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Why not a new islam? |
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Maharbbal 
Sultan 
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 08-Mar-2006 Location: Paris Online Status: Offline Posts: 2120 |
 Quote Reply
 Topic: Why not a new islam?Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 05:09 |
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@Mortaza
Uh. So I think, muslims at Europea is under a great peril.. If
liberal ones think to change islam, I dont want to think what
conservatives think..
lol, touch, if you care I can translate you some charming
articles where French politicians try to convince their fellow citizens
that Islam is evil.
Anyway, I think muslims should return their host countries. Europea is not a place for muslims..
It is not the issue right now. Educate them. Cosmetics wont help them. They will just say
female imams are non-muslims. So This will only create more fanatics
and division between muslims.
I was reading an interesting article
arguing that most of the London bombers got into radical islam because
of a intergenerational crisis. So lets make liberal islam fun and edgy  and avoid this.
Lets compare for instance the European generations who were in their
20s in the 1930s and 1970s, one developed their anger into fascism and
the other into flower power. Right now many young muslim take the 1930s
option, I'd rather see them take the 1970s one. Wouldn't you?last time a muslim nation try to ethnic cleans a christian one? I'd rather not be a Christian in some parts of the Philippines or Indonesia right now. But once more I'm talking about the West not the whole world and who has the lion's share of the wicked deeds under the sun. By the way, USA opened a war at iraq for the name of democracy
and western values. Now I think all western people should change..I
see democracy as a dangerous belief..
Very good point Bush's administration proves that democracy needs
to be fixed, that some of the doctrines built to answer the questions
"shall we let them die or not" and "shall we wait for their first
strike or not" need to be revisited. We can speak about elsewhere. now, what is problem with becoming conservative muslim? Also who are the conservative muslims? Until now, I have not problem with any conservative muslims. They did not harmed me. They just continue their life.. And end others'. are you mad? Be sure imams have less beard than christian clerics at Turkey.
I'm not talking about the relationship between hair and violence
per se but that having a wild uncumed beard is often a sign of
radicalism while a short or none is often a sign of liberalism, period.
In India it is maybe the contrary but here is not the point. did I said they are not muslims? I said what they did is against islam. Like what bush did is against western values. I don't like this type of reasoning. If a system creates wonders and
monsters it ought to take credit for both and try to limit the
prevalence of the latter be they named Osama or George or Ariel. A
system as expected and unexpected consequences, the unexpected ones can
be dramatic. Hence the system has to be changed according to the
experience.
how much knowledge you know about islam? and how can you claim islam is broken when your knowledge about islam is almost zero.. A system that creates monsters is broken and needs to be fixed. I
know nothing about Sri Lanka, but it doesn't take a genius to say that
there is a problem there. You are a Muslim, you are in charge you ought
to finds ways to change the situation, I am a spectator, I'm just a
mirror, I can just tell you: "watch out"
@Beylerbeyi Arrogance of the white man never fails to amaze me.
Glad to see you are back. You forget to add that the wickedness of the Jew was always a surprise to you. Americans were lynching Sikhs because they
'look like Osama' on the street after Sept 11 (Americans are not known
for their intelligence).
This is completely off topic. But I've only heard that one person
got killed in the US after 9/11 as a vengence. I pity the poor man but
I think it has been much less violent than one could have feared,
considering Regarding the intelligence of the American people, this
remark is so stupid that it does not even deserved to be noticed. Let
me remind you that bashing is forbidden even against Americans. You
keep your racism for yourself.
Reminds me of Gandhi. They asked him 'What do you think of Western civilisation sir?' he replied 'That would be a good idea'.
lol Wait a second! You were trying to convince us that Europeans are
barbarians, and now you are saying that in order to avoid Western
barbarism we must Europeanise Islam! What are you smoking?
I've never said Europeans (nor anyone else) are barbarians, you
begged for this interpretation. But even in this understanding,
wouldn't it better to avoid two forms of barbarism to clash. In this
view, a foreign barbarism ought to adapt to its barbarian host.
Long-bearded barbarian should long-haired ones
 .How about a third solution? I humbly suggest we civilise the West
so that they behave like decent human beings, instead of attacking the
countries where the Muslims live, treating them like fellow humans.
Some are already trying to do it. Remember the millions of people is the streets of London, Rome and Madrid. European liberals exist already, now the issue is how for them to win over their adversaries. The issue for muslims now is to produce liberals in the first place. Israel is a non-secular country, which is also racist. There are
public busses which are gender-segregated there. So let's hear some
white people complain that Judaism is a primitive religion, and Jews
are primitive.
Haven't you ever heard of a anti-israeli demonstration in Europe?
Haven't you ever heard of secularist Jews in Israel? Israel has its
monsters and its issues but seems quite advanced in the process of
creating a strong liberal wing.
Hey where are you defenders of the West? You who fight the Islamic
menace like brave lions? Why don't you fight the Jewish menace as well?
Which Jewish menace? The bombs in European tubes ain't put there by Jews. If they were, Israel would have some problems ahead.
Germany recently passed a law. Now if a German resident marries someone from Turkey, his/her spouse cannot move to Germany unless he/she speaks German. I fail to see any connection with the topic. As anyone, European are flattered by xenophobic policies. It is against these populist measures that democracies have to create checks. In France everyone is French. But if your name is Karim, you'll
end up working in McDonalds even if you have a Master's degree. In
France everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others.
lol, everybody in France with a masters ends up working in Mc
Donald's. I did. Once more I see a difference between an imperfect
social democracy and a system breeding suicide bombers.
In the UK research shows that most racist and least liberal ethnic group are the white Britons.
SOURCES? Once more where is the point? Democracies,
christianism, judaism etc ain't perfect and you are free to open a new
thread about it anywhere you feel but this has no point here.
This is Europe. Racism, imperialism, arrogance, these are real
European values.
Wrong they are human nature and Socrate is human. Their democracy is elections without choice. Their freedom is freedom of the capital. lol it really has nothing to do here, but if you feel like it,
compare the probability of an Algerian man to be murdered in France or
in Algeria, to be educated in France and in Algeria, to find a decently
paid work in France and in Algeria, etc. Then lets speak about it
(somewhere else). Christian countries have bombed a whole nation in Iraq. With the
support of a larger portion of the Christian community. But it doesn't
matter, because Arabs are niggers, they don't count.
Niggers start in Calais But the pope opposed the war in Iraq Then you should be concerned about feudalism, countries full of
peasants. Because Irish people had honour killings 100 years ago as
well, just like other feudal peasants everywhere.
where is the point? If conservative islam precisely conserves
harmful traditions, it needs to be branded as dangerous and those
supporting it as criminals. The same way France treated roughly
catholics that were opposing the rise of the republic. The point here
is not to choose between a perfectly good system against a perfectly
evil one, but to compare both an pick the less harmful.
If you are really concerned about this, you should support fair
trade policies which will let the third world countries to develop,
rather than accuse Islam, which is against honour killings.
I support fair trade and sensible pursue of national interest. I'm
not saying that Islam is for honor killings but that flaws in the
practice make these horrors possible and should be attended to. I am from a Muslim country, and I first heard of this 'Islamic practice' in Germany.
It is commonly practiced in West African countries. It just shows that there are very few African in Turkey.
But your comment seems to imply that all sins of muslim people in Europe are due to Europeans themselves, if so let the European take care of this and explain to these childish migrants (according to you they are not responsible for their own actions) what to believe and how to practice their religion.
However, it is ok to attack mosques and kill Arabs, because they are untermensch. Where did I say that? Is one OK because the other one happens? Besides, who is attacking mosques right now? Arabs themselves. Once more, only talking about integration in Europe, nothing to do with Iraq, lets not mix everything up. However it is ok to protest to Iran about silly cartoons on holocaust.
Who burned the Iranian embassy in Danmark? This is a Western value. Just look at Poland.
lol Poland is the whole West. Is there anything approaching
SanFrancisco in Iran? How funky was the Gay Pride in Lahore last year? Catholics bomb civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan everyday. Catholics? You mean as catholics, ordered by the pope? I don't think so. Western imperialism is the cause. Islamic terror (CIA sponsored
for decades), and their backward situation is the effect. If you are
worried about these things, you should fight against the American
empire, CIA, G8, WTO, NATO, IMF... But you don't. Once more muslims are little children according to you, unable to take decision with their own brain. If the West is a democracy as you claim, you are responsible for
this situation as a member of the polity.
Which polity? And you are responsible to sort it out. Deal with your government and community, not with the Muslims. I do my best, and part of the solution lays in the muslims integrated in the same polity as me. Or indeed some are more equal than others. But you blame the victims instead, and whine when they blow you up in the tube. Are you endorsing terrorism? Terror and murder are always wrong no matter what are the reasons. If we can't agree on that we won't agree on anything. Why kill 200+ Spanish workers? 200+ Londoners in the most working-class stations in the city? You think that CIA-trained Osama bin Ladin attacked you because he
hates America, hates your freedom and democracy, who's envious of your
obesity rates and SUVs...
So Ben Laden ain't responsible of his own actions?
I can't believe the arrogance and naivete (I chose this word so
that I won't be banned) of Western liberals who believe that if Muslims
prayed like Christians, Osama would not have attacked you, because 'in
every nigger there is a Westerner who wants to come out'...
If you come in the West, that means you accept that globally the Western way of living is more suitable for you than your previous conditions. The West ought to do everything to welcome you and make you feel good and safe. But this requires some adaptations from your part too. I see the opposition between Islam and Christianity as totally stupid in the context of your question. The practices of both have good and bad aspects, as in a firm ain't it normal to try to spread the best practice. You shall not put bombs in buses sounds fine to me. @ Bulldog Who is the head of state huh? who keeps dictatorships in power
because they suit certain countries interests? who funded, trained and
armed these extremist groups against the Soviet forces? ...does CIA
ring a bell...
Where's the point? You are all obsess with the wrong doings of the West. But here (for once) is not the point.
Saddam only became evil Saddam after he stopped
taking orders.
Who talked about Saddam? Can't we address the issue of European muslims without bringing up the whole hummaWhat this shows is that, it doesn't matter if your the most evil
dictator on the planet, nobody really cares about democracy bla bla,
what is important is, "do you take orders", or "don't you take orders".
If you co-operate and allow your country to be exploited, go on and
fill your pockets while your people suffer.
Right and so what? Now that you've said what everybody knows already, what is the solution?
Now what is so ironic, is that the Colonies of countries like
France are comming back to haunt them. People are whining because
Algerians or West Africans are not "assimilating". This is still the
same mind-set, of going into Africa to "civillise" the natives.
I see a tiny difference. I see a difference between a "glorious
conqueror" killing the men, raping the women, enslaving one and
forcibly convert the other and on the other hand telling someone that
flashing its differences is not a good idea if he intends to get a
decent job.
From the perspective of a non-White or non-Christian guy in
France, what's the point of giving up who you are to "try" and become
French? Could somebody please tell me what it will bring them?
In the US, be elected president, in France become CEO or minister.
More broadly, it is clear that "acting white" as they say in the US
(sending your kids to white schools, embracing western values, etc) is
a good option if you want them to have a good job, be in a good
college, to make it short: for them to succeed.
For instance my grand father dropped his Jewish name, my mate's mother freshly arrived from Algeria sent him to a private expensive school despite her modest salary and my flatmate was was never taught Korean by her freshly arrived parents so that she'd speak perfect English, themselves they decided to become catholic in order to be more accepted in the neighbourhood they had moved in. Everybody knows emigrating requires risk-taking, tough jobs and sacrifices, making yourself a part of the host society is not difficult compared to the rest. They have the wrong name, skin colour, religion, even if they choose a French name, try to become as French as possible, they still won't be accepted... Two posts ago it was a long process, now it is impossible
What can I tell you? The situation is not good, no denial, although I'd bet two points of growth in excess would solve most if not all the problems. Why exactly do you want Algerians or Turks or Pakistani's to
assimilate? they won't be accepted and there will be no better
situation for them or anybody else even if they do. They'll just be
lost bitter people who will be an even bigger social problem in the
future.
what is the other option, create ghettos till they disappear, are killed or prevail?
Islam is Perfect people are not. You try to ignore the social complexities of these issues by blaming everything on "religion".
Alright lets assume Islam is perfect (I as an atheist don't agree
but lets forget it). I'm not attacking Islam as a religion. I'm saying some
of the connexions linking this set of believes and the material world
(these ties may be cultural traditions, religious practices, clerics,
cultural tools such as websites or books) are rotten and ought to be
replaced.
The same way I think George Bush should be impeached and most of his administration should go to the IPC, I think many muslim religious leaders in the West should be impeached by the Muslim community in the West. Whoever advocates violence in mosques should be banned from this community, the believes that favor backward behaviors should be banned as well. I am under the impression the muslim religious leaders have a significant influence on their folk. Why not using this influence to promote peace and mutual understanding? Frankly, do you think 9/11 helped the Muslim in Europe to have more decent mosques, to find better jobs and to avoid discrimination? The reason I don't support terrorism is that the mean affects the goal it is aiming at. Most of the terrorist campaign evolve into corrupt and violent government or organised crime (cf FRAC in Colombia). It is basic dialectic A affects B that in return affects A', etc. I bet that a pacified European muslim community would help to overcome the racist bias non-muslim European have. I would be the first to support an non-violent Civil Rights movement led by liberal muslim leaders. I'd support the suffrage for people working in Europe for 5 years, I'd support affirmative action in universities and administrations (not on the basis of religion though), I'd support opposable right to security, lodging and education, I'd support tougher enforcement of anti-racist laws (starting by taming the overzealous police forces). Yes I'd support all that and other things, but don't ask me to endorse terrorism or to support traditions for the sake of tradition. |
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I am a free donkey!
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Mortaza
Tsar 
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 06:40 |
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Very good point Bush's administration proves that democracy needs to be fixed, that some of the doctrines built to answer the questions "shall we let them die or not" and "shall we wait for their first strike or not" need to be revisited. We can speak about elsewhere. You are talking like attack to iraq happened because Iraqians suffer under saddam or because Iraq would attack to USA.
As we both know, this is nothing more than a lie.
Bush abused democratic and liberal ideas for a war for benefit. So you cannot fix democracy because this war has no relation with democracy other than using its name.(Like al kaide and islam)
If you accept to destroy democracy or change it(For exp, limit it with some people who can choose a good leader), I will change my religion..
So my idea about democracy, Conservative people should not have right to elect or to be elected. So I can talk about a liberal islam.
 You should limit democratic rights of some(conservatives, nationalists, facist, and people who have low iq.) people and than you should continue to call it as democracy..
Than I will change islam and continu to call it as islam..
And end others'. You can say it for liberal american or european people too.
I'm not talking about the relationship between hair and violence per se but that having a wild uncumed beard is often a sign of radicalism while a short or none is often a sign of liberalism, period.
Acording to our ideas, heard and beard have no relation with liberalism. so tell me, why dont you accept muslim values? why should muslim accept your values? Because muslims live a christian majority country? do you call this as liberal approach?
I don't like this type of reasoning. If a system creates wonders and monsters it ought to take credit for both and try to limit the prevalence of the latter be they named Osama or George or Ariel.
Indeed, so who supported osama, who educared him, we teach him to become osama?
A system as expected and unexpected consequences, the unexpected ones can be dramatic. Hence the system has to be changed according to the experience.
We are talking about a religion not a system. Even I accept this system thing, You should show me how sysem resulted this? Glad to see you are back. You forget to add that the wickedness of the Jew was always a surprise to you.
Infact, He is totally right.
I did not support bin laden, I did not like him. In past, I did not give him money. I did not support a distored islam at afghanistan.
But I(Even iranians, when bin laden hate iran) should apologise because Bin laden attacked USA.
I did not support saddam, I did not like him. I did not give him any money or support.
But again, I should apologise because saddam deed.
I did not support saudis, I did not give him any money or support. But again I should apologise and change my religion.
I did not support coup in Turkey, I did not like their nationalism but again when a ultra nationalist killed an armenian, I should apologise and change my religion..
I did not kill arabs at israel, I didnot support israel attack and USA support. But when these arabs attack back and kill some people, I should apologise and change my religion..
Sorry but. If you look carefully, most of problem dont lie at islam..
I dont remind any iranian terrorist, but Iran should apologise because of other terrorists?
am I only one who see irony at here?
When It comes to European muslim, It is european problem. In Turkey, majority of people call himself as religious, and We did not suffer islamic terrorism(Except bin ladin).
So Problem is not at islam.
Edited by Mortaza - 18-Jun-2007 at 06:51 |
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Aelfgifu
Caliph 
Joined: 25-Jun-2006 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 3387 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 09:29 |
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Oh dear, what a mess this has become.
Why has this suddenly become the old 'but Muslims do/yes but Christians do too/no that is only a small group and not all/but... ' discussion? (and what on earth does Christianity have to do with it? The west is not equvalent to Christian. I am not a Christian.)
To the point of Islam and its need/ability or not to change: it is my belief that all religions/convictions/beliefs/isms etc. are scary if taken too seriously. The point is that all religion is, at its heart, intolerant. The basis of any reigion, or other belief, be it socialism or kapittalism or fascism, is that it has the thruth and the only thruth and is the only on to have said thruth, not to mention the denial of the existance of other thruth. If everyone would forcefully adhere to the truth and nothing but the thruth of their own conviction, a normal living side by side of more than a small group of people would be impossible.
Let's be frank. Not a single conviction or belief is tolerant. It is not in their nature. Yet, in order to have a normal functioning society, in this time and age, tolerance is the only way to go. This means small concessions will have to be done by everyone. Socialist have to accept free markets, kapitalists have to accept social benefits. Religion is the same. Christians have to accept Muslims do things differently, Muslims have to accept Christians do things differently too. And both, I am afraid, will have to accept that the state is secular in the western world, and that whoever wants to live in that western world has to take heed of the secular government.
But imagine what would happen if both Cristians, Socialists, Kapitalists and Muslims would follow Mortza's 'why would we change anything for anyone' rule? That is not a realistic option.
So to get back to the original subject: To the Muslims in this thread, where do you think, if anywhere (clearly not on the female Imam issue) can Islam do concessions which will not damage the religion in itself but which might improve its standing in the western world?
Off topic @ Mortaza, I know it is old news, but I would like to add a little something to my comment on women in the mosque. It is true I am not a Muslim, but that does not matter cause my comment on social restraint has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with being Muslim or Christian, man or woman, green or purple. It is a well known phenomenon. Two examples:
Whan I was in school, there were too little classrooms in my building. To solve the problem, several classes were sent to a nearby technical secondary school for a day a week. This school had three girls on it, and these were... different than us... I can tell you, being looked at as if you have just arrived from another planet is not fun. If anything less than the full law on schooling had not been forcing us, not a single girl would have gone there.
Another example: I read an article about a midman once. (yes a male midwife). He said he could not imagine a better or more beautiful job than bringing children into the world. But whenever he would show up for his regular keep-up-classes, the hostile stares, nasty whispers behind his back and the downright rude treatment by a large group of women of whom at least half were fully convinced that childbirth was women's business in which he as a man had no right to get involved him was almost enough for him to give it up.
Now imagine yourself: If you would have to walk through a big mass of women, showering you with dissaproving stares and whispering behind your back about you when you pass, would you be happy to go to such a place? Edited by Aelfgifu - 18-Jun-2007 at 09:35 |
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gcle2003
King 
Suspended Joined: 06-Dec-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 7035 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 09:46 |
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A male midwife is still a midwife. The word means the person (of any sex) who is with ('mid') the woman ('wife') during childbirth.
To have a midman (who could be either male or female) means attributing to a man abilities that, fortunately, we do not possess.
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Aelfgifu
Caliph
Joined: 25-Jun-2006 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 3387 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 09:58 |
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Yes, Lucky you.
A simple case of misinterpretation. The Dutch equivalent, vroedvrouw, means wise woman. The male counterpart would be a wise man, vroedman. Not knowing the etymology of the English word I assumed that in English, the female suffix was indicative of the person practicing the profession as well, instead of the person the profession was practiced on. Edited by Aelfgifu - 18-Jun-2007 at 10:04 |
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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
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Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 16:33 |
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But imagine what would happen if both Cristians, Socialists, Kapitalists and Muslims would follow Mortza's 'why would we change anything for anyone' rule? That is not a realistic option.
what type of tolerance we are talking If we force people to change?
Christians can do whatever they want. They should not care about what I think. I accept they are different than me.. And I wait some from others. Nothing more.
Off topic @ Mortaza, I know it is old news, but I would like to add a little something to my comment on women in the mosque. It is true I am not a Muslim, but that does not matter cause my comment on social restraint has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with being Muslim or Christian, man or woman, green or purple. It is a well known phenomenon. Two examples: I am not talking about social pressure. Sure It is effective. But There is not any demand about praying before men. So accusing social pressure is fun when there is not any demand.. If there is demand maybe we can talk about social pressure.
I should add I am sure, you have enough knowledge about result of social pressure. I was talking about that you are not a good representative of muslim women or you have not much knowledge about how this people think and want.(As diplomat claimed.)
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pikeshot1600
Tsar
Joined: 22-Jan-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 4221 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 19:14 |
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Is this whole thread really going anywhere? The minutia here is totally absurd.
It would be more beneficial to discuss the social differences of Klingons and Vulcans.
Nine pages of garbage. Edited by pikeshot1600 - 18-Jun-2007 at 19:16 |
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Omar al Hashim
King
Suspended Joined: 05-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5697 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 20:43 |
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Oh thank God someone said that. Now I wish people would believe it, then we can all ignore the others imperfectioness.
ha ha. You really should stop use Pakistan as a rehtorical example. I have been to Tariq Road. (In Karachi, but there has got be a Lahori equvilent) You can find 'out of the closet' gays fairly easily in Pakistan.
Given the alcholic tendencies of the Klingons and the terrible affect that has on Vulcan physiology, I can see there being huge problems there. Actually Pikeshot, we are discussing the social differences between the Klingons and the Ferengi. Star Trek didn't make up these people from no-where. The Ferenghi are obviously the Ferenghi, which is the Urdu word for English, Arabic for French, Indonesian for Portugese etc. Klingons are based on Native Americans, Pathans, Turks Kazakhs and Mongols, and often Arabs too. So basically in this context: The Klingons are Muslims, The Ferenghi are Western Europeans. Now except for the drinking (which comes from a Native American tribe - forget which), Klingons are actually a good sterotype of what the west thinks of the muslims. And the Ferenghi are an excellent take on the muslim sterotype of the west (greedy, ugly, women aren't allowed to wear clothes etc.) So discussing how we can get the Klingons and Ferenghi to coexist is actually going to be pretty productive. btw, the Federation is America. |
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Maharbbal
Sultan
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 08-Mar-2006 Location: Paris Online Status: Offline Posts: 2120 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-Jun-2007 at 02:42 |
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I am a free donkey!
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Aelfgifu
Caliph
Joined: 25-Jun-2006 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 3387 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-Jun-2007 at 04:44 |
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And of course this particular post is helping no end in the debate. Really smart remarks, and so eloquently put too. A very valuable addition I'd say.
Edited by Aelfgifu - 19-Jun-2007 at 04:45 |
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Aelfgifu
Caliph
Joined: 25-Jun-2006 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 3387 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-Jun-2007 at 04:55 |
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In which case there is no use in having this argument. So why are you having it? I never said we should force people to change. If you had read my words, I asked for voluntary changes people could make within Islam which would not change or harm the religion in itself.
To ask people not to care what you think is silly. People do care. That is the result of being a socially based people. If you want people not to care, become a hermit.
And what makes Turkish Muslim women such extraordinary creatures, parallel to no other species in the world, that would make it completely impossible for anyone but one of their own to possibly understand how they think? Are they not human then?
I find it impossible to believe that if there were no barriers whatsoever for women in Turkey to attend the Juma, that not a single time any single woman shows up for it. There is a reason. It might be social pressure, it might be something else. But 'they do not want to' is ridiculous. Woman want to go in other countries. What makes Turkish women so different?
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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
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pikeshot1600
Tsar
Joined: 22-Jan-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 4221 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-Jun-2007 at 06:54 |
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 Get over yourself. |
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Aelfgifu
Caliph
Joined: 25-Jun-2006 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 3387 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-Jun-2007 at 07:00 |
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I'm not the one behaving like a sulky child here.
Edited by Aelfgifu - 19-Jun-2007 at 07:11 |
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Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
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Posted: 19-Jun-2007 at 09:10 |
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In which case there is no use in having this argument. So why are you having it? I never said we should force people to change. If you had read my words, I asked for voluntary changes people could make within Islam which would not change or harm the religion in itself.
I am against because you demandor ask it. You dont have this right. If something would be change, It would be changed because muslims want.
I am not against female imams(If they dont pray before men.), but I am against that Noone but muslims have right to demand a change about islam..
It is not important what is this change. Demand should come from muslims... what type of this mentaly, how can someone can interfere my religion(No matter how they can interfere.)
I dont interfere anyone religion.
To ask people not to care what you think is silly. People do care. That is the result of being a socially based people. If you want people not to care, become a hermit.
They can care as much as they want. They just have no right to demand from me to change my ideas.
And what makes Turkish Muslim women such extraordinary creatures, parallel to no other species in the world, that would make it completely impossible for anyone but one of their own to possibly understand how they think? Are they not human then?
what about religion? culture? and another million thing? or do you think all people have same ideas about world?
why dont you find some muslim women and ask what they think about this praying issue?
I find it impossible to believe that if there were no barriers whatsoever for women in Turkey to attend the Juma, that not a single time any single woman shows up for it. There is a reason. It might be social pressure, it might be something else. But 'they do not want to' is ridiculous. Woman want to go in other countries. What makes Turkish women so different?
Culture? Habit? There is nothing wront to attend Juma. It is not only for males. Everyone in Turkey know this. Be sure, It is imposible to stop this.
How can we stop some to pray?It is against to islam itself.
If they want to attend Juma, be sure they will talk about this too..
I hope you dont missunderstoot me. I am not against to women attendance to juma. Infact I think It is better they attend Juma. I am just talking about real situation and I never saw any women at Juma.
As I said before, It is not difficult to attend a juma. Ask an imam for it and he will arrange a place.
You can say that why should we ask imam for a place. That place should be arranged before. But mosques are generally not enough for juma prayings. So we cannot spare a place for no women.
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Maharbbal
Sultan
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 08-Mar-2006 Location: Paris Online Status: Offline Posts: 2120 |
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Posted: 19-Jun-2007 at 09:42 |
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@
I've given up. He has a point, none but muslims can change islam, but he is wrong because non-muslims can demand a change (yet not impose it nor micromanage it). If I am unhappy of the behaviour of my neighbour isn't it my right to tell him so? Besides, as said we are social beasts. I don't ask a muslim to change his or her believes. I ask a citizen who happens to be muslim to evolve, I ask a father or a mother who happens to be muslim to follow the law of the land, I ask a professional who happens to be muslim to comply with the society's requirements. I would not ask a muslim to believe that there is or not a hidden imam or discuss with him a hadith. No, there is not the point. If Islam was 100% mystical I wouldn't interfere but it is not the case, Islam is a way of life too. Imams and other religious figures have an important social role. Many assume Islam is a set of laws managing the conduct of one's life. As such it interferes with the norms a society edicts and the rules a state enforces. Once more this interference is not a problem as such as they most often then not go in the same direction. But when it is not the case a form of bargain is necessary. And to reach an agreement people ready to negotiate are necessary, as a result conservative must be rolled out as by definition they oppose reformation and thus the very idea of the bargain. For instance, the possibility to wear the veil, to take a day off for the religious feasts, to have a place to pray, to have multilingual information, to have a lighter timetable for ramahdan, to have hallal food in the canteen, to have female only swimming pools, etc require a reformation of the Western way of doing things. In counterparts, isn't it only normal to ask Islam to change some of its apparatus? Once more I'm strictly talking about Western countries with a muslim minority. The case of Turkey is different. Indonesian Islam is not the same as Pakistani Islam, why wouldn't Europe have its own Islam adapted to the European society? It would be both a good example of democracy and a good way to integrate new comers. Edited by Maharbbal - 19-Jun-2007 at 09:51 |
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I am a free donkey!
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Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
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Posted: 19-Jun-2007 at 10:15 |
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If I am unhappy of the behaviour of my neighbour isn't it my right to tell him so?
If your neighbour behaviour harms you, You can tell him this.
Otherwise, I may tell you that you should not use alchol. Because I am unhappy.
I should add, When I am saying "tell" I mean "ask" or "demand". Otherwise noone can stop to talk whatever you want.
I ask a citizen who happens to be muslim to evolve,
Islam and people are already evolving. is It important they evolve your way or not?
I ask a father or a mother who happens to be muslim to follow the law of the land,
are we talking about criminals or muslims? Of course, People(not only muslims) should follow the law. Of course, If These law are just and dont limit freedom of people.(Like headscarf ban in Turkey)
Otherwise, everyone should live acording to law.
For instance, the possibility to wear the veil, to take a day off for the religious feasts, to have a place to pray, to have multilingual information, to have a lighter timetable for ramahdan, to have hallal food in the canteen, to have female only swimming pools, etc require a reformation of the Western way of doing things.
Pardon me but which one of this limit your freedom? Bargain. Okey lets bargian, You should not use alchol and eat pig.(It is against to my norms)
Lets bargain about this. do you want to bargain about this? or do you only want to bargain about islam?
(This ban wont harm you. Also I would increase your image at islam world)
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Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
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Posted: 19-Jun-2007 at 10:34 |
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why wouldn't Europe have its own Islam adapted to the European society?
Because you have not european muslims. You should europenize muslims. Than They will create an european islam.
It is impossible to create an european islam and impose it to muslims who live at europea..
Or I think so.
Edited by Mortaza - 19-Jun-2007 at 10:54 |
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Aelfgifu
Caliph
Joined: 25-Jun-2006 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 3387 |
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Posted: 19-Jun-2007 at 11:00 |
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This example is silly. We do not ask you to eat pig, so why ask us not to? We were still discussing Muslims in Europe. We can ask Muslims to adjust towards the society around you. Just as you can ask Westeners in Turkey to please not eat pig or drink alcohol. If a Muslim country would ask female tourists to please not walk around in a bikini, this is a reasonable thing to ask. If our government wants Muslims to have their feast day sheep slaughtered at the abbatior instead of doing it on the apartment balcony, this is reasonable too. Why are you so convinced any and every favor asked must be a bad thing? Some people like loud music. Loud music does not harm the neighbours specifically, exept in pissing them off. Still, most people keep their music down a bit. It is called being polite. Your insitence that change can never be asked is extremely unrealistic, we all ask change of people around us every day.
What exactly did you base the belief on I have never met any Muslim women? Or asked them about their belief?
I knew a Moroccan girl once, want me to tell you about her? She was beaten by her parents, both father and mother. Her younger brother was never beaten. When she was eight, her brother saw her playing with a boy, and repoted this to her mother. Her mother dragged her indoors by her hair, ripped down her pants and checked if she was still a virgin. After that, she was no longer allowed outside exept to go to school and work. All the money she made by working 4 hours a day after school she had to turn in to her parents. She never was allowed to have nice things, but her brother was spoiled. She was promised to a cousin back in Morocco, and every time she went on a holiday there, she was afraid she would come back married to a much older uneducated man she did not even like, and who had some 'interesting' ideas on the position of women in marriage. Not very nice for a girl who was doing school on a high level with very high marks, even though she had to do her homework in the night because of her work. One day, when she was at school in the evening for an event, she came back home and her mother told her her father was out looking for her and would kill her when he found her, because she had stayed away for too long. She snapped. She turned up at my parents doorstep in panic in the middle of the night. We helped her find support and security, and found a way she could finish school in another town, with a foster family.
She was a religious girl, but she never went to the mosque. Why? Because her father forbade her. She had a very clear opinion on Islam. She believed it had been tainted by backwards cultures. She told me that Islam as her parents saw it was not her Islam. And that is the view I still hold: the Islam as practiced by many in this country and elsewhere is not Islam as it should be. So yes, you can make an European version of Islam. It is Islam based on the real thing, but perhaps inspired on European ideas on how to treat one's daughters.
Ever heard of Bosnians? Edited by Aelfgifu - 19-Jun-2007 at 11:03 |
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eaglecap
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 15-Feb-2005 Location: ArizonaUSA Online Status: Offline Posts: 3959 |
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Posted: 19-Jun-2007 at 13:41 |
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Americans are not known for their intelligence
I find this most insulting, as an American, so please keep on topic and stop the insults. If the new Islam will accept all other faiths and philosophies as equals then I would support it 100%!! Seko mentioned a group that was heading that direction and I hope this movement spreads worldwide and puts an end the to the extremist we often hear and read about. A long shot though!! If there is no change and there is more of this then I, of course, oppose it just like I would Communism or any belief that would violate human rights and is violent towards non-believers or followers. Is this an example of the change or will it support pluralism??? http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56241 |
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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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Bulldog
Caliph
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-Jun-2007 at 14:41 |
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Aelfgifu
This example is silly. We do not ask you to eat pig, so why ask us not to? We were still discussing Muslims in Europe. We can ask Muslims to adjust towards the society around you. Just as you can ask Westeners in Turkey to please not eat pig or drink alcohol.
Westerners in Turkey can eat pig and drink alcohol and have if we use current tabloid language being circulated, have been invading the coastline and not integrating, they still speak English or German and havn't bothered to learn a word of Turkish
 Aelfgifu
I knew a Moroccan girl once, want me to tell you about her? She was beaten by her parents, both father and mother. Her younger brother was never beaten. When she was eight, her brother saw her playing with a boy, and repoted this to her mother. Her mother dragged her indoors by her hair, ripped down her pants and checked if she was still a virgin. After that, she was no longer allowed outside exept to go to school and work. All the money she made by working 4 hours a day after school she had to turn in to her parents. She never was allowed to have nice things, but her brother was spoiled. She was promised to a cousin back in Morocco, and every time she went on a holiday there, she was afraid she would come back married to a much older uneducated man she did not even like, and who had some 'interesting' ideas on the position of women in marriage. Not very nice for a girl who was doing school on a high level with very high marks, even though she had to do her homework in the night because of her work. One day, when she was at school in the evening for an event, she came back home and her mother told her her father was out looking for her and would kill her when he found her, because she had stayed away for too long. She snapped. She turned up at my parents doorstep in panic in the middle of the night. We helped her find support and security, and found a way she could finish school in another town, with a foster family.
I knew a Dutch girl once, want me to tell you about her? She was beaten by her parents, both father and mother. Her younger brother was never beaten. When she was twelve, she got pregnant and her mother found out. Her family kicked her out, she got given a home by the state in a council estate. Soon the child was born, there was no father to support and her family had disowned her. She got heavily involved in drugs and alcohol and soon had another kid. Soon she had many kids from different fathers and cared for none of them. The children growing up in this environment soon became criminals, didn't care about education and became a problem for society in general.
We can all find tragedy stories, it doesn't give us the right to use them to patronise entire communities. Islam is perfect
There are problems in society.
We've already established that, woman Imams, teachers, scholors, leaders are permitted by Islam. However, some sexist men have a problem with this.
Hence, its not a "religous" problem, but a "social" problem.
I feel, some want to ignore the social problems and stick their head in the sand saying there's nothing we can do, its their religions fault and as they won't change their religion we won't be responsible for our actions.
What is being forgotten is that alot of muslim migrants to Europe, were illeterate villagers from poor rural regions. They were conservative before they came and still are. Having no qualifications, not being able to speak the official language doesn't give you much opportunities so obviously they ended up in the poorest regions of the cities they migrated to.
There are social problems in these economically deprived areas regardless of ethnicty or religion.
Unfortunately, these social problems are being ignored and everything is just being blamed on Islam.
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