Israel’s Big Crime!

Even the name Jarusalam is gifted to the ancient Palestinian God, Salam. How can anyone claim rights on the region as the motherland of Jews? Even if it was, it isnt an excuse for the action of UN, settling Jews there.

So since Central Asia is the homeland of both Iranians and Turks, lets settle Iranians in Uzbekistan and Turks in southern Siberia, Altay mountains, and build a Turkish state there...

Edited by Oguzoglu

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri We know that ancient Greek writers have mentioned a mythical people called Philistine, of course we know nothing about their language, religion, ... (however it is not strange about mythical peoples), maybe Palestine was just a Greek name for Jews, anyway, as Zagros said, in the 2nd century Jews revolted against Romans, so a group of Romans invaded Israel, killed the Jews as much as they could and then occupied Jewish lands, is it true?

Ehm... the Hebrew scriptures (the Mikra or Bible) also talk about the Philistees (from who: Philistine -> Palestine): most famously King David of Israel fought and defeated King Goliath of the Philistees... but there are more mentions. The Phislistees lived around Gaza.

So no, the Philistees are no mythical people (they are also recorded by Egyptians as Peleset, Hittites, etc.): they belonged to the diffuse cathegory of the Sea Peoples, who invaded Egypt and other areas of the Near East and probably destroyed the Hittite Empire (from whom they got the knowledge of iron foundry, a military secret before 1300 BCE).

But Palestinians are not directly connected with Philistees: they just take the name of the land they live in, which comes from the Philistees. Palestinians are descendants of whoever lived there after Jews were exterminated by the Romans (Arameans, Syrians, Phoenicians, Greeks, Christian Jews or whatever).

Why do some posters here when refering to Jews seem to consider them as some kind of a race??

We tend to classify an individual organism via a set of observable physical characteristics. A single characteristic can be referred to as a "trait," although a single trait is sometimes also called a phenotype. In relation to a race we are usually using phenotypes.

There isnt anything recorded as a unique set of phenotypical features that all Jews share. We can find as well all kind of jews. White skinned Jews, black Jews, European Jews, American Jews, Mid-Eastern Jews, Asian Jews and so on. Therefore being a Jew doesnt have anything to belong to a race or sth. Being a Jew means simply that you are part of a religious group.

As to the Hebrew argument...Hebrew is just a language. Just because it  happens to be that most people who speak Hebrew believe in the particular religion aka Judaism, it doesnt follow that the terms Hebrew and Jews are the same.

Palestinians could possibly be as well, the Arabised descendants of the ancient Israelites, Philistines, Phoenicians and whatever other natives were in the region during antiquity.

Originally posted by Aeolus Why do some posters here when refering to Jews seem to consider them as some kind of a race?? We tend to classify an individual organism via a set of observable physical characteristics. A single characteristic can be referred to as a "trait," although a single trait is sometimes also called a phenotype. In relation to a race we are usually using phenotypes. There isnt anything recorded as a unique set of phenotypical features that all Jews share. We can find as well all kind of jews. White skinned Jews, black Jews, European Jews, American Jews, Mid-Eastern Jews, Asian Jews and so on. Therefore being a Jew doesnt have anything to belong to a race or sth. Being a Jew means simply that you are part of a religious group. As to the Hebrew argument...Hebrew is just a language. Just because it  happens to be that most people who speak Hebrew believe in the particular religion aka Judaism, it doesnt follow that the terms Hebrew and Jews are the same. Palestinians could possibly be as well, the Arabised descendants of the ancient Israelites, Philistines, Phoenicians and whatever other natives were in the region during antiquity.

 

http://www.aish.com/societywork/sciencenature/Jewish_Genes.a sp

Jews from Israel to South Africa have common genes

 

The findings were that most Jewish communities do indeed seem to be genetically similar

Sorry about this font btw...

 

amyway, the Jews are an ethnicity just as the Germanic peoples are,  just as the Arabs are. In fact the Jews & Arabs desend from Abraham.

Originally posted by Loknar In fact the Jews & Arabs desend from Abraham.

You should rather say that according to some mythology/religious beliefs/scriptures, it is believed that Jews and Arabs descend from Abraham. That would be correct. But you can't just say it is a fact, as if it was scientifically proven beyond any doubt, like the law of gravity.

The truth is probably different: while some Jews, most notably the very pure sacerdotal caste, can actually descend from a single man, maybe Abraham or maybe some other, on the bulk of Jews that is not true. Else they would have a single Y-cromosome haplotype and that's not the case. Most likely, the original tribes came from different origins (some were maybe +/- genuine original Jews, some, maybe most of them, assimiliated Canaanites and some even could be of the Sea Peoples).

In the case of Arabs it is even less likely any kind of common ascendancy. True that there is that myth of Arabs being descendant of Ishmail, but it's just a myth. My grandfather, an Italian aristocrat, pretended to descend from Hector the Trojan, according to some tardo-Medieval genealogy, but not even him could believe that. Too often people have pretended to add prestige to their origings by giving supposed ascendants that enhanced their imaginary pedigree. Just mind games for the gullible.

Originally posted by Loknar http://www.aish.com/societywork/sciencenature/Jewish_Genes.a sp Jews from Israel to South Africa have common genes

By claiming as source a biased Jewish site and an article of a Rabbi, it doesnt really help you to prove anything having the slightest validity.

I am well aware there is a group of ultra-fanatic rabbis and scientists in Israel who are claiming there are specifical "Jewish genes", meaning  a Jewish race but this theory is scorned in general by the majority of Israeli scientists as being religiously motivated.

Then explain to me how the Hebrews are NOT a race.

Hey, I've presented reasonable evidence and you refuse to believe any of it and go off about 'how i cant prove it'  i think i have done what i could. so if i am wrong post a little more than "I am well aware there is a group of ultra-fanatic rabbis and scientists in Israel who are claiming there are specifical "Jewish genes", meaning  a Jewish race but this theory is scorned in general by the majority of Israeli scientists as being religiously motivated. "

 

that statement isnt that insightful.

 

if you wish i'll find a non jew sourse since a jew who makes this claim backed up by DNA evidence must be lieing.

Originally posted by Aeolus Originally posted by Maju Actually this depends on the rabinic schools. Conversion to Judaism is possible (but not easy), while the question wether atheist or agnostic Jews are still Jews is not clear either (see Who is a Jew?). The most significative case was that of Khazars (a Turkic nation that had a kingdom in northern Caucasia in Medieval times), who converted en masse to Judaism. It is thought that significant deal of European Jewish blood, specially in Russia, comes from them (see khazaria.com). And how can a Jew be an Atheist at the same time? A Jew by definition is a theist since he is someone believing in monotheism aka Judaism. Since there is nothing like an Atheist Jew, If a person believes in no god then he is no Jew. He is simply an Atheist.

Think in Karl Marx: he was Jew by ancestry but atheist by convition. It's the dualistic national/religious nature of Judaism what messes up everything here. Marx obviously wasn't the only non-believer Jew. Trotsky was another and Woody Allen is surely another one (though this one is maybe agnostic).

While I would prefer that Judaism was only a religion, that is a private matter. Actually it's normally seen as something more: a nationality, where belief is secondary. In fact the policy of Israel consider Jew those whose parents (either one) are Jews (ethnically). Religion doesn't matter there.

Actually one could be ethnic Jew and Buddhist.

Originally posted by Loknar Hey, I've presented reasonable evidence and you refuse to believe any of it and go off about 'how i cant prove it'  i think i have done what i could. so if i am wrong post a little more than "I am well aware there is a group of ultra-fanatic rabbis and scientists in Israel who are claiming there are specifical "Jewish genes", meaning  a Jewish race but this theory is scorned in general by the majority of Israeli scientists as being religiously motivated. " that statement isnt that insightful. if you wish i'll find a non jew sourse since a jew who makes this claim backed up by DNA evidence must be lieing.

The Encyclopedia Brittanica (1973)
'The Jews As A Race: The findings of physical anthropology show that, contrary to the popular view, there is no Jewish race. Anthropornetric measurements of Jewish groups in many parts of the world indicate that they differ greatly from one another with respect to all the important physical characteristics." (vol. 12, page 1054)

Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem (1971)
"It is a common assumption, and one that sometimes seems ineradicable even in the face of evidence to the contrary, that the Jews of today constitute a race, a homogeneous entity easily recognizable. From the preceding discussion of the origin and early history of the Jews, it should be clear that in the course of their formation as a people and a nation they had already assimilated a variety of racial strains from people moving into the general area they occupied. This had taken place by interbreeding and then by conversion to Judaism of a considerable number of communities. . . .

"Thus, the diversity of the racial and genetic attributes of various Jewish colonies of today renders any unified racial classification of them a contradiction in terms. Despite this, many people readily accept the notion that they are a distinct race. This is probably reinforced by the fact that some Jews are recognizably different in appearance from the surrounding population. That many cannot be easily identified is overlooked and the stereotype for some is extended to all - a not uncommon phenomenon" (Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem, 1971, vol. 3, p. 50).

Encyclopedia Americana (1986)
"Racial and Ethnic Considerations. Some theorists have considered the Jews a distinct race, although this has no factual basis. In every country in which the Jews lived for a considerable time, their physical traits came to approximate those of the indigenous people. Hence the Jews belong to several distinct racial types, ranging, for example, from fair to dark. Among the reasons for this phenomenon are voluntary or involuntary miscegenation and the conversion of Gentiles to Judaism" (Encyclopedia Americana, 1986, vol. 16, p. 71).

Collier's Encyclopedia (1977)
"A common error and persistent modern myth is the designation of the Jews as a 'race! This is scientifically fallacious, from the standpoint of both physical and historical tradition. Investigations by anthropologists have shown that Jews are by no means uniform in physical character and that they nearly always reflect the physical and mental characteristics of the people among whom they five" (Collier's Encyclopedia, 1977, vol. 13, p. 573).

 

 Today being a Jew simply means that one is of the Judaistic religion or a convert to it, or else in a "brotherhood" of those who are. Therefore, being a Jew has nothing to do with race. We are familiar with a number of notable figures, such as Sammy Davis, Jr., Elizabeth Taylor, and Tom Arnold, in fact, who became Jews by conversion to the religion of Judaism. In fact, one is defined a Jew by legal dispensation or coercion, with race playing no part at all:

Funk and Wagnall's New Encyclopedia (1970)
"In 1970 the Israeli Knesset adopted legislation defining a Jew as one born of a Jewish mother or a convert." (vol. 14, p. 214)

H.G. Wells
"There can be little doubt that the scattered Phoenicians in Spain and Africa and throughout the Mediterranean, speaking as they did a language closely akin to Hebrew and being deprived of their authentic political rights, became proselytes to Judaism. For phases of vigorous proselytism alternated with phases of exclusive jealousy in Jewish history. On one occasion the Idumeans, being conquered, were all forcibly made Jews. There were Arab tribes who were Jews in the time of Muhammad, and a Thrkish people who were mainly Jews in South Russia in the ninth century. Judaism is indeed the reconstructed political ideal of many shattered peoples - mainly Semitic.... The main part of Jewry never was in Judea and had never come out of Judea" (The Outline of History, p. 505).

Therefore, we can clearly and confidently assert that there is no such thing as a Jewish race, nor ever can there be.