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Sanskrit and the people who spoke it?
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balochii View Drop Down
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Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sanskrit and the people who spoke it?
    Posted: 10-Jul-2010 at 18:53

I was reading that Sanskrit originated some where in northern pakistan of today, areas like Peshawar, Swat valley, hunza etc.... some where there

we all know that Sanskrit's most famous scholar was in Peshawar called Panini, this could be the reason why ancient Iranian language called "avestan" is very closely related to Sanskrit because Avestan orginated in next door "Afghanistan"
 
My question however is, who were the people who spoke these earliest languages like Sanskrit and Avestan? how did they look like? what was their culture like?
 
Many indian nationalistic people claim that they were just regular indians living way up in Northern pakistan mountains and were killed of by invaders.
 
I personally refuse to believe this theory, Indian nationalistic tend to take every thing for themselves, i have seen bengalis, tamils, etc.... claming pakistani lands and even afghanistan for themselves, they think they ruled this area. There is no fact in their claims.
 
But again, who were those people? did they just vanish or are they the modern pakistani people of today? just that they became muslims.
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2010 at 02:39
Originally posted by balochii

I was reading that Sanskrit originated some where in northern pakistan of today, areas like Peshawar, Swat valley, hunza etc.... some where there

we all know that Sanskrit's most famous scholar was in Peshawar called Panini, this could be the reason why ancient Iranian language called "avestan" is very closely related to Sanskrit because Avestan orginated in next door "Afghanistan"
 
My question however is, who were the people who spoke these earliest languages like Sanskrit and Avestan? how did they look like? what was their culture like?
 
Many indian nationalistic people claim that they were just regular indians living way up in Northern pakistan mountains and were killed of by invaders.
 
I personally refuse to believe this theory, Indian nationalistic tend to take every thing for themselves, i have seen bengalis, tamils, etc.... claming pakistani lands and even afghanistan for themselves, they think they ruled this area. There is no fact in their claims.
 
But again, who were those people? did they just vanish or are they the modern pakistani people of today? just that they became muslims.

Panini is the Sanskrit Grammarian who gave a proper grammatic structure to Vedic Sanskrit and modified it into classic one.Helived in 200BC and sanskrit is much older than Panini.
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2010 at 07:42
Sorry Panini was known to live in 500BC in Pushkalawati(peshawar of present day pakistan).I confused him with Patanjali who wrote "Mahabhasya"
Panini composed Ashtadhyayi an eight chapter grammar for sanskrit.He was not the inventor of Sanskrit.
Sanskrit acquired a proper grammatical structure after Panini.He is known as the founder of Classical sanskrit.
But majority of Sanskrit works had been composed even before Panini.
I meant the 4Vedas & all their shakhas(branches),6 Vedangas
Then Upanishads ,Brahmanams,Gruhya sutras ,Srouthasutras,Nirukthas,Prathisakhyams etc ie approcimately 13+ texts against each branches of vedas.
A total of 17500+ books or collection of manuscripts in pre-classical sanskrit ie pre-panini sanskrit.
Avesta and many works in Avesta were too pre-panini.
Till date even linguists are trying to find out the original homeland of Sanskrit and Avesta.
They have proposed many places like Central Asia,Germany,Greece ,Anatolia , Russian Steppe etc.This theory which has changed the Urheimat from time to time (and the theory itself has now changed) is called mainstream model which proposed these areas to be the place of origin of this civilization and languages.
But unfortunately the archaeological & genetical proofs only attests a migration of Achaeans or hellenistic people to greece , celts to Europe 
But it fails to do so in the case of supposed Indo aryans invasion/migrations to Indus valley.
There is no genetical/anthropological / archaeological  proof available to suggest any  invasion or migration of Indus valley as well as Saraswathi valley.
This fact is known to almost all linguists who are still clinging on to the Aryan Invasion theory.
So they have changed the name of the theory to Aryan Migration Theory.
And they proposed that there was a migration which left no genetical proof or which left no change in material culture or behavioral pattern and living style of the Indus-Saraswathi valley people..
The proposal was  for a trickle-in infiltration which never affected the genetical or material culture ie which left no physical trace,But(AIT proponants) they are at pains to explain how a "trickle" was able to radically alter India's  linguistic and cultural landscape,when much more massive invasions of historical periods failed to do so.
Now there is another proposal which is opposed by the main stream theorists which is the Indian Urheimat even though it is well attested in Archeological ,Genetical,Anthropological & Archeo-Astronomical terms.
All the Anthropologists and genetists like Toomas Kivislid,M.J.Bamshad,Cavalli Sforza,P.A.Underhill has ruled out the possibility of a large scale migration/invasion to Indus valley from 7000BC till 600BC and world renowned archaeologists like j.shaffer.B.B.lal etc had ruled out any invasion much earlier on the basis of Homogenity of material culture in Indus-Saraswathi  sites. Astronomical studies based on the planetaurium software had helped in finding out the correct dates & places of composition of many old sanskrit text books based on the planetary positions mentioned in it,based on which the place of composition of vedas is located somewhere near present day haryana of India.

Now which theory to follow is left to you.
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balochii View Drop Down
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Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2010 at 08:36
^ i will certianlly not follow your theory, thats for sure
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ranjithvnambiar View Drop Down
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2010 at 22:52
Dear friend there is no compulsion here for anything.I am interested only in a healthy debate.
You are a free human being and you have the right like anyone else to stand for what you believe in.....
Please dont take my posts personally..It is not against you or your beliefs
And its not my theory there are many Linguists ,Archaeologists and Genetists who are proponants of Indian Urheimat or Out of India Theory ,which I too believe in.Wink
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Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2010 at 13:25

The problem is I can't debate with a person who is ignorant of history and very biased of his own hindu civilization
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2010 at 22:09
Originally posted by balochii

The problem is I can't debate with a person who is ignorant of history and very biased of his own hindu civilization

It's up to you whether to debate or not.We are far away from the debate now and you are giving your opinions about me.
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Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 09:16
in my opnion the earliest of sanskrit people were exactly the same people that exist today in northern pakistan, they came through the aryan invasion from central asia. northern pakistans and even kashmiries to an extrent look very different from from eastern pakistanis and most of indians, their cultures are really different.
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2010 at 03:23
Aryan invasion of South East Asia is a myth which is still propogated by imperialists and racists.
Archaeologists,Geneticists,anthropologists and archaeo-astronomists had already proved this using scientific tools.

The real invasion of this land actually took place after 600BC first by Darius the great then by Greeks under Alexander the Great in 4th century BC and afterwards it was ruled Greek Satrapy.Maurya emperor Chandragupta is known to have marriage relations with Greeks.Sindh& parts of present day pakistan & North west India was under Greek rule for centuries.Afterwards several invaders took control of this area viz.Indo -greeks,scythians,Parthians this continued upto 500Ad and during this period Hepthtalites or the white huns conquered this area and destroyed Taxila.
These occurances are historically attested and it attests the genetical traits of people in this area too.
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2010 at 03:38
Another thing the latest hypothesis of Aryan invasion/migration is not favouring Central Asia.
After central asia they transfered the Urheimat(land of origin) to Germany then Greece , then Anatolia and finally they have come up with a hypothesis saying Indo-Aryans originated in the Russian Steppes and the migrated to various area including India.This hypothesis is called "Kurgan Hypothesis".
So this Central Asia claim is long obsolete say by 1970s.
And OIT(out of India theory) is against Kurgan Hypothesis.
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Posts: 326 		  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2010 at 10:27
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

Aryan invasion of South East Asia is a myth which is still propogated by imperialists and racists.
Archaeologists,Geneticists,anthropologists and archaeo-astronomists had already proved this using scientific tools.

The real invasion of this land actually took place after 600BC first by Darius the great then by Greeks under Alexander the Great in 4th century BC and afterwards it was ruled Greek Satrapy.Maurya emperor Chandragupta is known to have marriage relations with Greeks.Sindh& parts of present day pakistan & North west India was under Greek rule for centuries.Afterwards several invaders took control of this area viz.Indo -greeks,scythians,Parthians this continued upto 500Ad and during this period Hepthtalites or the white huns conquered this area and destroyed Taxila.
These occurances are historically attested and it attests the genetical traits of people in this area too.
 
WOW! Are you Commies? Because Jawaharlal Nehru, the father of modern Hindu nationalism and utopia about Indian originality of Aryan civilization, had a leftist ideas. 
I`m not sure about your next conclusion. Aryan invasion in India 1500 BC is out of any question, if we talking about world`s (and seriuos) historic science.
Why are you not proud of your original culture of Mohenjo-daro and Harappa, which was really amazing but destroyed from Aryans? They left mostly their language in North India, but borrowed almost all from local culture. Because this pre-Aryan people was a Dravidian and speak some kind of Dravidian language? Modern Indians also have over 50 % genes of this ancient population.
 


Edited by Kanas_Krumesis - 16-Jul-2010 at 10:27
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2010 at 23:10
Originally posted by Kanas_Krumesis

Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

Aryan invasion of South East Asia is a myth which is still propogated by imperialists and racists.
Archaeologists,Geneticists,anthropologists and archaeo-astronomists had already proved this using scientific tools.

The real invasion of this land actually took place after 600BC first by Darius the great then by Greeks under Alexander the Great in 4th century BC and afterwards it was ruled Greek Satrapy.Maurya emperor Chandragupta is known to have marriage relations with Greeks.Sindh& parts of present day pakistan & North west India was under Greek rule for centuries.Afterwards several invaders took control of this area viz.Indo -greeks,scythians,Parthians this continued upto 500Ad and during this period Hepthtalites or the white huns conquered this area and destroyed Taxila.
These occurances are historically attested and it attests the genetical traits of people in this area too.
 
WOW! Are you Commies? Because Jawaharlal Nehru, the father of modern Hindu nationalism and utopia about Indian originality of Aryan civilization, had a leftist ideas. 
I`m not sure about your next conclusion. Aryan invasion in India 1500 BC is out of any question, if we talking about world`s (and seriuos) historic science.
Why are you not proud of your original culture of Mohenjo-daro and Harappa, which was really amazing but destroyed from Aryans? They left mostly their language in North India, but borrowed almost all from local culture. Because this pre-Aryan people was a Dravidian and speak some kind of Dravidian language? Modern Indians also have over 50 % genes of this ancient population.
 
Dear friend the so called aryans never destroyed Mohenjodaro & Harappaand other cities.The latest archaeological discoveries includes approx. 600 of such sites.No proof for a sudden and abrupt end of civilization was found from any of these sites, which might have happened if there were an invasion.No change in material culture was found which would have resulted if there were a migration and a resultant mix of culture occurred.No proof for sudden destruction,fire or loot or arson was found in any of these ancient cities' remains, which would have happened in case of an invasion.
Due to this reason only the Invasionist school changed their theory into migration.
And when genitical proof and archaeological proof were against such large migration duuring a period from 7000Bc to 600BC they proposed a trickle-in infilteration on flimsy grounds and now the AIT/AMT/Aryan trickle-in proponents are at pains to explain the resultant change in Cultural/Linguistic/religious scenario of Indians.

If you are really interested in this topic kindly visit the site http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/en/indology_en.asp

go through the reports and give aserious thought on the subject
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2010 at 01:06
Dear Kanas_krumesis,
I am not a communist neither Iam a nationalist.But i love my country and I dont believe that to show love to my country I have to prove that everything originated here.
Infact communist historians like Romila Thapar,Sharma etc are supporting AIT/AMT.I am just presenting a view which I felt is true based on my reading and studies.
The site which I mentioned earlier is that of  Greek Indologist & linguist who taught Aryan Invasion theory almost throughoiut his career(till 1996).Afterwards he came to India and carried out his own research in the subject and afterwards. He found the AIT to be wrong and he started to oppose it.
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 01:57
Dear Kanas_krumesis,
 i hope this link will help you to have a better understanding about what modern geneticists thinks about  Aryan invasion.Infact they have ruled out its very possibility, but please go through
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Posts: 21 		  Quote Vajra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2010 at 13:13
Sanskrit speakers claim to be descend from banks of one of chief Regvedic river Saraswati. which is believed to be dried up now. 
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Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2010 at 13:28
^ where did you that info?
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Posts: 21 		  Quote Vajra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2010 at 13:48
It's written in Rigvedas they consider it their mother river like certain castes in India have a river as their goddess where they perform their sacred rituals. 


This is the only river that Vedic people have praised the claim to have came from these banks. 


Edited by Vajra - 22-Jul-2010 at 13:50
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2010 at 04:29
As Vajra told sanskrit didnt originate in pre-historic pakistan, instead it originated on the banks of Saraswati and Rigveda is the oldest sanskrit text in sanskrit and studies say that it was written some ahere near present day Haryana.
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Posts: 251 		  Quote PakistaniShield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2010 at 23:59
Originally posted by balochii

I was reading that Sanskrit originated some where in northern pakistan of today, areas like Peshawar, Swat valley, hunza etc.... some where there

Sanskrit evolved from proto-Indo-Aryan and came with the Aryan migration. From what I've read the earliest known Sanskrit texts were found in Turkmenistan, but evidence also points further back to the region of the northwestern Caspian shores. I do not believe Proto-Indo-Aryan was ever spoken in South Asia.   Sanskrit may have started towards eastern Europe around the Caucasus especially given it's close affinity with modern Slavic languages particularly Slovenian.

Even the Slavic word for two "dwa" is the same as in Sanskrit which it's descendant languages have evolved into "doe" 


we all know that Sanskrit's most famous scholar was in Peshawar called Panini, this could be the reason why ancient Iranian language called "avestan" is very closely related to Sanskrit because Avestan orginated in next door "Afghanistan"


I had theorized that due to their distinct vowal pronunciations, the Indo-Aryan and Iranic languages split because of separate migrations  between their speakers. This theory is actually widely shared by scholars. I read the consensus is that the Iranic speakers of Pakistan followed about six centuries after the Indo-Aryan (possibly then Sanskrit) speakers. 
 

My question however is, who were the people who spoke these earliest languages like Sanskrit and Avestan? how did they look like? what was their culture like?


You are asking about peoples who were an off-shoot of the Kurgan culture. There are many books written on Indo-European culture. you should look up these books. The best "answers" i have to your questions based on my research is the following:
-They were various tribes of pagans who had not a single religion but many closely related cults varying from tribe to tribe. The Kalash of Northern Pakistan are perhaps the last remaining culture of these ancient Indo-Iranic pagans.

-They looked like modern eastern Europeans, but after slowly migrating into Southern Asia and mixing with the darker skinned natives there came a hybrid race.  however if you go to more remote locations of Northern Pakistan, Tajikistan you can still find Nordic types.
 

Many indian nationalistic people claim that they were just regular indians living way up in Northern pakistan mountains and were killed of by invaders.


LOl you should see how many right-wing hindutva have hijacked wikipedia  articles on this subject and won't let anyone edit. Even Pinani whom you mentioned is officially an "Indian" poet and anything to the contrary will be deleted by them. They have many high positions including arbitrators and administrators.
 

I personally refuse to believe this theory, Indian nationalistic tend to take every thing for themselves, i have seen bengalis, tamils, etc.... claming pakistani lands and even afghanistan for themselves, they think they ruled this area. There is no fact in their claims.


Agreed.
 

But again, who were those people? did they just vanish or are they the modern pakistani people of today? just that they became muslims.


Most of Pakistanis are of the same Indo-Iranic stock mixed with native Asiatic peoples- including dravidians. The linguistics, genetics and traces of Indo-European culture all point to this. I doubt there is much question to this.

A  more interesting question would be who are the non-Indo-Iranic peoples of Pakistan such as the Hunza who speak a language unrelated to any other. No known language family in the world has been able to incorporate the Hunza language Burushaski.  I truly am convinced they are remainders of a Pre-IE civilization that existed in Pakistan before the Aryan invasion.

besides who is to say the region consisted of a single race or language family prior to the indo-Iranic invasions.


Edited by PakistaniShield - 31-Aug-2010 at 00:05
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 02:43
Please provide proofs for the so called "earliest Sanskrit documents of Turkmenistan".
Please understand that "Kurgan origin" is still a hypothesis which is still refuted by many.And even the best of the scholars among the AMT proponants dont support any invasion today they only claim a trickle in infilteration to the area which is not substantiated by any proof.
The results of genetical studies has also proved the other way around .The genetical studies has indicated the origin of R1a to be in India instead of Russian Steppe.(please visit
 and archaeology has proved the existance of domesticated horse in India(even in south India) much before the so called "Aryan Invasion".
Now the only question which needs to be answered here is prejudice which doesnt have any answer.
What you want to believe and what not to is your personal interest and no proof can help it.
Best way of ignoring the proofs are to paint them with nationilstic paint and crying foul against any body who is putting it forward.
I dont think there is any use in debating in such a topic. 
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