Tamils in ancient pakistan?

Originally posted by pumaaa123 First lets correct the Topic Head. Its 'ancient'and there was no land in name of Pakistan. It should be called Indus Region instead. Moreover many speak without having proper knowledge or without proper analysis with what they collect. Few are just mythical. Racial identification is complex and just hearing from someone you cant tell it over a history forum. For example, if you say a white can be ethnically identified with White skin color and piercing nasal shape then not all white have the same features. That much complex is racial classification which was taught by the white themselves to rest of the world. The people of this sub-continent are from the same civilization, Indus. Check this that the Brahui langauge spoken in eastern baloch is brach out of ancient tamil and certain group (sect) of people from sind are classified along with south Indians genetically. Today they have lot of external influence. Atlast the sangam literature of Tamil, South India which is recognised world over by historians, says how today sects of southern india camein in few thousands and settled down in this virgin land. This applies for the submerged kumari contient too. Todays southern tip is just left over. It requires much thoughtful research over south India, Tamil and Kumari continent, which could simply kill away those meaningless stories.

You obviously dont understand the meaning of "Ancient". No modern country existed in Ancient times, so "Ancient anything" is just the modern country but in ancient times.

The tendency of referring to Afghanistan and Pakistan as Ancient India is flawed reasoning and wont keep going on.

India is also a recent creation. The idea of Pakistan being called "India" stems from British Raj. You need to understand that British India died a long time ago, and Modern India was created.

Secondly, Indus Valley is based in Pakistan, so Ancient Pakistan = Indus Region.

And no, all the people of the subcontinent did not come from the IVC. The civilisation is only 5000 years old. Humans settled India far earlier than that when they came from Africa originally. Your theory doesnt take into account those people.

Languages like Punjabi really are ancient. The similarities between Brahui and Tamil could have been caused by a thousand other things, there is no need to jump to conclusions with one fact which supports your point of view. The Tamil theory has no evidence to back it up.

While Pakistan might be a recent creation, Pakistanis are not. So Pakistans history can go past 60 years. Labelling everything Indian doesnt always make sense.



Edited by SpartaN117 - 29-Jul-2007 at 17:52

I think Prof. Dani and several others have clearly demonstrated that the Indus Valley Civilization was an indigenous one and that the Dravidian theory is flawed.  Many believe that a significant breakthrough is eminent as more and more information and knowledge about this ancient civilization is revealed and Pakistani's come to learn more and more of their past history and uniqueness.  Recent changes in government textbooks to allow for greater appreciation of Pakistan's past are all steps in the right direction.

I have already started a yahoo.group in the following site:

I've always learned that Sinhalese were Northwest Indians and that Tamils were Dravidians.

Originally posted by kapoor actually ask bilal 2000, as he is studying the indus valley civilization. To date all the DNA evidence suggests that the people living today on the indus valley are the direct decendants of the indus valley civilization people. So to say they were tamil is purely false.

There has been done an anthropological analysis on the 300 or so skeletons found in Mohenjodaro and Harappa and it was stated that those skeletons are no different than that of the population of Sindh and Punjab living there today. I was looking at an African site and there it was stated that Indus Valley Civilization was Black. It is about time that Tamils and black nationalists or even white nationalists should lay of our history.

About �Aryans� and �Dravidians�, I have posted my two papers in www.allempires.com,

as follows �

 

1. �Ariyar� in the Ancient Tamil Literature.
2. The Dravidian Problem.

 

They have been presented taking internal evidences from the ancient Tamil literature / Sangam Literature. As the westerners / Indologists proceeded from Sanskrit or �Aryan� literature to discover them, I have proceeded from the ancient Tamil literature or �Dravidian� literature to find out their presence in their literature. But, in the literature we find no �Aryans� and �Dravidians�. They have been and are discussed and debated in many forums.

 

Besides linguistic, anthropological and literary interpretation, there has been political interpretation also (in AE). The members can go through and find out.

 

I invited for separate discussion, only to concentrate in the subject-matter, as I have also invited Tamilarchi Yahoo. Group, which always holds that IVC is Tamil one.

 

Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000 I was looking at an African site and there it was stated that Indus Valley Civilization was Black. It is about time that Tamils and black nationalists or even white nationalists should lay of our history.

@Azat

Nothing is known about the IVC culture, so I am quite amazed how you can compare the IVC culture to Todays cultures.

There are many theories about the IVC people, but in order to support this alleged mass migration to modern India, you need to take into account the population of Pakistan.

In recorded history, there are no references stating that the Pakistani people invaded the region of Pakistan. The people of Pakistan have lived there for as far as records go back. So in order to state that the IVC people are not Pakistanis, but Indians, you need to solve the issue of the Pakistani peoples origin.

You might also want to note that White Nationalists and Black Nationalists claim they are the descendants of the IVC people. All this is made so much easier for these groups as nothing conclusive is known about the people of IVC.
The right approach would be to look at the people who inhabit the Indus valley Today, and consider the fact that they have always inhabited the region.
I dont understand why people cant see this.

Originally posted by Jayachandran I do not know why Pakistanis should claim IVC heritage having converted to Islam.   Pakistanis, no doubt can claim IVC, because the areas is now in Pakistan, their nation. But, how they such culture or tradition now?   Azat has said: �Debate on authors of Indus Valley civilization had nothing to do with Aryan or Dravidian words and terminologies involved .   It is question whether the people who authored this greatest civilization had skulls like Scythian Jats or Tamilian Thevers  .   Science through Hemphill and others have shown that these people had crania like Jats not Tamilian type ,it is so simple .   One wonders how Tamilians enters in this picture ?�   Definitely, Aryans and Dravidians are connected with IVC, ever since it was discovered. With terminologies only much of the debate was carried on. Why you mention only �Scythian Jats or Tamilian Thevers�? Why not others? Any importance is given to them or their castes? If caste is taken into consideration, why not Brahmins, Khatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudrs? Tamils as Dravidians, definitely claim over IVC.

You say that as Pakistanis converted to Islam therefore they cannot claim the Indus Valley culture. Man get real. You expect us to totally follow something which was done some 5,000 years ago. Things change  and we adopted to it and accepting Islam was one of such things. It is like saying that the Chinese have lost their civilization because some of them accepted Bhuddism. We liked Islam because it touched our hearts and therefore we converted to it. And anyone many of the practices of the Indus Valley civilization are followed in those regions our bull carts are the same, our flat bottomed ferry boats are the same, the bangles our women wear are the same, the staetite beads that which the faqirs of that region wear are still the same that which were manufactured there 5000 years ago. The priest king of mohenjodaro was wearing the same type of designs which the sindhis today wear. If Dravidians can have claim over the region then i ask them that where was the Indus Valley Civilization in their lore. Before the Indus Valley Civilization was discovered it was pretty much a part of the folklore of that region which talked of a huge city right where the Indus Valley cities were discovered. And to those that say that IVC was dravidian because of Aryan Invasion Theory then i ask them to please go and read what their pet theory is about and just realize that on which sand foundations they are making the foundations of their houses on.
And to the one who says that jats are of indo-scyhtian origin. To him i say that jats are definetly not of Indo scythian origin because they find their mention in the oldest Indian literature and within the non-AIT we know that it was the Scythians who split off from Indo=ARryan not the other way around. The Jats are much older than Scythians and Scythians may have had come from Jats not the other way around.

Originally posted by Jayachandran I do not know why Pakistanis should claim IVC heritage having converted to Islam.   Pakistanis, no doubt can claim IVC, because the areas is now in Pakistan, their nation. But, how they such culture or tradition now?

 

 

Definitely, Aryans and Dravidians are connected with IVC, ever since it was discovered. With terminologies only much of the debate was carried on.

Why you mention only �Scythian Jats or Tamilian Thevers�? Why not others? Any importance is given to them or their castes? If caste is taken into consideration, why not Brahmins, Khatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudrs? Tamils as Dravidians, definitely claim over IVC.