Sanskrit and the people who spoke it?
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: History of the South Asian subcontinent
Forum Discription: The Indian sub-continent and South Central Asia
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28560
Printed Date: 13-May-2024 at 11:17
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Topic: Sanskrit and the people who spoke it?
Posted By: balochii
Subject: Sanskrit and the people who spoke it?
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2010 at 18:53
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I was reading that Sanskrit originated some where in northern pakistan of today, areas like Peshawar, Swat valley, hunza etc.... some where there we all know that Sanskrit's most famous scholar was in Peshawar called Panini, this could be the reason why ancient Iranian language called "avestan" is very closely related to Sanskrit because Avestan orginated in next door "Afghanistan"
My question however is, who were the people who spoke these earliest languages like Sanskrit and Avestan? how did they look like? what was their culture like?
Many indian nationalistic people claim that they were just regular indians living way up in Northern pakistan mountains and were killed of by invaders.
I personally refuse to believe this theory, Indian nationalistic tend to take every thing for themselves, i have seen bengalis, tamils, etc.... claming pakistani lands and even afghanistan for themselves, they think they ruled this area. There is no fact in their claims.
But again, who were those people? did they just vanish or are they the modern pakistani people of today? just that they became muslims.
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Replies:
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2010 at 02:39
Panini is the Sanskrit Grammarian who gave a proper grammatic structure to Vedic Sanskrit and modified it into classic one.Helived in 200BC and sanskrit is much older than Panini.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2010 at 07:42
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Sorry Panini was known to live in 500BC in Pushkalawati(peshawar of present day pakistan).I confused him with Patanjali who wrote "Mahabhasya" Panini composed Ashtadhyayi an eight chapter grammar for sanskrit.He was not the inventor of Sanskrit. Sanskrit acquired a proper grammatical structure after Panini.He is known as the founder of Classical sanskrit. But majority of Sanskrit works had been composed even before Panini. I meant the 4Vedas & all their shakhas(branches),6 Vedangas Then Upanishads ,Brahmanams,Gruhya sutras ,Srouthasutras,Nirukthas,Prathisakhyams etc ie approcimately 13+ texts against each branches of vedas. A total of 17500+ books or collection of manuscripts in pre-classical sanskrit ie pre-panini sanskrit. Avesta and many works in Avesta were too pre-panini. Till date even linguists are trying to find out the original homeland of Sanskrit and Avesta. They have proposed many places like Central Asia,Germany,Greece ,Anatolia , Russian Steppe etc.This theory which has changed the Urheimat from time to time (and the theory itself has now changed) is called mainstream model which proposed these areas to be the place of origin of this civilization and languages. But unfortunately the archaeological & genetical proofs only attests a migration of Achaeans or hellenistic people to greece , celts to Europe But it fails to do so in the case of supposed Indo aryans invasion/migrations to Indus valley. There is no genetical/anthropological / archaeological proof available to suggest any invasion or migration of Indus valley as well as Saraswathi valley. This fact is known to almost all linguists who are still clinging on to the Aryan Invasion theory. So they have changed the name of the theory to Aryan Migration Theory. And they proposed that there was a migration which left no genetical proof or which left no change in material culture or behavioral pattern and living style of the Indus-Saraswathi valley people.. The proposal was for a trickle-in infiltration which never affected the genetical or material culture ie which left no physical trace,But(AIT proponants) they are at pains to explain how a "trickle" was able to radically alter India's linguistic and cultural landscape,when much more massive invasions of historical periods failed to do so. Now there is another proposal which is opposed by the main stream theorists which is the Indian Urheimat even though it is well attested in Archeological ,Genetical,Anthropological & Archeo-Astronomical terms. All the Anthropologists and genetists like Toomas Kivislid,M.J.Bamshad,Cavalli Sforza,P.A.Underhill has ruled out the possibility of a large scale migration/invasion to Indus valley from 7000BC till 600BC and world renowned archaeologists like j.shaffer.B.B.lal etc had ruled out any invasion much earlier on the basis of Homogenity of material culture in Indus-Saraswathi sites. Astronomical studies based on the planetaurium software had helped in finding out the correct dates & places of composition of many old sanskrit text books based on the planetary positions mentioned in it,based on which the place of composition of vedas is located somewhere near present day haryana of India. Now which theory to follow is left to you. |
Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2010 at 08:36
| ^ i will certianlly not follow your theory, thats for sure |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2010 at 22:52
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Dear friend there is no compulsion here for anything.I am interested only in a healthy debate. You are a free human being and you have the right like anyone else to stand for what you believe in..... Please dont take my posts personally..It is not against you or your beliefs
And its not my theory there are many Linguists ,Archaeologists and Genetists who are proponants of Indian Urheimat or Out of India Theory ,which I too believe in.  |
Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2010 at 13:25
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The problem is I can't debate with a person who is ignorant of history and very biased of his own hindu civilization |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2010 at 22:09
It's up to you whether to debate or not.We are far away from the debate now and you are giving your opinions about me.
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Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 09:16
| in my opnion the earliest of sanskrit people were exactly the same people that exist today in northern pakistan, they came through the aryan invasion from central asia. northern pakistans and even kashmiries to an extrent look very different from from eastern pakistanis and most of indians, their cultures are really different. |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2010 at 03:23
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Aryan invasion of South East Asia is a myth which is still propogated by imperialists and racists. Archaeologists,Geneticists,anthropologists and archaeo-astronomists had already proved this using scientific tools. The real invasion of this land actually took place after 600BC first by Darius the great then by Greeks under Alexander the Great in 4th century BC and afterwards it was ruled Greek Satrapy.Maurya emperor Chandragupta is known to have marriage relations with Greeks.Sindh& parts of present day pakistan & North west India was under Greek rule for centuries.Afterwards several invaders took control of this area viz.Indo -greeks,scythians,Parthians this continued upto 500Ad and during this period Hepthtalites or the white huns conquered this area and destroyed Taxila. These occurances are historically attested and it attests the genetical traits of people in this area too.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2010 at 03:38
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Another thing the latest hypothesis of Aryan invasion/migration is not favouring Central Asia. After central asia they transfered the Urheimat(land of origin) to Germany then Greece , then Anatolia and finally they have come up with a hypothesis saying Indo-Aryans originated in the Russian Steppes and the migrated to various area including India.This hypothesis is called "Kurgan Hypothesis". So this Central Asia claim is long obsolete say by 1970s. And OIT(out of India theory) is against Kurgan Hypothesis. |
Posted By: Kanas_Krumesis
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2010 at 10:27
WOW! Are you Commies? Because Jawaharlal Nehru, the father of modern Hindu nationalism and utopia about Indian originality of Aryan civilization, had a leftist ideas.
I`m not sure about your next conclusion. Aryan invasion in India 1500 BC is out of any question, if we talking about world`s (and seriuos) historic science.
Why are you not proud of your original culture of Mohenjo-daro and Harappa, which was really amazing but destroyed from Aryans? They left mostly their language in North India, but borrowed almost all from local culture. Because this pre-Aryan people was a Dravidian and speak some kind of Dravidian language? Modern Indians also have over 50 % genes of this ancient population.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2010 at 23:10
Dear friend the so called aryans never destroyed Mohenjodaro & Harappaand other cities.The latest archaeological discoveries includes approx. 600 of such sites.No proof for a sudden and abrupt end of civilization was found from any of these sites, which might have happened if there were an invasion.No change in material culture was found which would have resulted if there were a migration and a resultant mix of culture occurred.No proof for sudden destruction,fire or loot or arson was found in any of these ancient cities' remains, which would have happened in case of an invasion. Due to this reason only the Invasionist school changed their theory into migration. And when genitical proof and archaeological proof were against such large migration duuring a period from 7000Bc to 600BC they proposed a trickle-in infilteration on flimsy grounds and now the AIT/AMT/Aryan trickle-in proponents are at pains to explain the resultant change in Cultural/Linguistic/religious scenario of Indians. If you are really interested in this topic kindly visit the site http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/en/indology_en.asp - http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/en/indology_en.asp go through the reports and give aserious thought on the subject
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2010 at 01:06
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Dear Kanas_krumesis, I am not a communist neither Iam a nationalist.But i love my country and I dont believe that to show love to my country I have to prove that everything originated here. Infact communist historians like Romila Thapar,Sharma etc are supporting AIT/AMT.I am just presenting a view which I felt is true based on my reading and studies. The site which I mentioned earlier is that of Greek Indologist & linguist who taught Aryan Invasion theory almost throughoiut his career(till 1996).Afterwards he came to India and carried out his own research in the subject and afterwards. He found the AIT to be wrong and he started to oppose it.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 01:57
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Dear Kanas_krumesis, i hope this link will help you to have a better understanding about what modern geneticists thinks about Aryan invasion.Infact they have ruled out its very possibility, but please go through
http://sites.google.com/site/r2dnainfo/R2-Home/Aryans/reasons-why-the-aryan-invasion-theory - http://sites.google.com/site/ |
Posted By: Vajra
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2010 at 13:13
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Sanskrit speakers claim to be descend from banks of one of chief Regvedic river Saraswati. which is believed to be dried up now. ------------- 
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Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2010 at 13:28
| ^ where did you that info? |
Posted By: Vajra
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2010 at 13:48
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It's written in Rigvedas they consider it their mother river like certain castes in India have a river as their goddess where they perform their sacred rituals. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarasvati_River - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarasvati_River This is the only river that Vedic people have praised the claim to have came from these banks.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2010 at 04:29
| As Vajra told sanskrit didnt originate in pre-historic pakistan, instead it originated on the banks of Saraswati and Rigveda is the oldest sanskrit text in sanskrit and studies say that it was written some ahere near present day Haryana. |
Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2010 at 23:59
Sanskrit evolved from proto-Indo-Aryan and came with the Aryan migration. From what I've read the earliest known Sanskrit texts were found in Turkmenistan, but evidence also points further back to the region of the northwestern Caspian shores. I do not believe Proto-Indo-Aryan was ever spoken in South Asia. Sanskrit may have started towards eastern Europe around the Caucasus especially given it's close affinity with modern Slavic languages particularly Slovenian. Even the Slavic word for two "dwa" is the same as in Sanskrit which it's descendant languages have evolved into "doe"
I had theorized that due to their distinct vowal pronunciations, the Indo-Aryan and Iranic languages split because of separate migrations between their speakers. This theory is actually widely shared by scholars. I read the consensus is that the Iranic speakers of Pakistan followed about six centuries after the Indo-Aryan (possibly then Sanskrit) speakers.
You are asking about peoples who were an off-shoot of the Kurgan culture. There are many books written on Indo-European culture. you should look up these books. The best "answers" i have to your questions based on my research is the following: -They were various tribes of pagans who had not a single religion but many closely related cults varying from tribe to tribe. The Kalash of Northern Pakistan are perhaps the last remaining culture of these ancient Indo-Iranic pagans. -They looked like modern eastern Europeans, but after slowly migrating into Southern Asia and mixing with the darker skinned natives there came a hybrid race. however if you go to more remote locations of Northern Pakistan, Tajikistan you can still find Nordic types.
LOl you should see how many right-wing hindutva have hijacked wikipedia articles on this subject and won't let anyone edit. Even Pinani whom you mentioned is officially an "Indian" poet and anything to the contrary will be deleted by them. They have many high positions including arbitrators and administrators.
Agreed.
Most of Pakistanis are of the same Indo-Iranic stock mixed with native Asiatic peoples- including dravidians. The linguistics, genetics and traces of Indo-European culture all point to this. I doubt there is much question to this. A more interesting question would be who are the non-Indo-Iranic peoples of Pakistan such as the Hunza who speak a language unrelated to any other. No known language family in the world has been able to incorporate the Hunza language Burushaski. I truly am convinced they are remainders of a Pre-IE civilization that existed in Pakistan before the Aryan invasion. besides who is to say the region consisted of a single race or language family prior to the indo-Iranic invasions. ------------- http://pakhub.info"> 
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 02:43
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Please provide proofs for the so called "earliest Sanskrit documents of Turkmenistan". Please understand that "Kurgan origin" is still a hypothesis which is still refuted by many.And even the best of the scholars among the AMT proponants dont support any invasion today they only claim a trickle in infilteration to the area which is not substantiated by any proof. The results of genetical studies has also proved the other way around .The genetical studies has indicated the origin of R1a to be in India instead of Russian Steppe.(please visit http://sites.google.com/site/r2dnainfo/R2-Home - http://sites.google.com/site/r2dnainfo/R2-Home ) and archaeology has proved the existance of domesticated horse in India(even in south India) much before the so called "Aryan Invasion". Now the only question which needs to be answered here is prejudice which doesnt have any answer. What you want to believe and what not to is your personal interest and no proof can help it. Best way of ignoring the proofs are to paint them with nationilstic paint and crying foul against any body who is putting it forward. I dont think there is any use in debating in such a topic.
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Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 17:30
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LOL it seems Balochiis point is only being clarified here. If everything must have an "indian origin" there really is no point arguing. The domestication of the horse can be found through out the world. The only "scholars" who deny the Aryan migration are pseudoscientists who claim everything to be "Hindu" or "Indian" origin. Next thing we'll be hearing is the Spanish and Portuguese languages were brought into Europe from South America by the Hispanics. And they'll probably use European haplogroups in certain hispanic populations to support the theory that the Spanish and Portuguese migrated from South America across the Atlantic. Seriously some people really need to grow up..... ------------- http://pakhub.info">
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Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 17:40
There is no proof the Harrappan civilization was dravidian, nobody knows the exact language or ethnicity of these peoples. The Dravidian theory is strongly plausible, but yet to be proven. The non-Indo-European, non-Dravidian, non-Sino-Tibetian languages spoken in parts of India and Pakistan such as language isolates could suggest that the region was diverse with various populations prior to Aryan domination. Even Europe was diverse with ancient balkan and Finno-Ugric languages and this can be seen by the the existence of modern languages such as Basque, Hungarian, Estonian, Finnish and other smaller pockets of non-IE languages. There is actually a book that has been released covering the history of pre-IE Europe also called by many "old Europe" ------------- http://pakhub.info">
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 04:34
Good to know that you are thinking about growing up It was proposed by many of the so called scholars and linguists that Horse was brought to India by migrating aryans.That has very well been proved false. Apart from that they also claimed that animal husbandry, cultivation and religious rituals like fire rituals and others were brought to Indus saraswati valley by migrating aryans.All these claims had proved false.Archaeology had proved that Indus-saraswati people and even Mehr garh people were familiar with cultivation and animal husbandry. And AMT also attributes the whole of Rigveda and its rituals and its gods to migrating Aryans. Butthe Fire altars of Kalibangan(2700BC) & those of Lothal(2300BC) which dated a millenium before the so called migration has proved other way. And the the Linga, Pashupati(shiva) idols and Fertility goddesses(lakshmi) of Moenjodaro are purely Hindus gods and goddesses and are worshipped today also. Who says Indus-Saraswati civilization is dravidian.Toill date there is no proof available saying Indus-Saraswati people spoke dravidian. And the groups which you are indicating as descendents of Indus-Saraswati peopleare very micro groups as compared to the span of the Civilization. The Indus-Saraswati civilization spanned from Balochistan to Central karnataka of South India , approximately 2 billion square kilometres.And in the peak The civilization is estimated to have a population of 20 million. And due to natural calamities at various periods they had migrated to other river banks. Major rivers which contained the civilization are kknown to be Sapta sindhu(seven rivers of North west of the south asian subcontinent)including the Indus & rigvedic saraswati which dried up around 1900BC.Majority of Nadi stuthis of Rigveda which is composed in vedic sanskrit is about only saraswati which dried up in 1900BC ie 200-400 years before the so called migration.Apart from that sabarnmati delat Rann of Kutch ,Godavari & Gangertic plains.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 04:38
 Pashu pati or proto shivea of Moenjodaro  Lord Shiva |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 07:58
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The Pashupati Idol is
positioned in Advanced tantric yoga posture of hatha yoga indicating harappan
people knew about yoga This is purely indicating that thantra and yoga was
notintroduced to them by some invaders/migrants.Today also Hindu Sanyasins practice
yoga . Shiva is till date
worshipped as an ascetic and the
posture also has not changed..He is still called as Pashupati and is associated
with Antlers ,Tiger,Bull & snakes.The same diety which Harappans
wotrshipped 5000years ago is still being worshipped by Hindus in India today
also.Apart from this shiva is worshipped in Linga form also.There are 12 very
famous ancient temples in India where Shiva is worshipped as linga ,southern
most being Rameswaram inTamilnadu. According to early AIT
proponents everything like Yoga
,Tantra,Vedas ,Upanishads,dieties and all the religio-philosophical thoughts
that hindus follow today were brought to India by the Invading Aryans.But Archaeology had proved it the
other way.Nadistuthi in Rigveda is specifically speaking about Saraswati which
is located on the western border of present day Rajastan.This river only has
around 414 archaeological sites on its bank on either sides dating back to
pre-harappan periods. The Kalibangan site on
Saraswati bank has several fire altars prepared in the same pattern as fire
altars used for agnicayana & agnistoma.Lothal also has several fire
altars.Archaeologists had attested these.What were these fire altars doing here
in 2700BC if the culture and religion were introduced to Indus and saraswati
people by some invadersthat too 1000 years before the invasion or migration
happening. And how can one expect an
invader/migrant to write/praise about a river which dried up some 400 years
before his/her migration to that area. And Indra, Mitra, Agni,Vishnu,Rudra
and other deities are worshipped and are paid oblations through fire rituals
only.so In Kalibangan& Lothal they used to pay oblations to their gods in
2700BC also ie 1000 years before the so called migration. |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 08:02
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And as you say if these ancient people used to speak Burushaski or some other language then why not even one name of the place or rivers is Burushaski instead of Sanskrit..? In all other places where Indo-Europeans(or kurgans) migrated they have retained many pre-Indo european place and river names but not in India-Pak area.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 09:09
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Indus fertility Goddess 
Lakshmi : Hindu Goddess of Fertility and wealth  |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 09:09
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Fertility Goddess
worshipped by Harappans and even by Mehrgarh people was nothing other than the
ancient form of Lakshmi or Bhuvaneshwari.Till recently India was an agrarian
economy and all most all the agrarian families and land lords worshipped
fertility goddesses ie different manifestations of Lakshmi.In Kerala we used to
worship Bhuvaneswari . |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 09:19
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And about the Indo-European speaking people.India has maximum number of Indo-European speaking people than any other part of the world.More than 900 million(total population of India is nearly 1200million) people in India speaks Indo European languages.And many of these languages are as old as or even older than sanskrit which(I mean sanskrit) is considered as the elder sister of all the Indo-European languages. If Indus-Saraswati valley had any other language other than sanskrit as their language then that language had mysteriously vanished without even leaving a trace of it. But Modern Greece and many parts of Europe still has pre-hellenic(pelasgian) annd pre-celtic place & river names.And Indo-Europeans are known to have invaded/migrated to these places much before they came to Indus-Saraswati valley.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 09:21
A very famous & ancient temple of Maha Lakshmi"the Hindu Goddess of Wealth & fertility" is located at Kolhapur in Maharashtra
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 09:31
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I dont think Indus-Saraswati civilization was a Dravidian Civilization.Dravidian the term itself originated from the word "Tamila".Tamil also is a very old language.Dravidian civilization was a seperate civilization which flourished and grew in the southern part of India.They were believed to have interactions with Indus-Saraswati people.In the oldest Tamil literature(Sangam literature dates back to 1100BC) there is no mention of a Southward migration but it speaks of a Northward migration due to rise in sealevels.And the basic religio-philosophical thoughts of Dravidian civilization is also very similar to Indus-Saraswati people. "Arriyan" was a word that was used in Sangam tamil to indicate a noble man."Arivu" in Tamil means wisdom.Arivu in malayalam also means wisdom.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 09:34
| Rigvedic Fire rituals like Agnicayana & Agnistoma are still being performed in many parts of India with fire alltars similar to that found in Kalibangan & Lothal sites |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 10:13
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Thaithireeya Upanishad starts
with the verse “ Sam no mitra: sam
varuna: sam no bhavathyaryama sam na indro brihaspathi: sam no vishnururukrama namo brahmane..namasthe vayo
tvameva prathyaksham brahmaasi tvaameva prathyaksha brahma
vadhishyami, hrutham vadhishyami,satyam vadhishyami.tanmavavathu tad
vaktaramavathu , avathu maam avathu vaktharam.
Om sahanavavathu , sahanou
bhunakthu, Sahaveeryam karvavahai, tejasvinavatheethamasthu,Mavidvishavahai The above verse have almost all Indo-European dieties mentioned. There are other dieties also praised in other vedic and upanishadic works like Agni,rudra,Dyaus,Purusa(primordial man),prithvi(janitri),Visvedevas,Parjanya,Savitr(surya or sun),Usas(who spreads daylight"ahana"),Pusan,Apas(watergod),Bhaga,Rbhus,Tvastr(the divine artificer or creator god),Marut,Yama(son of Vivaswt),Yami,Manu etc |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 10:22
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All the Ancient Indo-Europena dieties are mentioned in Vedic literture But not all are mentioned in any other manuscripts of other Indo-European civilizations.Only some are mentioned in .And other dieties like Frigga or freyga has cognates in Sanskrit(priya) with same or similar meaning. If sanskrit and Vedic culture is an offshoot of an existing civilization which was migrating then why only the Indo-Aryans who migrated to/invaded the Indus Saraswati retained all the dietieds and no others..? If the Indo-aryans were just an offshoot from an established parent population then they would have only remembered and retained some of the dieties and not all. And the parent population or the oldest stock would have retained all the diety names.But in reality only sanskrit has retained all the diety names. |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 10:30
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Another difficulty here is believing that some people who numbered thousands migrated to/invaded Indus-Saraswati valley and then imposed their language and culture to 20 million people who is spread in 2 million kilometres and was well established as a civilization, and then they wrote more tha 17500 manuscripts which praises new dieties and new rituals within 600 years. Where as the History of the sub-continent says a different story.Even 700 years of Islamic rule and after that 150 years of british rule was not able to bring about much of a change to the religio-philisophic thoughts,language and culture of the sub continent.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 10:37
| Modern Indians has inheritted many things from ancient Indus-Saraswati people.The artifacts and toys of Moenjodaro,Harappa,Lothal etc are similar to many tools and equipments used by present day Indians and I think pakistanis too |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 10:41
 A bullock cart toy from Indus valley  A bullock cart from present day India.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 10:50
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The Indus seal carrying the figure of a boat  |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 10:51
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A House boat in present day India 
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 10:54
| Lothal the Archaeological site at Sabarmati delta Gujarat which is dating back to 2400BC was a dock where the Harappans built boats and ships . 700-1000years before the so called migration/invasion took place the harappans knew to build ships & boats |
Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 12:08
| i believe the aryan invasion theory is very real for pakistan, these floods in pakistan are giving us a chance to look at how the interior/village populations look in pakistan even in punjab and sindh, you may notice that these people look very mixed, many of them have dark skin but blondish hair and indo aryan facial features, they look very different from lets say people from Bengal or south india who's facial features are pretty different. |
Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 16:22
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In the link below are images of Celtic Gods: http://www.spelcastor.org/gods.htm Perhaps they are also a form Shiva based on their common appearance???  Here are some Shamanic spiritual depictions: http://www.sequanicalendar.com/art.html Shamanism is a spirituality originated in North Eurasia. "hindu connection" anyone? ------------- http://pakhub.info">
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2010 at 05:13
I have uploaded the photographs of a number of South Indians(Dravidians) in another tread "difference between Indians & Pakistanis" by chander gupta. What do they look like to you..? Aryan or Dravidian..?
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2010 at 05:29
The Celtic seal in the site was dated back to 150CE and the Pashupati seal was dating back to 3000BC(1300-1500 years before the so called invasion). AIT/AMT claims Indo-Aryans came to Indus-Saraswati valley from 1700BC-1500BC. Celts are known to have migrated to europe also during the same period. Now the question is whether Pashupati was contributed to Indus-Saraswati people by Aryans or vice versa.Of which the answer is clear. And i dont deny,even shamanism and animism may have Hindu connections. |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2010 at 07:41
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Here are some famous bengalis Hussein Suhrawardy Former Prime minister of Pakistan  Amartya sen a Nobel prize winner 
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2010 at 07:48
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Anoushka Ravishankar a musician(daughter of Ravishankar)  Ravishankar the famous Musician Subhash Chandra Bose 
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2010 at 07:49
| What do these people look like aryans or dravidians..? |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2010 at 10:40
I disagree,
Shamanism is the earliest religous expression of man and developed in all hunter / gatherer societies. Shamanism developed first in Africa and then was spread by people migrating to other parts of the world. Shamanism has remained longer in indigenous Siberians because as herders, they are closer to hunter gatherers than people with large scale agriculture.
As for Shamanism and Hinduism, Shamanism is clearly the older religion. Hindusim, however, has preserved far more of shamanism than Islam or Christianity.
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Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2010 at 19:58
Just about any form of animal/nature worship weather native american or south american or Shamanic must have "hindu" roots.  even though "hinduism" is not a religion itself but a series of different cults/religions. It was the Brits who termed them as "one" ------------- http://pakhub.info">
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Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2010 at 20:01
I don't think there is such thing as "oldest religion" since human beings had various tribal practices and religions going back thousands of years. It can be said that Shamanism is one of the oldest surviving spiritualities ------------- http://pakhub.info">
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Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2010 at 23:02
They look like they are racially caucasoids to me. If Aryan is a large ethnicity like slavic, I would say that the people are racially caucasoid and ethnically Aryan. To my knowledge, with the exception of some asiatic tribal peoples and perhaps a few australoids, Bengalis are caucasoids and resemble most Indians and most Pakistanis.
As a side note, are Dravidians caucasoids?
I agree. Shamanism as a concept, however, is by far the oldest spirituality. The other religous concepts did not develop untill agriculture / domestication of animals.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2010 at 00:47
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Dear Cryptic, I dont know much about Shamanism.But Hinduism as Pakistani shield told is not a religion,but I dont think it is a group of cult/religions.The roots of every hindu sects is in Sanathana Dharma.And all sects have a common consensus on beliefs,gods(all gods and demigods are believed to be manifestations of one supreme power"Brahman") & Texts. I think you need to know more deeply about Hinduism.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2010 at 00:50
| And as Pakistani shield told I am not trying to find a hindu root for everything.I am just posting what I have found out and felt.If pakistani shield felt that I am finding a hindu root for everything then it is just his understanding and not my intention/propoganda. |
Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2010 at 03:07
Not really. Except for a large group of people living in Northwest India, the majority look nothing like Pakistanis aside from common Caucasian skull. Also the same for Bengalis. only a minority of them look Pakistani. I don't mean just by color, but also face structure. It's a bit like comparing Swedes and Italians. Their face structures are very distinct despite both being Caucasoid.
yes they are, though many or most show a small but significant Australoid admixture.
There's no proof of that. What if there were practices in Africa and the Middle East found to be preceding Shamanism but are now dead. Shamanism is best described as the oldest living spiritual practice, but to say which religion/cult/spirituality is the "oldest" is very tough to say. ------------- http://pakhub.info">
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2010 at 05:50
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As I told earlier Hinduism
cannot be called a religion it is rather a culture with roots in Vedic Dharma
or Sanathana Dharma.Vedas originated in the banks of saraswati (And it cannot
be defined by one or two posts here.) Due to various
reasons(natural calamities,Overpopultion,drying up of rivers etc) the saraswati
people migrated to other parts of the country and settled on the banks of other
rivers along with them they took their beliefs and religions also.All these new
societies had their structure common the division of society on the basis of
Varnas. Brahmins : the priestly
class who carried out the religious riuals and monitored customs and practices. Kshatriyas : The warrior
class who specialized in weapons and protected their settlements from
outsiders/invadrers Vaisyas(baniyas/panis) :
The trader class who used to trade with other settlements or cities and earned
revenue. Shudras : the worker class
who carried out all the works including farming. Vedas ,Upanishads &
most Puranas are called “Sruthi” which
means direct revelation through mouth and other texts ie some puranas,Epics and
others are called “Smrithi” which means recollection or memory. All the religious rituals
and customs are based on Vedas. There are 4 vedas. Rik,Yajur,Sama &
Atharva. Most of the Brahmins in
India follows the first two Vedas.Some learn the third veda also. Nambudiri Brahmins of
Kerala are Sroutha Brahmins who learns all Vedas and perform fire rituals like
agni cayana & agnistoma.All other Brahmins are Smarta Brahmins Dixit Brahmins of
Karnataka and Maharashtra are Yajurvedi Brahmins they learn only
Yajurveda.Yajurveda has two sects 1) Krishna Yajurveda & Shukla Yajurveda
of which they are Krishna Yajurvedins. Kulkarni Brahmins of
Maharashtra are Shukla Yajurvedins.. Iyer Brahmins of Tamil
Nadu are Rigvedi Brahmins. Vajpayee Brahmins of North
India(UP) are those who perform the ritual of Vajapeya during Yajnas. Similarly all Brahmins of
India are associated to one or other veda and they are the priestly class of
their particular locality. There are basically 4
classes of Kshatriyas. 1) Surya Vanshi 2) Chandra Vanshi 3) Agni Vanshi 4)
Naga Vanshi Maharana
Pratap Singh of Mewar was a Shisodaya Rajput who belonged to Surya
Vansh.Rathore Kurmi,Bedi & many others comes under Surya Vansh The
Rajputs Jadejas, Tomars , Chandels
& many others comes under Chandra Vansha The Pruthvi Raj Chauhan the last Hindu king
of Delhi belonged to Agni Vansh The Rajputs Chauhan,Pawar ,Solanki,Vaghela and
many others comes under AgniVansh. Nairs,Nambiars,Samantha
Kshatriyas,Kodavas and others comes
under Naga Vansh. Baniyas
or Vaishyas are the trader class of India. And
all other farming and working population comes under Shudra class. All
thses groups have different surnames based on the place they belong to,the
language they speak and the nature of their occupation. But their
religio-philosophical thoughts are based on Vedas only. Discrimination
based on castes was an evil practice which came into being due to the hunger
for power and it was never suggested anywhere in any spiritual books. In India from North to south & East to west we have several micro and macro societies which functioned in the above mentioned manner.All were having common roots but rituals & customs varied from place to place.But they were never part of different religions, was part of Sanathana Dharma only.And even villages all over india had their own governing bodies and their societies were divided according to the varnas.The village heads of north India were called Mukhiya,Sarpanj,Choudhary etc.In TamilNadu they were called as "Nattamai".In kerala they were called Madambi. They were the rulers of the area they(village head) had a small army or a group of people who practiced martial arts to protect their village from outsiders.Village had its farming class & Trader class. |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2010 at 09:07
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There are lots of temples
with different deities scattered all over India ,Nepal and other places where
there are considerable number of Hindus. These temples are
constructed s per Tantra tradition based on agamas which originated from
Vedas.The Tantrik practitioner who instills energy to the Vigraha(idol) is
called “Thantri” There are 4 different
sects in this Shaiva(that related to Shiva),Vaishnava (that related to
Vishnu),Shaaktha (that related to Shakti or female diety),Ganapathya (that
related to Ganapathy) A Kshetra or temple is the
Oorja Kendra or Energy source of the Village surrounding it. The dieties
to be installed are decided based on the nature of the place where the temple is to be installed. The idols are basically
constructed from Shila(stone/granite).The shila used for idol construction are
classified into three 1) Sthree shila(female) 2) Purush Shila (male) & 3)
Napumsak shila(eunuch) based on the Vibrational & sound
characteristics of the stone being used.This is accomplished by studying the
sound produced by the stone when knocked with mallets. If the diety is a male
diety the the idol(or linga) is made of Purush shila the receptacle(or yoni) in
which the idol is fixed is made of sthree shila and the foundation on which the
idol & base will be installed will be of Napumsak shila. If the diety is female
then idol will be made of sthree shila,base purush shila and foundation
Napumsakshila. This assembly will be
installed in the Garbha gruha(sanctum) .Garbha Gruha will have 6 chakras
installed below it 1) Mooladhara chakra2) Swadhishtana chakra3) Manipooraka 4)
Anaahata 5) Vigyana chakra 6) Aagya chakra. These charkas are
interconnected in the ascending order and the Aagya Chakra is connected to the
vigraha.And a mix of nine chemicals(navapashana) in a sealed copper pot with a vertical
copper capillary tube touching the idol from inside is installed in the garbha
gruha beneath the idol. Dimensional parameters of the idols are decided based on the
tantra sect to which it belong to,moolamantra of the diety also is decided on
the basis of the sect.After installation is complete the “Prana Prathishta” is
carried out by the Thantri.During this process Thantroi instills Prana or
universal energy(neuralenergy) into the diety.The diety is so dimensioned and
installed that when moolamantra is recited ,it will vibrate in resonance and
radiates energy. In case of Shiva LingasRudra mantra is used as moolamantra.Rudra mantra goes like Eka chame , theesras chame , pancha chame ,Sapta chame ,Nava chamaye , ekadasa chama and so on. Rudra mantra is in arithmatic progression ie 1,3 ,5 ,7 ,9 like wise Kirlian photography was
used to take the photographs of energy radiations from temple idols and it was
observed that a properly dimensioned shivalinga was able to absorb &
radiate 23 X1030 gauss of magnetic energy. |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2010 at 09:41
Shamanism is not a religion either, but a religous concept associated with hunter gather societies some herders and those with limited agriculture. Individual shamanistic religions are varied. As a reflection of its hunter gatherer roots, shamanism assigns spiritual qualities to animals and land features.
I am confused. If Hindusim is a cultural manifestation, what about trans cultural Hinduism such as the pre Islamic Hinduism in Malaysia, Cambodia and Indonesia and modern Hinduism in Bali?
Since even related cultures can vary greatly (espcially before unifiers such as railroads, mass education, radio and television), your statement seems to support Pakistani Shield's belief that Hinduism is a group of seperate, yet closely related religions like the native american religions.
Hinduism has probably incorperated some cultural traits as religous norms like Islam has done with Arab culture. Likewise, though Hinduism is not nearly as monolithic as the Abrahamic religions (Islam, Christianity, Judaism), I think it is a unified religion.
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Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2010 at 10:51
First of all, your picking and chossing pics, i am talking about the general population in bengal, south indian populations, Their facial features are mostly Dravdian, but ofcourse there is probably some small indo-aryan influence aswell. None of these guys can ever fit in Europe or even Iran/Afghanistan for that matter
most people in the subcontinent speically in India are dravidians, the more west and north you go in the subcontinent for example towards pakistan or north to Kashmir, the indo aryan features become more apparant.
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Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2010 at 22:19
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many Iranians and Afghans could actually pass for dravids due to elamite traces there. apart from people in the south and east, most Pakistanis cannot pass off as Indians or other south asians. But then remember there was a huge exchange of populations in 1947. Even many indian tamils are said to be amongst the many Muslim immigrants that migrated to Pakistan ------------- http://pakhub.info">
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 03:14
The photos that I have posted in the other tread of some famous malayalis and Tamils, it may resemble europeans but they are all dravidians.Whether i choose or not they are all dravidians. For eg:- Vijay Nambiar , Shivshankar Menon,K.G.Balakrishnan,Mammootty,Shashi Tharoor all are Dravidians and belong to the southernmost state of India ie Kerala.The photos are given below      |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 03:18
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@balochi you said dravidian facial features ... can you be more specific.. what are the features of dravidians..? |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 03:32
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Here are the photos of some famous Tamils Dr.A.P.J.Abdul Kalam(former President of India)  C.M.Annadurai one of the founders of the Dravidian Party DMK(Dravida Munnetta Kazhakam)  Academy Award winning Music Director A.R.Rahman  Famous mathematician Srinivasa Ramanujam  Late Leader of Tamil militants of Srilanka velupillai Prabhakaran  |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 03:37
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S.Sivaraman a former communist Politician of Kerala  A.K.Balan (Power Minister of Kerala)  Paloli Muhammed Kutty Minister for Local Administration Kerala  They are all dravidians and some have dark skin.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 03:47
Hinduism of India and all its different sects are branched out from a common root ie Vedic religion and all different sects are based on a particular branch of a veda(mainly Rik, Yajur & Sama).This is what I tried to explain.It is not different cults or religions unified under single umbrella.I meant to say that all Hindus in India has common roots.They all believe in Atma(soul) & Param Artma(supreme soul/Brahman) and in Karma.They also believe that all other Gods/demigods are different manifestations of Brahman. And Balinese and others follow Agama Hindu Dharma.Only two Vedas(Rik & Yajur) reached there. As I told I will not be able to explain the whole concept through posts. If you want to know more about hinduism you may need to study yourself personally.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 05:04
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The Vedic religion had
many rituals like Agnicayana,Agnistoma,Agni hothra,Jyotishtoma,Purusha
Sookta and various others. These rituals used to last
for several days out of which Agnicayana was the longest lasting for 12 days. These rituals included
recitations of several Vedas,Upanishads and performances of severals Homams and
yagnas. Many of these activities are specifically assigned to a particular
clans of Brahmins.So these clans give more stress to the area of their
importance and they classified themselves as rik
vedis,Yajurvedis,Dwivedis,Trivedis ,Tripathi,Vajapeyis etc. when they migrated
to difefferent areas they took their traditions also with them. But irrespective of their
area of specialisationsall Brahmin cvlans are able to performs small Homams and
rituals and yajnas eg: Ganapathy Homa,Bhagavat Seva etc and several other
rituals like Poojas & Thantras for various temple dieties. The “Deva Bhasha”(divine
language) of all Hindus are Sanskrit.There are more than 80 major languages in
India.Irrespective of colocial language the language used for religious
performances and studies is Sanskrit through out India. The common thing among the priests all over
India is that they recite and learn religious rituals and performances in
Sanskrit.Eve the Nambudiris of Kerala & Iyers of Tamilnadu recites &
performs & Chants during religious
performances in Sanskrit. |
Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 15:00
| ^ the pics you just posted of tamils above are dravdians, do you honestly think these guys can fit in Europe or or even Iran/Afghanistan, most of them would probably not even fit in pakistan. Dravdians are similar to austrolid in my opinion, ofcourse dravdians being in India they probably mixed with indo-aryans aswell, however they still maintain a lot austrolid features. |
Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 15:20
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Wow, I can't pretend to have the knowledge of Indian culture, and here I include Pakistan as having its basis in Indian culture, but two thoughts occur. First, early India's culture was highly syncretic and adopted many cultural practices from earlier eras. Second, it traveled well, with peoples as far away as today's Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, and Hainan island adopting Indian culture. Contrast this cultural exportability with the Goan example, which left India with a hybrid people who, while spending several centuries as Portuguese, emerged in 1961 with their Indian cultural core intact, which facilitated their inclusion into India. with this syncretism and exportability in mind, it would make sense that Sanskrit traveled as well and as far as it did, even cutting accross genetic boundaries. Good luck in sorting out that history. By its very complexity, it would appear to require that all approaching the subject should do so with an open mind, leaving presumptions of modern 'nationality' behind. ------------- Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì |
Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 16:13
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^ when you say sanskrit travelled, what do you mean? also the question is about origins of sanskrit and the people who spoke it. Indian nationalistics are very very very bias about any thing that happend in south asia, infact as pakistanis we should be more bias because technically all of this history took place in modern pakistan on our lands, rather then modern state of india, however we are open minded about it. We listen to what western historian, aswell as other historians have to say. From what most pakistanis have read, we tend to agree with the open minded western historians, rather then some nationalistic historian sitting in India.
I personally think Pakistani historians and archaeologists should lead the way in discussing these issues, rather then some guy sitting in Mumbai or Calcutta. We are much more in inheritors of any history then took on pakistani land, rather then some guy sitting in Calcutta or Tamil nadu
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Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 18:10
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How would Pakistani history have it's basis in India when Pakistan is the home of the Indus Vedic and other civilizations? Imagine if Pakistan had today gone by the name India or Industan as Alice Albinia suggested. People would have a completely different view. It's sad how names influence peoples thinking ------------- http://pakhub.info">
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Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 00:09
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Shield: in re your: "How would Pakistani history have it's basis in India when Pakistan is the home of the Indus Vedic and other civilizations?" Pakistan is a modern state. Even taking your word that the present state of Pakistan is the home of those civilizations, by its very nature as a Muslim state, it is a later construct. India is not a single people, nor is it's history confined to a single modern state. And it is certainly not a single religion. More than anything else, India is a culture shared by several South Asian peoples and states, which once spread as far afield as the Cham states (Indrapura, Amaravati, Vijaya, Kauthara, Panduranga) of present day Vietnam. I would say that from a western perspective, it is termed "Indian" and my use of Pakistan was merely meant to underscore the common cultural and historical roots of both modern India and Pakistan. However, even the Vietnamese refer to Indians from anywhere (Sri Lanka, Singapore, India, or Pakistan) as 'An Do" people, so it is not just a western usage. If it you prefer, we could agree that Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh have their roots in the Indian subcontinent. My point was that at one time, it had spread beyond the subcontinent. ------------- Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì |
Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 00:57
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No I do not agree. Does the origin of Hitler and the Nazi movement have roots in western Europe? Or strictly Germany? Does the rise of the Mongol empire and Genghis Khan have it's roots in all of East Asia or Mongolia specific? This is just another attempt to steal history by calling it "shared." Pakistan is a landmass and direct inheritor of the Indus Civilizations as much as modern Italy is direct inheritor of ancient Roman civilization as opposed to all of Southern Europe whom do not question Italy's inheritance as they clearly know who it belongs to. besides if Pakistan were to change it's name tomorrow would all it's history cease to exist simply due to it's name change? I know we've been through this many times, but false claims over other histories is a common problem faced by many countries. ------------- http://pakhub.info">
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Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 01:01
How could anyone question where the indus river is or where the main cities of the IVC are found? Don't take my word for it. Look it up. ------------- http://pakhub.info">
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 03:10
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Dear balochi
& pakistani shield who is trying to be nationalistic here….? You are
claiming the Ownership of a
civilization & culture which you
have nothing to link with or yyou know nothing about. The vedic religion is
still; existing and German Indologists like Frits Staal are visiting differet
parts of India to see the age old vedic rituals being performed and it is under
his initiative the “Agnicayana” (I have posted atopic earlier) was performed. Panini didn’t
invent Sanskrit.He codified it and gave a grammatical structure.And all the
literatures related to Vedic had already been composed and even written down
much much before Panini. The total area covered by Pakistan today is .7 million
square kilometers where as the Arya varta which was the cradle of the
civilization was more than 2.5 million square kilometers and all the vedic
literature originated on the banks of Saraswati of course it contains land that
is in present day Pakistan. .Arya varta
spanned almost all over North India.Eastern end being Bihar & western end
being Indus.In North Iit included parts of modern day Tibet & Afganistan.It
included present day
Haryana,Kashmir,Punjab,Himachalpradesh,Nepal,Uttarpradesh,Parts of
Bihar,Madhya Pradesh,Maharashtra,Parts of Karnataka,Rajastan,Gujarat &
PakistanI have posted a map of Arya varta in an earlier tread. So technically
it was not confined only to the lands which is called as Present day Pakistan. Bhrigus,Viswamitras,Angirasses,Vasishtas,Grthasamadhas,Athris,Sounakas,kanva,Goutamas,Mareechas
are the priestly clans who composed the Vedas.And all these rishi families were
priests of Puru especially the Bharatha clan.They belonged to different parts
of India.And Vedas are known to have
been composed at places which are
presently called Haryana & Himachal pradesh. Krishna
Dwaipayana or veda vyasa meaning the summariser of Veda was known to belong to
Uttar Pradesh of Modern India.Parashara who was the father of Veda vyasa
belonged to Karnataka ie South India. Others vedic Rishis Vaisampayana,Yajnavalkya
etc were not from what is presently Pakistan. The list of
Mathematicians ,Astronomers and Grammarians of
Ancient India is given below in Chronological order.Among them Arya
Bhata,Bhaskara1 & Bhaskara2 are kown to Hail from Kerala. Apasthamba
of 1100BC , Baudhayana
800BC , Manava
750BC , Panini
of 400BC,(He belonged to what is presently Pakistan) Badra
Bahu 300BC, Pingala
who wrote Chandas Sutra in 200BC, Umaswati
150BC a Jaina Scholar who wrote Tattwarthadhigama-Sutra
Bhashya,
Jaina Works ie sankhyana & other works including permutation &
combinations which resulted in the formation Meru Prasthara or todays Pascal
triangle dated from 300BC –400AD , Bakhisli
Manuscripts placed not later than 450BC Classical
period starting with Aryabhata
I (476- 550AD) who was influenced by ‘Surya Siddhanta’ of unknown author
written 400AD.Aryabhata’s famous wok is Aryabhatiya. Varaha
Mihira(505-587AD) Brahmagupta(598-668AD)
, Bhaskara
I (600-680AD) , Lalla
(720-790 AD) , Govinda
Swami(800-860AD) , Sankara
Narayana(840-900AD) , Mahavira(approx.850AD)
, Prthudakasvami(830-890AD)
, Sridhara
(870-930AD) , AryabhataII
(920-1000AD) , Vijayanandi
(940-1010AD) , Sripathi
(1010-1066AD) , Bhaskara
II (1114AD-1185AD) Citing
one Panini You are claiming the ownership of a civilization which spanned in 5
different countries(namelyAfganistan,Pakistan,India,Nepal & Tibet) Who
is Biased here and who is not..? |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 03:16
India has diffferent races of people living in it.And Aryan and Dravidian as per our understanding are not races. You seem to use the word "Draviidian" in racial sense.We have fair skinned & dark skinned people all over India but we dont classify them as Aryans & Dravidians. Dravidian is a language family and different races of people belonging to South India speaks Dravidian languages. What are you leading into..? A racial superiority debate..?
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 03:27
Indus is not the only river that has Archaeological remains of cities.Nearly 414 Archaeological sites were spotted on the banks of Gaggar-Hakra river(Rigvedic Saraswati) which dried up in 1900Bc Lothal is a Harappan city of Gujarat in Sabarmati delta Lothal has the worlds firts dock dating back to 2500BC.Surkotaa,Rangpur,Kuntasi,rojdi,Prtbhas patan are all archaeological remains of towns and cities in present day gujarat.Kalibangan is a preharappan city on the banks of Gaggar Hakra,Dholavira,Kot Chiji,Balathal,Banawali,Farmana,Rakhigarhi etc are all on the banks of Saraswati.Apart from this several new archaeological sites are found out in Haryana and studies are in progress there. But the first cities to be excavated were on thebanks of Indus like Harappa & Moenjodaroso the importance.It doesnt indicate that the civilization belonged to Pakistan as you claim..
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 04:33
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The photos that I have posted in the other tread of some famous malayalis and Tamils, it may resemble europeans but they are all dravidians.Whether i choose or not they are all dravidians. For eg:- Vijay Nambiar , Shivshankar Menon,K.G.Balakrishnan,Mammootty,Shashi Tharoor all are Dravidians and belong to the southernmost state of India ie Kerala.The photos are given below What about these Dravidians..? they are all from kerala & speak malayalam
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 04:41
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Please find the link to the details of genetical studies conducted on Nairs of kerala South India(Surnames Nambiar ,Menon,Pillai,Kurup,Unnithan etc belong to nair community).I too am a nair. The results indicate that they are indegenous to India. The photos attached above ie that of Vijay nambiar,Shivshankar Menon,Shashii Tharoor are all Nairs http://www.familytreedna.com/public/nair/default.aspx - http://www.familytreedna.com/
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 07:02
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Genetic studies about M-17 origin http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC379225/?tool=pubmed - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC379225/?tool=pubmed
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 07:14
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Genetical studies by dr.peter.A.Underhill http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19888303 - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19888303
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 07:18
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Study by Kivislid,Underhill et al A counter-clockwise northern route of the Y-chromosome haplogroup N from Southeast Asia towards Europe. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17149388 - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17149388
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 07:23
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16400607 - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16400607 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16400607 - Am J Hum Genet. 2006 Feb;78(2):202-21. Epub 2005 Dec 16. Polarity and temporality of high-resolution y-chromosome distributions in India identify both indigenous and exogenous expansions and reveal minor genetic influence of Central Asian pastoralists.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Sengupta%20S%5BAuthor%5D - Sengupta S , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Zhivotovsky%20LA%5BAuthor%5D - Zhivotovsky LA , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=King%20R%5BAuthor%5D - King R , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Mehdi%20SQ%5BAuthor%5D - Mehdi SQ , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Edmonds%20CA%5BAuthor%5D - Edmonds CA , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Chow%20CE%5BAuthor%5D - Chow CE , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Lin%20AA%5BAuthor%5D - Lin AA , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Mitra%20M%5BAuthor%5D - Mitra M , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Sil%20SK%5BAuthor%5D - Sil SK , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Ramesh%20A%5BAuthor%5D - Ramesh A , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Usha%20Rani%20MV%5BAuthor%5D - Usha Rani MV , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Thakur%20CM%5BAuthor%5D - Thakur CM , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Cavalli-Sforza%20LL%5BAuthor%5D - Cavalli-Sforza LL , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Majumder%20PP%5BAuthor%5D - Majumder PP , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Underhill%20PA%5BAuthor%5D - Underhill PA . Human Genetics Unit, Indian Statistical Institute, Kolkata, India. AbstractAlthough considerable cultural impact on social hierarchy and language in South Asia is attributable to the arrival of nomadic Central Asian pastoralists, genetic data (mitochondrial and Y chromosomal) have yielded dramatically conflicting inferences on the genetic origins of tribes and castes of South Asia. We sought to resolve this conflict, using high-resolution data on 69 informative Y-chromosome binary markers and 10 microsatellite markers from a large set of geographically, socially, and linguistically representative ethnic groups of South Asia. We found that the influence of Central Asia on the pre-existing gene pool was minor. The ages of accumulated microsatellite variation in the majority of Indian haplogroups exceed 10,000-15,000 years, which attests to the antiquity of regional differentiation. Therefore, our data do not support models that invoke a pronounced recent genetic input from Central Asia to explain the observed genetic variation in South Asia. R1a1 and R2 haplogroups indicate demographic complexity that is inconsistent with a recent single history. Associated microsatellite analyses of the high-frequency R1a1 haplogroup chromosomes indicate independent recent histories of the Indus Valley and the peninsular Indian region. Our data are also more consistent with a peninsular origin of Dravidian speakers than a source with proximity to the Indus and with significant genetic input resulting from demic diffusion associated with agriculture. Our results underscore the importance of marker ascertainment for distinguishing phylogenetic terminal branches from basal nodes when attributing ancestral composition and temporality to either indigenous or exogenous sources. Our reappraisal indicates that pre-Holocene and Holocene-era--not Indo-European--expansions have shaped the distinctive South Asian Y-chromosome landscape. |
Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 12:46
To this day i have never even seen any pics of the "so called" indus valley civilization sites on Gaggar-Hakra river, from what i have heard from reliable sources that much of these sites are much after the indus valley period. Most of the great cities of indus are located in pakistan, if you go to interior sindh and punjab, people still use the same tools and still make the bricks the way indus valley people use, these interior people of punjab and sindh are the main desendants of those people, not some guy living in bengal or Tamil Nadu
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 23:18
Your ignorance may be a blessing for you. The names of the archaeological sites are mentioned in my posts itself.You can google and find out the details.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2010 at 00:42
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Here are some links for other Archaeological sites of Indus valley http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalibangan - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalibangan http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/sep102008/588.pdf - http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/sep102008/588.pdf http://asi.nic.in/asi_exca_imp_punjab.asp - http://asi.nic.in/asi_exca_imp_punjab.asp http://asi.nic.in/asi_exca_imp_gujarat.asp - http://asi.nic.in/asi_exca_imp_gujarat.asp http://www.harappa.com/lothal/ - http://www.harappa.com/lothal/ http://www.harappa.com/har/ancient-indus-sites.html - http://www.harappa.com/har/ancient-indus-sites.html http://asi.nic.in/asi_exca_imp_haryana.asp - http://asi.nic.in/asi_exca_imp_haryana.asp http://www.harappa.com/goladhoro/Excavations-at-Shikarpur-2007.pdf - http://www.harappa.com/goladhoro/Excavations-at-Shikarpur-2007.pdf |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2010 at 00:53
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A link to Archaeological sites of Gujarat India http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/jul10/articles29.htm - http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/jul10/articles29.htm
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2010 at 00:56
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About Rakhigarhi Haryana India http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakhigarhi - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakhigarhi http://www.haryana-online.com/rakhigarhi.htm - http://www.haryana-online.com/rakhigarhi.htm
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2010 at 00:59
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Rakhigarhi is the largest harappan site ever found http://varnam.org/blog/2007/02/rakhigarhi_harappan_site_in_ha/ - http://varnam.org/blog/2007/02/rakhigarhi_harappan_site_in_ha/
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Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2010 at 02:02
| ^ lol buddy i asked for pictures, not names or descriptions of the so called indus valley sites and articles written by indians, the only main indus city i know in India is "lothal" in Gujarat, but the so called sites on Gaggar-Hakra river are nothing but mud bounds or some stuff in the ground, i have never seen any pics coming out of this area that are significants and can truly tell they belong to indus, thats why non of the international scholars use the term "Gaggar-Hakra" when describing the indus valley, only hindu nationalists do. |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2010 at 04:05
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If you are interested in proofs of the sites existing then what I have posted is sufficient. If you bother to visit the links you will get the pics.But I dont think you will ever get convinced because you dont want to ,but it will be of use for others who visit the site.I have earlier seen you calling Americans,Greek & Dutch nationals as Indian Nationalists.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2010 at 04:23
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About Rakhigarhi  About Dholavira http://asi.nic.in/asi_exca_2007_dholavira.asp - http://asi.nic.in/asi_exca_2007_dholavira.asp http://blog.shunya.net/shunyas_blog/2008/08/dholavira-a-har.html - http://blog.shunya.net/shunyas_blog/2008/08/dholavira-a-har.html  |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2010 at 04:31
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Dholavira    |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2010 at 04:36
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About the conceptual lay outs and structure of Various Indus-Saraswati sites http://www.globalheritagefund.org/where/uk_indus.html - http://www.globalheritagefund.org/where/uk_indus.html
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2010 at 04:46
 http://www.answerdom.com/photos/Rakhigarhi - http://www.answerdom.com/photos/Rakhigarhi
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2010 at 05:30
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About Kalibangan http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/aryan-harappan-myth.html - http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/aryan-harappan-myth.html http://www.indianetzone.com/1/cities_indus_valley.htm - http://www.indianetzone.com/1/cities_indus_valley.htm Kalibangan layout is linked http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kalibangan.jpg - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kalibangan.jpg Kalibangan Sacrificial Fire Altar  Kalibangan   Kalibangan Fire Altars  Kalibangan Ploughed field  Kalibangan Street 
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Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2010 at 20:05
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^ two of these cities do not lie on the Ghaggar- kakra river, they lie in Rajahistan and Gujarat almost on the pakistani border.
only the first one does(Rakhigarhi) might lie on Ghaggar- kakra river, but it is hardly an impressive city, there is no way to authenticate that even if this belong to the Indus-valley civilization, just go read any non indian articles on it
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 09-Sep-2010 at 00:06
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Dear balochi, I dont know what you think about yourself,but you really doesnt look like a competant authority to give verdicts on the authenticity of what Archaeological Survey of India an Internationally accepted body specialised in Archaeology says.. And none of the above sites and the artifacts recovered needs your attestation. the language and behavior of your posts is very well speaking about your intentions. You are interested in claiming the ownership of a civilization which spanned in more than 5 countries only to yourself ie pakistan ,and thats mean. |
Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 09-Sep-2010 at 10:09
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no i dont reclaim ownership, however modern state of india has no right on it, indians act as if it belongs to them. The egyptian civilization, roman civilization or greek civilization extented in many many lands aswell, but today only italy, greece and egypt claim those cvilizations, because these lands were the source of these civilizations. i dont understand why pakistan can't claim the indus civilization like these countries do, the source and 80% of the civilization lied within pakistani territory not india of today |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 09-Sep-2010 at 10:25
Egyptian ,Rome & Greek civilization has left nothing of it other than ruins,ie the culture and the religion is long lost.But Indus valley culture & religion is still existing in India and Pakistan doesnt have any of it.
And Regarding the ruins You are exagerrating ,There are as many sites in India as there are in Pakistan whether you accept it or not and there are ruins in other countries too.
You seem to be the only person claiming the ownership for the civilization.
I never said it belonged to India and have never seen anybody claiming so.In your attempt to paint pakistanis superior you are coming to your own conclusions.
Even if you claim the way you are doing now,I dont think world will accept it.
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Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 09-Sep-2010 at 11:31
| ^ lol this the hinduvita attitude and you are one of them, there is no proof at all they were the same people as modern hindus. I am glad you exposed yourself. Know no one will take you seriously |
Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 09-Sep-2010 at 20:33
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Even the Sakas who were an Iranic people buried their dead. This "hindu" ritual of burning people never had a place in ancient Indo-European culture. The Greeks might have done it though, but they did it differently ------------- http://pakhub.info">
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