iberia but I don't think he held control of half of the peninsula ever. Still Tartessos was probably the most powerful native state of Western Europe in its time. Yet the Phoenicians were able to destroy it and absorb the country into their colonial influence area.

 maju qoute-

I don't know where you got that from: he's a semi-mythical character and it's doubtful that he and the other Tartessian kings ruled beyond some parts of Southern Iberia but I don't think he held control of half of the peninsula ever. Still Tartessos was probably the most powerful native state of Western Europe in its time. Yet the Phoenicians were able to destroy it and absorb the country into their colonial influence area.

According to Herodotus, Arganthonios ruled Tartessia as king for 80 years, from 630 BC to 550 BC. Much of this Tartessian dynasty is told in legends, so no one knows what part is actually historical. He is said by the Greeks to have lived for 120 years while others state that he lived a longer 150 years. His empire consisted all of Andalucía and extended to the Cabo de la Nao (a cape east the Costa Blanca, south of the Gulf of Valencia). His empire was what possibly attracted Greek colonists to the Spanish coast. One of those colonies was Mainake, present day Málaga. Though the capital of Tartessia sank in the mouth of the swampy Guadalquivir River (and now is famously thought of to have been Atlantis), its ruins show great fortifications and columns though hard to see as it is under water. Herodotus records his death after a naval battle between the Greeks and a united fleet of Carthaginians and Etruscans. The battle was a Greek victory. But loosing over half of its fleet, the Greeks stopped challenging military dominance in the area and Tartessia, without an ally, became exposed to Carthaginian expansion.

Solon returned to Athens in the 550s BC

Mainake wasn't founded by Greeks but by Phoenicians

maju, I believe the phocaean and the phoeninician were two different groups of people.The phocaean were greeks

http://libro.uca.edu/stanislawski/Chap7.htm - http://libro.uca.edu/stanislawski/Chap7.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaeans - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaeans

According to Herodotus, the first Greek in Iberia was the adventurer Kolaios of Samos, who was blown off course and landed at Tartessos during the reign of Arganthonius. His reception was a warm one, and he returned to Greece with a cargo of 1,500 kilos of silver from the king, whose name itself meant "he of the silver land."  It is more likely that the voyage of Kolaios, about 2,300 kilometres each way, was actually planned with the fabulous Tartessian silver mines as the objective.

Traders from the Greek city of Phocaea followed, reaching Iberia around 600 BC to found the colonies of Rhode and Emporion ("market place") on the northeastern coast. The Greek presence was limited mainly to present-day Catalonia (place names ending in -oussa.) and did not penetrate the interior; they wanted trade, not conquest. Many places suggested as colonies were just small trading posts or landmarks; these include Mainake (Velez-Málaga), Hemeroskopeion (Denia), Alonis (Benidorm), and Akra-Leuke (Alicante).

Maju, what I am suggesting is that the battle of Alalia,( A battle with no official name)  the cities of Tartesso and, Manike were the bases for the story that the priest of Sais gave to Solon, that was recorded in egyptain history in 600bc.

http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/history3.html - http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/history3.html

Critias.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke.


It shall be the ancient city of Athens,

Phocaean ships were observed in Sardinian waters. Swiftly the Etruscan and Carthaginian vessels were manned and the combined fleet of 120 ships went out to meet the invaders. "The Phocaeans replied by manning their own vessels, also sixty in number, and sailed to meet the enemy off Sardinia," says Herodotus.

Now in this tale of Critias, he states that the atlantians had 12,000 ships  the same numbers as in Homers  tale of Troy.

 And you`ve got to remeber that Herodotus was the frist greek writer before Plato that wrote of the western colonies. 484bc to 425bc

Mauj qoute-I don't think so: the battle of Alalia isn't just a well known event for the Greeks but also involves a nation, the Phoenicians, that was even more familiar to the Egyptians than Greeks themselves.

That why the egyptians recorded it in their history 600 bc, from the phoenicians in 600bc . Athens had no over seas city states.The priest reffered to the hellen desendants and Critais made it Athens. I believe the priest was reffering to  the citizens of Mainike. 

Maju qoute- Besides, I don't understand why, if Tartessos was then independent and had a friendly relation with Greeks, would they fight against them (in the Carthaginian-Etruscan side).

They didn`t they protected Tartesso.What I am saying is the priest said it was a power gather into one, where as  Solon  combines this power into the word Atlantis ( the men of the sea of atlas ).

Timaeus

Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.

It was a battle over who would rule the seas.

Maju, there were many lost ancient civilizations in the ancient world.  However Critias and Plato places this lost civilization near the country now called Gades in their  time.If there was a power as you say in Iberia that could have control the mediteranean (c. 1600-1200. before the dark ages , then you would like  the theories and discoveries of  Gerogous Diaz.

http://discoveryatlantis.sytes.net/ - http://discoveryatlantis.sytes.net/

Absolutelly not! Your posts are most interesting and your knowledge on the matter makes them even more.

1. The main source is Plato, attributing the origin of the story to the Egyptians. Egyptians could have known via the Phoenicians or (as I believe) via the very Greeks (or Minoan Cretans), as Egypt and Crete had a strong commercial connection even before Phoenicians existed as such.
   
2. I believe that narration is paralleled by two of the legends of Herakles: Herakles against Geriones and Herakles and the Golden Apples of the Hesperides. The mythical figure of Herakles lives clearly in Mycenean Greece (c. 1600-1200 BCE), not in later times.
3. Atlantis is supposed to have been a major power able to carry war into the Mediterranean and defy the Greeks. Tartessos was a relatively small power and their only known battles were defensive against the Phoenicians, not the Greeks (and this is important). Instead VNSP had probably the ability to lead coalitions of Atlantic aborigin peoples against any invader. Greek presence is rather clear in rival El Argar and is possible among the difusse tribes of the SW Iberian Bronze Age (grabsystem tombs resemble strangely Mycenean ones).
   
4. VNSP geography is much better coincident with the Platonian description: capital city placed in a central mountain, 10 "royal tombs", appears to be a large island, has clear influence over other peoples, etc. Tartessos instead seems to be forced to fix in that description: small island, no mountain, no "royal tombs", no influence beyond Andalusia, no fight against Greeks...
5. Tartessos belongs to the Dark Ages and maybe to the Classical Period of Greece. In the Dark Ages, Greek power shrinked and they didn't carry on expeditions anywhere beyond the Aegean. In the Classical Ages they recorded their history, so we would know. VNSP instead belongs partly to the Mycenean Age and there is clear Mycenean influence in southern Iberia as to consider plausible that Greeks were involved in struggles there. Yet Greeks would not have kept memery of these wars in other way than through legends, what actually is the case.
   

Maju, I like your theory  Are you contributing this war to the Egyptian account of the sea people 1200bc?

  http://artsales.com/ARTistory/Ancient_Ships/17_sea_peoples.html - http://artsales.com/ARTistory/Ancient_Ships/17_sea_peoples.h tml

 Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits.

 We are close on where this land,or city could have been. however different on the timeline. What is really interesting are the ten tombs you refering to.Do you have anymore info?  Plato`s five set of  twins could have been dynasties. As Plato said they were not the real names  and twins also means together in strenght.

Timaeus

 Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.

The Greeks compared Tartessia to Atlantis and Hesperides and possibly Tartessia was Atlantis. Hearing all these rumours about silver, good life, and luxury, the Greeks named the isolated west Isles of the Blessed, Tartessos.

What also makes think it is the story of Tartesso, Herodotus is the only author before Plato to write of the western cities of Tarttesso , Manike and of this war. All the rest came after Plato. Plato must have study Herodoutus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus

• 6th milennium: Andalusian Neolithic
• c. 5000: Neolithic arrives to the SW
  
• c. 4800: Developement of earliest Megalithism
• c. 4700: Mediterranean Neolithic arrives at Eastern Iberia
• 3800-3000: Megalithism expands by the Atlantic, maybe with cod fishermen
• 3500-3000 early IE expansion in Eastern and Central Europe
  
• 3000-2600 BCE: Early Chalcolithic. Possible eastern influences favoring the developement of two civilizations in SE and SW Iberia. Commercial relations with far North and South. First "royal tombs" of neo-Megalithic style.
  
• 2600-2150 BCE: Two civilizations with fortified towns, some of them of considerable size, arise in the SE (Los Millares) and SW (VNSP). Megalithism expands into southern Iberia.
• C. 2600: Cycladian culture in the Aegean.
• C. 2400: Corded Ware culture: major IE expansion. Denmark and Germany lost to IEs.
  
• 2150 BCE: Arrival of Bell-Beaker.
• 2100-1900 BCE: Apogee of VNSP inside the Bell-beaker commercial context.
  
• C. 2000: possible date for Greeks migrating into Greece
  
• 1900-1800 BCE: Diversification of Bell-Beaker styles, other centers compete with VNSP.
  
• 1800-1500 BCE: Los Millares supplanted by nearby El Argar, which resembles a centralized state of relative large extension. Bronze Age with center at El Argar. First "cultural horizons" of the difuse "grabsystem people" in the SW. Formation of Cogotas I sepherd culture in the Plateau.
  
• C. 1800: Apogee of Minoan Crete (Palaces' phase)
  
• C. 1600: conquest of Crete by Mycenean Greeks (Cnossos' phase). Start of Mycenean period.
  
• 1500-1300 BCE: El Argar B: Hellenization of burial customs, Eastern beads found at nearby "Levante" region (Iberians), military colonization of La Mancha (Motillas), greater expansion of the "grabsystem people" around VNSP.
• C. 1450: Thera explosion.
  
• C. 1300 BCE: Celtic invasion in the NW (Urnfields). Abandonement of the VNSP cities, disgregation of El Argar in smaller city-states. Begining of the Atlantic Bronze complex. Tartessos is possibly founded a little later.
  
• C. 1200: Sea Peoples break lose over the Eastern Mediterranean. Start of the Dark Ages.
  
• C. 1100: Troy conquered. Phoenicians found Gadir and Carthague (claimed dates). 
  

Maju, this could be the area where the ten kings originated from.

 All these and their descendants for many generations were the inhabitants and rulers of divers islands in the open sea; and also, as has been already said, they held sway in our direction over the country within the Pillars as far as Egypt and Tyrrhenia.

Maju, I really like your Atlantis.  It would fit the ten kingdoms, however what do you make of this portion of land (facing the country which is now called the region of Gades in that part of the world)?

Thanks Maju,your theory is good, and does convince me that there could have been a  culture from the west, that invaded Athens around 1300 bc  before the Sea people.However what do make of this whole glorified city made with water channels and metals?

First of all they bridged over the zones of sea which surrounded the ancient metropolis, making a road to and from the royal palace. And at the very beginning they built the palace in the habitation of the god and of their ancestors, which they continued to ornament in successive generations, every king surpassing the one who went before him to the utmost of his power, until they made the building a marvel to behold for size and for beauty. And beginning from the sea they bored a canal of three hundred feet in width and one hundred feet in depth and fifty stadia in length, which they carried through to the outermost zone, making a passage from the sea up to this, which became a harbour, and leaving an opening sufficient to enable the largest vessels to find ingress. Moreover, they divided at the bridges the zones of land which parted the zones of sea, leaving room for a single trireme to pass out of one zone into another, and they covered over the channels so as to leave a way underneath for the ships; for the banks were raised considerably above the water. Now the largest of the zones into which a passage was cut from the sea was three stadia in breadth, and the zone of land which came next of equal breadth; but the next two zones, the one of water, the other of land, were two stadia, and the one which surrounded the central island was a stadium only in width. The island in which the palace was situated had a diameter of five stadia. All this including the zones and the bridge, which was the sixth part of a stadium in width, they surrounded by a stone wall on every side, placing towers and gates on the bridges where the sea passed in. The stone which was used in the work they quarried from underneath the centre island, and from underneath the zones, on the outer as well as the inner side. One kind was white, another black, and a third red, and as they quarried, they at the same time hollowed out double docks, having roofs formed out of the native rock. Some of their buildings were simple, but in others they put together different stones, varying the colour to please the eye, and to be a natural source of delight. The entire circuit of the wall, which went round the outermost zone, they covered with a coating of brass, and the circuit of the next wall they coated with tin, and the third, which encompassed the citadel, flashed with the red light of orichalcum.

The palaces in the interior of the citadel were constructed on this wise:-in the centre was a holy temple dedicated to Cleito and Poseidon, which remained inaccessible, and was surrounded by an enclosure of gold; this was the spot where the family of the ten princes first saw the light, and thither the people annually brought the fruits of the earth in their season from all the ten portions, to be an offering to each of the ten. Here was Poseidon's own temple which was a stadium in length, and half a stadium in width, and of a proportionate height, having a strange barbaric appearance. All the outside of the temple, with the exception of the pinnacles, they covered with silver, and the pinnacles with gold. In the interior of the temple the roof was of ivory, curiously wrought everywhere with gold and silver and orichalcum; and all the other parts, the walls and pillars and floor, they coated with orichalcum. In the temple they placed statues of gold: there was the god himself standing in a chariot-the charioteer of six winged horses-and of such a size that he touched the roof of the building with his head; around him there were a hundred Nereids riding on dolphins, for such was thought to be the number of them by the men of those days. There were also in the interior of the temple other images which had been dedicated by private persons. And around the temple on the outside were placed statues of gold of all the descendants of the ten kings and of their wives, and there were many other great offerings of kings and of private persons, coming both from the city itself and from the foreign cities over which they held sway. There was an altar too, which in size and workmanship corresponded to this magnificence, and the palaces, in like manner, answered to the greatness of the kingdom and the glory of the temple.

In the next place, they had fountains, one of cold and another of hot water, in gracious plenty flowing; and they were wonderfully adapted for use by reason of the pleasantness and excellence of their waters. They constructed buildings about them and planted suitable trees, also they made cisterns, some open to the heavens, others roofed over, to be used in winter as warm baths; there were the kings' baths, and the baths of private persons, which were kept apart; and there were separate baths for women, and for horses and cattle, and to each of them they gave as much adornment as was suitable. Of the water which ran off they carried some to the grove of Poseidon, where were growing all manner of trees of wonderful height and beauty, owing to the excellence of the soil, while the remainder was conveyed by aqueducts along the bridges to the outer circles; and there were many temples built and dedicated to many gods; also gardens and places of exercise, some for men, and others for horses in both of the two islands formed by the zones; and in the centre of the larger of the two there was set apart a race-course of a stadium in width, and in length allowed to extend all round the island, for horses to race in. Also there were guardhouses at intervals for the guards, the more trusted of whom were appointed-to keep watch in the lesser zone, which was nearer the Acropolis while the most trusted of all had houses given them within the citadel, near the persons of the kings. The docks were full of triremes and naval stores, and all things were quite ready for use. Enough of the plan of the royal palace.

Leaving the palace and passing out across the three you came to a wall which began at the sea and went all round: this was everywhere distant fifty stadia from the largest zone or harbour, and enclosed the whole, the ends meeting at the mouth of the channel which led to the sea. The entire area was densely crowded with habitations; and the canal and the largest of the harbours were full of vessels and merchants coming from all parts, who, from their numbers, kept up a multitudinous sound of human voices, and din and clatter of all sorts night and day.

• 1800-1300: Replacement of the southern "Portuguese" cities by a barbarian something with some Hellenic flavor, that keeps pushing north towards VNSP/Atlantis
  
• 1600: Conquest of Crete by the Mycenean Greeks but certain continuity
  
• 1500:
  
• Hellenization of El Argar
• Colonization of Las Motillas to open a Tin Route (and maybe of silver and gold too) to NW Iberia
• Megalithism in Sardinia ("Atlantization" of Sardinia?)
  
• Uncertain date: Megalithism in North Africa

 Neat Maju

 Sank could have very well  meant abandoned.  I just wonder if there are any other qoutes in history, that the ancients in refering to cities that were over thrown ,or destroyed in the terms of sank or sinking).

 however in timaeus the priest says,

But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.

Neat theory maju and very well thought out, but I believe it's basic premise (ie the Atlantis connection) just ain't there. I think we are trying way too literally to find some Atlantis or (in your case) we are trying to adjust the myth to fit a specific area/culture we have in mind.

Both approaches are rather fallacius and can lead only to error.

While there are many theories about Atlantis, nearly all serious research shows that Atlantis never existed as Plato described it, although elements of his story may have been drawn from real events.

I agree maju much of the story was exaggerated,after all Solon was going to use this story in his poems. however he does say the story was true. It is in finding the facts .

To me the only real clue in Critias`s memory is atlantis was located near the country that they knew in their time, Gadir, Gades, now Gadiz

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadir - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadir

Maju, here is some evidence of a culture before the Greeks in Sicily's Valley of the Temples.

  Maju qoute-One thing seems clear though: that before the Etruscans, Italy was rather secondary and that Iberia was more "developed" and civilized then. So their role would be always secondary in our Atlantean story.

Timaeus

Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia.

 maju qoute -If he is who I think he is, I suspect he's just after people's money.

I have not seem one explorer that is`nt after people money , they need donations for their expedictions.

 However he is good at the ancient lanuages.

Maju, I like your theory , however there are a lot of serious investigators without a PHD or titles behind their names.

But back to the story, Critias says the priest stated the atlantains king names were recorded before theirs kings( theseus, cecrops erechteus, erichtronius,erysichthron ) however the names given were not the real names. Which makes me believe that they were dynasties, such as Aganthonios king of Tartesso name was more of a title ( many kings)? Is there any thing in the VNSP culture that gave any names or list of kings?

Critias

Now different gods had their allotments in different places which they set in order. Hephaestus and Athene, who were brother and sister, and sprang from the same father, having a common nature, and being united also in the love of philosophy and art, both obtained as their common portion this land, which was naturally adapted for wisdom and virtue; and there they implanted brave children of the soil, and put into their minds the order of government; their names are preserved, but their actions have disappeared by reason of the destruction of those who received the tradition, and the lapse of ages. For when there were any survivors, as I have already said, they were men who dwelt in the mountains; and they were ignorant of the art of writing, and had heard only the names of the chiefs of the land, but very little about their actions. The names they were willing enough to give to their children; but the virtues and the laws of their predecessors, they knew only by obscure traditions; and as they themselves and their children lacked for many generations the necessaries of life, they directed their attention to the supply of their wants, and of them they conversed, to the neglect of events that had happened in times long past; for mythology and the enquiry into antiquity are first introduced into cities when they begin to have leisure, and when they see that the necessaries of life have already been provided, but not before. And this is reason why the names of the ancients have been preserved to us and not their actions. This I infer because Solon said that the priests in their narrative of that war mentioned most of the names which are recorded prior to the time of Theseus, such as Cecrops, and Erechtheus, and Erichthonius, and Erysichthon, and the names of the women in like manner.

Well Voyager, I went over and over that in my mind many times ,however Solon said the story was true. Solon was a lawmaker and I don`t think he would have given false statements. Unless Critias made it all up and would`nt  that be given false testimony.

I believe the story was true based on a few facts and its those few facts that I think most are looking for.Like I said ,I think it was  based on  Herodotus`s Tartesso,and the Etrusan,Greek war.

Sure. I didn't say "qualified", just "serious".

Well Voyager, I went over and over that in my mind many times ,however Solon said the story was true. Solon was a lawmaker and I don`t think he would have given false statements. Unless Critias made it all up and would`nt  that be given false testimony.

I believe the story was true based on a few facts and its those few facts that I think most are looking for.Like I said ,I think it was  based on  Herodotus`s Tartesso,and the Etrusan,Greek war.

 Whats puzzling in the story Critias describes the anicent city of Athens to be very simple temples ( there was no adorning of them with gold and silver, for they made no use of these for any purpose) however as to the temple of Atlantis was described as adorned with sliver, gold and ivory and orichalcum, with a staute of Poseiden that reach to the roof.

 Here was Poseidon's own temple which was a stadium in length, and half a stadium in width, and of a proportionate height, having a strange barbaric appearance. All the outside of the temple, with the exception of the pinnacles, they covered with silver, and the pinnacles with gold. In the interior of the temple the roof was of ivory, curiously wrought everywhere with gold and silver and orichalcum; and all the other parts, the walls and pillars and floor, they coated with orichalcum. In the temple they placed statues of gold: there was the god himself standing in a chariot-the charioteer of six winged horses-and of such a size that he touched the roof of the building with his head; around him there were a hundred Nereids riding on dolphins, for such was thought to be the number of them by the men of those days. There were also in the interior of the temple other images which had been dedicated by private persons. And around the temple on the outside were placed statues of gold of all the descendants of the ten kings and of their wives, and there were many other great offerings of kings and of private persons, coming both from the city itself and from the foreign cities over which they held sway. There was an altar too, which in size and workmanship corresponded to this magnificence, and the palaces, in like manner, answered to the greatness of the kingdom and the glory of the temple.

Hello,

Docyabut asked me to take part in this discussion.  Since 3 years we met in the "Atlantis Rising" forum and both thought Atlantis or at least the central parts of Atlantis might have been in Iberia. But I do not believe like docyabut that Atlantis could have been Tartessos. It must have existed earlier, in my opinion, according to Plato´s texts; eventually Tartessus could have been a late successor of Atlantis.

Maju, I find your theory very interesting and hope we can discuss it more in detail. The southern part of the area west of Lisbon, which you call VSPN,  I have visited 3 years ago. I agree with your opinion that Atlantis has something to do with the Megalithism, and that the tin trade was an important economic and political factor in the early Bronze Age.

But I cannot see how VSPN fits almost 100% with Plato´s narration about Atlantis. Where is the flat and even plain with a size of 2000 x 3000 stades? Where is the described sophisticated canal system?

• A peninsula (looking an island for Mediterranean sailors)
  
• Beyond the strait of Gibraltar but not too far away
• Ten royal dynasties (ten artificial cave mausoleums)
• Capital city in the central moutain
• Cultural and econmic "domain" over vast stretches of land (actually it seems more like a loose area of influence, but very vast anyhow)
• Presence of Greeks in the area (El Argar B)
• Huge mineral riches (not in VNSP area but in the region of influence)
• Astronomical knowldege
• Complex structure of the city's fortifications (I don't have a map at hand but it would look like there are no gates or almost)
  

Maju,

Thank you for your reply.

When you have the opinion that the archaeological findings in the area of the VNSP culture resemble Plato´s narrations about Atlantis, but no traces of the three circular canals around the capital could be found, this must not have been due to exaggerations by Plato.

Plato wrote that second to the central kingdom ruled by Poseidon´s first son Atlas, there were 9 other kingdoms under the 9 brothers of Atlas. One of these brothers had the Greek name Elasippos.  Elasippa was the Greek name for the city of Lisbon, in Roman times changed to Olisippo, from which we got our modern name Lisboa. Why not combining the VNSP with Elasippos´ kingdom?

The ten artificial cave mausoleums you have mentioned could have been tombs of local grandes, not necessarily of the ten kings of Atlantis. An Atlantis comprising only the VNSP area could not have been great enough  to have an army of 1,2 millions of warriors and to rule over Europe as far as Tyrrhenia and over Libya (North Africa) up to the border of Egypt (other exaggerations of Plato?) 

Are there links available about the archaeological excavations in the VNSP area?

Hi Ulf so glad you joined.  As you know my I believe Tartesso to be the city that went under the waves in Plato`s story. And I do realize where  Gods are injected into a story,a story can be a little over blown.

However I can relate to Maju`s theory of the ten tombs as the atlantian kings of 1300 bc, for in the story the kings and their desendants for many generations ruled over the divers islands.Tartesso and other cities in Iberia could have been these desendants the story refers to.

Also Ulf ,I invited those from the atlantis forum that believe Atlantis could have been in Iberia or close to it. Jonus and Gerogous. Jonus said he come when he has the time ,Gerogous I dont know if my email went through. I like Maju`s theory and thought others might be interested.

ROME - Archaeologists digging beneath the Roman Forum have discovered a 3,000-year-old tomb that pre-dates the birth of ancient Rome by several hundred years.

State TV Thursday night showed an excavation team removing vases from the tomb, which resembled a deep well.

Archaeologists were excavating under the level of the ancient forum, a popular tourist site, when they dug up the tomb, which they suspect is part of an entire necropolis, the Italian news agency ANSA reported.

"I am convinced that the excavations will bring more tombs to light," ANSA quoted Rome's archaeology commissioner, Eugenio La Rocca, as saying.

Also found inside the tomb was a funerary urn, ANSA said.

State TV quoted experts as saying the tomb appeared to date to about 1,000 B.C., meaning the people who constructed the necropolis pre-dated the ancient Romans by hundreds of years.

Legend has it that Rome was founded in 753 B.C. by Romulus and Remus, the twin sons of the god of war, Mars.

Last year, archaeologists who have been digging for some two decades in the forum said they believed they found evidence of a royal palace roughly dating to the period of the legendary founding.

Atlantains?

Location        Ausdehnung der kupferzeitlichen Befestigung   The fortification complex of the 3rd and 2nd millennium B. C. is situated in the Cencelho Torres Vedras (province of Estremadura, district of Lisbon) some 14 km as the crow flies from the present-day Atlantic coast on a hill projection steeply dropping away towards the west. Geo-archaeological investigations (in 1986) established that, until the 2nd half of the 2nd millennium B. C., Zambujal was at most 1 km away from a former marine branch. (...) Results        Mauerlinie 4   In the interior of the fortification complex, copper manufacture was carried out during all periods of its existence. Alterations of the complex indicate that the concept of the defensive strategy was altered several times. From this, certain structures of command within Copper Age society were inferred. Hints as to residential zones outside the fortification, e. g. on the slope {Zambujal-4.gif: Zambujal, trial trench C} below the steep escarpment of the hill projection on which the fortification is situated, explain, where the settlement of the population required for the construction and defence of the complex must be searched for. The fortification itself seems to have been many times the size that was assumed until now {Zambujal-9.gif: extension of the Copper Age fortification of Zambujal; Zambujal-8.gif: Zambujal, wall line 4}. Probably, the bay mentioned above was of fundamental importance for the existence of the settlement, because on the one hand different materials used in Zambujal had to be brought in from distant sites (e. g. amphibolite, ivory, exotic items such as a cowrie snail, but probably also copper) and on the other hand, the produced copper articles had to be bartered. Additionally, the end of the occupation around the transition from Bronze Age to Iron Age seems to have been connected to the disappearance of the bay.

And here it comes my idea of the earthquake+tsunami, erasing the canal/bay and, of course, breaking havoc among the inhabitants.

I don't know if the circular canals were true or an invention but I suspect that, as excavations continue, we will find a lot more surprising coicidences. I don't discard that the final shape of the "growing" settlement will eventually happen to fit too much the Platonic description of Atlantis. But I must be honest to myself and accept the possibility that some discrepances may exist too.

I didn't expect a marine branch (possible canal) at all and it gladly surprised me when I read about it.

I'm pretty confident that I'm on the right track, though I can't say how close reality will fit the narration.

...

Regarding the miltary ammount, historians always tend to disregard ancient figures as exaggerated, even when they come from relatively good sources.

As you say VNSP area itself is small but we can't know for sure how powerful was their influence in the other Megalithic regions, from Britain to North Africa around 1500. I suspect that the Megalithic phenomenon represents a somehow organized religion and that VNSP Atlanteans may well have controlled that (proto-druidic?) faith. If the Platonian account is reasonably accurate, we may infer that the Great King of the line of Atlas could be also some sort of high priest (Pope or Caliph) for Megalithic nations, exerting a considerable influence over them. The war against the Greeks and El Argar could well have been a religious war, sort fo crusade or jihad, gathering much more than just that forces of VNSP itself. This is very speculative in any case, as we can hardly find hardcore proof of that. Yet the context might well be as I described it, at least I wouldn't think that any evidence steps on my line of thought so far.

For your better ubication, I repost here a map that I created and posted two pages back (I sugest that you read all the topic, anyhow), pondering the possible cultural areas of the Atlantean-Megalithic civilization and the rest of the Mediterranean region as for 1500 BCE:

Lighter colors represent (more or less realistic) influence areas (blue for Atlantis-VNSP, red-orange for Mycenean Greece, green for Hittite Empire). I am a little uncertain about Italy and North Africa.

Hi docyabut,   I am also glad to meet you here. I saw your posts about Tartessos and Argantonius in Saltzman´s thread and that he was not glad about your mentionig Tartessos because it was too late for his theory,  but I had no time to write something in this discussion.

In the museums in Cadiz and Sevilla I saw many items from the time of Argantonius, and I bought a thick catalogue of an exhibition taking place in Sevilla, Madrid and Alicante in the year 2000 : "Argantonio, Rey de Tartessos. La Tarteside en Epoca de Argantonio." The enclosed map shows the kingdom of Argantonius greater than marked in Maju´s maps. It comprised the whole land south of the "Sierra Morena" mountains from the border of today Portugal up to the sources of the Guadalquivier river, that is an elongation of 300 km (190 miles). In the south it included Gibraltar, but not the high mountains of the "Sierra Nevada" .

I did not read all, because my Spanish is not good, but I think I can take some informations for further discussions from this book, which is more serious and authentical than many internet sites.

Maju,  thanks for the link which showed me that the excavations in Zambujal were made by a German archaeological team. So it will be easier for me to get further informations from German websites.

In the above mentioned Spanish book "Argontonio, Rey de Tartessos" is written, that the kingdom of Tartessos was situated in the southwestern part of Iberia between 1400 and 550 BC. So, when you mentioned in your map the area of Egypt during the 18th dynasty (1539 - 1292 BC), you should also introduce Tartessos between Gibraltar and the River Guadiana and along the whole Guadalquivier River, because Tartessos was a very important trading place in this time due to its rich silver and copper mines in the Sierra Morena mountains.

I will copy here what I wrote yesterday in the Atlantis Rising forum in Smiley´s thread, as a very short (and not final) statement about my opinion about location of Atlantis and the time of its destruction:

Where was Atlantis?

When you recall Platon´s texts: he wrote that "inside the pillars" the kings of Atlantis ruled over Europe up to Tyrrhenia (Italy), and over Libya (North Africa) up to the Egyptian border. This is half the size of the Roman empire, or about the size of the West Roman Empire after the division in 395 after Christ. It is very probable that also the area of Atlantis outside the Pillars had a comparable size. So it is not difficult to imagine that the political and/or commercial influence zone of Atlantis included great parts of western and northern Europe along the coasts of the Atlantic Ocean, including the British Isles, Morocco and Mauretania, the Canaries, Azores etc., but also the West Indian Islands and parts of the coast of America.
Boats which are able to sail from the Pillars to the border of Egypt are as well capable to sail from the Pillars to America with the help of the sea currents south of the Canaries, and back with the Gulf Stream. As Thor Heyerdahl showed with his reed boat Ra, or the adventurer Ruediger Nehberg who in the year 2000 crossed the Atlantic on a 17 m long tree within 43 days, it is very easy to come to the other side of the Atlantic Ocean by ship, and why shouldn´t the Atlanteans have done it with their´s?

The center of such a big trading empire must naturally have been on a place with the best accessibility from all the different parts belonging to it: this is from the geographical point of view the region where also Jonas is seeking the Royal city of Atlantis: Iberia or Morocco.

Only an empire of a very great size could have the idea to conquer also the rest of the Mediterranean countries. Plato described, that the army of the kingdom of Atlas comprised 1,2 millions of warriors (As many as the great Persian empire under Dareius could mobilize), but there were still other 9 kingdoms with their armies. It is not imaginable that a united army of about 10 millions of warriors, comparable with the army of the Soviet Union in World War II, could have been recruited from one of the proposed sites for Atlantis alone, be it Tunesia, Morocco, Spain, Ireland, Sicily, the Azores, the Canaries and so on.

Time of the war Atlantis - Old Athens:

As I have previously posted in this thread: 9000 years before Solon is absolutely illogical, when you compare the three citations of the "9000 years" in Plato´s texts. Old Athens, founded 9000 years before Solon, could not have defeated at the same time a host as mighty as Atlantis.

The time of the Sea Peoples invasions to Egypt, about 1200 BC, is only 600 years before Solon; he must have had knowledge of this period, when he remembered the flood of Deucalion and Phoroneus.

The Atlanteans were skilled in metal working, so they must have lived in the time when men knew how to mine and work metals: after about 4500 BC, preferably after 3000 BC. The time of the war was at the end of their existence, probably between 2300 and 1600 BC.

Maju,  certainly you have better information about the archaeology in Iberia than I have. Is Portugal your home country?   I cannot show you pre-Tartessian findings from between 1400 and 1200 BC.  But it seems to me, that archaeology in Spain was mainly interested in the Roman, Tartessian/Phoenician and Iberian past. What was before this time, is mostly not yet excavated, with the known exceptions of Los Millares and El Argar. The Dolmens from the Megalithic time in Antequera were not to be excavated in this sense, they were not hidden underground.

I didn´t find websites in the Internat about Zambujal other than you have shown already. only mentioning of articles in books. Most is published in the "Madrider Mitteilungen" of the German Archaeological institute in Madrid. These are thick books, by chance I have the number of 2002 with 385 pages and 53 tables. It contains two articles about Portugal:           D.Brandherm: "Culture of the older Bronze Age in north west Portugal"     Vilaca, Beck and Stout: "Prehistoric Amber Artifacts in Portugal"

I think it will be possible to have a look into the other numbers of this Journal in the nearby university library in Mainz .

But some months ago I bought an archaeological book from 1993 about Portugal which I did not read up to now, due to lack of time. One chapter is written from Michael Kunst, the author of the website of your link. I must first read it and can afterwards contribute more to our discussion.

Ulf qoute-When you recall Platon´s texts: he wrote that "inside the pillars" the kings of Atlantis ruled over Europe up to Tyrrhenia (Italy), and over Libya (North Africa) up to the Egyptian border-

 I`m not a expert in the texts, however in Jowett`s translation it says parts.

 Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia.

Maju, maybe you can see why I place this story in 600 bc when the Egyptains recorded it . There was no war the greeks were invloved in the Mediterranean during  the dark ages as we know it before the battle of Alalia.  It was the first great naval battle in history.

Alalia was a tremendous victory and it made a world-wide impression. The ancients understood very well the great significance of this naval battle to the Etruscans and Carthaginians, and rightly considered it an event of international importance. Apart from the victory of Pharaoh Rameses Ill in about 1200 B.C. over the Sea Peoples in a battle off the mouth of the Nile, it was the first great naval battle in history.

The story says the atlantians were peaceful people. before they lost their good nature.Tartesso was a peaceful nation before this war happen over their trade of metals.

The Etruscans were described as ceaselessly threatening, if not actually controlling the Western Mediterranean, especially the Tyrrhenian sea. According to various sources, the Etruscans colonised Corsica, the Balearic islands and the coasts of Spain (Stephanus of Byzantium), and there are records (Diodorus Siculus) of the struggle with the Phoenicians for an island in the Atlantic .

http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/history3.html - http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/history3.html