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Admiral YI Sun Shin

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Evildoer View Drop Down
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  Quote Evildoer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Admiral YI Sun Shin
    Posted: 19-Sep-2004 at 07:58

By the will of God

Plus, where is your source of freemen being Turkish rowers? All sources I have seen so far designate them as Christian slaves.

Again, you reaffirmed the fact that Venetian sailors were freemen and even added the fact that they are experts.

Plus they could be lured into traps and broken to pieces.

 



Edited by Evildoer
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2004 at 21:25

Evildoer,

Originally posted by Evildoer

Plus, where is your source of freemen being Turkish rowers? All sources I have seen so far designate them as Christian slaves.

My sources concerning the rowing systems and the use of freemen on Mediterranean oared warships comes from two great books on the subject by Professor John F. Guilmartin--his classic (and back-in-print) Gunpowder and Galleys, and Galleons and Galleys.  Check them out.

Again, you reaffirmed the fact that Venetian sailors were freemen and even added the fact that they are experts.

I assume you mean oarsmen (as opposed to sailors).

In any event, the Venetians were not the only Christian maritime power in the Mediterranean.  As I already pointed out, the Spanish made the switch to convicts by the mid-16th century, and the Venetians were eventually forced to do the same thing. 

Plus they could be lured into traps and broken to pieces.

???

Peace,

David

"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2004 at 21:34

So give us the breakdown about how the Korean p'anokson and kobukson would have survived the broadsides of galleons and carracks...

Okay, to start with, Koreans know geography, Portuguese more or less.   But still, southern Korea is filled with tiny islands...like 600 of them.  Straights in between like zig zag puzzles.  Koreans lure galleons and carracks with fishing boats, till they reach the dreadful chain net conducted by militia forces on land.  It adds up with the water current that flows them into the straight at 11 knots, and then you have carracks flipping over to cross the net, or hit the land filled with rocks and boulders. 

Those who manage to cross the net faces Korean panokson.  Not like in conventional closing in and bording fight, but in a t-cross fashion.  Koreans keep distance and bombard, while Portuguese try to move closer and shoot at the same time.  Koreans would shoot first, because it turns faster (Korean ships had flatter bottom that limited speed but enhanced turning speed).  Overall, till here, they fare somewhat in battle.

At the same time, Turtles would slowly move foward.  Cannons bounce off its deck because it is ironclad.

After while, crack!  Turtles ram into Portuguese navy like a siege ram.  It fires also.  Because it's covered, bording fight cannot occur. 

****,****, the current pulls the portuguese towards Koreans in an unpleasant manner! 

Grrr..
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2004 at 23:14
Originally posted by demon

So give us the breakdown about how the Korean p'anokson and kobukson would have survived the broadsides of galleons and carracks...

Okay, to start with, Koreans know geography, Portuguese more or less.   But still, southern Korea is filled with tiny islands...like 600 of them.  Straights in between like zig zag puzzles.  Koreans lure galleons and carracks with fishing boats, till they reach the dreadful chain net conducted by militia forces on land.  It adds up with the water current that flows them into the straight at 11 knots, and then you have carracks flipping over to cross the net, or hit the land filled with rocks and boulders. 

Those who manage to cross the net faces Korean panokson.  Not like in conventional closing in and bording fight, but in a t-cross fashion.  Koreans keep distance and bombard, while Portuguese try to move closer and shoot at the same time.  Koreans would shoot first, because it turns faster (Korean ships had flatter bottom that limited speed but enhanced turning speed).  Overall, till here, they fare somewhat in battle.

At the same time, Turtles would slowly move foward.  Cannons bounce off its deck because it is ironclad.

After while, crack!  Turtles ram into Portuguese navy like a siege ram.  It fires also.  Because it's covered, bording fight cannot occur. 

****,****, the current pulls the portuguese towards Koreans in an unpleasant manner! 

Demon,

See my reply on the "ironclad" issue in the "Historical Amusement" Forum.

Peace,

David

"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2004 at 18:44

His skill was so highly viewed by the Japanese that he was the official deity of the Imperial Japanese Navy well into the early 1900's.

http://explanation-guide.info/meaning/Yi-Sun-sin.html

You may wish to compare me with Lord Nelson, but do not compare me with Korea's Admiral Yi Sun-shin. He is too remarkable for anyone.

Togo Heihachiro

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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2004 at 21:42
Originally posted by ROKMC

His skill was so highly viewed by the Japanese that he was the official deity of the Imperial Japanese Navy well into the early 1900's.

http://explanation-guide.info/meaning/Yi-Sun-sin.html

You may wish to compare me with Lord Nelson, but do not compare me with Korea's Admiral Yi Sun-shin. He is too remarkable for anyone.

Togo Heihachiro

 

Togo's comment is genuinely interesting, but I'm still curious as to why no one has commented on the Imjin War/Lepanto comparison I made on pg 2.

Don Juan of Austria killed almost as many enemy troops in a single day, as Yi Sun-sin did during the entire Imjin War.  In terms of ships, he destroyed a little over half as many as Admiral Yi did, but again--it was in one day.

So, does this make Don Juan the "Second Greatest Admiral"?  That would be a bit odd, IMO.

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I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


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  Quote I/eye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2004 at 22:41

his kill ratio is much lower.. 1:2 compared to 1:140

his ratio of ships destroyed/captured was 1:18 compared to 0:360

and he had more resources to begin with than Yi did

i'm not sure what the ratios would be for his entire career but i don't think it would surpass Yi's..

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2004 at 18:17
Just as a side note, the IMmortal Admiral YI Soonshin drama has started in the States.  Today starts episode 3.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2004 at 02:27
really? wut station???
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2004 at 03:33
channel 19, at least in LA, at 8:00

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  Quote Hando Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 19:38
Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner

Originally posted by Tobodai

oh hes more than that, I think if you add all enemy ships sunk and battles would , statisitcally, be the best admiral in history.

OK let's not get carried away...

 

Although he didnt design the turtle ship, as claimed, he greatly improved it and made new ones, in addition to his panokson and good cannons he would troll around the southern coast of Korean shores and trap japanese ships between the islands and in bad areas and blow them to smithereens.  I would tell you more and post links but I know thee are many other people here more than capable of doing htat.

He was definitely a talented fellow.

However, one still has to wonder what would have happened if the Japanese had been able to secure Portuguese naval support for the Korean Invasion.



Forgive me for bringing up an old thread but I am new here. But my goodness Landsknechte, if I didn't know you any better, I would be under the impression that you are pretty Eurocentric in your view of World history and rather condescending in your views of East Asian history.
By the way, are you German (ie. European) or American? I am a big fan of German history, as that was my major.
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  Quote The Chargemaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 17:51
Hello! Smile
 
Please, can someone show me some maps of the Imjin war(1592 - 1598)?
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  Quote Gun Powder Ma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 13:02
Originally posted by demon

Yi then used the T cross, surrounding the incoming ships, followed by another one, and crushed the upcoming forces

Of what use is crossing the T with the small fire power of the Korean ships? Did they sink ships by artillery?


The battle was over.  100,000 Japanese marines under 330 ships were defeated by only 12 Korean ships

That would mean that two-thirds of the initial Japanese expeditionary corps (reinforcements aside) were annihilated by the Korean navy? I find that not easy to believe, where do you have your battle stats from?




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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 13:21
If you're interested in the Imjin War, Gun Powder Ma, then I would suggest getting a hold of the actual chronicled diary of Yi Sun Sin (although quite a hefty read). Also, follow the direct sources that wikipedia.org cites on the Imjin War article, and there you will find your answers. If you knew much about the capabilities of this Korean fellow, you could easily relate his skills and abilities to that of Lord Horatio Nelson, ironically both dying in the last battles of the war (one against Toyotomi at Noryang Point, another against Napoleon at Trafalgar).
 
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  Quote Hando Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 14:14
Originally posted by Preobrazhenskoe

If you're interested in the Imjin War, Gun Powder Ma, then I would suggest getting a hold of the actual chronicled diary of Yi Sun Sin (although quite a hefty read). Also, follow the direct sources that wikipedia.org cites on the Imjin War article, and there you will find your answers. If you knew much about the capabilities of this Korean fellow, you could easily relate his skills and abilities to that of Lord Horatio Nelson, ironically both dying in the last battles of the war (one against Toyotomi at Noryang Point, another against Napoleon at Trafalgar).
 
Eric


Professor Michael Hawley's book "The Imjin War" came out last year and is a great scholarly book. Very good read. In it he claims that the Japanese Army was the largest the world had at that time. Even more so than the Spanish who's Empire was the largest.
He further claims that Yi Sun Shin was a greater general/admiral than Nelson and even of the English during the Spanish Armada and of the Venetians during Lepanto, cos Yi fought off an Armada that was greater than the European wars.


Edited by Hando - 02-Sep-2006 at 14:15
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  Quote Gun Powder Ma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 14:29
So an army larger than contemporary European armies was defeated by a naval commander better than the English Nelson. And me stupid was thinking that he wrote a book about an Asian war.
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 14:34
In defense of your point, Japan's overall population during the 16th century was much greater than any one European kingdom or empire. Whether Admiral Yi was a greater admiral than Nelson is a matter of opinion unless Michael points out all his reasons and speculations as to who had greater victories (which I'll admit, Admiral Yi did a lot with barely anything in the last half of the war, and relied in several battles on his Geobukseon to put enemy ranks into chaos while shelling the enemy from afar with the Panokseon, am I spelling that right?). To give an example of how large the battles of Gravelines and Lepanto were, the Spanish Armada set sail to invade England on May 8, 1588 with 131 ships and 35,000 men, while the Turks at Lepanto lost an estimated 30,000 men with 240 ships lost. In comparison, Toyotomi Hideyoshi's invasion of Joseon Korea in the first phase of the Imjin War, 1592-1593, he landed an invasion force of an estimated 160,000 troops, while the second invasion force from 1597-1598 Toyotomi landed an invasion force of 140,000 troops. By the end of the war, the Korean population had suffered severely, losing an estimated 1 million including civilian casualties. Of course, the war would have grave implications for the economic and agrarian strength of Korea for centuries to come.
 
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  Quote Hando Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 15:00
Originally posted by Gun Powder Ma

So an army larger than contemporary European armies was defeated by a naval commander better than the English Nelson. And me stupid was thinking that he wrote a book about an Asian war.


Yes, you are correct on both of your two statements.


Edited by Hando - 02-Sep-2006 at 15:05
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  Quote Gun Powder Ma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 18:17
@ Preobrazhenskoe

The question is whether the entire 160,000 respectively 140,000 troops were shipped across all at once or by a ferry service. As long as we do not have sufficient information on that point, it is fruitless to compare naval battles like Lepanto and in the Channel with troop transports. We cannot refer from that activity the size of the Japanese fleet which is anyway only of secondary importance to its quality.

Japan was by the way not much more populous than the most populous European states at the time. For 1600, Maddison notes

France: 18, 5 million
Germany: 16 million
Italy: 13, 1 million

Yoshida gives 18,5 million for Japan in 1598 based on its annual grain output of 18.5 million koku (with an estimated consumption of 1 koku (150 kg) per head) and Hayami gives 12 million for the same point in time.

Nor may the Japanese army may have been larger than, say, the Spanish, although this might not have been impossible due to the prolonged Japanese civil war. In any case, beside the homeland forces, the Spanish had at that time up to 75.000 troops in Flandern alone, supplied the lion share to the 28.500 marines at Lepanto (not counting additional 40.000 sailors and oarsmen of various nationality), held wide possesions in southern Italy, still manned numerous fortress along the southern Mediterranean shore, apart from running a colonial empire on the other three of four remaining continents.

Kind of imperial overstretch, but the quantity was there and in terms of quality and equipment the Spaniards excelled anyway.

Overall, Lepanto and the Armada were on a different scale than the naval fighting in Korea, most certainly in terms of military tactics and naval technology, but perhaps also in terms of sheer number of participants.

Lepanto:

Christians: 206 galleys, 28.500 marines, 40.000 sailors
Ottomans: 208 galleys, 27.000 marines, 50.000 oarsmen

The Armada consisted of only 130 ships with 30.000 men, but the overall tonnage must have exceeded those of the Japanese and Koreans by several times, and the fighting, as we know today, was anyway decided not anymore by grappling and boarding, but by fast firing and long ranging ship artillery.

All in all, all four participating fleets would have most probably wiped the floor with the petite Korean turtle ship. Naval warfare was simply on another scale in the Atlantic and the Mediterranean.



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  Quote I/eye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 18:45
Originally posted by Hando

Originally posted by Gun Powder Ma

So an army larger than contemporary European armies was defeated by a naval commander better than the English Nelson. And me stupid was thinking that he wrote a book about an Asian war.


Yes, you are correct on both of your two statements.
 
didn't he make 4 statements?
 
about the size of the army, the commander, himself, and the author of the book?
 
though he's still correct on all of them..


Edited by I/eye - 02-Sep-2006 at 18:49
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