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10 Criticisms of Israel

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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 10 Criticisms of Israel
    Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 23:12
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

Although the democrats aren't the best I could never go for the party thats considered the poster boy for the bible. The Republicans are now also know as the bible party, and conservatives want to push their traditions and beliefs on the rest of the country and thats exactly what we are fighting now in the mid east.

I just wish a there can be a 3rd party that supports the original values of America, but still keeping control on the major aspects needed. We learned from the depression that the gov't needed to get into business and other things. But for the gov't to tell us whats morally wrong and to pry into our personal lives is wrong and un- American.

I'm a more secular conservative when it comes to social issues.  I've never been one who thinks that religion should interfere with any political decisions.  I really believe in conservatism because I believe that the good of the state is more important than excessive individual freedom and that rationality and social darwinism are better philosophies than the sentimentality and weak-mongering of liberals. 

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  Quote Winterhaze13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 13:28
Some more views on the Middle East situation:



Israeli People's Most Common Mistakes By Gilad Atzmon



The most common mistakes made by Israelis are as follows:

1. To fail to realize that there is no essential difference between Tel Aviv
and a Jewish settlement in the West Bank.

2. To believe that the creation of the state of Israel was an outcome of the
Holocaust.

3. To regard themselves as innocent people and thus as victims of the
Israeli­Palestinian conflict.

4. To believe that they live in a democracy and therefore that their
atrocities are legitimate.

5. To be convinced that they live in an open society which enjoys political
and ideological diversity.

6. To believe that the ghetto is behind them.

7. To be convinced that the 'Jewish state' is a legitimate concept.

8. To think that Israel is a shelter for the entire Jewish people and the
best answer to anti-Semitism.

9. To regard themselves as humanists.

10. To be sure that Israel is immortal.

For more information see: http://www.gilad.co.uk/mistakes.html
Indeed, history is nothing more than a tableau of crimes and misfortunes.

-- Voltaire
French author, humanist, rationalist, & satirist (1694 - 1778)
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 22:47

Although the democrats aren't the best I could never go for the party thats considered the poster boy for the bible. The Republicans are now also know as the bible party, and conservatives want to push their traditions and beliefs on the rest of the country and thats exactly what we are fighting now in the mid east.

I just wish a there can be a 3rd party that supports the original values of America, but still keeping control on the major aspects needed. We learned from the depression that the gov't needed to get into business and other things. But for the gov't to tell us whats morally wrong and to pry into our personal lives is wrong and un- American.

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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 16:38
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

Originally posted by Genghis

Unlike a lot of Americans I do not like israel at all.  They have just as much blood on their hands as the Arabs do and the very creation of their state was a massive act of theft from the Palestineans.

It is because of Israel that America is hated throughout the Middle East, without Israel America would probably have relations with Arab nations on par with that of European nations and others.  It's also illogical, the Israelis have 6 million people and no oil, the Moslems have a billion people and the majority of the world's oil.  However the Jewish vote and coffers keep politicians supporting Israel.  When I become President I'll end all that and hopefully be the first American President who's popular in the Mideast.

haha, Well you have my vote, as long as your not Republican.

Yeah I don't agree with being to friendly with Israel. I think we should just cut ties with them. Our gov't says they want to keep America safe, yet we defend Israel which is basiclly harming us involuntarily by causing alot of hatred towards us, and criticism. I think America should do things in the best interest of itself without stepping on to many toes.

Actually I am Republican but don't like Israel, which is an odd combination.

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  Quote Winterhaze13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 16:34

Dershowitz is very cynical, his book is completely one-sided and he ignores evidence that supports the Palestinian's cause. Many of his arguments are very thin and he lists about every single crime against the Israeli people but almost none on Palestinians.

He often presents his argument really early in the chapter and then rambles on for pages on crimes against the Jews that often don't have any relevance to his arguments. Am I suppose to believe that the Palestinians have a monopoly on violence in the region. In addition he tries to discredit Noam Chomsky, the most well-known and respected political thinker in the world.

Some of his arguments are so weak. I expect more from a prominant lawyer. In the section on Israeli's human rights record, he tries to justify it by saying that: Well, umm, Arab countries do it too. If I wrote that on a Political Science essay I would get a D. That does not justify Human rights violations nor does it give them a blank check.

Worst yet, he tries to pin the holocaust on the Palestinians by claiming that they had a moral obligation to accept Jews running away from Europe. The truth is that the entire western world is quilty of this. That's why the west recognized Israel because they didn't want Jewish people to come to their country. Canada and the United States turned away ships of Jews that were trying to escape and sent them back to Europe to die in camps. If we really want to prosecute everyone who is partly responsible for the holocaust then we can even blame German Jews who voted for the Nazis. But don't pin it on the Palestinians who are far less responsible than most people.



Edited by Winterhaze13
Indeed, history is nothing more than a tableau of crimes and misfortunes.

-- Voltaire
French author, humanist, rationalist, & satirist (1694 - 1778)
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  Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 10:57
Originally posted by Kuu-ukko

Israel is thought legitimate only because it is funded by the US government.

Originally posted by Illuminati

Which is on the UN list of terrorist groups.
Don't confuse US with UN.

Originally posted by Illuminati

As far as the BBc link. It means nothing.
?? You question and deny BBC? Oh well, resembles a six year old child shutting his ears and saying "I'm not listening!"....
 

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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 09:14
Originally posted by Genghis

Unlike a lot of Americans I do not like israel at all.  They have just as much blood on their hands as the Arabs do and the very creation of their state was a massive act of theft from the Palestineans.

It is because of Israel that America is hated throughout the Middle East, without Israel America would probably have relations with Arab nations on par with that of European nations and others.  It's also illogical, the Israelis have 6 million people and no oil, the Moslems have a billion people and the majority of the world's oil.  However the Jewish vote and coffers keep politicians supporting Israel.  When I become President I'll end all that and hopefully be the first American President who's popular in the Mideast.

haha, Well you have my vote, as long as your not Republican.

Yeah I don't agree with being to friendly with Israel. I think we should just cut ties with them. Our gov't says they want to keep America safe, yet we defend Israel which is basiclly harming us involuntarily by causing alot of hatred towards us, and criticism. I think America should do things in the best interest of itself without stepping on to many toes.



Edited by SearchAndDestroy
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  Quote Kuu-ukko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 08:36

Israel is thought legitimate only because it is funded by the US government.

Originally posted by Illuminati

Which is on the UN list of terrorist groups.
Don't confuse US with UN.

Originally posted by Illuminati

As far as the BBc link. It means nothing.
?? You question and deny BBC? Oh well, resembles a six year old child shutting his ears and saying "I'm not listening!"....
 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 08:06
Originally posted by Illuminati

once again you are ignoring history. Israel is not the invader. No one is necessarily the invader. It is just as much their land as it is the Palestinians. that land has been in the hands of many different groups all throughout history.

Jews have been in that region for centuries.

First of all, Jarusalem, the center of three big religions, has its name from an ancient pagan Arabic God, "Salem", and the city originally belongs to Arabs, But noone can deny the Jewish existance there for more than two thousand and 500 years.

Jews lived there together with Arabs since ancient times, but this doesnt mean Israel have the right to own there, because Jews lived all aover the world and they lost their homelands. And Jews havent ruled Palestine since ancient times. Today, Arabic settlements are very old and they own Palestine. If there happened a Jewish genocide in Europe, this doesnt mean that you have the right to violate other nations' rights, even to protect another nation's rights. So the action of collecting Jews all over the Europe and placing them into another country's (which has nothing to do with all these genocides or actions) borderlands is an ignorant and violating ideology since the beginning.

I wonder what would happen if a nation comitted a genocide to Turks all over Europe and after this the UN agreed on colecting all survivors and placing them to their homelands (imagine that there is no country such Turkey). So would they be able to divide all mid-southern Russia , northwestern China, Eastern Kazakhstan and Kyrgizistan and form a new independent Turkish state there? I dont think so. So what was the sin of Palestinians? Living in their homelands?

And all these violations arent all about invading another country's lands. Human rights violations and innocent people's massacres are the biggest problem. The Israel forces didnt only invade those lands, but comitted huge civilian massacres, that cannot be identified as "mistakes". While the Palestinians are trying to protect their houses and family's by throwing stones and attacking with their Ak-47s, the Israel forces are attacking those civilians with their tanks and massive warmachines. Is this a paranoia or hatred? Well, lets figure it out...

Anyway, those lands need peace and I wish it happens soon. We are all fed up seeing soldiers killing children or terrorists attacking civilians everyday on TV...

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 06:33
Why are their rich Arab brethern doing so little to help the Palestinians?

They're not wanting to harm their interest with good relations of the United States I think.
But does it matter? The fact that Arab countries don't help the Palestinians doesn't say that no-one should help the Palestinians?

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 00:03
Originally posted by Genghis

Unlike a lot of Americans I do not like israel at all.  They have just as much blood on their hands as the Arabs do and the very creation of their state was a massive act of theft from the Palestineans.

It is because of Israel that America is hated throughout the Middle East, without Israel America would probably have relations with Arab nations on par with that of European nations and others.  It's also illogical, the Israelis have 6 million people and no oil, the Moslems have a billion people and the majority of the world's oil.  However the Jewish vote and coffers keep politicians supporting Israel.  When I become President I'll end all that and hopefully be the first American President who's popular in the Mideast.



I agree.

I just hope you'll be a good prez.
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 00:00
There was never a Palestinian state in history but something has to be done about their condition. They are Jordanians and Syrians but this land has been in the hand of many people. Before the Islamic invasion it belonged to the Romans and Byzantines for centuries. The name was given to the land by the Romans after they sent the Jews into exile, Palestine=Phillistines.
Question:
Why are their rich Arab brethern doing so little to help the Palestinians?
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  Quote Illuminati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 23:16
Originally posted by ramin

Originally posted by Illuminati

once again you are ignoring history. Israel is not the invader. No one is necessarily the invader. It is just as much their land as it is the Palestinians. that land has been in the hands of many different groups all throughout history.

Jews have been in that region for centuries.



Americans sound much more logical when they don't talk about native people!  (hypotheticaly)


Ok Let's go back to the discussion:
first you should clear out what do u mean by "that land has been in the hands of many different groups"? Do you mean Italy, Iran, Turkey, Egypt have a right on Palestine as well?

but whatever, OK... Israel & Palestinians are the native people and they've lived there in peace together for many years -- AGREED. But what right do Jews have to throw their neighbors out of the land, destroying their homeland and their style of living? (Considering Jews' migration from that region long long time ago)



I wasn't referring to the Europeans, I was referring to the Natives.....Israelis and the Palestinians.

Jews never totally left that region either. You want to blame someone for the creation of Isreal...blame the UK and the UN. They are the ones that created the state for the Jews. Don't blame the Jewish for flocking to a nation that was set up for them by the UN.

Both sides perpetuate the problem. There are unjust murders on both sides. But, I do see one side standing in the way of peace more than the other. Which side ruined the Camp David Peace Accords??? The Palestinians did, because Arafat was a greedy terrorist who would give no concessions. His corruption has become even more apparent now that he is dead.

The main difference between the groups is that Israel has relative control over its civilian population and has a working government who can abide by a cease-fire.  The Palestinian Authority does not have enough control. groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad do nothing but stand in the way of peace. I see Abbas as a good person who truly wants peace. He needs to be the one in control. Not the terrorist groups.


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  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 22:37
Once the oil barrels run dry, it won't matter..

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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 22:26

Unlike a lot of Americans I do not like israel at all.  They have just as much blood on their hands as the Arabs do and the very creation of their state was a massive act of theft from the Palestineans.

It is because of Israel that America is hated throughout the Middle East, without Israel America would probably have relations with Arab nations on par with that of European nations and others.  It's also illogical, the Israelis have 6 million people and no oil, the Moslems have a billion people and the majority of the world's oil.  However the Jewish vote and coffers keep politicians supporting Israel.  When I become President I'll end all that and hopefully be the first American President who's popular in the Mideast.

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  Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 15:20
Originally posted by Illuminati

once again you are ignoring history. Israel is not the invader. No one is necessarily the invader. It is just as much their land as it is the Palestinians. that land has been in the hands of many different groups all throughout history.

Jews have been in that region for centuries.



Americans sound much more logical when they don't talk about native people!  (hypotheticaly)


Ok Let's go back to the discussion:
first you should clear out what do u mean by "that land has been in the hands of many different groups"? Do you mean Italy, Iran, Turkey, Egypt have a right on Palestine as well?

but whatever, OK... Israel & Palestinians are the native people and they've lived there in peace together for many years -- AGREED. But what right do Jews have to throw their neighbors out of the land, destroying their homeland and their style of living? (Considering Jews' migration from that region long long time ago)

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  Quote Illuminati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 17:15

Originally posted by ramin

Remember WWII? France? Nazi army and French partisans? the only difference is that Palestinians are Muslims, and they're willing to kill themselves along with the enemy( it's called Jihad in Islam). But you're right, that's crazy and Hamas is a terrorist organization, but let's not forget, Israel is the invader.

once again you are ignoring history. Israel is not the invader. No one is necessarily the invader. It is just as much their land as it is the Palestinians. that land has been in the hands of many different groups all throughout history.

Jews have been in that region for centuries.

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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 14:06

Remember WWII? France? Nazi army and French partisans?

Ironic analogy.

Now, people will argue that Palestinians had the land when it was taken from them. Well, that is true but the British technically controlled that area. Now, the British were not native to that land, but the Jews are.

The jews are no more native to the levant than the hungarians are to russia. Both migrated more than a thousand years ago. Yet the jewish claim is the strongest? If anything they should have been given Khazaria, the latest jewish state before Israel.

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  Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 11:55
Remember WWII? France? Nazi army and French partisans? the only difference is that Palestinians are Muslims, and they're willing to kill themselves along with the enemy( it's called Jihad in Islam). But you're right, that's crazy and Hamas is a terrorist organization, but let's not forget, Israel is the invader.
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  Quote Illuminati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 11:05
as far as israelis also killing more palestinians......Palestinians
use children as suicide bombers. They use children to smuggle
weapons.

Israel is controlled by a legitimate government, Palestine is
controlled by Hamas. Which is on the UN list of terrorist groups.

Now, as I said earlier israel has is militant terrorist groups also.
netiher side is completely innocent of terrorism, but one side
clearly

And which side started 3 wars against the other side?? The
Arabs tried to invad Israel 3 seperate times. Israel is just a
much stronger nation whose military is is better than the Arab
Armies. example being the Six Day War.

As far as the BBc link. It means nothing. So what if israel killed
more people. Israel is the one who is attacking the terrorists
before they terrorists attack them. Of course teh are going to kill
more. That doesn't mean the palestinians are more just in this
case.

Plus, israel has a much better ability to take out terrorists than
the palestinians do to kill israelis. And don't forget that the
Palestinians hide in and around women and children. their
bomb shops are always found in apartment buildings.

If palestinians don't want so many civilian casualties then they
should stop hiding behind women and children
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