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"Beating" up on Israel?

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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "Beating" up on Israel?
    Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 21:42
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

As far as I know, quite a few Arabs who live in the actual territory of Israel have Israeli citizenship and vote for Israeli parlament.
Israel has been controlling the whole of Palestine for 40 years. All of that land is de facto (i.e. actual) Israeli land.  

When Turkey declares the South East are 'territories', and abolish the  rights of the Kurds, Kurds in rest of Turkey will retain their voting rights. According to you that will be OK, right? Because the Kurds in the 'actual land' of Turkey will still have their rights.

Indeed. Not to mention that Palestinians inside the "actual land" are hardly equal citizens, even if they can vote. They must carry special ethnic identification, not only on their personal identification, but on their license plates - a modern-day equivalent of a star or armband. They cannot serve in the military. They cannot marry, or even be married to, any Palestinian from the occupied territories! If they are, they will be deported to the occupied territories, unless they choose to live apart. That, in particular, is just plain inhuman. 

Kurds in the 'actual land' of Turkey actually have far more rights ... they do not have to carry special identification, their license plates are the same as anyone else, it is not illegal to serve in the military, and they can marry anybody they like.



Edited by edgewaters - 22-Jan-2009 at 21:44
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 21:48
Well done, Turkey! Wink 
The point still stands, part of Arab population (quite large, correct me if I am wrong) have a right to vote.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 22:10
Originally posted by Anton

Well done, Turkey! Wink
The point still stands, part of Arab population (quite large, correct me if I am wrong) have a right to vote.


Black Americans had a right to vote after the Civil War, but that didn't prevent nor mean that they were still second class citizens without much social justice. I can vote for candidate a or b, but still not be allowed to do half the things an Israeli can. Not exactly a point of refernce here Anton.
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 22:49

Originally posted by Anton

The point still stands, part of Arab population (quite large, correct me if I am wrong) have a right to vote.

I will correct you ... it is not 'quite large'. Of about 12 million Palestinians in Israel and the Occupied Territories, only about 1.1 million live within Israel proper, less than 10% of the total Palestinian population.

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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 23:12

So, so true Kevin - I wish I'd seen this earlier! I think much of the reason is that news channels love to play the underdog. I'll never forget that a day after part of the west bank was handed back, Qassam rockets and mortars were fired from there! Moreover, I find it extremely irritating that people complain against Israel so furiously when they prevented Palestine's imports - obviously, the results were disasterous, but Palestine voted for a party which offically wishes for the total destruction of Israel, and when Israel respond to it as a threat, which it is, people complain! The majority of them voted for Hamas in any case - I'm not saying that Israel is completely right, but I think that, as you say Kevin, many people forget the casulaties that are inflicted on Israel - the country is virtually under siege.

...Also, sorry about ranting - I know exactly what Kevin means, but I just wish that people had a little more of an open-minded view on this issue. I see the Palestinian side as well, but some of the things that people come out with - that, for example, Jews are treating Palestinians exactly as they were treated under the Nazis, is complete hyperbole.
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 23:13
Hello to you all
 
Palestinians all over Palestine are roughly 5 million 1 milion of them are Israeli citizens.
 
As for the right to vote, what does the right to vote worth if I can't even vote for the people I want. Israel's election commission banned the two biggest Arab lists (both have 9 out of 11 Arab seats currently held in the Kenneset) from running in next month's election and the mainstream parties (Likud, Kadima and Labour) refuse to include Arabs in their own lists unless they were druze who make about 2% of all Israeli Arabs and hate Arabs more than some of the Israeli religious parties. Not to mention the ban on specific individuals who are popular among Arabs in Israel.
 
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 23:13
Originally posted by edgewaters

I will correct you ... it is not 'quite large'. Of about 12 million Palestinians in Israel and the Occupied Territories, only about 1.1 million live within Israel proper, less than 10% of the total Palestinian population.

 
Does Israel consider Occupied Territories as Israel? If not, why should Palestinians vote for Israeli Parlament?
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 23:21
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Hello to you all
  
As for the right to vote, what does the right to vote worth if I can't even vote for the people I want. Israel's election commission banned the two biggest Arab lists (both have 9 out of 11 Arab seats currently held in the Kenneset) from running in next month's election and the mainstream parties (Likud, Kadima and Labour) refuse to include Arabs in their own lists unless they were druze who make about 2% of all Israeli Arabs and hate Arabs more than some of the Israeli religious parties. Not to mention the ban on specific individuals who are popular among Arabs in Israel.
 
Al-Jassas
 
You have a point here. The only thing I would like to mention is the fact that if large Jewish parties include Arabs in their lists, they are at risk to loose jewish votes.
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 23:23

Originally posted by Anton

Does Israel consider Occupied Territories as Israel? If not, why should Palestinians vote for Israeli Parlament?

No taxation without representation. Wink



Edited by edgewaters - 22-Jan-2009 at 23:29
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 23:40
Originally posted by Aster Thrax Eupator

So, so true Kevin - I wish I'd seen this earlier! I think much of the reason is that news channels love to play the underdog. I'll never forget that a day after part of the west bank was handed back, Qassam rockets and mortars were fired from there! Moreover, I find it extremely irritating that people complain against Israel so furiously when they prevented Palestine's imports - obviously, the results were disasterous, but Palestine voted for a party which offically wishes for the total destruction of Israel, and when Israel respond to it as a threat, which it is, people complain! The majority of them voted for Hamas in any case - I'm not saying that Israel is completely right, but I think that, as you say Kevin, many people forget the casulaties that are inflicted on Israel - the country is virtually under siege.

...Also, sorry about ranting - I know exactly what Kevin means, but I just wish that people had a little more of an open-minded view on this issue. I see the Palestinian side as well, but some of the things that people come out with - that, for example, Jews are treating Palestinians exactly as they were treated under the Nazis, is complete hyperbole.


Sure nice to have some alternative reality spectacles, makes one miss a lot apparently. Fact is that the Palestinians are treated like s--t for the lack of a better word. Also, Hamas is a direct outcome of Isreal's actions, not only that, but they supported Hamas at the expense of Fatah. O my just reading a bit more instead of taking the side of whoever is the unpopular subject in today's new surely does bring forth more fruitful results.


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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 23:42
Edgewater
Indeed. Not to mention that Palestinians inside the "actual land" are hardly equal citizens, even if they can vote. They must carry special ethnic identification, not only on their personal identification, but on their license plates - a modern-day equivalent of a star or armband. They cannot serve in the military. They cannot marry, or even be married to, any Palestinian from the occupied territories! If they are, they will be deported to the occupied territories, unless they choose to live apart. That, in particular, is just plain inhuman.


Are you serious? or did I miss the joke?

I would have thought that especially the Jews who survived or fled from the holocoust would be more tolerant and against ethnic divisions.
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 23:46
Originally posted by Bulldog

Are you serious? or did I miss the joke?

I am not kidding in the least.

Families Divided: An Analysis of Israel's Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law
Bethany M. Nikfar*

I. Introduction

As international leaders attempt to salvage the last vestige of the peace process between Israel and the Palestinian territories, the residents of the region continue to suffer human rights violations. Although the much-touted "road map to peace" once offered some glimmer of hope for stability in the region, the past few years have seen multiple violations of human rights and international humanitarian law since the outbreak of Israeli-Palestinian conflict. An anti-immigration measure that threatens to break up thousands of Israeli Arab families presents yet another violation of human rights.

The law, passed July 31, 2003 prohibits Palestinian spouses from obtaining citizenship, permanent residency and temporary residency status in Israel by marriage to an Israeli citizen, a process referred to as "family reunification." The provision also applies to children from the territories (West Bank and Gaza) who wish to live with an Israeli Arab parent.


http://www.law.northwestern.edu/journals/jihr/v3/5/



Edited by edgewaters - 22-Jan-2009 at 23:52
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 10:30
Does Israel consider Occupied Territories as Israel? If not, why should Palestinians vote for Israeli Parlament?
I sadly see that you missed my point completely when I wrote about 'actual' Turkey etc. That was a fantasy, there is no such thing in reality. What I have written is, according to you, if Turkey created this situation, i.e. called the South East 'territories' and revoked the Kurds' citizenship there, but allowed the Kurds in the rest of the country (there are 2 millions in Istanbul alone) to vote that would be OK, because that's exactly what Israel is doing in Palestine. If this happened I don't think you or anyone else would have called Turkey democratic. But you call Israel just that, because you are racists. 

You can't control a land, colonise it, tax it and bomb it whenever you like for 40 years, while denying citizenship to people living in there and claim to be a democracy. If you do that, it means that you are an apartheid regime, which Israel is. Terms such as apartheid, bantustan, ghetto, lebensraum should be used when discussing Israel, not human rights, democracy or freedom.  

We are talking about a regime which intentionally bombed UN facilities with illegal phosporus bombs (first they shot it with a normal shell, when the UN people called them and told them to stop, they fired the phosporus bombs), FFS. Still some 'people' try to defend them. This moral bankrupcy is really disgusting.
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 11:46
Originally posted by Aster Thrax Eupator

So, so true Kevin - I wish I'd seen this earlier! I think much of the reason is that news channels love to play the underdog. I'll never forget that a day after part of the west bank was handed back, Qassam rockets and mortars were fired from there! Moreover, I find it extremely irritating that people complain against Israel so furiously when they prevented Palestine's imports - obviously, the results were disasterous, but Palestine voted for a party which offically wishes for the total destruction of Israel, and when Israel respond to it as a threat, which it is, people complain! The majority of them voted for Hamas in any case - I'm not saying that Israel is completely right, but I think that, as you say Kevin, many people forget the casulaties that are inflicted on Israel - the country is virtually under siege.

...Also, sorry about ranting - I know exactly what Kevin means, but I just wish that people had a little more of an open-minded view on this issue. I see the Palestinian side as well, but some of the things that people come out with - that, for example, Jews are treating Palestinians exactly as they were treated under the Nazis, is complete hyperbole.


Sure nice to have some alternative reality spectacles, makes one miss a lot apparently. Fact is that the Palestinians are treated like s--t for the lack of a better word. Also, Hamas is a direct outcome of Isreal's actions, not only that, but they supported Hamas at the expense of Fatah. O my just reading a bit more instead of taking the side of whoever is the unpopular subject in today's new surely does bring forth more fruitful results.
 
I never said that I condone many of the actions of the IDF, but any country that is consistently threatened to be blasted out of existence and is constantly attacked will react like that - it's sad but true. I realise that the Palestinians are being abused in Israel in many respects, but I don't think that the news gives much of the Israeli side of the story - it's not all one way, and with people like John Pilager writing his articles in the new statesman, not many people are going to realise this. I'm not a zionist in any way, the fact that I'm part Jewish and have relatives living there certainly makes me a little more bias, but I'm just playing devils' advocate - I could have given an almost equal rant about how Palestinians were abused, but because of the title of the thread, I decided to address Kevin's statement. All I'm saying is that its' undeniably more fashionable to be pro-Tibet, pro-Palestine, etc etc - always the underdog - rather than actually address the other side of the debate.
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 11:50
well its going to come out now, forget phospours bombs thats just a part of it. Story if excutions have come out as well.

i thought they got away with it, in Lebanon but i have a feeling this time they may have to many witnesses and soldier excess on the population


The UN's senior human rights body approved a resolution yesterday condemning the Israeli offensive for "massive violations of human rights". A senior UN source said the body's humanitarian agencies were compiling evidence of war crimes and passing it on to the "highest levels" to be used as seen fit.

Some human rights activists allege that the Israeli leadership gave an order to keep military casualties low no matter what cost to civilians. That strategy has directly contributed to one of the bloodiest Israeli assaults on the Palestinian territories, they say.

John Ging, head of the UN Palestinian refugee agency in Gaza, said: "It's about accountability [over] the issue of the appropriateness of the force used, the proportionality of the force used and the whole issue of duty of care of civilians.

"We don't want to join any chorus of passing judgment but there should be an investigation of any and every incident where there are concerns there might have been violations in international law."

The Israeli military are accused of:

• Using powerful shells in civilian areas which the army knew would cause large numbers of innocent casualties;

• Using banned weapons such as phosphorus bombs;

• Holding Palestinian families as human shields;

• Attacking medical facilities, including the killing of 12 ambulance men in marked vehicles;

• Killing large numbers of police who had no military role.

Israeli military actions prompted an unusual public rebuke from the International Red Cross after the army moved a Palestinian family into a building and shelled it, killing 30. The surviving children clung to the bodies of their dead mothers for four days while the army blocked rescuers from reaching the wounded.

Human Rights Watch has called on the UN security council to set up a commission of inquiry into alleged war crimes.

Two leading Israeli human rights organisations have separately written to the country's attorney general demanding he investigate the allegations.

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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 15:57
Originally posted by Aster Thrax Eupator

I realise that the Palestinians are being abused in Israel in many respects, but I don't think that the news gives much of the Israeli side of the story - it's not all one way, and with people like John Pilager writing his articles in the new statesman, not many people are going to realise this.


Apart from a few editorials here and there, the entirety of the news is from the Israeli point of view. Things like the law forbidding Palestinians in the West Bank from joining their spouses or parents who have citizenship is simply never reported - there is a news blackout on most things which underline Israeli human rights issues, unless they involve a Western national, or are ambiguous enough that they may be seen as justified by some. Anything clearly outrageous and unjustified is always muted.

So, for instance, media report on the use of white phosphorous recently, because some may see it as justified; it's ambiguous. When settlers attack the orchard harvest, which happens every year ... nope, nothing. It can't be justified, so it isn't reported.

Originally posted by Leonidas

well its going to come out now, forget phospours bombs thats just a part of it. Story if excutions have come out as well.

i thought they got away with it, in Lebanon but i have a feeling this time they may have to many witnesses and soldier excess on the population


This is a perfect example ... this aspect will never be reported in major Western media broadcasts. At best, it might be reported in a limited selection of print media (like the Guardian). CNN will never tell the public that the UN claims Israel is using civilians as human shields - unless, of course, the charges turn out to be false. If it's true ... mum's the word! Loose lips sink ships! Likewise, if footage existed of the IDF killing cops, it would never be broadcast.


Edited by edgewaters - 23-Jan-2009 at 16:09
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 16:39
Originally posted by edgewaters

Originally posted by Anton

Does Israel consider Occupied Territories as Israel? If not, why should Palestinians vote for Israeli Parlament?

No taxation without representation. Wink

 
Al.Jassas's figures are about right, as I understand it. That means a little less than 20% of the population of Israel consists of Palestinians, who technically have the same rights as Jewish citizens.
 
Fairly obviously, only the Palestinians who are Israeli citizens are entitled to vote there and obliged to pay taxes - and serve in the IDF for that matter. Incidentally homosexuals also serve openly in the IDF nowadays, and women are as liable to service as men are.
 
One wonders how Hamas feels about the rights of homosexuals and women.
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 16:44
Originally posted by gcle2003

Al.Jassas's figures are about right, as I understand it. That means a little less than 20% of the population of Israel consists of Palestinians, who technically have the same rights as Jewish citizens.


No they don't. They can vote ... that doesn't mean they have the same rights. Not even technically. For instance, if they move to the West Bank, they forfeit citizenship. Israeli settlers, on the other hand, do not. Needless to say, Palestinian citizens are not eligible to participate in the resettlement schemes. Jews only.

Palestinians citizens who marry an inhabitant of the West Bank cannot live with their family in Israel - their citizenship does not extend to their spouse. If an Israeli marries a Palestinian from the West Bank, however, their spouse does get citizenship.

There are numerous other examples of institutionalized, official, legal discrimination on the basis of ethnicity.

Fairly obviously, only the Palestinians who are Israeli citizens are entitled to vote there and obliged to pay taxes - and serve in the IDF for that matter.


Palestinians who are citizens are forbidden from military service.

Palestinians in the occupied territories, who are not citizens and cannot vote, are obliged to pay Israeli taxes.


Edited by edgewaters - 23-Jan-2009 at 16:50
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 16:49
Originally posted by edgewaters

Originally posted by Bulldog

Are you serious? or did I miss the joke?

I am not kidding in the least.

But you're wrong, certainly to say they are not allowed to serve in the military. Non-Jewish citizens of Israel are subject to conscription to the IDF.
 
Presented the way this is, British regulations about arranged marriages between British citizens and foreigners would sound pretty racist too. Let alone what the Soviet Union used to be like, where Russians who married foreigners were not allowed to either have the spouse come love with them, or go live with the spouse abroad.
 
Even in the US, a Cypriot who marries an American woman, even though he is allowed to live there, is not allowed to take a job. (I mention a Cypriot, because that's a case I know about: I believe other nationalisties are treated the same way.)
 
Can someone tell me what the rules about citizenship are for Israeli Jews who marry Arab women and wish to live in the corresponding Arab country?

Families Divided: An Analysis of Israel's Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law
Bethany M. Nikfar*

I. Introduction

As international leaders attempt to salvage the last vestige of the peace process between Israel and the Palestinian territories, the residents of the region continue to suffer human rights violations. Although the much-touted "road map to peace" once offered some glimmer of hope for stability in the region, the past few years have seen multiple violations of human rights and international humanitarian law since the outbreak of Israeli-Palestinian conflict. An anti-immigration measure that threatens to break up thousands of Israeli Arab families presents yet another violation of human rights.

The law, passed July 31, 2003 prohibits Palestinian spouses from obtaining citizenship, permanent residency and temporary residency status in Israel by marriage to an Israeli citizen, a process referred to as "family reunification." The provision also applies to children from the territories (West Bank and Gaza) who wish to live with an Israeli Arab parent.


http://www.law.northwestern.edu/journals/jihr/v3/5/
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 16:51
Graham,

you missed his point. Israel taxes the Palestinians in the occupied territories. As well as killing them and controlling other aspects of their lives. But gives them no rights whatsoever. It is blatant apartheid.

Even the Palestinians who are citizens of Israel are not that equal with the Jewish Israelis. Which is a different discussion (unable to marry Palestinians from the occupied territories etc.). Actually, Germany has a similar law for Turks, which nobody talks about. That's more 'volkisch' democracy from the oh-so-liberal Europe for you. I'd like to see the Germans propose to pass that law for Israelis... The person who proposed it would be literally crucified and burnt alive just to make sure.   
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