An independent Montenegro?
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Topic: An independent Montenegro?
Posted By: Mila
Subject: An independent Montenegro?
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 12:44
an independent MONTENEGRO?
Three
years have passed since Europe placed a moratorium on Montenegrin
independence and this February the republic, a part of Serbia and
Montenegro, will be legally allowed to hold a referendum for
independence from Serbia.
Polls show roughly 70 per cent of Montenegrins support independence -
however, there are vast regional differences. Montenegrins who live and
work in Serbia proper are more than 80 per cent opposed to
independence, as are Bosniak residents of Sandzak - a region which
would be split in half between Montenegro and Serbia should
independence be declared. Even these opinions are mixed. When asked if
the whole of the Sandzak would be allowed to join Montenegro, more than
90 per cent of Bosniaks supported independence.
However, nowhere is the desire for independence stronger than in
Podgorica, the Montenegrin capital. Polls conducted within the city
have routinely showed a near 100 per cent support for independence.
Podgorica, Montenegro
The desire for independence is based largely in the abstract feeling
that Montenegro is held back from greater inclusion within Europe and
European organizations due to what they consider the nationalist and
stubborn nature of polices in Belgrade, the Serbian capital.
Montenegrins also insist their tourism industry and coastal trade
infrastructure are keeping Serbia and Montenegro afloat, with most of
the benefits being exploited outside of Montenegro.
For their part, Serbs insist - and with significant economic evidence -
that Serbia is in fact keeping Montenegro afloat. They feel that
without Serbian patrimony, Montenegro would be as poor and backwards as
they perceive Kosovo to be.
Infused within these feelings is a strong sense of nationalism.
Montenegrins often view Serbs as their dirty, Ottoman-tainted cousins.
Serbs often view Montenegrins as rural, illiterate peasants.
These feelings change by region.
In Kotor, and along the Montenegrin coast, the desire for independence
from Serbia and Montenegro is quite strong - however, a vast majority
of residents consider themselves to be ethnically Serb and do not
support the idea of an independent, Montegrin nationality.
Kotor, Montenegro
In Montenegro's portion of the Sandzak, the local Bosniak population is
also divided. A majority of Muslims in this region consider themselves
to be ethnically Bosniak with the remainder divided between the Serb
and 'Montenegrin' ethnicities, clearly favoring Serb.
Because the Sandzak has enjoyed an unofficial yet still evident level
of autonomy under the banner of Serbia and Montenegro, residents do not
want to lose their self-determination rights and be placed under
authority of either Belgrade or Podgorica. For them, maintaining the
Sandzak as a single unit is the most important basis for moving forward.
Bosnia and Herzegovina has helped stoke these feelings, which those
Bosniaks in the region who support independence term a "false dilemma".
Nowhere is the unconditional desire for Montenegrin independence higher
among Bosniaks than in Plav-Gusinje, the regional capital of the
Montenegrin portion of the Sandzak. Residents of this city are the most
supportive of Montenegrin independence in the whole of the Sandzak.
Plav-Gusinje, Montenegro
In contrast, Bosniaks living in Zabljak and Berane are largely opposed
to Montenegrin independence. In Zabljak, more supported the idea of
uniting the Montenegrin Sandzak with Serbia than supported uniting the
Serbian Sandzak with Montenegro.
Zabljak, Montenegro
Berane, Montenegro
If Montenegro declares its independence from Serbia and Montenegro,
there will be vast regions of the country where this declaration is not
supported. There will be isolated regions where it is not accepted.
Police have already confiscated weapons caches in the city of Berane.
They have also uncovered a plot to target polling stations in Budva, on
the Montenegrin coast.
If independence is not put to the vote, a vast majority of Montenegrins
will be dissatisfied and it could lead to destabilising protests across
the republic, with additional protests - either for or against -
spreading into Serbia itself.
There is no danger that Serbia and Montenegro will go to war against
each other for independence, as they are both predominantly Orthodox
Christian countries. However, since their border - on both sides - is
populated largely by Muslim Bosniaks, there may be needlessly brutal
attempts to strengthen border security or possibly even lay claim to
stretches of land on the other side.
Knowing all this, do you support an independent Montenegro?
I do. I believe an independent Montenegro will be capable of providing
its citizens with more economic opportunities and a higher standard of
living. I believe an independent Montenegro will not neglect the
Bosniak-populated north in an attempt to buy off continued loyalty.
Economic progress in the Montenegrin Sandzak will certainly positively
influence the Serbian Sandzak since both regions are, in essence, one
region with an intensely "ours first" mentality when it comes to
business and development.
Althought Serbia will then be a landlocked country, it will maintain
significant ties with Montenegro simply because no self-respecting
Montenegrin businessman would want to switch their business to
neighboring Bosnia and Herzegovina or Albania.
Because Montenegrins are largely Eastern Orthodox, Serbian nationalists
will not be able to paint them as foreign squatters in Serbian public
opinion and it will be generally accepted that the Montenegrins are
those who have rights to the land, the descendants of those who have
lived there for centuries, and their declaration of independence will
be respected.
So what do you think?
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Replies:
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 14:31
I support self-determination in all cases, be it for Montenegro or
Sandzak. I can't vote for them. Would I be Montenegrin, I would
probably vote for independence, would I be Sandzakian I would probably
abstain.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 18:11
Support the idea in principle, so long as regional disparities in
opinion doesn't make things messy, or lead to a sort of two track
nation post-indipendance.
------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 18:20
If the people want it.
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Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 18:31
I voted no. Because we already have more than enough Balkan states, and don't need another one, thank you kindly.
Besides, if Montenegro becomes independent, Serbia becomes land-locked. There are already enough reasons to start wars in the Balkans, we don't need new ones.
How about learning to live together instead?
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Posted By: LEGATVS LEGIONIS
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 18:34
Originally posted by Maju
I support self-determination in all cases, be it for Montenegro or
Sandzak. I can't vote for them. Would I be Montenegrin, I would
probably vote for independence, would I be Sandzakian I would probably
abstain.
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I totally agree;the self-determination of a people ought to be one of the most important rights in my opinion.
By the way i hope that each european state will join the European Union
(that could become something like The United States of Europe) in
a few years' time, where everyone will able to have the same rights and
the same opportunities
------------- Hosti non solum dandam esse viam ad fugiendum, sed etiam muniendam!
(Publius Cornelius Scipio 'Africanus')
Si vis pacem para bellum!
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 19:45
If the Montenegrins agree with it then go for it.
Rather now on a peaceful way than later on a violent way.
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Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 20:28
It seems like its a beautiful place to visit especially the Ulqin
beaches are legendary in Albania for their cleanness. I say if they
want independence they should certainly get it.
------------- The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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Posted By: Thegeneral
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 21:07
I have a friend there and yes, the people want it! Absolutely!
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 21:11
Originally posted by vulkan02
It seems like its a beautiful place to visit especially the Ulqin
beaches are legendary in Albania for their cleanness. I say if they
want independence they should certainly get it.
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I completely forgot about Ulcinj! I've heard nothing about which way Montenegrin Albanians will vote!
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Posted By: Roberts
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 21:24
We will have another Balkan state in Eurovision Song Contest
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Posted By: Quetzalcoatl
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 21:25
serbia has always been a traditional ally to France and the Uk, and it would murder to further dismantle that country. I'm against, Kosovo and montegro back to Serbia.
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 21:52
EDIT: Nevermind.
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Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 22:23
They have businesses especially in tourism so they if you pondering
wether they want to be a part of Albania they don't. I think the Albo
population will support independence.
------------- The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 23:12
Oh God, they'd never be allowed to even think of joining Albania. It
would be like the Sandzak joining Bosnia, or the REpublika Srpska
joining Serbia. Instant war.
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Posted By: Belisarius
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 23:30
Will the fate of the Balkans be the reduction of nations to the point of city-states?
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 23:38
It wouldn't surprise me.
There are already a few likely candidates.
Trieste, Italy.
Piran, Slovenia.
Dubrovnik, Croatia.
Zenica, Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Brcko, Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Tetovo, Macedonia.
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Posted By: Quetzalcoatl
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 23:57
Originally posted by Mila
EDIT: Nevermind. |
Speak your mind dear; I'm not an ogre, it is your right to disagree with me.
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Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 00:15
I think we are getting to the point where the Balkans are being split up too much. At a time where Europe needs to integrate for mutual economic prosperity, is it really necessary to further dismantle nations made up of ethnic groups who have a closely intertwined history and have traditionally got on fairly well. Dividing a country results in a splitting of a market economy and the disappearance of economies of scale. For Serbia and Montenegro, economic regeneration necessitates working together.
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 00:51
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl
Originally posted by Mila
EDIT: Nevermind. |
Speak your mind dear; I'm not an ogre, it is your right to disagree with me. |
It wasn't a disagreement. I said you already celebrated what Serbian
nationalists did to my country, so I'm not surprised you'd not support
Montenegrin independence.
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Posted By: Quetzalcoatl
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 01:23
Originally posted by Mila
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl
Originally posted by Mila
EDIT: Nevermind. |
Speak your mind dear; I'm not an ogre, it is your right to disagree with me.
|
It wasn't a disagreement. I said you already celebrated what Serbian nationalists did to my country, so I'm not surprised you'd not support Montenegrin independence.
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Did I? It was a silly thing to say now I remember--even if you guys were bashing France.The serbs were certainly misguided and committed atrocities against the bosniaks' however, they''ve paid for their crimes and lost territories. I believe it is just wrong to keep punishing them at this stage. Amputating Montenegro and kosovo from Serbia will only create more resentment and instability.
You may think it is very arrogant of me to speak with such conviction to someone who had suffered in such a terrible war but this is my sincere opinion.
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 01:30
They didn't lose territory, they gained territory.
Serbs now control 49 per cent of Bosnia and Herzegovina, including many
areas where Bosniaks and Croats were once an overwhelming majority. In
fact, if you total up the total of the Republika Srpska's current land
area and use the 1991 census to establish population - the land was 21
per cent Serbian-populated, far lower than the Bosnian national
average. In addition to this, at one point they controlled roughly 15
per cent of Slovenia and 75 per cent of Croatia. Neither of these three
countries have ever been a part of Serbia or Montenegro.
Ethnicity in Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1991:
http://img421.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bosniaethnicity4ap.jpg">
Ethnicity in Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1996:
http://img529.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc0019ry.jpg">
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Posted By: the Bulgarian
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 01:56
Mila's right. Macedonia wasn't populated by Serbs as well, yet they controlled it for 80 years. Even now there are areas of Serbia, populated overwhelmingly by non-Serbs. Serbs aren't really that big of nation. Infact, they were a small nation (and still are), but got lucky in the Balcan and World wars and were put in charge of other peoples' national teritories. Creating a Great Serbia was a punishment to its neighbouring nations - mainly Bulgarians, Hungarians and Croats. The current process of Serbia's dyssemination is a logycal and healthy process of justice being restored and things coming to their rightful places.
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Posted By: Quetzalcoatl
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 02:36
Originally posted by Mila
They didn't lose territory, they gained territory.
Serbs now control 49 per cent of Bosnia and Herzegovina, including many areas where Bosniaks and Croats were once an overwhelming majority. In fact, if you total up the total of the Republika Srpska's current land area and use the 1991 census to establish population - the land was 21 per cent Serbian-populated, far lower than the Bosnian national average. In addition to this, at one point they controlled roughly 15 per cent of Slovenia and 75 per cent of Croatia. Neither of these three countries have ever been a part of Serbia or Montenegro.
Ethnicity in Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1991: http://img421.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bosniaethnicity4ap.jpg">
Ethnicity in Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1996: http://img529.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc0019ry.jpg">
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Fair enough, then excuse my ignorance on the issue.
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Posted By: Alkiviades
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 03:28
Interesting, Mila. First you proceed to create an "pro-Bosniak" and "we-like-Mila" attitude, while subtly injecting some light propaganda here and there.
And now, we are moving on to less... subtle directions. Direct Serbia bashing, "free Montenegro" campaigns... (not that anybody asked the Montenegrians... lol) and similar stuff. Interesting, nevertheless. I am wondering about what your role really is...
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Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 05:01
C'mon, Alkiviades. She's just posted on a current affairs topic of her
interest: that is the referendum that is going to be held in
Montenegro. Her position was very neutral and informative, whatever her
personal opinion.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Posted By: cg rommel
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 08:43
I think we deserve to chose whether we shall be independent or not, and
i think we should be independent, noone can deny us that right.......
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Posted By: Alkiviades
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 08:54
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 09:19
Originally posted by Alkiviades
Interesting, Mila. First you proceed to create
an "pro-Bosniak" and "we-like-Mila" attitude, while subtly injecting
some light propaganda here and there.
And now, we are moving on to less... subtle directions. Direct
Serbia bashing, "free Montenegro" campaigns... (not that anybody asked
the Montenegrians... lol) and similar stuff. Interesting, nevertheless.
I am wondering about what your role really is... |
You really think I put that much thought into some conscious plan to
feed everyone propaganda? I've tried to be fair, much more so than I
would be among my friends away from the internet. Furthermore, I
believe in everything I've said - I'm not thinking: Gee, I hope no one
checks for themselves and sees what really happened, I'm thinking: Gee,
I hope everyone is interested enough to check for themselves and see
this really happened.
As for changing since I first arrived, bulls--t. My opinions were the
same then as they are now. If I support Montenegrin independence, and
that makes me some Bosniak nationalist, then you really don't
understand the dynamics of nationalism here. I am very patriotic,
probably to the point that most people would consider nationalist, but
that doesn't mean I hate everyone else. My husband is a Croat, some of
my best friends are Serbs and Jews. Do they hold the same views I do,
yes - but that's only because they experienced the same things. I don't
know anyone who was on the other side, shooting at Sarajevo, and that's
fine with me.
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Posted By: cg rommel
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 16:22
Originally posted by Mila
Originally posted by vulkan02
It seems like its a beautiful place to visit especially the Ulqin
beaches are legendary in Albania for their cleanness. I say if they
want independence they should certainly get it.
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I completely forgot about Ulcinj! I've heard nothing about which way Montenegrin Albanians will vote!
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Herceg Novi is the best
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 16:25
Hahaha - you're right, it is.
Give it back.
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Posted By: cg rommel
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 16:29
Give it back? to who? It is true that Tvrtko I founded it, but after
the turks got it it was never bosnian again...... BOKA JE U CRNU GORU
.....
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 16:35
Hehehe.
So Tvrtko founded Herceg Novi, and you won't give it back to Bosnia and
Herzegovina. But Isa Isakovic founded Novi Pazar and you couldn't get
Bosnia and Herzegovina to take it if you tried.
I think that's fair. Now I hope they merge the whole Sandzak with
Montenegro. And you know Bosniaks there are like rabbits - well,
they're like rabbits everywhere really, we just use condoms in Bosnia
proper... - and Montenegro will pass 50 per cent Bosniak in a
generation. They're already 20 per cent.
This is my plan for world domination.
Reminds me of "Battle for Siroki Brijeg", the two Bosnian Croats
talking about Bosniaks trying to conquer the world, and one of them
says:
"Sure, but what would they with it? Give everyone coffee and go to bed?"
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 16:44
The movie had the best scenes.
The Bosniak woman and a Bosnian Serb woman end up running for cover
from shelling into the same building, and fight each other almost to
the death, give up, make up, and then get killed by a shell impact.
But my favorite is when a group of Bosniak refugees are making their
way out of Trebinje, and they hit a Serb checkpoint and the guy asks if
they're Serbs, and the mother of the family says, "No, we're Bosniaks."
And the soldier gets this expression of surprise and amazement and says, "Funny, you look real enough to me."
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Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 16:53
Interesting, Mila. First you proceed to create an "pro-Bosniak" and "we-like-Mila" attitude, while subtly injecting some light propaganda here and there.
And now, we are moving on to less... subtle directions. Direct Serbia bashing, "free Montenegro" campaigns... (not that anybody asked the Montenegrians... lol) and similar stuff. Interesting, nevertheless. I am wondering about what your role really is... |
I think she is an agent from Macedonia or Turkey who wants to divide and weaken Serbia and Greece.
And you know Bosniaks there are like rabbits - well, they're like rabbits everywhere really, we just use condoms in Bosnia proper... - and Montenegro will pass 50 per cent Bosniak in a generation. |
I think Albanians are even more rabbit like than Bosnians.
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Posted By: cg rommel
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 16:59
Originally posted by Mila
Hehehe.
So Tvrtko founded Herceg Novi, and you won't give it back to Bosnia and
Herzegovina. But Isa Isakovic founded Novi Pazar and you couldn't get
Bosnia and Herzegovina to take it if you tried.
I think that's fair. Now I hope they merge the whole Sandzak with
Montenegro. And you know Bosniaks there are like rabbits - well,
they're like rabbits everywhere really, we just use condoms in Bosnia
proper... - and Montenegro will pass 50 per cent Bosniak in a
generation. They're already 20 per cent.
This is my plan for world domination.
Reminds me of "Battle for Siroki Brijeg", the two Bosnian Croats
talking about Bosniaks trying to conquer the world, and one of them
says:
"Sure, but what would they with it? Give everyone coffee and go to bed?"
|
No, albanians have a plan for world domination, they became the
majority in kosovo, they even had 10-11 kids per family, and they are
becoming the majority in eastern montenegro.... i fear that true
montenegrins will only reamin in the central parts of mn around cetinje
and in the southeast lol....
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 18:15
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi
think she is an agent from Macedonia or Turkey
who wants to divide and weaken Serbia and Greece. |
One down, one to go.
And CG: Come on, Montenegrins? You know they don't exist. It's like Bosniaks, or Croats, or Federation Serbs.
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Posted By: cg rommel
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 10:04
i dont agree, more than 50% of the population declared themselves to be
montenegrin in 2001..... but oh well, you can think like those crazy
serb nationalists......
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 10:35
I was being sarcastic, joking, darling.
I believe in a separate Montenegrin nationality.
Nationality is a word I'd use for all of the different
groups - Croats, Serbs, Bosniaks, etc.
Ethnicity doesn't really make sense. Unless we're
talking about central Serbia or northern Herzegovina
where the people are practically Black we're all
the same race.
Nationality just makes more sense to me.
So what do you say you guys leave Serbia and join
us, I'm sure Croatia and Kosovo would follow. Then
the former Yugoslavia would have fewer countries to
name.
- Slovenija
- Hrvatska i Bosna i Hercegovina i Crna Gora i
Kosova
- Srbija
- Makedonija
Par-tay.
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 10:45
Hmmm...Serbia and Macedonia should unite. It'd be
so cool to say Srbijakedonija on a daily basis.
Then they can call themselves Srbijaks and confuse
all the Bosnjaks.
Reminds me of that joke:
What do you get from a union of Bosnia and
Herzegovina and Montenegro?
Crna Bosna i Gora Hercegovina.
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Posted By: sdavidr
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 11:36
I must confess that I don't know too much about ethnicity problems (in a large scale like in the Balkans).So, please, don't consider my reflection as an important one.
I really support a territorial autonomy as democratic independence , and not in favour of ethnocracy or ethnic independence.I have read all the posts, and I don't know if the people of Montenegro
is searching a "real" democracy or a "temporary" ethnocracy, or a established ethnocracy.
A ethnocracy, like in Bosnia, it could be the first step ( solving the war problem) , but it must be not the final step. A territory belongs to the people who live there ( and the people who will live there) and not to a "natural/s" ethnic/s group (serbs, croats or bosniaks; what about jews or other people ? ) . I'm a catalan nationalist but this is nothing related with ethnic problems. In Catalonia there is a population of 7 millions , so , from my point of view, there are 7 millions of Catalans. It doen's matter if they are muslims, catholics, they were born in Andalusia, Africa or Madrid , you talk catalan, spanish or chinese. Since the first day you live there , you are Catalan.
I want to define the catalan nationalism with a popular song in the catalan countries :
"I come from a silence
that's old and very long,
of people with no mystics
or captains,
who live and die
in anonymity,
who have never believed
in solemn phrases.
I come from a struggle
that is deaf and constant,
I come from a silence
that will be broken by people
who now want to be free
and love life,
who demand the things
they have been denied."
Raimon
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Posted By: cg rommel
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 11:44
Originally posted by Mila
I was being sarcastic, joking, darling.
I believe in a separate Montenegrin nationality.
Nationality is a word I'd use for all of the different
groups - Croats, Serbs, Bosniaks, etc.
Ethnicity doesn't really make sense. Unless we're
talking about central Serbia or northern Herzegovina
where the people are practically Black we're all
the same race.
Nationality just makes more sense to me.
So what do you say you guys leave Serbia and join
us, I'm sure Croatia and Kosovo would follow. Then
the former Yugoslavia would have fewer countries to
name.
- Slovenija
- Hrvatska i Bosna i Hercegovina i Crna Gora i
Kosova
- Srbija
- Makedonija
Par-tay. |
lol, bratstvo i jedinstvo once more....... idk....... maybe...... i
think the the pro serbian parties came to power here,it would be the
apocalypse, those who consider them montenegrins would be treated worse
than jews in nazi germany (this might sound a little too much, but i
think its true...).....
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 11:57
I really don't believe the Serbian nationalists would
harm Orthodox Christians. Granted they harmed
quite a few in Croatia and Bosnia - not only through
bombing cities with Orthodox minorities, like Vukovar
and Sarajevo, but also directly. I know in particular
one Bosnian Serb man whose mother and sister
were executed in 1992 because his father gave their
family car to non-Serb neighbors, so they could
escape.
But in terms of targetting Orthodox Christians as
their 'problem', it wouldn't pass. It was okay as long
as they were Slovenes, or Croats, or Bosniaks, or
Gypsies, or whatever else - but I truly feel
Montenegrins are safe from that. Even if this was
playing out in 1992, before the world made it clear -
enough, already! - I don't think you'd have too much
to fear.
But the Serbian nationalist parties won't come to
power in Montenegro, CG. They may increase their
power, but unless the elections are rigged they'll
never form a majority.
I think the main thing you should be wary of going
forward is your own nationalists. If they create a
fracture between Montenegrins, Serbs, Bosniaks,
and Albanians in Montenegro - that won't be good.
It's different with Jews, Gypsies, and so on because
they're spread out more evenly - but Montenegrins,
Serbs, Bosniaks, and Albanians have almost their
own self-imposed ghettos where they form
overwhelming majorities. This increases their
chances of reacting along the wishes of their own
group, as opposed to Montenegro as a whole.
As an aside, if Montenegro separates, will it still be
targetted in the lawsuits for compensation filed by
Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia and Herzegovina? I
know the charges have been laid against "Serbia
and Montenegro", but would it then default just to
Serbia?
The trial for Bosnia and Herzegovina is set to begin
this February, seeking compensation for genocide,
destroyed monuments dedicated to history, culture,
or religion, destruction of infrastructure not
necessary to achieve military objectives, etc, the list
goes on. That's the same time you're allowed to hold
the referendum.
It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.
I wonder as well if they'll modify Highway 5C in the
case of Montenegrin independence? A highway
passing through Gorazde, into the Sandzak, and
down the belly of Montenegro to Bar would be almost
as benefitial as one through to Mostar and on to
Ploce.
Will Podgorica be the capital of an independent
Montenegro, or will they switch it back to Cetinje?
I think they should pick Stari Bar - hahaha. Let the
Bosniaks rule.
But seriously, Podgorica is a miserable little place.
It's nothing compared to Cetinje and it's not as
though "Titograd" is any reflection of Montenegro or
its people. Half the population there is from southern
Serbia and China.
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Posted By: Cezar
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 12:28
Yes, it should be. Yes, it will be.
Wave the flag! Go for it! Freeeeedom!!!!
Next: Scotland, North Ireland, Palestine, Kurdistan, Wales, Texas, California, Tibet, Siberia, Moldova (not Republic of Moldova which is actually Basarabia), Oltenia, Dobrogea, Crete, Rhodos, Andaluzia, Bretagne, Alaska, Hawaii, Hokkaido, Puerto Rico, Manhattan, etc.....
Yes, it should be. No, it won't be.
Wave the flag! Go for it! Freeeeedom!
Ok, quiet down you heatbrainers! We, politicians, know better! You keep waving that flag while we keep on discussing with our counterparts. We reach an agreement, we spit you some tidbits of it, we encourage you to keep on doing what you do but do not ever think that we will really ever do what you expect us to do. Your ideals are ours, but our goals are not yours!
No, it shouldn't be. Yes, it would be.
Keep quiet boys! We're on it!
Don't make a fuss! Stay put and do what you have to do. Then, we will take the control and though some of you may feel that it was better before, we can always say that we didn't wanted this to happen, but as it did ...
No, it shouldn't be. No, it won't be
Keep quiet! Everyone!
Now, that's more like it! Let's get back to our business.
Not to many options, Mila. What ever will happen, in the end it will be the politicians who win. Not the people, although some may think they won. But then, what about the others .... They will stuck to some leader, who will tell them that what was done could be undone. And there will be no end.
Sorry, no vote on this poll.
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Posted By: the Bulgarian
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 12:44
Now what was that about Dobrogea, Cezar? I don't know about North Dobrogea, but South Dobrogea is definately staying with Bulgaria. No doubt about it.
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Posted By: Cezar
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 12:50
Originally posted by the Bulgarian
Now what was that about Dobrogea, Cezar? I don't know about North Dobrogea, but South Dobrogea is definately staying with Bulgaria. No doubt about it.
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Why don't they both be independent? Maybe then they will unite and form a Great Dobrogea?
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Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 13:18
screw the compensation just gives us the sandzak back
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 13:31
We can't take the Sandzak, you heard him. Bosnia and Herzegovina will be Greater Albania in a few generations.
Give us...hmmm...
I don't know? What do we want?
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Posted By: the Bulgarian
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 14:12
Originally posted by Mila
We can't take the Sandzak, you heard him. Bosnia and Herzegovina will be Greater Albania in a few generations.
Give us...hmmm...
I don't know? What do we want?
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How does Belgrade sound?
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 14:38
Pfft... not anymore. They destroyed all the best parts
when the Ottoman Empire fell.
We'll take... Nis. Nis is nice. Lots of Ottoman citadels
and bridges and things left. Uzice would be nice too.
Effing weird city. Has a population of like 250 but a
skyline better than any other city in the Balkans.
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Posted By: cg rommel
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 14:55
Originally posted by Mila
Pfft... not anymore. They destroyed all the best parts
when the Ottoman Empire fell.
We'll take... Nis. Nis is nice. Lots of Ottoman citadels
and bridges and things left. Uzice would be nice too.
Effing weird city. Has a population of like 250 but a
skyline better than any other city in the Balkans. |
so you'll take the cele kula too? it was made from the skulls of fallen serbian soldiers in the uprising against the turks in 1804......
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 15:32
Awww... I don't feel comfortable joking about something like that.
You killed our fun.
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 15:40
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Posted By: cg rommel
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 15:57
lol.... ok..... you just seem to praise the turks a bit too much..... ignore that post...
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 16:14
Well, I'm Muslim, CG - so it's different. For me, they're the people
who brought me my faith. I don't view the Ottoman Empire as being that
bad anyway, but I believe in Islam and I'd be willing to suffer much
more than we did to get it.
It must be similar to you, with the Byzantine Empire and Orthodox
Christianity? You must feel some sort of gratitude and connection
simply on faith, yes?
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Posted By: Cezar
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 16:25
Originally posted by Mila
Well, I'm Muslim, CG - so it's different. For me, they're the people who brought me my faith. I don't view the Ottoman Empire as being that bad anyway, but I believe in Islam and I'd be willing to suffer much more than we did to get it.
It must be similar to you, with the Byzantine Empire and Orthodox Christianity? You must feel some sort of gratitude and connection simply on faith, yes?
|
What's the purpose of this thread, anyway?
I almost got myself backfired by a bulgarian while I was trying to say something that is not quite OK with him. Is that OK to you, Mila?
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 16:28
It was supposed to ask whether or not people support the independence
of Montenegro. And luckily it's a poll so we can still do that. We have
11 for and 5 against.
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Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 21:04
Dammit so no Sandzak? Well screw it then lets get Kosovo at least.
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Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 21:09
Phew Ottomans bad? Turks are our cultural brothers all but in lingo.
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Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2005 at 05:14
I really don't like all this provocation.It's up to Montenegrins and Serbs to decide.There won't be any civil war.Significant part of Serbs wants an indep. Serbia.Large part of Serbs have montenegrin background and last names-still WE consider us to be Serbs.
70% of Montenegrins is voting for independence?I guess this is why they r telling us that only 1/5 must vote for it in order for it to come true-1/5 is a vaaast majority(1150000 out of 600000).
Petar Petrovic Njegosh(the greatest of Montenegrins)considred himself to be a Serb-u can read it in "Gorski vijenac."
The true reason for indep. is Milo Djukanovic the pm of Montenegro-he is WANTED BY ITALIAN GOVERMENT BECAUSE OF HIS INVOLVMENT IN CIGARETTE SMUGGLING.ANd some time ago people around him were involved in HUMAN TRAFFICING.Type in Djukanovic at google-see what u find.He is one of the richest men in MOntenegro-how did he do it?He wants independency for his own selfish little reasons.
SERBS AND MONTENEGRINS R TWO GENETICALLY,HISTORICALLY AND TRADIOTINALLY CONNECTED PEOPLES.WE FOUGHT AND BLED TOGETHER-SIDE BY SIDE.IF INDEPENDENCE IS WHAT PEOPLE(NOT MILO) WANTS-THEN THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD BE.WE WON"T SAY A THING.THEY WERE NEVER 'UNDER OUR PAW'-THEY JOINED US BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO.INTERESTING FOR ALL U POLITICALLY CORRECT BOSNIAKS-MILOSEVIC IS A MONTENEGRIN LAST NAME.
AND YOU VULGARIAN BOY(the Bulgarian) DON'T MAKE ME SHOW THOSE PHOTOS OF BULGARIAN WAR CRIMES AGAINST THE SERBS IN WWI-DOCUMENTED BY ARCHIBALD RODOLPH REISS-HEROIC DEEDS INDEED.WE GOT LUCKY...READ THE HISTORY A BIT-WE BEAT U EVEN BEFORE 1913. AND WWI.I DARE U TO MAKE ANOTHER COMMENT OR DENIE THIS.
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Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2005 at 05:22
Edited:I wrote some nonsense.Completely unrelated to the topic...
------------- "It's better to be a billionair for a lifetime then to live in poverty for a week"
Bob Rock
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Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2005 at 07:32
NOTICE:
I can understand that this can be a potentially politically and ethnically heated debate, but please keep it civil and cultured or it will soon be shut down!
Ethnic insults will be specifically not tolerated.
------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2005 at 07:48
Stay calm,or we will sent you in a Net Gullag.
------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Posted By: cg rommel
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2005 at 09:56
Originally posted by Mila
Well, I'm Muslim, CG - so it's different. For me, they're the people
who brought me my faith. I don't view the Ottoman Empire as being that
bad anyway, but I believe in Islam and I'd be willing to suffer much
more than we did to get it.
It must be similar to you, with the Byzantine Empire and Orthodox
Christianity? You must feel some sort of gratitude and connection
simply on faith, yes?
|
umm probably..... but i hate when turks on the net say that we should
be grateful to them.... i mean it was 500 years of terror (to those who
didnt convert to islam).......
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Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2005 at 12:20
Originally posted by cg rommel
Originally posted by Mila
Well, I'm Muslim, CG - so it's different. For me, they're the people
who brought me my faith. I don't view the Ottoman Empire as being that
bad anyway, but I believe in Islam and I'd be willing to suffer much
more than we did to get it.
It must be similar to you, with the Byzantine Empire and Orthodox
Christianity? You must feel some sort of gratitude and connection
simply on faith, yes?
|
umm probably..... but i hate when turks on the net say that we should
be grateful to them.... i mean it was 500 years of terror (to those who
didnt convert to islam).......
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not necessarily considering that many reigons preferred turkish rule to their own or western princes and thats a fact.
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2005 at 13:29
Originally posted by cg rommel
Originally posted by Mila
Well, I'm Muslim, CG - so it's different. For me, they're the people
who brought me my faith. I don't view the Ottoman Empire as being that
bad anyway, but I believe in Islam and I'd be willing to suffer much
more than we did to get it.
It must be similar to you, with the Byzantine Empire and Orthodox
Christianity? You must feel some sort of gratitude and connection
simply on faith, yes?
|
umm probably..... but i hate when turks on the net say that we should
be grateful to them.... i mean it was 500 years of terror (to those who
didnt convert to islam).......
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Here we'll have to disagree. For Montenegro, certainly, it was terror - it was 500 years of practically unbroken war.
For other regions, though, it wasn't that bad. They were certainly more
tolerant than any of the other empires to rule in this region, with the
exception of Austria-Hungary but they didn't take control of us until
relatively modern times.
The Ottoman Empire built on what we already had in a way other empires
didn't. The Roman Empire, for example, destroyed every visible trace of
Illyria in Bosnia and Herzegovina. The Byzantine Empire, at least in
Bosnia and Herzegovina, had no direct influence and very little
indirect influence beyond Orthodox Christians. It certainly didn't
control the state like the Roman, Ottoman, and Austrian Empires did. So
I can't really comment on the Byzantine Empire's role here.
Both the Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians were constantly trying
to destroy Bosnia's bogumil monarchy and people. The Ottomans didn't do
this in reverse. All of Bosnia's Synagogues, Orthodox Churches, and
Catholic Churches (except those built since the Ottoman Empire) were
built during it. That says a lot in itself.
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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2005 at 15:28
I think Montenegro should be independent. My country will have another friendly(or neutral) country at balkains.
But It will harm serbia much. It would make serbia land locked.
cg rommel
If there were 500 year terror at ottoman soil, why no nation(ethnic) destroyed. All ethnich before ottomans is living after ottomans too.
For conversion, If I am not wrong, most of albanians converted because of their local lords cruelty. Not because of ottomans cruelty,(converting islam can resque them from their local lords) and most of bosnians converted because of crusaders made against them.
I dont know any other mass conversion. There were armenian(hemshins), bulgarian(pomaks) and greek converts(totaly asimilated) but they are minority.
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Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2005 at 17:41
I reacted on Bulgars claim about 1913.On few other threads I noticed few similar insinuations on behalf of Serbs.That's all I have to say,gents.Anything more?
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Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2005 at 17:43
The reasons why Bosniaks converted r a bit complexed then that Mortaza...nobody can say:"This is why they converted...I know the exact reason"...it's not all black and white as u think.
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Posted By: Death
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 14:45
I know i am kind late on this topic and im new but here goes: In a month from now i just hope that Montenegro will be independent and listen up Mila,ok you have your opinion but it seems to me that you have some what of a closed mind,(pazi sad-look here),if Montenegrans vote 55% for independense and it fails i just hope Serbia goes to a referendum on the same issue. By the way,i am no Serbian nationalist,i aint no Serb so you can guess where i am from(Vojvodina-you guessed it),and if there is any justice in this world every nation in the region would for a couple of years forget Serbia("they "have a lot of problems,economic,politic--coruption etc.). One word-DECENTRALIZATION,solves problems for everyone. Oh man , you dont even want to know what i think! And i bet that you Mila wouldn't even think about any of this stuf if Dr Djindjic was still alive so..... Lets see,if Montenegro goes then its gone,then we can join forces and work for a better country(be it Serbia or Montenegro or i dont care..) But if they stay then i would like people to shut up and do their work. Ready for a debate!
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Posted By: YuGo
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 00:04
Everyone is saying how this will benefit Montenegro so greatly! And it probably will; the country could become is great as Croatia! Hell, even Slovenia! Our Pride and Joy!
But... Everyone forgets to mention, while bashing how horrible Serbia is, and how everything that has ever went wrong in the Balkans is somehow related to how Serbs caused it, and Bosniaks had to go through it... you all just forget about the millions of people living in Serbia today.. It's not like their lives have been perfect! Think about it! Not all Serbs, although this must be so horribly hard to believe for all of you, are Bad, blood thirsty monsters... and some actually just.. well... if you can believe it, want to live in a stable country, and earn a descent amount of money to raise their families.... just think about what life is like for them.. after Sanctions, being blamed for the Balkan Wars, refugees, NATO Bombing, corruption, and now soon.. the independence of Montenegro and Kosovo... but hey, they are Serb? Who cares about them.. if their families aren’t lost in mass graves in some hill in Republika Srpska then they don't even matter, right?
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Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 08:18
Originally posted by Death
(pazi sad-look here),if Montenegrans vote 55% for independense and it fails i just hope Serbia goes to a referendum on the same issue.) |
I support this...just a few months ago i wanted montenegro with serbia...now i don't think so anymore.I mean, u should see the campaign in montenegro...it's like:when we're independent, we'll become like switzerland...or : serbia's holding us down...what a load of bs.90 % of all tourists in montenegro are from serbia! The only foreign tourists are russian millionairs who r gradually buying the most eminent villas at St.Stephen's...a lot of ''good'' is it gonna do for ordinary people.I mean,all tourists who crave to spend their holidays at east adriatics are coming to croatia...where they'll find much better accomodation (and more beautiful seaside btw).
What's even funnier that 1/3 of all montenegrins declares as serbs!So, if they become independent, they'll have a serbian ''minority'' of 200.000 people (out of 600.000) I probably mentioned that 2/3 of serbian families are rooted in montenegro ( in closer or further past)...And if u look at traditional montenegrin hats, u'll find the four S signs at the top (serbian trademark)-even funnier .One of montenegrin writers who has been living in sarajevo for 15 years, said that montenegro should be independant, but that's no reason for some montenegrins to go around saying they're celts, goths etc-instead of accepting they're serbs and extremely closely related to serbia in every possible way.I agree completely.instead of all these rubbish campaings, they should just say : ok bros, this state sucks to high heaven(very true btw)-we want a country of our own-see u later.But this is not the case.
And the man who started this camp ( montenegrin PM -djukanovic) SUPPORTED the serbia/mont. union in the 90's-and supported milosevic.However, it became clear to him that the only way for him to preserve his power (and his freedom, since he's wanted by the italian authorities for some illegal cigarette trade) is to have a state of his own.
Ironically, today a much better way for montenegro to gain indep. is to organize referendum in serbia-the no. of votes for separation would be much higher then 55 %...people here are fed up with everything...there's no money, no work, our politicians are corrupted- just to see some of their statements would be the most bizzare thing u ever saw.
By the way,i am no Serbian nationalist,i aint no Serb so you can guess where i am from(Vojvodina-you guessed it), |
Are you magyar or rusyn or slovak or...?
------------- "It's better to be a billionair for a lifetime then to live in poverty for a week"
Bob Rock
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Posted By: Jay.
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 13:27
Originally posted by YuGo
Everyone is saying how this will benefit Montenegro so greatly! And it probably will; the country could become is great as Croatia! Hell, even Slovenia! Our Pride and Joy!
But... Everyone forgets to mention, while bashing how horrible Serbia is, and how everything that has ever went wrong in the Balkans is somehow related to how Serbs caused it, and Bosniaks had to go through it... you all just forget about the millions of people living in Serbia today.. It's not like their lives have been perfect! Think about it! Not all Serbs, although this must be so horribly hard to believe for all of you, are Bad, blood thirsty monsters... and some actually just.. well... if you can believe it, want to live in a stable country, and earn a descent amount of money to raise their families.... just think about what life is like for them.. after Sanctions, being blamed for the Balkan Wars, refugees, NATO Bombing, corruption, and now soon.. the independence of Montenegro and Kosovo... but hey, they are Serb? Who cares about them.. if their families aren’t lost in mass graves in some hill in Republika Srpska then they don't even matter, right? |
You're my hero.
Well said. I live in Toronto, Canada where there is a huge Serb population and most of them are making a decent living and are not monsters, but beleive it or not, they're actually nice people. In my opinion, we're very missunderstood and judged quickly..
------------- Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava
Only Unity Can Save the Serb
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Posted By: Death
Date Posted: 11-May-2006 at 17:45
Just a few more days to go.I am watching TV Montenegro and im sorry to say but i see propaganda and not objective jurnalism.
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Posted By: Richard XIII
Date Posted: 12-May-2006 at 04:18
Entire Europe tries to be unified but ex-Yugoslavia tries every year to be broken in smaller pieces and you are proud of this.
------------- "I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."
Albert Einstein
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Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 12-May-2006 at 07:18
If you're refering to Death, he's Hungarian from Vojvodina-so i don't think he's got anything to do with the whole ''balcanic chaos'' thing...And he's spot on with his last post- their propaganda is tragi-comic...
------------- "It's better to be a billionair for a lifetime then to live in poverty for a week"
Bob Rock
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Posted By: Digenis
Date Posted: 12-May-2006 at 08:53
Why do we have to vote in this poll? The people of Montenegro must decide for themselves!
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Posted By: Milos Obilic
Date Posted: 12-May-2006 at 18:46
Montenegro is historically Serbian land, and the people who live in
there are mostly Serbs. There's no montenegrin ethnicity. Montenegro
will not become independent. Serbs in the Serb Republic will hold a
referendum for independence next year, and later after the Serb
Republic becomes independent, will join the state union of SCG. (United
Serbian States)
------------- небески народ
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Posted By: Death
Date Posted: 12-May-2006 at 22:36
I dont share that opinion mister Obilic(Gde si brate?).I would like Montenegro to go.Everybody needs to stay where they are!Serbs will stay there and i hope they return to Kosovo too(im not raising a new or diferent issue and dont coment on Kosovo).We dont need new states,all in the EU. OR The diferent scenario!You or should i say WE can always choose another alternative.The posibileties are endless.No state is.
***** So,Monenegro leaves,we work,work,work and after a long time our grandchildren pick the sweet fruit of our labour(or capital...lol)
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Posted By: RomiosArktos
Date Posted: 13-May-2006 at 19:08
if someone looks at the map of the Balkans he/she will notice that the
states of the Balkans exceed in number those of the western part of
Europe.What will the benefit be for the people of the Balkans if more
and more small and possibly not financially viable states are born in
the Balkans?
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 13-May-2006 at 19:11
I think it'll happen other places soon enough. Once you lose all your external enemies.
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Posted By: Death
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 00:29
What enemies Mila?Montenegrans and Serbs are not enemies.But maybe thats the real problem-thinking in categories of enemies and allies.Sadly thre are still a lot pf people that think that way.Mila you must net be one of the,we are pioneers,we are all Titos pioneers,and some will or wont accept that.And even after all this horor that our CITIZENS went thro we must find the streinght to continue.Ok i agree,if you dont want to be called a pioneer then i wont call you that but you (everyone) is my friend,brother,comerad and a person for who i am ready to do much,I hope that one day we all get together again and if the independense of Montenegro is the price then please lett it be independent as soon as posible.We are all the same,we are all human,WE ARE HUMANITY,dont let me down because im trying my best to honour you. Soon,mark my words,soon the whole of mankind will join hands together.This universe is so big that there is (one astronomist said it and i was watching it on CNN,no no , on national Geo the other day,..lol) a huge rock heading our way and the chanse of it hitting us are 100%, so all the sacred books are right about that(yeah movie like-Armagedon style). One more thing and im dead serious- in order for an instant unification of the World i would kill and kill and kill if needed,that is how much i love mankind. So you reader be the judge of what i was saying here.How can i love Man and at the same time kill them....am i thinkng im God,etc.? Montenegro (will or wont be) independent but what hapens next?Think about it!
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 00:38
I wasn't talking about us, Death. I was talking about Western Europe.
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Posted By: Death
Date Posted: 17-May-2006 at 19:02
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 17-May-2006 at 19:42
I think, from what I have seen over the past weeks, that I must update my opinion.
I think there will be strong support for Montenegrin independence but a
strong voter turnout will probably ensure it is not victorious. If
voter turnout is tremendously high, 80% and above, I think the result
will be between 40 and 50 per cent for independence. If it is 60% or
less, I think they will get the 55% they need to separate.
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Posted By: Death
Date Posted: 17-May-2006 at 23:48
I havent been thinking about it much, i just hope that things go smooth and i wish Monteneegrans a happy and fruitfull independens.
Ubice me Milos.
So what...you are guessing that if a rain falls,Montenegro isnt gona be independent(that is how radicals count their votes- the kmetovi go out on the fields and dont get to vote) Just kidding. Thats preety much it,low turnout- more chanse. Wait lets count- i dont have a clue about the numbers but here goes- Squiptars are all For, or mostly and thats about 1/4, real Monteneegrans(ethnic) are gona vote for too-most of them thats about 1/4 more -thats already half,...no,no, less-alot of relatives in Serbia,they dont want to loose contact. Damn. Complicated. I was thinking that many Serbs voted for Milo but they are not gona vote for independense.Lets say that these Serbs that will vote For are the number we need to fill out that gap in the Monteneegrans that wont vote For. AAAAAAHHHHH- i dont know, its morning, i have to study,....gona think about it tomorow.........(ljudi, ocemo da bacimo neki kes? eto kladionice- you want to bet on who will win?....cmon,10 euros........0,55 quota-FOR,...0,45 quota-NOT) Place your bets-the quotas might change. I say For-tomorow(today) i will try to explane why i think so.
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Posted By: Death
Date Posted: 18-May-2006 at 15:19
2 and a half days to go
Homer,Iliade:"...Nego se crnoj noci pokorimo sada i sebi veceru zgotovimo. Zatim iz kuce hleba i mnogo saberite drva pa cemo celu noc do zore ranosvanke mnoge paliti vatre,da sjaj im do samih stigne nebesa da nam kako Ahejci dugokosi ne bi pregli pobeci,sve po noci, po sirokim plecima morskim". That would be the end of an era that both represents so much good and at the same time so much bloodshed and tears and destruction. We are all heading in a bright future where there is less space for colectivism so the individual is free to exspres itself thro all its potential,amition and beauty. Lets not just talk about "if" Montenegro is independent but also what that means!
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Posted By: Death
Date Posted: 18-May-2006 at 18:25
Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 18-May-2006 at 18:35
Have u seen their ''historian'' on RTCG- explaining that they're always mentioned as a separate ethnicity to serbs... He obviously didn't read Njegos... or their 1855 constitution...back then they were ''land of serbs''...
Have u seen that little hungarian boy playing gusle some time ago on B92 ? He's very good actually... .... POOLJEEECE SOKOOO !
------------- "It's better to be a billionair for a lifetime then to live in poverty for a week"
Bob Rock
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Posted By: Death
Date Posted: 18-May-2006 at 19:15
Little Madjar,ahahaha.Me and my father are still jokeing about it. Farkas Adrijan i even rememberd his name. That little kid is going to have a real identification crisis when he comes out of puberty. Oh man, i dont know. If the Montenegrans think that they will have a better life then im all for it.I know that my atitude wont change twords Montenegrans. I am still for it that we make a referendum if their fails. See here, Serbs(or the people of Serbia) have the knowledge that they could do something(that might be good for them) bu they dont do it. And that doesnt apply to just this referendum thing. Sometimes i think that Serbia is a real good student of Nietzsche but in reverse. Insted of I WILL they say and do that I WONT.That is a big NECU(I WONT) and that is the tragedy.
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Posted By: Death
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 10:20
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 14:31
Silence descends on Montenegro ahead of independence vote
PODGORICA, Serbia-Montenegro (AFP) - A ban on campaigning has been
enforced in Montenegro, ahead of a weekend referendum that may give the
republic independence from the vestigal remains of the former
Yugoslavia.
Despite the campaign blackout and the quiet of the streets of the
capital, Podgorica, there were still signs of the massive gathering of
the night before, when at least 50,000 Montenegrins rallied for
independence from the country's union with Serbia.
The fervent independence supporters had descended on the city's main
square Friday from across the mountainous republic, forming a scarlet
sea of Montenegrin flag, banners and balloons.
The opposition-led bloc that favours maintaining the union with Serbia
had ended its campaign two days earlier with a rally in the same square
attended by at least 20,000 supporters.
Sunday's independence vote, if it succeeds, will mean the final
dissolution of the communist Yugoslavia federation, four of whose six
republics broke away in a series of bloody 1990s wars.
The republics of Serbia and Montenegro, what remained of Yugoslavia,
agreed to a loose union in March 2003. But the already strained
relations between Belgrade and Podgorica continued to worsen and
Montenegro's pro-independence government pushed for the independence
referendum as soon as it could.
Campaigning silence came into force in Montenegro at midnight on
Thursday, forcing media outlets and pollsters from commenting on the
referendum. The blackout is to last until 13 hours after polling booths
open at 8:00 am (0600 GMT) on Sunday.
But following Thursday night's show of force, columns of cars beeped
horns and waved bright-red flags into the wee hours as they zipped
through Podgorica's narrow streets.
On Friday morning, the republic's red flag still adorned the buildings
of the capital and the streets were still lined with billboards urging
the people of the Balkan republic to vote "Yes" or "No" in Sunday's
referendum.
In the referendum, voters will be responding to the question: "Do you
want Montenegro to be an independent state with full international and
legal legitimacy?".
Under conditions set by the
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http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=European+Union - European Union ,
the referendum will only pass if at least half the mountainous nation's
485,000 registered voters take part and at least 55 percent of the
latter vote "Yes".
Two recent surveys by major Montenegrin research institutes credited
the pro-independence bloc led by Prime Minister Milo Djukanovic with
slightly more than enough support to carry the vote. More than 56
percent of those polled said they favoured secession.
But the pro-union camp led by the main opposition Socialist People's
Party, which is closely linked to Belgrade, believes it will prevail.
Newspapers on Friday were only allowed to publish technical details for
voters, such as instructions on being discrete during the process and
not showing anyone their ballot papers.
"A vote showed to anybody else will be proclaimed invalid," one daily said.
More than 3,300 domestic and foreign observers will supervise the vote and more than 550 journalists reporting on the event.
Podgorica's new airport terminal, opened last weekend, has been crowded
since Monday. Dozens of charter flights have been organised to bring in
thousands of Montenegrin citizens from western Europe and the United
States for the vote.
Serbia's state-owned train and bus companies have provided free tickets
to Montenegrin students and other citizens living in Serbia who have
right to vote in the referendum. Most are expected to arrive in
Montenegro on Friday or Saturday.
Backed by the European Union, the union of Serbia-Montenegro
was formed in 2003 with joint foreign, defence and human rights
ministries but separate economic systems, including customs services
and currencies.
The deal obliged the two republics to stay together for three
years but said either could vote on independence once that period was
over, an opportunity Djukanovic's government wasted no time in taking.
Podgorica says it no longer wants to be dominated by Serbia,
which has a population of almost eight million compared with
Montenegro's 650,000 inhabitants.
It argues that its main goal -- EU membership -- will be achieved faster without Serbia.
The latter's EU bid has been hampered by Belgrade's failure to
capture war crimes fugitives such as Ratko Mladic and the unresolved
status of its southern province of
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type= -
>
http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=Kosovo - Kosovo , a territory populated mainly by ethnic Albanians and administered since 1999 by the
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http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=United+Nations - United Nations.
------------- [IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
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Posted By: Death
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 15:10
Originally posted by Mila
Sunday's independence vote, if it succeeds, will mean the final
dissolution of the communist Yugoslavia federation, four of whose six
republics broke away in a series of bloody 1990s wars. |
All other things are cool but YU wasnt a communist federation.It was a socialst federation.Who wrote that?is that the original text?
Im a communist,.....lol Montenegro,Montenego ole ole ole (metalika je moj dobar drugar,.....ahahaha)
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 15:12
Hehehe, it's the original text from AFP yes.
------------- [IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
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Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 17:45
Originally posted by Death
Montenegro,Montenego ole ole ole (metalika je moj dobar drugar,.....ahahaha)
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Misa Tumbas rules!!! Metallica...i know the guy who interviewed him...(not personally)
Can u find a link to that clip ? Or the Rango ?
------------- "It's better to be a billionair for a lifetime then to live in poverty for a week"
Bob Rock
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Posted By: Death
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 18:35
Im sorry,no.I just saw that clip.
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Posted By: Death
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 20:09
Tomorow , tomorow, ...la la la , la la la
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Posted By: Death
Date Posted: 20-May-2006 at 09:10
! day to go,....my dad sais that it wont be.That junking Hungarian dont know split. I say 54 % and independense cause Europe is going to give the green light for that. So my opinion is FOR 54% and +. WOOOOO James Brown-doin' it to death.(wow thats me)
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Posted By: Death
Date Posted: 20-May-2006 at 23:11
Today is D day. I will be in Belgrade,lol.I beleve an independent MN.
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 20-May-2006 at 23:42
Montenegrins (43% of the population) are expected to vote for independence.
Bosniaks (10% of the population, 30% of which declare themselves simply as Muslims) are expected to vote for independence.
Albanians (5% of the population) are expected to vote for independence.
Croats/Gypsies/Egyptians (3% of the population) are expected to vote for independence.
Serbs (32% of the population) are expected to vote to remain in the union.
So it all depends on the voter turnout - interesting, for the first
time in a Montenegrin election/referendum, the government is making
sure Bosniaks and Albanians have equal access to polling stations in
their regions of the republic.
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