Here is a long summery.  Just take what you think is important

Okay, be4 I start presenting Admiral Yi, I want to say that he is NOT that Yi Sun Shin in Age of Conquerors.  That game made Korea out of imagination...

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Imjin War:

It all started after Japanese unification under Doyotomi Hideyoshi.  He was an ambitious men, he watned to conquer india.  He also needed to give land to his warriors who served under him.  So, he decided to invade Korea.

The initial Japanese Expeditions were divided into 9 groups, all sent before April 6:

1-Gonishi Yukinaga (18700 men)

2- Gato Kiyomasa (20800)

3- Guruda Nagamasa (12000)

4- Simazu Yoshi-hiro (15000)

5- Hookushima Masanori (24700)

6- Gobayakawa Dakakake (15700)

7- Mori Terumodo (30000)

8- Ukida Hide-yie' (10000)

9- Hashiba Hidekasu (11500)

158800 men in first expedition.  They were armed with sword, shield, spears, bows, and most importantly, muskets.  These were introduced by the Portuguese, and these weapons were not known by Korea.

The first wave reached Busan.  The soldiers, never seen a musket in their life, thought that these Japanese were using spears and so brought longer spears to "deal" with them.  Of course, they failed miserably.

The Japs continued to move on.  Before Yi got into action, he received the following transmission:

-Japanese ships number nearly 500

-They captured Busan, Kimhe, Yangsan, etc

-Though the Admiral in that region (kyongsan- and his name is Won kiun) destroyed 10 ships (a lie), overwhelming number of Japanese streamed on and thus he retreated

Meeting place : Dang Po

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I believe they were also called Ywuejin people - in less than a century after the invasion, they would conquer China and construct the Qing dynasty.

Francis Drake? Yi Sunshin was no pirate...

Historywiz, I thought you said you were a prof...

The Jurchens--the Japanese fought against them too, during the Imjin War.

Francis Drake? Yi Sunshin was no pirate...

Pirate?  No, no, no---"El Draque" was a privateer!  

OK let's not get carried away...

He was definitely a talented fellow.

However, one still has to wonder what would have happened if the Japanese had been able to secure Portuguese naval support for the Korean Invasion.

"The Jurchens--the Japanese fought against them too, during the Imjin War"

Actually, they didn't, Nurhaci did offer help, but Korea was afraid of the rising power of the Jurchen, so they pleaded to Ming not to, and this was rejected. 

"However, one still has to wonder what would have happened if the Japanese had been able to secure Portuguese naval support for the Korean Invasion."

If Korea has Ming's support there is no way Japan could have won, the resource and manpower of Ming is inexhaustable and even if ming is toppled by internal rebellion the Manchus would then help Korea since Japan would have been a threat.

Privateer or pirate... all the same thing. KGB thug or Mafia thug.

He was not just a talented fellow. He was a Poseidon. Even without Portugese help Japan might have conquered Korea without him. He defeated Japanese navy at enormous odds. If he just lost a single battle, whole of Korean navy would have been doomed. The ships under his command were the ONLY warships Korea had. (That was why he had only 12 ships after he returned from exile and while he was in exile a stupid commander lost all the others.)Note that Korea was a de-militarized nation at the time with only 3000 garrison at Seoul (!!!).

Francis Drake was not the naval commander in charge of defeating armada - he was under someone else's control. By the way Brits had advantage all along because they were fighting on their own seas - Spaniards could not navigte well in dark North oceans - plus their ships were designed to fire from distance whereas Spanish were more of transport-grapplers, and had to carry troops as well in place of sailors. Plus Brits had a better experience.

Even at the on start of the invasion, almost all experienced Spanish admirals and seamen were opposed to it. It was a stupid blunder made by a Catholic-fanatic who knew nothing about navy (Philip II).

Portuguese navy would have been defeated.. a little more work for Yi Sun Shin, but no real effect to the war

I don't think so.. People were rising up in arms, Chosun army was regrouping, and Ming forces would not have let Japan get near the Ming border.. but of course, without the best admiral in the world, it would have been much more difficult

I don't think the Portugese would have made a difference either.

Just look at Zheng Cheng-Qong's victory over the dutch years later.

I heard that the King of Korea did not wanted help from "barbarians" such as Jurchens and rejected the offer.

I don't know if that is 100% certain.  Ming was in its decline in that era.  They were running out of money, and imjin war did deplete their treasury.  That resulted in the rise of Qing.

My point is that Ming during imjin was not Ming back then when it commenced.  It was weakened by corruption.

Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Originally posted by Evildoer I believe they were also called Ywuejin people - in less than a century after the invasion, they would conquer China and construct the Qing dynasty. The Jurchens--the Japanese fought against them too, during the Imjin War. Francis Drake? Yi Sunshin was no pirate... Pirate?  No, no, no---"El Draque" was a privateer!

How is that carried away , no one I have seen, not Nelson, not Drake destroyed as many ships of the enemy.  WHy on earth could he not conceivably be the best admiral? Because hes not european?

Plus Drake and Nelson were from the greatest European sea-power with the world's best navy. They had advantage against the Armada, and at Trafalgar.

The only advantage that the tiny Korean navy had against the Japanese armada were turtle ships, which Yi Sunshin himself helped to build up. So he was indeed a genious and a political saviour in all sense of the world.

Admiral Yi's record:

Ratio of ships used:
Korean 1 : 7 Japanese

Ships destroyed, damaged beyond repairable, or captured by enemy:
Korean 0 : 359 Japanese

Casualties suffered:
Korean 243 : 33,780 Japanese

Warhead,

Well, I can only surmise that you are unaware of Kato Kiyomasa's campaign against the Jurchens (Orangai to the Japanese) in September of 1592.  Kato had 11,000 men, of which some 3,000 were allied Koreans, who disliked the Jurchens' raids.  A Jurchen fortress was taken, and a Jurchen Army was defeated in the field.  The fighting was fierce, but the Jurchens eventually withdrew.  Kato left Manchuria shortly afterwards, and though he planned to return, that was the only time the Japanese crossed into China, during the Imjin War. 

I agree about the Chinese manpower advantage, but the ability of a Portugeuse squadron to counter or negate the Korean naval threat would have freed up the Japanese on land, and even if they still ultimately had to pull out, it would likely have lengthened the war.

Peace,

David

Tobodai,

Originally posted by Tobodai Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Originally posted by Evildoer I believe they were also called Ywuejin people - in less than a century after the invasion, they would conquer China and construct the Qing dynasty. The Jurchens--the Japanese fought against them too, during the Imjin War. Francis Drake? Yi Sunshin was no pirate... Pirate?  No, no, no---"El Draque" was a privateer!         How is that carried away , no one I have seen, not Nelson, not Drake destroyed as many ships of the enemy.  WHy on earth could he not conceivably be the best admiral? Because hes not european?

OK calm down there, buddy.

No, I have no problem whatsoever with non-Europeans being considered for the title of "best admiral"--certainly, I'm a fan of Admiral Togo, and his performance during the Russo-Japanese War was a wakeup call for the West.

As for Admiral Yi Sun-sin, if the figures given by I/eye are correct, then he may indeed qualify, at least in terms of ships sunk and/or captured:

However, I assume that the statistics above relate to Yi's performance during the entire Imjin War.  At Lepanto in 1571, the Holy League Fleet under Don Juan of Austria sank, burned, and captured some 200 Ottoman vessels.  30,000 Turks were killed.

And that was a single battle.

So, I still feel we should be careful on how we judge all of this.

Peace,

David

I/eye,

Would you care to back that claim up?

The Korean ships would not have been able to withstand the firepower of  Portuguese vessels.

Peace,

David

Evildoer,

Relax.

I assumed you were at least semi-joking, as you used a  icon, so I returned the jest.

I did not mean to downplay Admiral Yi's accomplishments with my comment about him being a "talented fellow".  If I'm guilty of understatement, I apologize.

So was Admiral Yi!

You summary of the Armada campaign oversimplfies things.

It's true that the English "race-built" galleons were optimized for long-range gunnery, and were faster and more nimble.

The Spanish and Portuguese "high-charged" galleons, on the other hand, were designed and predominantly armed for close-range gunnery and grappling & boarding, which was the Spanish naval specialty, which they used with great success both in Mediterranean galley warfare and Atlantic sailing vessel warfare.

Still, the English ended up doing the most damage with short-range gunnery, during the engagement at Gravelines.

And to say the English had "better experience" is misleading--there were plenty of experienced officers, sailors, & soldiers with the Armada too, as you acknowledge below.

I agree it was a faulty plan on Philip's part--he never seemed able to grasp the realities that his men had to face. 

However, the fact that Hideyoshi decided to go on with the Korean Invasion without coming up with a suitable counter to the Korean Navy was likewise a major blunder.

Peace,

David

Evildoer,

I mentioned only a comparison to Drake, so I'll stick with that part of the debate.

At the time of the Armada, there was actually much debate over who had "the world's best navy".  Drake's raid on Cadiz should have been a warning to the Spaniards that a comparatively new form of naval combat* was making serious headway, but that wasn't a completely clear thing at the time.

The Koreans had more than just the turtle ship (kobukson).  They also had the p'anokson ("board-roofed" ship).  The novel design of the turtle ship has always gained the most attention from historians, but the p'anokson was at least as important to the Korean Navy, if not more so.   Certainly, the Koreans had far more p'anoksons than turtle ships.  Another interesting point (brought up by author Stephen Turnbull in Fighting Ships of the Far East Vol 2--Japan and Korea AD 612-1639) is the fact that, while Admiral Yi is closely associated with the turtle ship, he never commanded one in battle himself--his flagship was in fact a p'anokson!

Both were very heavily-gunned by Asian standards, and were superior to Japanese warships.  Turnbull noted that the Koreans produced "the most advanced range of shipboard cannon in East Asia".  Author Jan Glete, in his book Warfare at Sea, 1500-1650, made the interesting comment that European observers probably would have described the turtle ship as a type of galleasse--ie., a vessel with mixed oar and sail power, with a heavy battery of cannon--and the p'anokson likewise would have qualified as such.

Peace,

David

* I say "comparatively new form of naval combat" because the Portuguese had actually pioneered the use of standoff gunnery against the Muslims, at the Battle of The Malabar Coast, in 1503.

Happy to toss in my 2 cents--good luck with your research.

Actually about the Sea thing it was not on Korean seas. Of course it was closer to Korea, but Japanese were already familiar with the seas of the areas in which the battles took place, since it is practically their own back yard. It is like Great Lakes being just as much of an American waterbody as Canadian. On the otherland, the seas in which Spaniards engaged the Brits were unfamiliar to them, and the climate was different as well - the dark cloudy weather of British isles were a definate stumbling block to the men who usually sailed sunnier seas. Plus on their way back a storm struck them, sinking more ships than British cannons.

The British had a navy that was comparably the same size as the Spanish, whereas Korean navy was a speck compared to the number of ships Japanese had.

One parellel between Hideyoshi invasion and Korean one was that the victors won because of the greater firepower.

Originally posted by demon Well david, I bet that 12 european ships can never defeat 330 Turkic Ships the way Yi defeated 330 Japanese ships with only 12

Demon,

Unlike Korean and Japanese vessels (where the former were much more advanced, as Gubukjanggoon correctly pointed out), European and Turkish ships were comparable technology-wise, so the comparison you offer isn't entirely fair.

However, for what it's worth, in 1416 the Venetian Capitano Generale da Mar, Pietro Loredan, defeated an Ottoman fleet of 112 ships, with only 15 of his own.

Peace,

David

One advantage the Italio-Spaniards had was that Ottoman ships were manned by slaves, whereas Europeans used normal citizens to man them. And the slaves were often Christian, so they would have turned upon their enslavers whenever the chance allowed them.

Evildoer,

This is a totally inaccurate generalization.

First of all, the expression "Italo-Spaniards" is useless in this case, because it does not differentiate between the naval/military traditions of the various Italian city-states (eg., Venetian guns were amongst the very best in the world during the 16th century, whereas Genoese guns were not).

Secondly, we must examine in detail the two different rowing systems used on galleys.  The system employing "normal citizens" was the so-called alla sensile system, where free oarsmen were used.  Each man used his own oar, and the technique for rowing was a special skill.  These men were well-paid for the time.

However, as author John F. Guilmartin pointed out in his book Galleons and Galleys, by the mid-16th century "inflation had put oarsmen's salaries beyond the reach of Western Mediterranean powers and they instead turned to slaves and convicts, by definition less skilled and motivated."  The method of rowing used by these men was known as a scaloccio, and it used several men to a single oar. 

What this means is that by the time of Lepanto (1571), Spanish galleys were rowed by slaves.  So much for your "Europeans used normal citizens" theory.

However, the older system (alla sensile) persisted in the Eastern Mediterranean, amongst both the Venetians and the Ottoman Turks (some Turkish vessels had slaves, while many others were rowed by free men).  So much for your "Ottoman ships were manned by slaves" theory.

Peace,

David

The Ottomans had cannon too (good ones, btw), though the Spanish and Venetians generally placed more emphasis on artillery.

And the Turkish bow was probably responsible for more Christian casualties at Lepanto than any other single Ottoman weapon.  Among the victims was Agostino Barbarigo, the Venetian Second-In-Command, who was struck by an arrow when he raised his visor to shout orders to his men.

 Adm.Yi Sun-shin as good of a job he did, did not face a real navy and only fought hired transport.There was also a more than considerable advantage in knowledge of the area then said earlier, exploiting inlets and local depths.

Back to his impact, i believe it to be heavy. The face of the war might have been very different if the Japanese supply lines and reinforcements were kept intact.  Alone take Hideyoshi's tons of supplies,grain,coinage pay for the soldiers to buy it so they would not strip the countryside and its locals. The Admiral caused this to fail, the farmers and people arose leading them to be surrounded by enemies.

he fought both the transports as well as the real navy

and he knew the area because he took the time to study it. the Japanese could have done that too if they wanted to, because they had taken over southern Korea

I/eye,

So give us the breakdown about how the Korean p'anokson and kobukson would have survived the broadsides of galleons and carracks...

Peace,

David

do that in the imjin alternate scenario thread  in historical amusement forum.. it's the same discussion, and i already asked about the portuguese in there..

By the will of God

Plus, where is your source of freemen being Turkish rowers? All sources I have seen so far designate them as Christian slaves.

Again, you reaffirmed the fact that Venetian sailors were freemen and even added the fact that they are experts.

Plus they could be lured into traps and broken to pieces.

Evildoer,

My sources concerning the rowing systems and the use of freemen on Mediterranean oared warships comes from two great books on the subject by Professor John F. Guilmartin--his classic (and back-in-print) Gunpowder and Galleys, and Galleons and Galleys.  Check them out.

I assume you mean oarsmen (as opposed to sailors).

In any event, the Venetians were not the only Christian maritime power in the Mediterranean.  As I already pointed out, the Spanish made the switch to convicts by the mid-16th century, and the Venetians were eventually forced to do the same thing. 

???

Peace,

David

Okay, to start with, Koreans know geography, Portuguese more or less.   But still, southern Korea is filled with tiny islands...like 600 of them.  Straights in between like zig zag puzzles.  Koreans lure galleons and carracks with fishing boats, till they reach the dreadful chain net conducted by militia forces on land.  It adds up with the water current that flows them into the straight at 11 knots, and then you have carracks flipping over to cross the net, or hit the land filled with rocks and boulders. 

Those who manage to cross the net faces Korean panokson.  Not like in conventional closing in and bording fight, but in a t-cross fashion.  Koreans keep distance and bombard, while Portuguese try to move closer and shoot at the same time.  Koreans would shoot first, because it turns faster (Korean ships had flatter bottom that limited speed but enhanced turning speed).  Overall, till here, they fare somewhat in battle.

At the same time, Turtles would slowly move foward.  Cannons bounce off its deck because it is ironclad.

After while, crack!  Turtles ram into Portuguese navy like a siege ram.  It fires also.  Because it's covered, bording fight cannot occur. 

****,****, the current pulls the portuguese towards Koreans in an unpleasant manner! 

Demon,

See my reply on the "ironclad" issue in the "Historical Amusement" Forum.

Peace,

David

Togo's comment is genuinely interesting, but I'm still curious as to why no one has commented on the Imjin War/Lepanto comparison I made on pg 2.

Don Juan of Austria killed almost as many enemy troops in a single day, as Yi Sun-sin did during the entire Imjin War.  In terms of ships, he destroyed a little over half as many as Admiral Yi did, but again--it was in one day.

So, does this make Don Juan the "Second Greatest Admiral"?  That would be a bit odd, IMO.

his kill ratio is much lower.. 1:2 compared to 1:140

his ratio of ships destroyed/captured was 1:18 compared to 0:360

and he had more resources to begin with than Yi did

i'm not sure what the ratios would be for his entire career but i don't think it would surpass Yi's..

And how did they ship these troops across? All at once or by ferry service?

Of course it is not all at once. It is done by various expeditions having up to tens of thousands, not hundreds of thousands, at least in my knowledge. But these expeditions were mostly done all at once, minus the supplies and reinforcements. They blitzeriged across Korea and caught it with its pants down, but then Korea recovered.

^actually that's because the Ming was fighting a three-pronged war, in which the Imjin war was of secondary importance, which in my opinion was because the war wasn't on Ming Chinese soil, so why bother.

Well, we are both wrong then, for I said 80,000.

After many centuries and continuous Chinese dynasties upholding strong riverine and oceangoing navies (riverine to patrol the rivers and lakes in the southern half of China to maintain forces against rebellion and defense in general, oceangoing to escort and protect merchant fleets traveling abroad) the exploits of Admiral Zheng He in the previous 15th century seemed to mark the height of Chinese naval superiority in the East, as the Ming oceangoing navy was largely disassembled after his voyages. This was because of internal policies against expenditures that seemed frivolous, unneccessary, and favoring to eunuchs by the Confucian gentry-scholar elite, who retook power of Beijing away from the hands of the eunuchs (and of course, Zheng was a eunuch). With the policies of largely shutting their doors to trade, determining that China could produce most of what she needed within her own realm, the situation was only exacerbated with Japanese pirates raiding the eastern coast in the mid 16th century. This was concurrent with European merchants (as well as missionaries) who came into the scene and filled the vacuum of trade between China and Japan after China had pretty much excommunicated Japan from direct trade (Japan still assumed trade of incoming mainland goods by trading with China's trade partners, including Korea). As for the presence of the Ming navy in the Imjin War, they weren't entirely absent, since they fought all the way up to the last battle of the war, the Battle of Noryang Point. After leading the Japanese into an ambush at the narrow straight, the Koreans and Chinese shelled the Japanese ships from afar until the Chinese under Chen Lin, seeing that the Japanese under Konishi had suffered considerable damage, charged with his ships to engage in fierce melee, grapple-and-board style combat. With this the Japanese actually had a chance to inflict some damage with close range firing and grappling onto Chinese boats, and when Chen's flagship came under direct attack, Admiral Yi Sun Sin gave command to sail up ahead as well. This was the decisive last blow to the Japanese, and much like Nelson at Trafalgar, Admiral Yi was killed in the end, killed by a stray Japanese bullet.

I debated about this in http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=255 - http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=255 .

I don't exactly recall when the Japanese first produced it, but they seemed to have developed Tekkosen (鉄甲船) that was made... oh what the heck. middle of the 16th century. Give or take. (Note that it was before Joseon's turtle ship was produced.) It had cannons on each side of the ship and some huge rifle-like small cannon to counter enemy infantry that that are fairly close. Very few were produced, for they were still prototypes... but they successfully blockaded the Mōri clan its impact caused the clan to make peace treaty with Japan's most powerful man, Hideyoshi.

Cool. do you have non-Japanese Sources regarding the Tekkosen I want to do more research. did it influence Admiral Yi's Turtle boats?

This feels like beating a dead horse, but I had to add and make some corrections.

So forgive me if I think the Admiral Yi is the greatest naval commander in the history of mankind over Nelson, Drake, and whomever you can think of. 

No disagreement here, http://www.allempires.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=5725&FID=12 - kevpkevp . I totally agree with you. Though I never heard anything about Ming's navy... but that seems logical.

Just out of question, do you have any idea how Ming found out about Hideyoshi' failing health?