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Topic ClosedAn independent Montenegro?
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Poll Question: An independent Montenegro?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
27 [60.00%]
0 [0.00%]
2 [4.44%]
16 [35.56%]
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sdavidr View Drop Down
Knight
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Posts: 80 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: An independent Montenegro?
    Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 11:36
I must confess that I don't know too much about ethnicity problems (in a large scale like in the Balkans).So, please, don't  consider my reflection as an important one.

I really support a territorial autonomy as democratic independence , and not in favour of ethnocracy or ethnic independence.I have read all the posts, and I don't know if the people of Montenegro is searching a "real" democracy or a "temporary" ethnocracy, or a established ethnocracy.

A ethnocracy, like in Bosnia, it could be the first step ( solving the war problem) , but it must be not the final step. A territory belongs to the people who live there ( and the people who will live there)  and not to a "natural/s" ethnic/s group (serbs, croats or bosniaks; what about jews or other people ?  ) . I'm a catalan nationalist but this is nothing related with ethnic problems. In Catalonia there is a population of 7 millions , so , from my point of view, there are 7 millions of Catalans. It doen's matter if they are muslims, catholics, they were born in Andalusia, Africa or  Madrid , you talk catalan, spanish or chinese. Since the first day you live there , you are Catalan.

I want to define the catalan nationalism with a popular song in the catalan countries :

"I come from a silence
that's old and very long,
of people with no mystics
or captains,
who live and die
in anonymity,
who have never believed
in solemn phrases.


I come from a struggle
that is deaf and constant,
I come from a silence
that will be broken by people
who now want to be free
and love life,
who demand the things
they have been denied.
"

Raimon
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cg rommel View Drop Down
Shogun
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Posts: 244 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 11:44
Originally posted by Mila

I was being sarcastic, joking, darling.

I believe in a separate Montenegrin nationality.
Nationality is a word I'd use for all of the different
groups - Croats, Serbs, Bosniaks, etc.

Ethnicity doesn't really make sense. Unless we're
talking about central Serbia or northern Herzegovina
where the people are practically Black we're all
the same race.

Nationality just makes more sense to me.

So what do you say you guys leave Serbia and join
us, I'm sure Croatia and Kosovo would follow. Then
the former Yugoslavia would have fewer countries to
name.

- Slovenija
- Hrvatska i Bosna i Hercegovina i Crna Gora i
Kosova
- Srbija
- Makedonija

Par-tay.

lol, bratstvo i jedinstvo once more....... idk....... maybe...... i think the the pro serbian parties came to power here,it would be the apocalypse, those who consider them montenegrins would be treated worse than jews in nazi germany (this might sound a little too much, but i think its true...).....
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Mila View Drop Down
Tsar
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Posts: 4030 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 11:57
I really don't believe the Serbian nationalists would
harm Orthodox Christians. Granted they harmed
quite a few in Croatia and Bosnia - not only through
bombing cities with Orthodox minorities, like Vukovar
and Sarajevo, but also directly. I know in particular
one Bosnian Serb man whose mother and sister
were executed in 1992 because his father gave their
family car to non-Serb neighbors, so they could
escape.

But in terms of targetting Orthodox Christians as
their 'problem', it wouldn't pass. It was okay as long
as they were Slovenes, or Croats, or Bosniaks, or
Gypsies, or whatever else - but I truly feel
Montenegrins are safe from that. Even if this was
playing out in 1992, before the world made it clear -
enough, already! - I don't think you'd have too much
to fear.

But the Serbian nationalist parties won't come to
power in Montenegro, CG. They may increase their
power, but unless the elections are rigged they'll
never form a majority.

I think the main thing you should be wary of going
forward is your own nationalists. If they create a
fracture between Montenegrins, Serbs, Bosniaks,
and Albanians in Montenegro - that won't be good.
It's different with Jews, Gypsies, and so on because
they're spread out more evenly - but Montenegrins,
Serbs, Bosniaks, and Albanians have almost their
own self-imposed ghettos where they form
overwhelming majorities. This increases their
chances of reacting along the wishes of their own
group, as opposed to Montenegro as a whole.

As an aside, if Montenegro separates, will it still be
targetted in the lawsuits for compensation filed by
Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia and Herzegovina? I
know the charges have been laid against "Serbia
and Montenegro", but would it then default just to
Serbia?

The trial for Bosnia and Herzegovina is set to begin
this February, seeking compensation for genocide,
destroyed monuments dedicated to history, culture,
or religion, destruction of infrastructure not
necessary to achieve military objectives, etc, the list
goes on. That's the same time you're allowed to hold
the referendum.

It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

I wonder as well if they'll modify Highway 5C in the
case of Montenegrin independence? A highway
passing through Gorazde, into the Sandzak, and
down the belly of Montenegro to Bar would be almost
as benefitial as one through to Mostar and on to
Ploce.

Will Podgorica be the capital of an independent
Montenegro, or will they switch it back to Cetinje?

I think they should pick Stari Bar - hahaha. Let the
Bosniaks rule.

But seriously, Podgorica is a miserable little place.
It's nothing compared to Cetinje and it's not as
though "Titograd" is any reflection of Montenegro or
its people. Half the population there is from southern
Serbia and China.
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Chieftain
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Posts: 1211 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 12:28

Yes, it should be. Yes, it will be.

Wave the flag! Go for it! Freeeeedom!!!!

Next: Scotland, North Ireland, Palestine, Kurdistan, Wales, Texas, California, Tibet, Siberia, Moldova (not Republic of Moldova which is actually Basarabia), Oltenia, Dobrogea, Crete, Rhodos, Andaluzia, Bretagne, Alaska, Hawaii, Hokkaido, Puerto Rico, Manhattan, etc.....

Yes, it should be. No, it won't be.

Wave the flag! Go for it! Freeeeedom!

Ok, quiet down you heatbrainers! We, politicians, know better! You keep waving that flag while we keep on discussing with our counterparts. We reach an agreement, we spit you some tidbits of it, we encourage you to keep on doing what you do but do not ever think that we will really ever do what you expect us to do. Your ideals are ours, but our goals are not yours!

No, it shouldn't be. Yes, it would be.

Keep quiet boys! We're on it!

Don't make a fuss! Stay put and do what you have to do. Then, we will take the control and though some of you may feel that it was better before, we can always say that we didn't wanted this to happen, but as it did ...

No, it shouldn't be. No, it won't be

Keep quiet! Everyone!

Now, that's more like it! Let's get back to our business.

Not to many options, Mila. What ever will happen, in the end it will be the politicians who win. Not the people, although some may think they won. But then, what about the others .... They will stuck to some leader, who will tell them that what was done could be undone. And there will be no end.

Sorry, no vote on this poll.
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Colonel
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Posts: 618 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 12:44

Now what was that about Dobrogea, Cezar? I don't know about North Dobrogea, but South Dobrogea is definately staying with Bulgaria. No doubt about it.
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Chieftain
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Posts: 1211 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 12:50
Originally posted by the Bulgarian

Now what was that about Dobrogea, Cezar? I don't know about North Dobrogea, but South Dobrogea is definately staying with Bulgaria. No doubt about it.

Why don't they both be independent? Maybe then they will unite and form a Great Dobrogea?
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Colonel
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Posts: 636 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 13:18
screw the compensation just gives us the sandzak back 
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Tsar
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Posts: 4030 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 13:31
We can't take the Sandzak, you heard him. Bosnia and Herzegovina will be Greater Albania in a few generations.

Give us...hmmm...

I don't know? What do we want?
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Colonel
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Posts: 618 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 14:12

Originally posted by Mila

We can't take the Sandzak, you heard him. Bosnia and Herzegovina will be Greater Albania in a few generations.

Give us...hmmm...

I don't know? What do we want?

How does Belgrade sound?
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Mila View Drop Down
Tsar
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Posts: 4030 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 14:38
Pfft... not anymore. They destroyed all the best parts
when the Ottoman Empire fell.

We'll take... Nis. Nis is nice. Lots of Ottoman citadels
and bridges and things left. Uzice would be nice too.
Effing weird city. Has a population of like 250 but a
skyline better than any other city in the Balkans.
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Shogun
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Posts: 244 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 14:55
Originally posted by Mila

Pfft... not anymore. They destroyed all the best parts
when the Ottoman Empire fell.

We'll take... Nis. Nis is nice. Lots of Ottoman citadels
and bridges and things left. Uzice would be nice too.
Effing weird city. Has a population of like 250 but a
skyline better than any other city in the Balkans.


so you'll take the cele kula too? it was made from the skulls of fallen serbian soldiers in the uprising against the turks in 1804......
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Tsar
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Posts: 4030 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 15:32
Awww... I don't feel comfortable joking about something like that.

You killed our fun.
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Tsar
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Posts: 4030 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 15:40



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Shogun
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Posts: 244 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 15:57
lol.... ok..... you just seem to praise the turks a bit too much..... ignore that post...
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Posts: 4030 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 16:14
Well, I'm Muslim, CG - so it's different. For me, they're the people who brought me my faith. I don't view the Ottoman Empire as being that bad anyway, but I believe in Islam and I'd be willing to suffer much more than we did to get it.

It must be similar to you, with the Byzantine Empire and Orthodox Christianity? You must feel some sort of gratitude and connection simply on faith, yes?
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Chieftain
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Posts: 1211 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 16:25

Originally posted by Mila

Well, I'm Muslim, CG - so it's different. For me, they're the people who brought me my faith. I don't view the Ottoman Empire as being that bad anyway, but I believe in Islam and I'd be willing to suffer much more than we did to get it.

It must be similar to you, with the Byzantine Empire and Orthodox Christianity? You must feel some sort of gratitude and connection simply on faith, yes?

What's the purpose of this thread, anyway?

I almost got myself backfired by a bulgarian while I was trying to say something that is not  quite OK with him. Is that OK to you, Mila?
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Tsar
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Posts: 4030 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 16:28
It was supposed to ask whether or not people support the independence of Montenegro. And luckily it's a poll so we can still do that. We have 11 for and 5 against.
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Posts: 636 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 21:04
Dammit so no Sandzak? Well screw it then lets get Kosovo at least.
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Posts: 636 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 21:09
Phew Ottomans bad? Turks are our cultural brothers all but in lingo.
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Posts: 416 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2005 at 05:14

I really don't like all this provocation.It's up to Montenegrins and Serbs to decide.There won't be any civil war.Significant part of Serbs wants an indep. Serbia.Large part of Serbs have montenegrin background and last names-still WE consider us to be Serbs.

70% of Montenegrins is voting for independence?I guess this is why they r telling us that only 1/5 must vote for it in order for it to come true-1/5 is a vaaast majority(1150000 out of 600000).

Petar Petrovic Njegosh(the greatest of Montenegrins)considred himself to be  a Serb-u can read it in "Gorski vijenac."

The true reason for indep. is Milo Djukanovic the pm of Montenegro-he is WANTED BY ITALIAN GOVERMENT BECAUSE OF HIS INVOLVMENT IN CIGARETTE SMUGGLING.ANd some time ago people around him were involved in HUMAN TRAFFICING.Type in Djukanovic at google-see what u find.He is one of the richest men in MOntenegro-how did he do it?He wants independency for his own selfish little reasons.

SERBS AND MONTENEGRINS R TWO GENETICALLY,HISTORICALLY AND TRADIOTINALLY CONNECTED PEOPLES.WE FOUGHT AND BLED TOGETHER-SIDE BY SIDE.IF INDEPENDENCE IS WHAT PEOPLE(NOT MILO) WANTS-THEN THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD BE.WE WON"T SAY A THING.THEY WERE NEVER 'UNDER OUR PAW'-THEY JOINED US BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO.INTERESTING FOR ALL U POLITICALLY CORRECT BOSNIAKS-MILOSEVIC IS A MONTENEGRIN LAST NAME.

AND YOU VULGARIAN BOY(the Bulgarian) DON'T MAKE ME SHOW THOSE PHOTOS OF BULGARIAN WAR CRIMES AGAINST THE SERBS IN WWI-DOCUMENTED BY ARCHIBALD RODOLPH REISS-HEROIC DEEDS INDEED.WE GOT LUCKY...READ THE HISTORY A BIT-WE BEAT U EVEN BEFORE 1913. AND WWI.I DARE U TO MAKE ANOTHER COMMENT OR DENIE THIS.
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