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Sanskrit and the people who spoke it?

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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sanskrit and the people who spoke it?
    Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 12:08
i believe the aryan invasion theory is very real for pakistan, these floods in pakistan are giving us a chance to look at how the interior/village populations look in pakistan even in punjab and sindh, you may notice that these people look very mixed, many of them have dark skin but blondish hair and indo aryan facial features, they look very different from lets say people from Bengal or south india who's facial features are pretty different.
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  Quote PakistaniShield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 16:22
In the link below are images of Celtic Gods:
http://www.spelcastor.org/gods.htm

Perhaps they are also a form Shiva based on their common appearance??? Ermm


Here are some Shamanic spiritual depictions:
http://www.sequanicalendar.com/art.html

Shamanism is a spirituality originated in North Eurasia.  "hindu connection" anyone?


Edited by PakistaniShield - 02-Sep-2010 at 16:25
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2010 at 05:13
Originally posted by balochii

i believe the aryan invasion theory is very real for pakistan, these floods in pakistan are giving us a chance to look at how the interior/village populations look in pakistan even in punjab and sindh, you may notice that these people look very mixed, many of them have dark skin but blondish hair and indo aryan facial features, they look very different from lets say people from Bengal or south india who's facial features are pretty different.

I have uploaded the photographs of a number of South Indians(Dravidians) in another tread "difference between Indians & Pakistanis" by chander gupta.
What do they look like to you..? Aryan or Dravidian..?
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2010 at 05:29
Originally posted by PakistaniShield

In the link below are images of Celtic Gods:
http://www.spelcastor.org/gods.htm

Perhaps they are also a form Shiva based on their common appearance??? Ermm


Here are some Shamanic spiritual depictions:
http://www.sequanicalendar.com/art.html

Shamanism is a spirituality originated in North Eurasia.  "hindu connection" anyone?

The Celtic seal in the site was dated back to 150CE and the Pashupati seal was dating back to 3000BC(1300-1500 years before the so called invasion).
AIT/AMT claims Indo-Aryans came to Indus-Saraswati valley from 1700BC-1500BC.
Celts are known to have migrated to europe also during the same period.
Now the question is whether Pashupati was contributed to Indus-Saraswati people by Aryans or vice versa.Of which the answer is clear.



And i dont deny,even shamanism and animism may have Hindu connections.

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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2010 at 07:41
Here are some famous bengalis

Hussein Suhrawardy Former Prime minister of Pakistan

Amartya sen a Nobel prize winner
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2010 at 07:48
Anoushka Ravishankar a musician(daughter of Ravishankar)
Ravishankar the famous Musician
Subhash Chandra Bose
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2010 at 07:49
What do these people look like aryans or dravidians..?
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2010 at 10:40
Originally posted by PakistaniShield


Shamanism is a spirituality originated in North Eurasia.  "hindu connection" anyone?
I disagree,
 
Shamanism is the earliest religous expression of man and developed in all hunter / gatherer societies.  Shamanism developed first in Africa and then was spread by people migrating to other parts of the world.  Shamanism has remained longer in indigenous Siberians because as herders, they are closer to hunter gatherers than people with large scale agriculture.
 
As for Shamanism and Hinduism, Shamanism is clearly the older religion.  Hindusim, however, has preserved far more of shamanism than Islam or Christianity.  


Edited by Cryptic - 03-Sep-2010 at 10:43
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  Quote PakistaniShield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2010 at 19:58
Just about any form of animal/nature worship weather native american or south american or Shamanic must have "hindu" roots. Unhappy

even though "hinduism" is not a religion itself but a series of different cults/religions.  It was the Brits who termed them as "one"


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  Quote PakistaniShield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2010 at 20:01
Originally posted by Cryptic

 
Shamanism is the earliest religous expression of man and developed in all hunter / gatherer societies.  Shamanism developed first in Africa and then was spread by people migrating to other parts of the world.  Shamanism has remained longer in indigenous Siberians because as herders, they are closer to hunter gatherers than people with large scale agriculture.
 
As for Shamanism and Hinduism, Shamanism is clearly the older religion.  Hindusim, however, has preserved far more of shamanism than Islam or Christianity.  


I don't think there is such thing as "oldest religion"  since human beings had various tribal practices and religions going back thousands of years. It can be said that Shamanism is one of the oldest surviving spiritualities
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2010 at 23:02
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

What do these people look like aryans or dravidians..?
They look like they are racially caucasoids to me. If Aryan is a large ethnicity like slavic, I would say that the people are racially caucasoid and ethnically Aryan.  To my knowledge, with the exception of some asiatic tribal peoples and perhaps a few australoids, Bengalis are caucasoids and resemble most Indians and most Pakistanis. 
 
As a side note, are Dravidians caucasoids? 
Originally posted by PakistaniShield


I don't think there is such thing as "oldest religion"  since human beings had various tribal practices and religions going back thousands of years. It can be said that Shamanism is one of the oldest surviving spiritualities
I agree.  Shamanism as a concept, however, is by far the oldest spirituality.   The other religous concepts did not develop untill agriculture / domestication of animals. 
  


Edited by Cryptic - 03-Sep-2010 at 23:17
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2010 at 00:47
Dear Cryptic,

I dont know much about Shamanism.But Hinduism as Pakistani shield told is not a religion,but I dont think it is a group of cult/religions.The roots of every hindu sects is in Sanathana Dharma.And all sects have a common consensus on beliefs,gods(all gods and demigods are believed to be manifestations of one supreme power"Brahman") & Texts.
I think you need to know more deeply about Hinduism.
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2010 at 00:50
And as Pakistani shield told I am not trying to find a hindu root for everything.I am just posting what I have found out and felt.If pakistani shield felt that I am finding a hindu root for everything then it is just his understanding and not my intention/propoganda.
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  Quote PakistaniShield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2010 at 03:07
Originally posted by Cryptic

They look like they are racially caucasoids to me. If Aryan is a large ethnicity like slavic, I would say that the people are racially caucasoid and ethnically Aryan.  To my knowledge, with the exception of some asiatic tribal peoples and perhaps a few australoids, Bengalis are caucasoids and resemble most Indians and most Pakistanis. 
 


Not really. Except for a large group of people living in Northwest India, the majority look nothing like Pakistanis aside from common Caucasian skull. Also the same for Bengalis. only a minority of them look Pakistani. I don't mean just by color, but also face structure.

It's a bit like comparing Swedes and Italians. Their face structures are very distinct despite both being Caucasoid. 

As a side note, are Dravidians caucasoids? 


yes they are, though many or most show a small but significant Australoid admixture.


I agree.  Shamanism as a concept, however, is by far the oldest spirituality.   The other religious concepts did not develop untill agriculture / domestication of animals. 
  


There's no proof of that. What if there were practices in Africa and the Middle East found to be preceding Shamanism but are now dead. Shamanism is best described as the oldest living spiritual practice, but to say which religion/cult/spirituality is the "oldest" is very tough to say.




Edited by PakistaniShield - 04-Sep-2010 at 22:14
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2010 at 05:50

As I told earlier Hinduism cannot be called a religion it is rather a culture with roots in Vedic Dharma or Sanathana Dharma.Vedas originated in the banks of saraswati (And it cannot be defined by one or two posts here.)

Due to various reasons(natural calamities,Overpopultion,drying up of rivers etc) the saraswati people migrated to other parts of the country and settled on the banks of other rivers along with them they took their beliefs and religions also.All these new societies had their structure common the division of society on the basis of Varnas.

Brahmins : the priestly class who carried out the religious riuals and monitored customs and practices.

Kshatriyas : The warrior class who specialized in weapons and protected their settlements from outsiders/invadrers

Vaisyas(baniyas/panis) : The trader class who used to trade with other settlements or cities and earned revenue.

Shudras : the worker class who carried out all the works including farming.

 

Vedas ,Upanishads & most Puranas are called “Sruthi”  which means direct revelation through mouth and other texts ie some puranas,Epics and others are called “Smrithi” which means recollection or memory.

All the religious rituals and customs are based on Vedas.

There are 4 vedas.

Rik,Yajur,Sama & Atharva.

Most of the Brahmins in India follows the first two Vedas.Some learn the third veda also.

Nambudiri Brahmins of Kerala are Sroutha Brahmins who learns all Vedas and perform fire rituals like agni cayana & agnistoma.All other Brahmins are Smarta Brahmins

Dixit Brahmins of Karnataka and Maharashtra are Yajurvedi Brahmins they learn only Yajurveda.Yajurveda has two sects 1) Krishna Yajurveda & Shukla Yajurveda of which they are Krishna Yajurvedins.

Kulkarni Brahmins of Maharashtra are Shukla Yajurvedins..

Iyer Brahmins of Tamil Nadu are Rigvedi Brahmins.

Vajpayee Brahmins of North India(UP) are those who perform the ritual of Vajapeya during  Yajnas.

Similarly all Brahmins of India are associated to one or other veda and they are the priestly class of their particular locality.

 

There are basically 4 classes of Kshatriyas.

1)      Surya Vanshi 2) Chandra Vanshi 3) Agni Vanshi 4) Naga Vanshi

 

 

Maharana Pratap Singh of Mewar was a Shisodaya Rajput who belonged to Surya Vansh.Rathore Kurmi,Bedi & many others comes under Surya Vansh

 

The Rajputs Jadejas, Tomars , Chandels  & many others comes under Chandra Vansha

 The Pruthvi Raj Chauhan the last Hindu king of Delhi belonged to Agni Vansh The Rajputs Chauhan,Pawar ,Solanki,Vaghela and many others comes under AgniVansh.

 

Nairs,Nambiars,Samantha Kshatriyas,Kodavas  and others comes under Naga Vansh.

 

Baniyas or Vaishyas are the trader class of India.

 

And all other farming and working population comes under Shudra class.

 

 

All thses groups have different surnames based on the place they belong to,the language they speak and the nature of their occupation. But their religio-philosophical thoughts are based on Vedas only.

Discrimination based on castes was an evil practice which came into being due to the hunger for power and it was never suggested anywhere in any spiritual books.

 

In India from North to south & East to west we have several micro and macro societies which functioned in the above mentioned manner.All were having common roots but rituals & customs varied from place to place.But they were never part of different religions, was part of Sanathana Dharma only.And even villages all over india had their own governing bodies and their societies were divided according to the varnas.The village heads of north India were called Mukhiya,Sarpanj,Choudhary etc.In TamilNadu they were called as "Nattamai".In kerala they were called Madambi.

They were the rulers of the area they(village head) had a small army or a group of people who practiced martial arts to protect their village from outsiders.Village had its farming class & Trader class.

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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2010 at 09:07

There are lots of temples with different deities scattered all over India ,Nepal and other places where there are considerable number of Hindus.

These temples are constructed s per Tantra tradition based on agamas which originated from Vedas.The Tantrik practitioner who instills energy to the Vigraha(idol) is called “Thantri”

There are 4 different sects in this Shaiva(that related to Shiva),Vaishnava (that related to Vishnu),Shaaktha (that related to Shakti or female diety),Ganapathya (that related to Ganapathy)

 

A Kshetra or temple is the Oorja Kendra or Energy source of the Village surrounding it.

The  dieties  to be installed are decided based on the  nature of the place where the temple is to be installed.

The idols are basically constructed from Shila(stone/granite).The shila used for idol construction are classified into three 1) Sthree shila(female) 2) Purush Shila (male) & 3) Napumsak shila(eunuch) based on the Vibrational  &  sound characteristics of the stone being used.This is accomplished by studying the sound produced by the stone when knocked with mallets.

If the diety is a male diety the the idol(or linga) is made of Purush shila the receptacle(or yoni) in which the idol is fixed is made of sthree shila and the foundation on which the idol & base will be installed will be of Napumsak shila.

If the diety is female then idol will be made of sthree shila,base purush shila and foundation Napumsakshila.

This assembly will be installed in the Garbha gruha(sanctum) .Garbha Gruha will have 6 chakras installed below it 1) Mooladhara chakra2) Swadhishtana chakra3) Manipooraka 4) Anaahata 5) Vigyana chakra 6) Aagya chakra.

These charkas are interconnected in the ascending order and the Aagya Chakra is connected to the vigraha.And a mix of nine chemicals(navapashana) in a sealed copper pot with a vertical copper capillary tube touching the idol from inside is installed in the garbha gruha beneath the idol.

 Dimensional parameters of the idols are decided based on the tantra sect to which it belong to,moolamantra of the diety also is decided on the basis of the sect.After installation is complete the “Prana Prathishta” is carried out by the Thantri.During this process Thantroi instills Prana or universal energy(neuralenergy) into the diety.The diety is so dimensioned and installed that when moolamantra is recited ,it will vibrate in resonance and radiates energy.

 In case of Shiva LingasRudra mantra is used as moolamantra.Rudra mantra goes like 

Eka chame , theesras chame , pancha chame ,Sapta chame ,Nava chamaye , ekadasa chama and so on. Rudra mantra is in arithmatic progression ie 1,3 ,5 ,7 ,9 like wise

Kirlian photography was used to take the photographs of energy radiations from temple idols and it was observed that a properly dimensioned shivalinga was able to absorb & radiate 23 X1030 gauss of magnetic energy.

 

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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2010 at 09:41
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

I dont know much about Shamanism.
 
Shamanism is not a religion either, but a religous concept associated with hunter gather societies some herders and those with limited agriculture. Individual shamanistic religions are varied.  As a reflection of its hunter gatherer roots, shamanism assigns spiritual qualities to animals and land features.
 
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

As I told earlier Hinduism cannot be called a religion it is rather a culture with roots in Vedic Dharma or Sanathana Dharma.
I am confused.  If Hindusim is a cultural manifestation, what about trans cultural Hinduism such as the pre Islamic Hinduism in Malaysia, Cambodia and Indonesia and modern Hinduism in Bali?
 
Since even related cultures can vary greatly (espcially before unifiers such as railroads, mass education, radio and television), your statement seems to support Pakistani Shield's belief that Hinduism is a group of seperate, yet closely related religions like the native american religions. 
 
Hinduism has probably incorperated some cultural traits as religous norms like Islam has done with Arab culture.  Likewise, though Hinduism is not nearly as monolithic as the Abrahamic religions (Islam, Christianity, Judaism), I think it is a unified religion.
 
 
 


Edited by Cryptic - 04-Sep-2010 at 12:02
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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2010 at 10:51
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

What do these people look like aryans or dravidians..?
 
First of all, your picking and chossing pics, i am talking about the general population in bengal, south indian populations, Their facial features are mostly Dravdian,  but ofcourse there is probably some small indo-aryan influence aswell. None of these guys can ever fit in Europe or even Iran/Afghanistan for that matter
 
most people in the subcontinent speically in India are dravidians, the more west and north you go in the subcontinent for example towards pakistan or north to Kashmir, the indo aryan features become more apparant.


Edited by balochii - 04-Sep-2010 at 10:55
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  Quote PakistaniShield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2010 at 22:19
many Iranians and Afghans could actually pass for dravids due to elamite traces there. apart from people in the south and east, most Pakistanis cannot pass off as Indians or other south asians.

But then remember there was a huge exchange of populations in 1947. Even many indian tamils are said to be amongst the many Muslim immigrants that migrated to Pakistan
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 03:14

Originally posted by balochii

Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

What do these people look like aryans or dravidians..?
 
First of all, your picking and chossing pics, i am talking about the general population in bengal, south indian populations, Their facial features are mostly Dravdian,  but ofcourse there is probably some small indo-aryan influence aswell. None of these guys can ever fit in Europe or even Iran/Afghanistan for that matter
 
most people in the subcontinent speically in India are dravidians, the more west and north you go in the subcontinent for example towards pakistan or north to Kashmir, the indo aryan features become more apparant.

The photos that I have posted in the other tread of some famous malayalis and Tamils, it may resemble europeans but they are all dravidians.Whether i choose or not they are all dravidians.
For eg:- Vijay Nambiar , Shivshankar Menon,K.G.Balakrishnan,Mammootty,Shashi Tharoor all are Dravidians and belong to the southernmost state of India ie Kerala.The photos are given below





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