Why not a new islam?
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Topic: Why not a new islam?
Posted By: Maharbbal
Subject: Why not a new islam?
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 17:21
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Hi, Notwithstading the holocaust the most important factor that helped the transformation of judaism from a religion of the other into a western faith was the rise of a new form of religious practice more open and more modern. There are still traditional institutions, but most of the synagogues have mixed genders, hired female rabbis, developed batmizvas (female equivalent of barmizvas) and in general became very liberal on numerous social issues. As a result from very christian countries (like the US) to very secular one (like France), the Jewish communities have found their place. The same can be said about the Catholic Church. Even though the progresses are less spectacular and the decision more centralised the concil Vatican 2 has create a new dynamic and one can hope that the next pope will turn the old church into a modern one. Despite the recent surge of neo-con evangelist, the position of the Lutherian church in Germany or the archbishopp of Canterbury in England tend to show that protestants are going in the same direction. The development of new religions in the West (buddhism in particular) is another evidence. But the progresses of Islam seem much less impressive. Despite a highly decentralized structure islam is still highly conservative. Not only there is no female imam, but many worshipers complain that the ministers are out of touch with reality. They tend to have little more to say about issues like sex, drugs, divorce, suicide and so on that these are temptation from the demon and that one has to react as a good muslim. This is made worth by the influence of Saudi Arabia on the formation of the imams. Not exactly a model of freedom Similarly numerous imams in the West are imported from other countries and may not be able to speak the language of the youth, let alone understanding its problems. These factors, of course coupled with the bad image of the religion given by international events and endogenous intolerance may be one of the reasons why muslim population have so much trouble to integrate in European countries. As a result the modern elements amongst the muslim population are often given a choice: submission or rupture. Do you know any attempt aiming at westernizing Islam? Or do you think I am wrong and traditional islam is not being confrontational with modern western values? ------------- I am a free donkey! |
Replies:
Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 17:48
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Traditional Islam IS being confrontational with Western values. Islamists revere a form of Islam that cannot be sustained in the modern world, and are willing to harm non-Islamic cultures to make a point. Non-Islamic cultures are "impure," Satanic and deserve to be destroyed. What do you think the chances of that are?
In my view, there is little likelihood that "traditional" Islam and Western cultures can be reconciled. Islam requires, indeed demands, submission. There is no f***ing way the essence of Western cultures will submit to so primitive a concept. It is not the year 750 AD.
The Islamist cancer will be (as most abberations are) a generational phenomenon that will wither and die, which is what it deserves. All the old "Mahdis" are now just corpses. The current ones will wind up the same, as shall we all.
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Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 17:58
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I see you feel strongly about it. But in my opinion (specially since I'm in the US) there is no problem with Islamism if by that you understand political islam. Just switch on the TV and all the presidential candidate of both sides keep going on about their faith and how their faith is important in their decision making etc. The problem is extreme islamism, just as extreme political catholicism is a problem. The problem is that no presidential candidate will ever be able to say "my muslim faith induces me to think X" because due to a prevalent traditional vision of islam, this type of articulate position is made impossible or at least not likely to be understood nowadays. PS: I'm strictly referring to the institutions (madrassas and imams) not individual belivers who can be both muslim and modern. ------------- I am a free donkey! |
Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 18:05
This doesn't help to convince me much. The US is lately rather belligerent and at odds with the rest of the West as well. Even hostile to many of our cultural values. |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 18:11
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Simple answer: Islam and Muslims are not a unit, there are plenty of Westernised Muslims. ------------- |
Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 18:23
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That didn't seem to be the point of Maharbbal's post though. Islamic THEOLOGY demands things that are not compatible with the modern world and modern realities.
While many Christian Churches preach things that are unlikely to be practiced, most of them realize that these are ideals, and are willing to roll with the punch. Imams may encourage violence as "God's Will." In foreign cultures that is hardly likely to make them welcome, and contributes to the image of Islam as a violent, primitive and threatening religion.
Long term, not very healthy for Islam.
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 18:29
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well, the point is that there is pretty much only one interpretation of Islamic theology and anything otherwise is considered heresy (for Muahmmad was the last prophet etc etc.. and his word is final) - for example there are offshoots such as Bahaism and Ismailism which are pretty enlightened by Western standards but are persecuted by Islamists. Also there is the question of the Hadiths which are equivocal to the Jewish Talmud and as such some of them seem somewhat backwards, to say the least. ------------- |
Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 18:40
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Islam (as any religion) is highly plastic. It allows muslim to drop the requisite of ramhadan if they are sick, travelling or pregnant. The fact that Maroccan islam is not Afghan islam proves that it adapts well to various situations. The question is why a western school of practice isn't emerging. Why always going to madrasas in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan? Look at the Jews or the Catholic, some have been modern for generations (that is why I'm not talking about people but institutions) but in the 20th century both adapted. Many considered Latin as being quintessential for the catholic church, yet it was dropped and now you have female rabbis while traditionalists consider that it is an heresy. Islam is not special in that sense it can adapt, why isn't it doing it? ------------- I am a free donkey! |
Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 20:13
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Are you sure that Islam is a "plastic" as you think? The Faith seems to have been frozen in time for at least the last 400 years. The most recent aspects of the more vigorous and aggressive Islam have seemed (to the West) to be arrogant, fanatical and threatening.
In the long run, this will not be a sustainable model for Islam. If the European imams, or other fanatics, become too strident and aggressive in their pronouncements and activities, a backlash will be impossible to prevent.
What the Wahhabis think in Arabia is for the Arabians to deal with. What the adherents of the Wahhabis in Europe or other foreign lands think is the business of Europeans or someone else. It would seem likely that these fanatical minorities will be squeezed until they pop....certainly not healthy for Moslems who are, or who want to be, "westernized."
Guilt by association usually = condemnation.
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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 20:19
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There is nothing wrong with the religion. The problem occurs when the selfish people take advantage of religion for their personal desire. Extremists from every religions are good examples. ------------- http://swagbucks.com/refer/Malachi"> 
Join us. |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 20:27
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Firstly, Islam has a fundamental resistance to change. It is part of the whole point, don't corrupt the message, stay on the straight path. An event like Vatican 2 is completely impossible in Islam. Muslims have very strong reverse-secularist tendancies. In the christian world it was always religion interfering in politics, and causing resentment. In the muslim, politics has always tried to interfer in religion. Whether your talking about Caliph or presidents, the relm of theology and law has always struggled to stay separate from executive. In the modern world, I have noticed that muslims generally don't take religious advice from people they consider to be less conservative* than them.
Islam is not so much plastic as rubbery. You can stretch it but it snaps back into place. Options like not fasting if you can't, or missing prayers if your travelling, are not an adaptation of people for reality at all. It is straight down the line conservatism.
Thats right, but the difference is not in the theology (except very minor things like whether Prawns are Halal or Makru). It is in the culture of the people. Too many people (both muslim and non-muslim) confuse religion and culture.
Short answer: Western schools are emerging, but these thing take generations and there simply has not been enough time for them to properly evolve. A western Islam, is the same Islam, with the same theology, just in a different climate and culture. My guess is at the moment, western muslims are generally more religious and less politically inclined than our eastern counter-parts. As for studing overseas, Cairo and Medina have the best universities for Islamic studies in the world so you will always have people going there. The only reason people who study in Pakistan is due to the lack of higher education facilities in the west, however this is changing nowadays. Universities are starting to offer Islamic theology courses in western countries now and this will, in my opinion, remove the need for people to study at overseas unis (other than the exceptional ones like Al-Azha and Medina). *Remembering that conservative Islam is not the same as a conservative westerner. Or the sterotype. ------------- |
Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 20:40
There is usually nothing wrong with the philosophy of any religion. However, if the fanatics of a religion are perceived to be in the ascendency in Europe, and those fanatics attempt to impose regimes on others, or threaten others, there will be conflict and turmoil that will likely be unavoidable. If it cannot be avoided, those fanatics will ultimately be eliminated. If it is seen to be sufficiently threatening, elimination will be efficient.
No prison sentences or exile. Firing squads are efficient; bullets are cheap. Europeans have had plenty of experience with those from Paris to Spain to Russia. One's history follows one always.
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Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 20:45
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Omar,
To the fanatical, religion IS culture. It is all one, and government, law, life and morality cannot be separated.
It is part of the primitive conception of life Westerners perceive in Islam.
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Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 09:02
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Omar do you know any of these modern unis and other programs in the West. Because I've seen unis in France and the USA, but they were financed by Saudi Arabia. ------------- I am a free donkey! |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 10:41
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The question is why a western school of practice isn't emerging. Why always going to madrasas in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan?
Because islam is not at western part of world?
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 12:44
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Pikeshot And traditional Islam IS? And what are Western values?
And Islamists are? are they all the same? What is the modern world? Is Dubai not modern, is Malaysia not modern, is Turkey not modern in a technological, infastructural sense. Pikeshot Islam is not a "culture" its a religion. Pikeshot What is an "Islamic culture", there are cultures in the muslim world and these have been influenced by the moral codes and guides of religion however religion and culture are seperate. Islam does not teach for non-Islamic cultures to be destroyed or that they're satanic. People with pollitical ideologies and agenda's do.
Pikeshot Submission to God.
If your in Europe in any big city go to the local mosque and see the number of converts at the mosque and ask them why they're submitting to "so primitive a concept". Its ignorance which fuels conflict, Pikeshots ignorance is akin to the ignorance of those on the opposite side of the fence, both have intollerant views and don't actually know each other. Pikeshot You have the same mentallity as people you supposedly disagree with. Pikeshot Wake up... In a generation there will be even more muslims in Europe, as long as society carries on crumbling with hurtling levels of broken families, drug and alcohol abuse, generations of uneducated kids living on benefits in closed of council estates and ghettos...and so on, people will carry on looking for an alternative in life, some codes, morals, respect and faith to bring some civillised form of living on their mean streets.
Pikeshot Theology hey, which interpretation would that be, Hanafi? Shafi? Maliki? Hanbali? Jaferi? which theological schools? Maturidi? or maybe Taasawuf though, Naqshibendi, Mevlana, Bektashi, Qadiri... What is not compatiable with the modern world and realities? Pikeshot Well in the case of Europe, such Imams are only here because in the days when EU's policy was of there being, "good terrorists (freedom fighters who fight others) and bad terrorists (ones who are against us)" they let in a whole array of crack-pot loony Imams on the run who were hated in their homelands and condemned for their deviant preachings and trying to use religion for their pollitical ideologies. Western European governments were warned about these dangerous people, however, for some reason some leaders thought that they could use these people as bargaining tools or against their own countries if relations with those countries became problematic and so on. Basically, they agreed to, enemy or my enemy is my friend and let these people in on the basis they can act freely, recruit, preach and so on and in return respect the country which allowed them refuge and refrain from attacks against them. This obviously was a huge mistake, now these idiots are in Europe and turned on their puppet masters. Ironically some have been sent back to places were apparetntly those states were "abusing their human rights" a few years ago but now apparently they're not, how things change... Even more sickening is that most of these extremist orders and groups were financed by powerfull countries in the West during the cold war...
Cultures of Morrocco and Afganistan are different. For example, in the Maghbreb the Touregs have their own dress, woman arn't veiled, men where blue headdresses and they have their culture and customes adapted for dessert dwelling. In Afganistan they have different customs, dresses and so on. However, they both are muslim, just like John in England who lives in Hampstead, went to Oxford, goes horse-riding on the weekends and mingels with aristocracy has a different culture but John is also muslim. Or Turks, in Turkic culture woman have a high social status, since pre-Islamic times from the old "Yasa and Tore", men can only have one wife, woman can be leaders and warriors. However, they're also muslim.
Initially there were woman Islamic scholors, teachers and leaders. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 13:56
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Bulldog The fact that they used to exist create even a bigger problem: why can't they come back? Why the important proportion of modern muslim in the West (and elsewhere) doesn't lobby for more liberal institutions. Muslim the West over are often discriminated against, but this simple fact can't explain the apartheid that is going on. I am shock in the UK to realise that young muslim do very good in school but do not mix much with the rest of the population (I mean Pakis I wouldn't know for the rest). Why is that. Integration requires efforts from both sides. ------------- I am a free donkey! |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 15:53
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Because, They afraid from asimilation. Generally, diaspora people are more conservative. Also, what is this liberal islam? You cant change a religion, you can just ignore it(totally or partly).
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Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 16:26
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Mortaza I disagree with you, a religion is as much a collectivisation of the individual mystical experience and this cannot be changed but the moral and political message produced by a religion can evolve and do evolve. For instance if Islam is a submission to god this can't be changed, but the way the word submission is understood by the majority can. If anything it would reflect better the muslim diasporas that are often not or almost not religious any more. ------------- I am a free donkey! |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 16:42
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A religion does not produce a political message. Politics use religion. Moral message? I dont think islam is giving any negative moral message.
Also that fully submission thing is nothing more than European idea. Yes, Muslims should not make sin, is this different than other religions?. But hell, which muslim do this? Zero. So noone is fully submit God.
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 17:08
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Maharbbal
The fact that they used to exist create even a bigger problem: why can't they come back?
Because unfortunately, there are societies where people think they're "customs", "culture" and tribal laws are actually "religion" and have been allowed to get away with such ideas for generations.
Go to a patriarchal male shovenist and tell him about how woman were scholors, religous leaders and teachers, to the extent they were teaching in the top schools and universities and very influential and I wouldn't be suprised if you were called a "kaffir" even if you were muslim and if he thought you were launching an attack against religion.
Woman were highly influential in the muslim world originally, Islam gave them equality and opportunities against the patriarchal narrow-minded nuckle heads of the past.
Unfortunately those people wriggled their way back and started trying to manipulate religion to support their views against woman.
What exactly has a woman driving a car or not got to do with faith? how can anyone excuse not sending their daughters to school? how can people who say they're religous say woman have no religous authority, they can't attend prayers according to some, Juma is a male-only affair and other blatent examples of oppression against woman.
The worst part is, they use "religion" as their excuse for such disgusting behaviour.
The most hypocritical part is they're actions contradic with religious teachings.
They can come back via
- Tackling "ignorance", teaching what is actually written, education is essential while ignorance is prevalent.
- Stop sponcering "extremist groups" well it has mostly stopped in the West, however, they allowed such ideologies to prosper by financing and giving them the support they would otherwise not have been able to collect.
- Special attention needs to be given to the woman scholors, teachers, leaders of the past who were muslim. They need to be promoted and their importance needs to stop being pushed aside but made open.
Marharbbal
Why the important proportion of modern muslim in the West (and elsewhere) doesn't lobby for more liberal institutions.
Alot of people think the world "liberal" means, breaking family values and codes, sleeping around, taking drugs, becomming a binge drinker and so on, basically everything a muslim family is "supposed" to try and protect their relatives from.
However, in the Jewish community I also know that they give alot of value to keeping a strong family unit, family respect, rules and morals, keeping to tradition in the sense they learn language, religion and go to religous schools on weekends. They also arn't fond of the things I listed above as being connected to being "liberal".
A big difference is that, many Jews are highly educated, speak great English, are generally as a community prosperous and don't have extremist preachers getting alot of media highlight.
Alot of muslims have a big problem with the way people are hi-jacking there religion and do lobby and work hard to change these attitudes. However, it doesn't help when extremist leaders were let into their communities by the government and then treated as celebrities with their wacko views by the media.
There are alot of rational voices in the community but they're neglected for the minority of idiots who make better stories.
The problem is, these people are given more attention, they try to use their finance to take over mosques and influence impressionable minds with their ridiculous ideas.
Marhabbal
Muslim the West over are often discriminated against, but this simple fact can't explain the apartheid that is going on. I am shock in the UK to realise that young muslim do very good in school but do not mix much with the rest of the population (I mean Pakis I wouldn't know for the rest). Why is that. Integration requires efforts from both sides.
Well it depends where you go.
In London and big cities, schools are really mixed, you can have Ghanains, Nigerians, Somalis, Arabs, Turks, Kurds, Jamaicans, Poles etc in the same class.
Infact most of society is mixed, you have your pockets where there are more minority groups then others but on the whole you can see friends that are of mixed ethnicities together more than most Western cities.
However, in smaller towns there is more segregation, which is due to various factors. The problem is more socio-cultural than religous. For example, these kind of towns were initially "industrial", most the workers were from impovrished regions of India or Pakistan, they came as a community from the same area. Hence they're connected in some way, so they're going to stick together and this would be the same if they were in India Pakistan or England.
Also "religous schools" don't help and in my problem are a HUGE factor in segregation. If it were possible I would have them shut down all they do is isolate the community.
All ethnics, all religions should go to school together, when you mix with different people at a young age you realise they're not actually different. You don't look at somebody cos of religion or colour, it breaks barriers, kids bring their friends home from school, families meet each other. You naturally integrate.
Also all religions should be taught in school, this can also help.
It has to be tackled from childhood.
------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 17:35
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As far as my personal experience goes, I've never seen a city were as segregated as London and I lived in the Parisian suburb and I now live in Queens Never mind. Something I didn't get, why jewish schools are ok and muslims are not? I mean what makes them less segregative and how can the muslim school inspire themselve from this example? ------------- I am a free donkey! |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 17:53
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Interesting question and while fundamental Islam is not compatible with our separation of church and state I think some Muslims have adapted and maybe they will have a good influence in that religion. Knowing their history and current events I will not hold my breath. I can only hope for change.
For now, they are a small minority (Muslims) and I believe things could change as they increase in population and become more politically active. There are 2.3 million Muslims in America, NOT 7 million which included Arab Christians. I still worry the change will be negative and not positive and the idea of them possibly forcing their laws upon us is one good reason I support the second Amendment. CAIR - Council for American Islamic Relations wants Sharia law to replace our current constitution. Allah law is above man made laws. So, this gives me doubt but they are only one group. I have heard Islam and also some say Mormonism are the fastest growing religions in the US, but from what I understand Wicca is the fastest growing religion. If this is true then I think it is more a fade religion for people 14-20 and most will outgrow it. I hope that western influences will start a reformation in Islam and it would be nice to see the true moderate Muslims root out the violent elements. Sadly, to the radicals the moderates are not true Muslims and face death. one question?? why are the so-called moderate Muslims so quiet to the terrorism and violence today. I know there are a few speaking out, which is great, but only a few. Seko mentioned a reformed groups but I really do not know much about their beliefs. My hope is that a change will happen and they will learn to accept other beliefs as equals. Unless there is a strong move to reform I can see this happening here- no offense: Baghdad Christians threatened with tax, eviction http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/210821.html - http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/210821.html ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 18:44
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Maharbbal
As far as my personal experience goes, I've never seen a city were as segregated as London and I lived in the Parisian suburb and I now live in Queens
Well I can definately say, London is one of the most diverse, tolerant and mixed cities in Europe, having seen most major Western European cities.
Its a common site to see friends of all different ethnicities, mixed-raced couples and people free to express their cultural heritage without fear.
Compared to Paris or Berlin, there are far less problems regarding these matters.
Eaglecap
one question?? why are the so-called moderate Muslims so quiet to the terrorism and violence today. I know there are a few speaking out, which is great, but only a few.
One question?
Why does the media only give attention and a voice to a number of extremist leaders one can count on their hand...
The vast majority of muslims condeme terror but in the current Islamophobic mood it makes better news to ignore them and find some wacko spewing hatred and saying, look at them mooslems this is who they are...
------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 19:29
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eaglecap your comments remind me those heard in France in the 1960s. Here are some facts to ease your conscience. 2.5 million muslims should not induce you to buy a gun as the ration is still 1 against 100, your side would win even armed with kitchen. Not mentioning that these muslims may well be for a good part agnostic. France has supposedly 4 million "muslims" for 60 million inhabitants but at the scale of the it would represent a population of some 20 million mahometans. Secondly statistically the smallest a population the fastest its rise. If I'm the only Frenchman in AE a single other one will increase the Frogs on the forum by 100% but as there are already 50 US citizens, a single other one will only increase your population by 2%. In other words don't worry you'll always have the catholic legions of Mexicans to fight the muslims. Besides my experience is that the old world muslims (I wouldn't know for Carabbean and black ones) are very very well integrated. ------------- I am a free donkey! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 20:51
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Eaglecap is just very ignorant towards Islam and muslim, his ignorance stems from a rightful stance on defence, and peace in his own home, however, what he does not understand is that "muslims" are not there to cause unrest or havoc in his home. Fact of the matter is that Spencer is not the right source to read if you want to learn about Islam, he uses lines, cuts lines, and connects the dots in such a fashion to prove his points. He does not tackle the Qu'ran verse by verse, nor does he have any acamdemic credibility. He uses larger fonts, and spaces his book extravagantly to even have a medium lengthy piece. For anyone with this dillema I strongly suggest Venture of Islam by Marshal Hodgson, it comes in three volumes, and is definetly worth anyone's time. You can get them for about sixty dollars or so alltogether. I strongly suggest them.
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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 21:51
In Aus, there is an Imams school opening in the Univeristy of Western Sydney and University of Melbourne is now offering Islamic finance courses. Both of those are funded by the australian government. In the USA there a multiple places that teach Islamic theology, including many of the big universities, although I don't know the specifics. Most of the best English speaking ulaema are Americans. In England I know there is an Imam school, I have met several imams who have graduated from it, but I don't know where it is or who funds it. I don't know about the rest of Europe. I would expect there are some in France, however due to their strong secularist ideology I am not sure whether they would be public institutions. ------------- |
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 07:30
Now who is the more likely to start sloving problems with bullets here? Sigh.
There were plans to make a imam school at the theological faculty of my uni, or at the one in Amsterdam. I am not sure if it is there yet, there were some organisatioral troubles. The fact that the muslim society in the Netherlands is represented by about 3 different organisations is not very helpful, as these tend to disagree with each other constantly (if you needed proof that being muslim is no more likely to bond then christianity...
 they are just like humans in that respect. This was a joke by the way, before someone falls over it)Bulldog, it seems to me you have made the point very clearly. Better education is the key to solving a lot of problems, in many areas as well as this one. We can only hope that it will come about rightly. If you look at for instance the history of immigrants in the US, it is often clear that only after about three or four generations, integration will set in. A hundred years ago, Irish and Italians were still living in segregated communities in the US and wreaking havoc as they went, now they have mixed so far you cannot recognise them but for their last names. Muslim immigrants in Europe are only just starting on the third generation, far too soon to expect them to have adapted to a new country. Many of the muslims in the Netherlands are Berber from the Rif mountains in Morocco. This is a very poor and backwards country by everyines standard, in no small means because the Arab govenment in Morocco sees them as an uimportant minority and does nothing to help the area develop. The culture shock for these people coming to the Dutch culture and society was huge, and it is not very strange that the initial reaction was to withdraw within their own communities here. But their grandchildren will see things differently. ------------- 
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 07:39
Only 3  . Wow they are really well organised. I can count 6 of the top of my head in my town only. Apparently thats nothing compared to the Greeks, out local government has to deal independently with 12-15 different Greek groups.  ------------- |
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 07:44
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Three major ones. Which are in turn unions of multiple small ones, who still tend to disagree internally too. -------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 09:19
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That there are no 'liberal schools' of Islam is just a linguistic construct, arising from the fact that such schools are denounced by Islamists as non-Muslim. (Note the similar way many people in the US including ones who should know much better talk about 'Christians and Catholics').
Ahmadiyya is a modern, liberal school of Islam. Islamists in general hoewever denounce it as non-Islamic, just as Christians will deny that Mormons are Christians. ------------- |
Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 09:56
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Aelfi,
Don't get all twisted around. Although I know you take offense at statements that make you uncomfortable, no one is promoting any "final solution" to out-of-control imams.
If (in the unlikely event) radical Islamists influenced by imams, foreign or otherwise (maniacs like T. van Gogh's murderer or domestic bombers), feel emboldened at some time to do "God's will" more frequently, what do you think will happen? Counseling; rehabilitation; sensitivity training?
The history of Europe in the last 200 or so years has shown that harsher measures against such perceived threats are more likely than not. You are an historian, and you know the examples, from The Terror in revolutionary France onward. The rights of man and bourgeois society did not stop the post Imperial government in 1871 France from shooting 20 or 30,000 Communards, did it? The Russian civil war; the Spanish civil war, etc. And that is not including the 1940s or the Balkans in the 1990s.
A smugness has grown up that Europeans are beyond all that, but probably not. I would hope that none of this happens again, but who knows?
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Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 11:37
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Just as a side note, IMHO the major problem in world society is that people can't understand religion is something between the person and God.
People just judge others with their religion, the politicians use the religion as a tool for promotion.
But that is in fact, a great ethical error, and nothing but intervening to the religion in a bad way. ------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 12:34
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Like one of my Professors said, "religion can either be a bridge, or a divider if you want it to be, there was a time when Christian, and Muslims lived in relative peace in Greece, and religion was a unifier people visited each other on their respective holidays, etc.. sadly thereafter it was used as a political tool, and that community vanished." I think you are right Kap.. it should be understood as something between the individual, and God, the Divine, ... ------------- |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 13:41
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Quote Bulldog:
"Its ignorance which fuels conflict, Pikeshots ignorance is akin to the ignorance of those on the opposite side of the fence, both have intollerant views and don't actually know each other."
The above is true, sadly the intolerant of whatever creed are also likely to be the most armed, organized and thoughtless in action. They have this unique ability to effect the public conscience, sucking in everybody into a quagmire of their creating.
Ultimately there are five main causes of conflict: Ignorance, intolerance, ego, need and greed. Sadly you only need one.
Ahmadiyya or Bahai are not considered heretics because of liberalism, but because they shun a fundamental tenet of Islam, that Mohammed is the last of the Prophets. You cant just make Alexander the first and Gandhi the last prophet, perform hajj naked in the superbowl and still call it Islam. No matter how agreeable or liberal it may appear.
Ahmadiyya are in my experience more conservative than the traditional muslims. Bahaism on the other hand has multiple fractures within it's ranks and are on a constant decline. I think given time an amalgamation of cultural and religious values is inevitable, whether it would be enough for some is another matter altogether. Bosnia comes to mind.
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Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 15:57
Well, I shall take your past and present theory and apply it to the US then, shan't I? If one takes into account the way the US treats and has teated in no particular order, Native Americans, African Americans and South Americans, I suppose the Mulslim community in the US should be wise enough to be packing its bags now.
I am so sorry Pikeshot, but ever since you used Tacitus to make a judgement on modern day Germany, I have had the distinct feeling you have sort of lost the connection between the past and reality.
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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 20:17
Throwing it back in the face of someone who makes a point is hardly a credible way to justify an argument. This point was NOT about the USA. It was about Europe. You did not respond to the examples cited; you just ignored them.
If a "feel-good," everything-will-be-fine, and "we don't have to be bothered about possible unpleasant scenarios" is your best argument, perhaps that is the most you can do to deal with the situation in question, in the Netherlands and elsewhere.
If you will remember, the reference to Tacitus, as I stated at the time, was not literal. You chose to make it so. That is a not a credible way to dismiss subsequent argument. Have you studied rhetoric?
As you are a medievalist, you may make an academic career. I can't imagine what else you would do with that. If you cannot argue a point logically, and to the point itself, you will be sliced an diced by faculty (who are notorious slicers and dicers).
Don't gloss it over. Address the point.
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Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 22:08
A lot of you guys love to agree with one another, and to talk to yourselves. Anyone who disagrees with you is ignorant. Anyone who has a point of view contrary to yours is overcome by ego.
This has become typical of AE. Opinions are homogenized; viewpoints are bullied and discouraged. If you had not noticed, that is why a good many former posters are not active or even around anymore.
AE has been a great idea, but it has become, more and more, the poll parrot website.
Illigitime non carborundum.
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Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 22:15
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I think pikeshot has a point about the sentence of Bulldog's he
highlighted. A little more respect is required rather than simply
calling someone ignorant who has a different viewpoint.
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Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 02:01
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lol, Pikeshot IS ignorant he should know the two fellows better and not take offense. The fact is that his posts were quite harsh as well. To address directly his point, I'd say that I hope the time of mass murder is still far in Europe. But several scenarios can be imagined that would make the old continent a place way less cool to level in and it goes from a low intensity apartheid to a series of bloody riots and terrorist waves. To avoid this there are not 1000 solutions but two: (1) Europeanize Islam ASAP (2) economic growth of the Muslim communities. Both leading to the integration of the Muslim communities in the European society. Civil peace is fragile and once it has been broken, reconstructing it is long, expensive and painful (see Yougoslavia). Also assuming the worst is neither constructive nor likely. Many communities have integrated peacefully (Jews in the UK, Armenians in France). Islam is a unique challenge but Europe can overcome it. My original question was precisely aiming at understanding if one of the legs of the solution was doing any progress. BTW anything against female imams? ------------- I am a free donkey! |
Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 04:09
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i regret being so busy these days and not being able to participate more in this intersting topic. hopefully will find more time soon. for now i would like to say hard luck Pikeshot
well a female imam for females is accepted since always. a female imam for males isn't, ------------- 
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Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 04:23
What is the reason behind that? ------------- |
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 05:02
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Well, the problem is, you are not making a point. You are just making constant insinuations that every European is a potential mass murderer just waiting for an opportunity to commit genocide. I am so sorry, but somehow those insinuations annoy me a bit. Any ideas on why perhaps?
In a very deep down sort of place, it is certainly true that every human being is a potential murdering machine, of only the right buttons are pushed, but I dont really see why the violence in Europe's past would make us more likely to go over the edge as any other region or continent's violent pasts. No country has a clear book, and accusing us of such things is the pot accusing the kettle in a huge way.
If you do not want to be held for a fool, do not do foolish things. When you use Tacitus in a discussion on modern day issues, you are making a fool of yourself. Tacitus does not have any meaning in such a discussion, literal, illustative or whatever way. If you do not see that, it is your rhetoric ability that is faulty.
I am sorry you seem to deem it neccesary to get personal. I have no intention whatsoever to go into research, it is a common misconception that there is nothing else one can do. There is in fact a lot of work for people with an academic degree in the arts in a modern economy. As for my logic, my marks the last few years have been slightly above average, so I think my logic is quite allright. I am fully convinced my teachers are better able to assess it than you.
Have you ever heard of self-forfilling prophecies? Peope have been telling young Muslim immigrants in this country that they are different and have lesser chances for so long, they have begun to believe it. Result: huge amounts of dropouts in schools. Why bother to finish if you have no future anyway? In thruth, this is not true. The ones that do finish, although encountering some resistance, do end up in suitable positions eventually. But the problem is, the mass is hugely demotivated, and supports itself in that feeling. Now not only is starting plans on how to violently defend ourself from a group which is an official part of our society not going to achieve anything good, it is in fact extremely likely to make everything a lot worse. The whole idea to consider this part of our society a 'threat' is ridiculous in itself, and if that is the best or only suggestion you can come up with, do not be surprised if I fail to see any point in it. -------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 07:21
i think because of the distraction, since no one is perfect , when a woman as an imam leading a praying in front of men, some men will not focus or perform the prayer as should be, that include listening to an imam's Friday speech, true we can argue that it can happen the other way around, but i think mostly men would look at a women with sexual look while women may look at men more into admiring look. also in mosques which has women's space , the women only hears the Imam's prayer and speech without actually seeing him that they are separated. -------------
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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 07:35
1) Tradition 2) Azimuths reason 3) Because no matter how hard you might try, men are men, and won't change. ------------- |
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 07:47
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I am a bit sceptical of this men are men and women tempt them idea. I mean, there are women in all sorts of functions all over the world, and this seems to be no problem to the men around them in general, muslim and others alike. And I am quite sure that the muslim members of this forum can walk the streets daily without constanly being distacted by all the women walking by. And there have been female vicars for ages, and as far as I know, they do not get jumped by a horny mass of worshippers during service on a daily basis.
Why would a female Imam suddenly cause muslim men to lose self control? Surely they can handle that if they can handle it elsewhere? -------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 09:00
As I predicted.
Ahmadiyya DO consider Mohammed the last Prophet (with a capital 'P' if you like). Thus the Ahmadiyya can and do say "La illaha ilallah, muhammadur rasullulah" just like any Muslim. However the Ahmadiyya do use the word 'prophet' in a different sense to refer to other inspired teachers (but not law-giving prophets as Mohammed is considered to be.
Your final stuff is just nonsensical anti-Ahmadiyya propaganda.
However, you make exactly my point. The reason there can be no 'new Islam' is simply because existing Islamists will just deny it is Islam at all. It's as if the Roman Catholic church were to deny that people who deny the supremacy of the Pope are not Christians. There could then by no 'new Christianity'.
Possibly. I was only making the point it was a new movement that at least considers itself to be Islamic, and meets the criteria that most non-Muslims would apply.
It is, perhaps oddly, quite strong in Luxembourg, and has been growing.
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Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 09:09
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well it hasn't been female Imams in the past which from we know that it didn't work or so, but whats is known is human nature do play a part in this, its more accepted to have a female working in an office and feel that once in a while someone is checking her out , while it doesn't seem appropriate to do so in a mosque or any place where religion is taught, that Islam as many other religions consider flirting without pure intention (not looking for marriage in the future) and sex outside marriage as sins. its not about self control which everybody should be able to control its more into the subject ( in this case religion) which is different from a woman walking in the street or office. i dont know but maybe its an option, may be its accepted in some special cases such as no grown up males around and i don't remember there were a situation where religious scholars saw that its necessary for female to act as imams for other than females. so its about preferred option with as less distraction as possible so the the praying will be performed as supposed to be spiritually. -------------
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Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 09:42
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I understand this is the theory behind it, but I do not see why in practice it is such a problem. I do not think that in Islam, Allah is a particularly forgiving god, but I'm sure a man like Muhammed, who had quite a few wives himself, can work up some sympathy for the occasional checking out a woman, and consider it a minor offence.
This way, you are putting the resposebility for this sin at the womans door, when in fact of course, it is the man's problem, and his to deal with. Why forbid all woman from leading prayer on the off chance a man might look at her the wrong way now and then? And besides, is faith not supposed to be strenghtened by temptation?  -------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 10:22
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i am not sure if this law is directly from the Quran (God=Allah) or the Hadiths (Prophet) , or its just a law Islamic scholars agreed on traditionally. so i checked out if there were any female imams and guess what? there has been one in 2005 and currently there is a number in China !! http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4§ion=0&article=60721&d=20&m=3&y=2005 in the above link there are two major scholars who had two different opinions, to me when it comes to a point when scholars disagree then most likely the issue isn't directly addressed by the Quran ( God ) or the Hadith (The Prophet). here are quotes from both scholars 1- Qatar-based Sheikh Yussef Al-Qaradawi, a prominent member of the
Muslim Brotherhood and an influential conservative Muslim cleric
condemned Wadud, saying Islam bans women from doing so unless the
congregation is made up solely of women. 2- Egypts Grand Mufti, Sheikh Ali Guma, declared that woman-led prayer of mixed-gender congregations is permissible, so long as the congregation agrees to it.According to a report by the satellite news channel Al-Arabiyya, Sheikh Guma declared in an interview on Egyptian television that there is no consensus among religious scholars on the issue of female imamat of mixed gender congregations, pointing out that respected scholars like Imam Tabari and Imam Ibn Arabi found the practice permissible. -------------
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Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 10:28
Ok, I think this is an issue which relates perfectly to what this thread is about. Islam arose in the 7th century CE in Arabia. When its rules, institutions and traditions were set down, Mohammed was very practical about it. Back then, you could hardly expect a bunch of unruly Bedouin warriors to placidly take in their prayers when surrounded by women. Nice as it may have been to have mixed congregations, the necessity of catering to a rough warrior elite of Bedouins (a keyl group in early Islam) meant that it was simply far more practical to have the women out of sight. Such a move helped the warriors keep their minds on their faith, which was crucial to the expansion of the Islamic state. It also helped prevent inter-tribal conflict by reducing opportunities for women related transgressions. Of course, this was all very well and practical in Arabia in the 7th century, when expecting a bunch of rather wild warriors to control themselves was asking more than simply segregating women. However, we now live in the 20th century, with vastly improved standards of education, the women's rights movement (in many countries), and a generally more efficient system of law and order. Perhaps retaining this tradition of segregation in prayer is anachronistic. The really important reasons for it no longer apply, and by today's standards there is a general expectation that men control themselves in public. Afterall, why punish the women for a failure of the men? ------------- |
Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 10:44
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as my post above yours (which was posted at the same time you posted yours), its most likely not a law directly from the Quran or the Hadith, its something scholars agreed on i guess according to their own opinon based on tradition and indirect quotes from the Quran or the Hadiths. -------------
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Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 10:57
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That this is not Quran or Hadith ruling, does that mean there is a potential for female Imams in Islams future, even if only for female congregations? Or do you think it unlikely? -------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 10:57
From what I know, a female imam for everyone on a theological basis is not wrong at all, there is scriptural backin(Qu'ran), nor from the Hadith against female imams for men and women. Granted that there were female sheikhs(scholars) of Islam. That's more a traditionalist, cultural, highly patriarchical view that women shouldn't be imams univeraslly. ------------- |
Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 11:06
female imams for only female congregation is no problem since always as i know. the disagreement is a female imam for mixed congregation, which some scholars with and others against. so yes its possible to have female imams in Islamic future, actually there are some already as i pointed out in earlier post. but i think majority of Muslims because of tradition wont see it much acceptable for the reasons i pointed out in my first posts here, still this doesn't mean its forbidden as some scholars did not see it as a problem. -------------
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Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 11:21
Whatever. No offense taken here. |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 11:27
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Pikeshot
A lot of you guys love to agree with one another, and to talk to yourselves.
Who is "you guys" hmm?
This is just stereotyping.
Pikeshot
Anyone who disagrees with you is ignorant.
No, this is ignorant
Pikeshot
Traditional Islam IS being confrontational with Western values.
1. What is "traditional Islam", explain this concept you've invented.
2. What are Western values
What is confrontational about Islam regarding Western values?
Teaching muslims to respect the laws of the land? be good citizens? give importance to the family, community and surroundings? not getting involved in the usage of drugs and alcohol?
Or is it because it doesn't encourage people to go out on a friday night, get plastered, snort a line of cocaine, have a one night stand and run a mile if it results in a pregnancy...
Please explain...
Pikeshot
Non-Islamic cultures are "impure," Satanic and deserve to be destroyed.
Where in the Qur'an is this written?
Pikeshot
Islam requires, indeed demands, submission. There is no f***ing way the essence of Western cultures will submit to so primitive a concept.
Let's replace the word Islam with another religion...and imagine a mad one eyes guy with a hook for one of his hands said this about another religion, he'd be called an "ignorant biggoted extremist".
So muslims are primitive while Western culture is superior.
Much like, Africans or Indians or Native Americans were so primitive and needed the good old values of Western culture to "civillize" them.
All I'm sensing is a superiority complex.
Pikeshot
The Islamist cancer
Replace the word "Islamist" with another religion and the person writting it is a "ignorant biggoted extremist".
Pikeshot
a generational phenomenon that will wither and die, which is what it deserves.
Really, any sources to back this up?
Pikeshot
Islamic THEOLOGY demands things that are not compatible with the modern world and modern realities.
I'm gathering your an expert on Islamic theology to be making such comments?
So go ahead, what isn't compatible?
Pikeshot
What the Wahhabis think in Arabia is for the Arabians to deal with.
That's funny, its American backing that keeps the centre of Wahhabism ie Saudi Arabia on its feet and safe from any rebellion and revolution...
Pikeshot
It would seem likely that these fanatical minorities will be squeezed until they pop....certainly not healthy for Moslems who are, or who want to be, "westernized."
This further emphasising my point about the superiority crisis.
I guess the problem is, if you believe your so superior and that they're so primitive its pretty hard to swallow that people would want to join the culture instead of superiority hey...
In conclusion, what's the difference between the comments written above and that of the opposite spectrum. Replace all the words Islam with another religion and change the author to MuminPike...
I'm against intolerance and ignorance whoever is responsible, it doesn't make it fine when its against muslims, it doesnt make it fine when muslims do the same.
If we just keep silent and turn a blind-eye these views will continue to circulate and hate will breed more hate.
------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 11:29
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Why would a female Imam suddenly cause muslim men to lose self control? Surely they can handle that if they can handle it elsewhere?
I think It is related with how we pray.
It is realy not a good idea for women to pray before men.And besides, is faith not supposed to be strenghtened by temptation?
Not excatly. Islam generaly stay away from temptation.
Also lets not compare islam and christianity.
Imam is not a religious leader. He pratically do what other muslims do. Every muslim can lead praying.
If we are talking about muslim leaders, They are leader because people accept them, not because They lead praying.
And yes, women can be religious leader If people accept them as leader. There is not any problem about this.
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Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 11:35
Good points. I did say the event was not likely, and that I hope it does not happen, but that gets lost in the white noise.
What I find distressing is that ON A HISTORY FORUM, histories are so often completely ignored when those histories are inconvenient for political viewpoints and for agendas. Discussion becomes subsumed in the requirement for "universal agreement."
The PC fetish for "tolerance" and "diversity" goes out the door when an opinion is not popular. I have had no problem being disagreed with here (I am used to it), and if someone winds up with a stomach ache over this stuff it won't be me.
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 11:39
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Marhabbal
Many communities have integrated peacefully (Jews in the UK
This isn't quite the case.
Jews have been in the UK for centuries and did not integrate peacefully, there were expulsions and a whole array of problems. Jews are integrated not because they've changed who they are but because they've economically got to a position generally as an economy where they can't be forced around. Also alot are well educated, speak good English and live in quiter more prosperous areas on the whole.
azimuth
well a female imam for females is accepted since always. a female imam for males isn't, Is this a religous ruling?
Shouldn't men not be allowed to be Imam's for females then?
Wern't females in the prophet Muhammed (p.b.u.h) leading the Friday speech and teaching men?
There's a Black-American female Imam who leads mixed prayers.
Personally, a devout muslim should be able to resist temptations and be mature enough not to look at a female Imam in a sexual way, ofcourse thats my personal opinion
 I think there should be more female Imams and leaders, its a good way to combat some sexist attitudes that sadly exist in some muslim communities. If woman and men can't pray together, they should split the praying space equally. The bigotted attitude of some men really needs to be tackled. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 11:42
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You ought to start with an old woman one eyed with a stern face and covered in cloth. So if one is arose by her you'll quite safely be able to say is a pervert weirdo. Then slowly get them younger, prettier and reveal them a bit more each time. By the end they'll preach in front of giant crowds relayed the world over by cameras in bikini and transparent veil. If Shakira was your imam wouldn't you go more often to the mosque? ------------- I am a free donkey! |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 11:45
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Buldog this is generally accepted thing.Yes, you can refuse or argue against this, but at least you should have enough knowledge about islam to discuss this. I am sure not all of us have a proficience about islam.
there is a black-american female imam but do you know how many muslim live in world? One is a little low.
Also this resist temptation thing is funny. So why dont men and women walk naked. We can resist it, arent we.
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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 11:46
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You ought to start with an old woman one eyed with a stern face and covered in cloth. So if one is arose by her you'll quite safely be able to say is a pervert weirdo. Then slowly get them younger, prettier and reveal them a bit more each time. By the end they'll preach in front of giant crowds relayed the world over by cameras in bikini and transparent veil. If Shakira was your imam wouldn't you go more often to the mosque?
Please, this is not a good mentality.
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 11:53
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Mortaza
there is a black-american female imam but do you know how many muslim live in world? One is a little low.
Exactly but she's more publicised, there should be more, men need to see that woman can be Imams and leaders, there small narrow-minded sexist views need to be challenged and cured.
Mortaza
Also this resist temptation thing is funny. So why dont men and women walk naked. We can resist it, arent we.
If your only devotion was to God it wouldn't bother you.
However, most people arn't walking around or going to mosque naked
I think what applies to men should apply to woman, a male Imam can be attractive to a female then.
Anyway, you go to mosque to pray, it shouldn't matter who is around, I guess if you can resist it will make you spiritually stronger.
------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 11:59
Expulsions? After Cromwell? Lets not compare 13th century and 21st Europe. There were problems indeed, but you should know that most of the Jews you can spot in England or in France are new comers from the 20th century immigration waves. The other ones (like my mother's family) are simply impossible to distinguish from the rest of the folk. Be it in the US or in England they weren't richer than the muslim nowadays. You just can't explain the process by the results. And er they did change, most of them totally blended in the population and the religious practice evolved too (no shabbat if the kid goes to school on saterday). ------------- I am a free donkey! |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 12:08
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Most of the Jewish communities are a historic minority, most muslim migrants are new in comparison. Some may have changed but many didn't, the Hasidic Jews are still very traditional.
However, for example the Pakistani's are becomming well educated and relatively prosperous as each generation progresses.
------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 12:12
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Hassidic jews are easy to spot but a very small minority (a few tousands concentrated in one or two places. PS: Sorry Mortaza for the joke but you started with you "women can't pray in front of men". ------------- I am a free donkey! |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 12:15
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Exactly but she's more publicised, there should be more, men need to see that woman can be Imams and leaders, there small narrow-minded sexist views need to be challenged and cured.
It is not sexist. Women can be religious leader. This is becoming funny. She just cannot pray before men.
Or let me say it different way, men cannot pray behind women.
Also, you have no right to call others as close minded, because they have different ideas than you.
Maybe you are just talking trash? or maybe others are close minded. But If I dont call you as stupid or trash, you have no right to call me as close minded.
If your only devotion was to God it wouldn't bother you.
No, my friend like all other muslims, my only devotion is not to god. I like women, I like good foods, I like internet games and a lot other thing..
My only devotion is not to god. I am sure you cannot find a lot muslim who will say my only devotion is to god. So It bother me.
However, most people arn't walking around or going to mosque naked
 No, I am just trying to show weird thing about your ideas.
I think what applies to men should apply to woman, a male Imam can be attractive to a female then.
Maybe, but I am sure female asses are more attractive than male ones.
Anyway, you go to mosque to pray, it shouldn't matter who is around, I guess if you can resist it will make you spiritually stronger.
Funny idea. As I said before, Islam generaly say avoid from haram. Not resist to haram.
As I said before, none of us have proficience about islam. do we?
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Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 12:23
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But surely we are not talking of replacing all the male imams by female ones those who feel unconfortable behind a woman's but can go elsewhere or pray behind a pillar. What else do you reckon could be change to Europeanize Islam? ------------- I am a free donkey! |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 12:28
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what is wrong with this female thing? By the way, why should we Europeanize islam?
If we are talking about liberal values, It is totally another thing..
I mean what is your aim with Europeanizing islam?
what would be change, If Women lead praying?
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Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 12:28
Ah, there is a point I had not taken into account...
Enlighten me here: does the Imam kneel with the rest of the worshippers? It's just that the only worshippings I have ever been to were catholic ones, and there the congregation kneels, and the priest stays on his feet facing the crowd... I gather this is not so in the mosque?
Only to men my friend, only to men... -------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 12:31
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Ah, there is a point I had not taken into account... Enlighten me here: does the Imam kneel with the rest of the worshippers? It's just that the only worshippings I have ever been to were catholic ones, and there the congregation kneels, and the priest stays on his feet facing the crowd...
Imam excatly do whatever others do. He just do it voicely. As I said before, becoming imam is not important thing.
Everyone who know praying can be imam. There is not much difference.
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 12:32
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Mortaza
Also, you have no right to call others as close minded, because they have different ideas than you.
No but anyone who cares about womans rights has the right to call sexist biggots, closed minded.
There is a problem in some muslim communities of shocking sexism. They don't send daughters to school, they're against woman participating in anything, they can't have opinions, drive cars, do this do that, some think they have the right to not allow woman into mosques and think Juma is a men-only affair.
These are the attitudes Islam tried to put an end to, its like some have reverted back to pre-Islamic days in their behavious towards woman.
Mortaza
Maybe you are just talking trash? or maybe others are close minded. But If I dont call you as stupid or trash, you have no right to call me as close minded.
Are you paranoid?
I didn't call you anything what-so-ever, so don't take it personally, jeez what is it today something in the weather
Mortaza
No, my friend like all other muslims, my only devotion is not to god. I like women, I like good foods, I like internet games and a lot other thing..
My only devotion is not to god. I am sure you cannot find a lot muslim who will say my only devotion is to god. So It bother me.
Well that's exactly what I was trying to point out, men shouldn't take out their own problems on woman and then hide behind the reasoning that they're "being religous".
Mortaza
Maybe, but I am sure female asses are more attractive than male ones.
That's for woman to comment on.
Marhabbal
But surely we are not talking of replacing all the male imams by female ones those who feel unconfortable behind a woman's but can go elsewhere or pray behind a pillar.
What else do you reckon could be change to Europeanize Islam? Its not Europeanizing.
Female Imams and leaders are not outlawed, its some men in male-dominated societies who have a problem with it.
ie; its not a religous issue its social, according to religion there is no issue, its just some men who don't want to accept this. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 13:02
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No but anyone who cares about womans rights has the right to call sexist biggots, closed minded.
I did not see anything sexist at this and we are talking about imam thing not some muslim country treat women as trash.
I didn't call you anything what-so-ever, so don't take it personally, jeez what is it today something in the weather
why not? If you call some people as close minded, I am sure someone will take it as personal.
Well that's exactly what I was trying to point out, men shouldn't take out their own problems on woman and then hide behind the reasoning that they're "being religous".
Unrelated. As I said before, we cannot pray behind women. So just think, what we can do?
As I said before, You dont know anything about islam, and I know little thing about islam. It is funny we discuss something we both have not enough knowledge.
You cannot shape islam acording to your ideas.
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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 13:05
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Female Imams and leaders are not outlawed, its some men in male-dominated societies who have a problem with it.
ie; its not a religous issue its social, according to religion there is no issue, its just some men who don't want to accept this.
Please It is boring you share reality acording to your ideas. Get contact with reality. If what you said is true, In 1500 year, we would have more female imam than a black-american female imam. why dont you talk about realities?
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Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 13:15
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By the way, why should we Europeanize islam?
As I said there is a perceived and certainly real problem of integration with young muslim just rejecting the West this is dangerous for them, the whole muslim community in the west and the whole western society
If we are talking about liberal values, It is totally another thing..
Well I am, but why is it different?
what would be change, If Women lead praying? would be symbolic ------------- I am a free donkey! |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 13:23
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As I said there is a perceived and certainly real problem of integration with young muslim just rejecting the West this is dangerous for them, the whole muslim community in the west and the whole western society
I dont think problem is religion. It is ethnicity. Also time is another factor. They can integrate 100-200 year but not 20 years.
Well I am, but why is it different?
You cannot make a religion liberal. Infact a religion cannot be liberal. Christian european are liberal but reason is not christianity(European people generally ignore their religion). So changing islam does not help much. Changing people will help. would be symbolic
why dont you find another symbol? Islam is not against liberal ideas but people are.
Maybe, Turkey is a good example. For exp: Religious AKP is more liberal(not enough liberal) than secular CHP..
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 13:41
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Mortaza
It is funny we discuss something we both have not enough knowledge.
We know the basics
 What I was commenting on was social issues which have been confused as religous.
Mortaza
Please It is boring you share reality acording to your ideas. Get contact with reality. If what you said is true, In 1500 year, we would have more female imam than a black-american female imam.
In the years of prophet Muhammed (p.b.u.h) and the era after there were many Female Imams, Scholors and leaders
After them, `Abidah Al-Madaniyyah, `Abdah bint Bishr, Umm `Umar Ath-Thaqafiyyah, Zaynab the granddaughter of `Ali ibn `Abdullah ibn `Abbas, Nafisah bint Al-Hasan ibn Ziyad, Khadijah Umm Muhammad, `Abdah bint `Abdur-Rahman, and many other women excelled in delivering public lectures on Hadith. These devout women came from the most diverse backgrounds, indicating that neither class nor gender were obstacles to rising through the ranks of Islamic scholarship. Mortaza
why dont you talk about realities
Here read this
AKRAM. al-Muhaddithat: the Women Scholars in Islam (paperback)Mohammad Akram Nadwi: al-Muhadditht the Women Scholars in Islam
13.8 21.3 cm., 272 pp. + 32 pp. of maps, charts & illustrations ISBN: 0955454514. Price: 16.99, paperback. Release date: 15 July 2007 http://www.interfacepublications.com/index.php?main_page=document_general_info&cPath=5&products_id=13 - http://www.interfacepublications.com/index.php?main_page=document_general_info&cPath=5&products_id=13
------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 13:46
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My friend, do you know difference between scholars and imams?
who said female cannot become scholars or even cannot lead other females?
We are talking about female who lead male prayers..
 I think you dont know what is imam.(so dont be so sure about your knowledge about basics.)
We know the basics
are we talking about basics?
What I was commenting on was social issues which have been confused as religous.
realy? It is interesting every muslim social group follow this rule. (Reason may become, It is related with islam.)
Again you are commenting over an islamic rule and claim this rule as unislamic.
For this, you should know more than basics.
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 14:26
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Marhabbal
As I said there is a perceived and certainly real problem of integration with young muslim just rejecting the West this is dangerous for them, the whole muslim community in the west and the whole western society
Europe didn't want to integrate them initially. They were guest-workers, 3rd 4th generations Turks in Germany wern't even allowed Germany citizenship. And what is integration?
If a muslim immigrant in Europe speaks the official language fluently, abides by the laws of the lands, pays his/her taxes, gets on well with the rest of the community etc is this not integration?
Is it intergration or assimilation that is wanted?
I mean look at the Black community in say France or England, they speak the official language as mother tongue, all they know is the country they're in, there culture is the culture of the land, even their names are native names and so are their surnames and their Christian. But still their not accepted, they'll never be viewed as a real French man and be treated differently. However, they have nothing else to fall back on, if they're rejected by society then there second-class citizens who cannot be on the same social status as their white counterparts.
What I'm getting at is, even if all the muslims said ok, were going to forget everything and try to become as native as possible, they still won't be accepted and be caught in a social-underclass which will cause an even worse situation than before.
Mortaza
My friend, do you know difference between scholars and imams?
Obviously
Mortaza
who said female cannot become scholars or even cannot lead other females?
Why do you pretend there are many men who say woman cannot, forget that they say woman shouldnt even be educated and daughters should stay at home.
This is a reality.
Unless these problems are comfronted they cannot be tackled.
And there social issues not religous, men just try to use religion to justify their sexism at times.
Mortaza
We are talking about female who lead male prayers
If the men in the vicinity agree then why not?
If they're happy its up to them.
However, it causes less potential problems for men to lead male prayers and woman to lead woman prayers.
Mortaza
realy? It is interesting every muslim social group follow this rule.
Would you stop being so defensive and actually read what I have written.
I clearly wrote
There is a problem in some muslim communities of shocking sexism. They don't send daughters to school, they're against woman participating in anything, they can't have opinions, drive cars, do this do that, some think they have the right to not allow woman into mosques and think Juma is a men-only affair.
So this is acceptable? where in Islam is such things taught.
Mortaza
Again you are commenting over an islamic rule and claim this rule as unislamic.
[QUOTE]Mixed prayer is not prohibited by the Shari'ah (i.e. Islamic Law), this is self-evident in Makkah, in the Harram (i.e. Sacred Mosque) itself, as everybody prays together without barriers. This does not imply that men and women are standing shoulder to shoulder, just that everyone prays in the same general area with care and prudence due to the nature of Islamic worship.
http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=discussion&did=575%5b/QUOTE - http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=discussion&did=575[/QUOTE ]
What Would the Prophet Do? The Islamic Basis for Female-Led PrayerNevin Reda http://www.muslimwakeup.com/main/archives/2005/03/women_imamat.php - http://www.muslimwakeup.com/main/archives/2005/03/women_imamat.php And here is another view on the matter
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503549588&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaEAskTheScholar - http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503549588&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaEAskTheScholar
It seems there is no direct religous ruling for or against this and a number of interpretations.
------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 14:29
| we are not talking about sexism. I bored with your distortions. I am out from discussion.. |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 22:02
You are absolutely correct about every point here.
Well firstly, alot of people still are wild warriors. Sure they may have a tiling job and not raiding Roman outposts anymore, but they are still the same underneath. Islam doesn't just get kind hearted religous types showing up to mosques, we also get thick headed idiots. Secondly, segregation in prayer is essential but whether the Imam is in the female or male section of the mosque is debatable. Although personally I think leading thick headed idiots is typically much easier for a man.
Well male Imams can't go into the female section either.
tut tut bulldog, thats Christian thinking. A muslim can be perfectly devoted to God and still thinking of picking up a(nother) wife. I don't think there is anything wrong with female imams for mixed congregations, but I don't think it will ever catch on. There is no need for it, and there is no want for it. Women enforce male imams as much as men do. ------------- |
Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 23:11
I think there is a massive difference between your typical suburban hooligan of today, and the cut throat raiders and bandits of Bedouin Arabia. So much so, I don't think they are comparable. Men of today can be expected to control themselves at prayer.
Essential? Why? So many other religious organisations seem to manage pretty well with mixed services.
I agree, although i do not think that should disqualify women from serving their faith, or having the talent of women made available to the whole congregation for their benefit. I think it is easier for male teachers to control a classroom of boys, but is that any good reason to prevent female teachers from doing their job? ------------- |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 23:33
I don't know about that, I think you give too much credit to people. When we get a time machine it'd be an interesting study.
Because there is a huge difference between sitting at pews and standing feet-to-feet-shoulder-to-shoulder in line. Women don't like being pressed up against sweaty men they don't know anything about. Teenage boys regardless cannot be trusted not to 'engineer' who they are pressed up against. It would completely alter the atmosphere - negatively. Mixed services are common, just not in the same section ie, women have one side of the room, men the other. There really isn't any need to change this either imo.
No its not. But not being Imam doesn't disqualify women from serving their faith or having the congregation benefit from their knowledge. The Imams not that important, he just leads prayers and gives the friday sermon. Its not like a woman can't run classes straight after prayer, or run the organisational commitee that pays the Imam. ------------- |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 03:01
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I don't think there is anything wrong with female imams for mixed congregations,
Funny thing is this type of wishes never comes from religious ones. I remember a mixed praying in Turkey. Sad part is that they dont know how to pray.
As Omer said, There is not demand for mixed praying except from out siders.. (In this situation, European demand it more than muslims.)
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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 03:25
Thats entirely true. While this is something being pushed from outside it will never happen. The only way women could be Imams is if conservative, religious, muslims - be they male or female - start to demand it. Which is certainly not happening, people are content with the status quo. Non-muslims and europhiles loudly demanding will only have the affect of making it more taboo, and will probably have a wider negative affect on womens rights. ------------- |
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 04:22
I do not think this is true for all places. It is certainly not what I recognise from here.
First, the immigrants here came from Morocco and Turkey in the late 60ies and 70ies. They have not been here that long yet. In fact, the third generation is still in childhood.
Secondly, most of them have Dutch nationality, which is not hard to get: anyone who has lived here continually and legally for 6 years can get it. But on the other side, most have not given up their old nationality. This is tricky, because the Dutch law does in theory not allow for double nationality. The Moroccans can't help it, as it is not possible to give up one's Moroccan nationality, by Moroccan law. In Turkey it is hard, but possible. There have been some recent to-does about the question whether Turkish people in the parliament and army should be allowed to retain this double nationality. Personally, I'd say that as long as we're not at war with Turkey, who the F cares.
Now language is a problem. A lot, a majority in fact, of the Moroccan and Turkish immigrants can speak very little Dutch. As they are generally nearing 60, I dont see why it should be a problem. If they still want to learn fine, but I can understand it if the don't. The real problem is that the second generation, and to some extent the third, have a not very good grasp on Dutch either. Partially because the government has et it slip too long, partially because the parents themselves have given it les attention than perhaps they should. And this does very much limit their carreer possibilities and their interaction with the rest of the population. So I still think that the solution is in education. -------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 04:46
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Thats entirely true. While this is something being pushed from outside it will never happen. The only way women could be Imams is if conservative, religious, muslims - be they male or female - start to demand it. Which is certainly not happening, people are content with the status quo. Non-muslims and europhiles loudly demanding will only have the affect of making it more taboo, and will probably have a wider negative affect on womens rights.
I think that people think It is men who stop women. In reality, Women does not accept to pray before men.
If this is sexist, women are as sexist as men.
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Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 06:40
I don't think we need a time machine to know that people behave very differently to how they did in medieval times. To spend the vast bulk of your time looting, killing, traversing the wilderness and being illiterate does things to a person. Your typical suburbanite behaves very differently, the most traumatising experience for the month typically being filling in the tax return. Since the 6th century many things have changed. There is a more efficient system of law and order, MUCH higher literacy and education, less poverty, the women's rights movement, a move to representative democracy. As a result, we can expect far more of people now than we could 14 centuries ago. This is the key to bringing about change, understanding that people are fundamentally different today as they are in the medieval period when the religion in question was devised.
I'm looking at a picture of a prayer session in a mosque right now. People actually have more personal space than those sitting in church pews. There is at least 20-40 cm of space between people, unlike the church pews where attendees are literally pressed against eachother in the pews. The only time I recall a religious ceremony descending into an orgy was when I read about the Bachannalia - although an orgy was precisely the point! Besides, why should a woman who would like to hear religious instruction while seated with her husband be denied that because someone might get horny? Seems like the one person gets punished for another person's lack of self control.
But she can't perform the same role as men, she must take a back seat to male dominance. If she is best qualified to deliver the sermon because of her faith and education, then the looming danger of someone getting aroused is hardly good reason to deny her the opportunity to serve her congregation in the manner for which she is ideally suited. ------------- |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 06:55
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I'm looking at a picture of a prayer session in a mosque right now. People actually have more personal space than those sitting in church pews. There is at least 20-40 cm of space between people, unlike the church pews where attendees are literally pressed against eachother in the pews.
Can you sent this foto. It is impossible to have 20-40 cm between them, If they are collectively praying.
But she can't perform the same role as men, she must take a back seat to male dominance. If she is best qualified to deliver the sermon because of her faith and education, then the looming danger of someone getting aroused is hardly good reason to deny her the opportunity to serve her congregation in the manner for which she is ideally suited.
serve? who want this service? If someone want this service, He can easily take it from a female who want to give this service..(Who are stoping them?)
Becoming imam does not need any certificate.
I am against to change my religion because of distorted(because I dont see this sexist) feminist ideas. Neither female nor men want this.
Why should we change our religion?
Everyone can build a mosque and become imam. Infact for becoming imam, You dont need even a mosque. You can become imam at home. But as we know, There is not big community which do this.
If europeans demand female imams, They should pray after this imam.
Otherwise, It would be just source wasting. |
Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 07:22
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Mortaza: The picture I am looking at is from the book Discovering Islam by Akbar Ahmed, I am unable to send it. But I have seen prayer sessions in mosques before where there is clearly a lot of space between attendees. Also, this thread is not about changing Islam to making it appealing Europeans. It is about questioning how practical and necessary strict adherance to traditional Islamic protocol is. ------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 08:01
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What I don't understand is the "religous reasons" for this. Apparently there isn't any religous material restricting woman.
And what I really am confused about is how men and woman can pray together in Mecca?
 Is it more traditional then religous?
Its logical for men and female to pray seperately, it just stops "what if" scenarios.
Here is what the Muslim Womans League has to say on the matter
The Muslim Womens League, in 1995, in preparation for its participation in the UN 4th World Conference on Women, issued several position papers on matters of concern to Muslim women (all are available on the website at http://mwlusa.org/publications/index.html - www.mwlusa.org/publications/index.html ). In the papers we detail how the Quran gives several examples of women as leaders in matters of state and in matters of religion. Most notable are the stories of Bilqis, the Queen of Sheba and Mary, mother of Jesus (see Quran, 27:33-44). In fact, Mary, as an example of true devotion to God, is cited as an example that all believers, not only women, should emulate. Furthermore, the authentic, undisputed traditions of the Prophet Muhammed do not include any hadith or sayings that prohibit the role of women in leadership generally. Muslims are indebted to the role of women as sources of religious authority and knowledge from the earliest days of Islam. For Sunni Muslims in particular, a huge body of hadith literature is based on the testimony of the Prophets wife, Aisha. For Shii Muslims, the same high regard attaches to hadith narrated from Fatima, the prophets daughter. These women-narrated hadith contribute to numerous aspects of Muslim life, not only those that pertain to women. Women Leading Prayer: Muslims do not have a clergy. Any knowledgeable, respected Muslim is qualified to perform our important socio-religious tasks such as leading prayer or officiating a wedding. It was, however, not customary for women to lead prayer during the Prophets time, but we believe it is important to ask whether this was a reflection of custom or religious edict. In our paper on the participation of women in politics and leadership the MWL reviews the literature on the subject and concludes that, based on the Quran and authentic traditions of the Prophet, it is not forbidden (haram) for a woman to lead a mixed congregation in prayer . (see http://mwlusa.org/publications/essays/polirights.html - http://mwlusa.org/publications/essays/polirights.html ) Some would say in fact that it is allowed (but whether or not it is recommended may be debated.) The Quran is completely silent on the matter of women leading prayer, and there is one example, as cited in the Traditions compiled by Abu Dawud, where Prophet Muhammed instructed Umm Waraqa bint Abdullah to lead her household and its environs (which included at least one man) in prayer because she had the best knowledge of the Quran in her community. http://www.mwlusa.org/topics/rights/womanledprayer.htm - http://www.mwlusa.org/topics/rights/womanledprayer.htm
Constantine
The picture I am looking at is from the book Discovering Islam by Akbar Ahmed, I am unable to send it. But I have seen prayer sessions in mosques before where there is clearly a lot of space between attendees.
It depends on the mosque I think, in my local mosque on Juma/Friday it gets really full.
------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 08:42
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Your vision of the imam seems odd to me. I'm no specialist, but it seemed to me that despite the fact that "anybody" could become the imam of a community, it actually required long studies in specialised institutions and often trips abroad etc. Besides, saying the imam only leeds the praying is also at odd with what I can observe as the pray is often followed by a sermon and because the imam does have an essential social role. That is the same reason why I consider that changing, modernizing, opening islam would be a good thing. This is unfortunately the only example popping into my mind right now but the veil is interesting because Omar himself described it as a "cultural" matter. In this understanding new liberal islam would clearly define it as not a religious obligation (once more it is merely an example and by no mean I intend to debate the veil here). I guess the bottom line would be how to strip islam from its antic cultural apparatus and transform it a bit the same way as islamic finances are being transformed nowadays. Are they less islamic? One thing for sure is that they are more efficient Yeah, of course the point is not to change islam but islamic culture in the West to make it independent the same way as Machrek and Marghred islamic cultures are independent one from the other. Then why a non-muslim should be interested by that? Simply because, the political representation of the immigrants often goes through the religious institutions. I'm urging the renovation of European islam as I would argue for the renovation of the catholic church if the Portuguese community in France was represented by backward priests. ------------- I am a free donkey! |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 09:38
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The culture of muslims will only change in the West, if large numbers of Europeans convert. If there were a large English muslim community, they would still have their culture but be muslims. This is the only way it can occur as the muslims in Europe already have their own culture. What I'm saying is that, they can't become European in culture because they don't know what it is. Sure, we can look on the Tv and try to copy our friends but it would only be imitation. The majority of muslim migrants in Europe come from an uneducated background, rural village follk in tight-nit communities. The large family is how they survived, everybody works together and helps each other, there were no benefits or help from the state they had to be self-reliant and have their own codes and rulings for society to function in these areas. That's the only reason why for example Turkey can stay on its feet in the face of so many economic crisises, families are self-reliant, they can survive, society doesn't crumble in those regions.
Its not religion that is the problem, rural folk have more regard to tradition and culture and outside of their zone of comfort they will stick together and become even more conservative.
If there were 10 million educated, wealthy muslims with professions in Europe, there would not be many problems, they'd probobly want more to come.
Most muslim communities preserve their culture, infact Islam has been a way in which many of these have survived and not become extinct. Muslim rulers of muslim areas havn't attempted to culturally change local populations, if they were muslim their culture and customs wern't a matter to the authority unless they were seriously against Islamic principles.
Therefore, its the English or French or German ethnic muslims who can create for example an Anglo-Islamic culture, literature, philosophy for their community and so on. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 10:53
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Mortaza: The picture I am looking at is from the book Discovering Islam by Akbar Ahmed, I am unable to send it. But I have seen prayer sessions in mosques before where there is clearly a lot of space between attendees. It should be related with something else. If people pray collectively, They should be near to each other. Praying in mosque and collectively praying in mosque is two different thing.
Imam lead collective praying.
Also, this thread is not about changing Islam to making it appealing Europeans. It is about questioning how practical and necessary strict adherance to traditional Islamic protocol is.
Well, I think it is practical. I did not see any good point to change this tradition(rule). I dont see any harm at this. I dont think it is sexist. Both women and men are content with this. Be sure you wont find much women who want to pray before men.. Why should we force muslim women and muslim men for this?(If there is not demand, only way to change this tradition is force them) This is harming noone.(And It help a little.)
Your vision of the imam seems odd to me. I'm no specialist, but it seemed to me that despite the fact that "anybody" could become the imam of a community, it actually required long studies in specialised institutions and often trips abroad etc.
No, As I said before, Imam do whatever other muslims do. Nothing much different.
You dont need specialised institutions. I leaded some prayer and be sure I have not much knowledge about islam.
Besides, saying the imam only leeds the praying is also at odd with what I can observe as the pray is often followed by a sermon and because the imam does have an essential social role.
Sermon? You can do it at home and you can do it alone too. Only thing imam do different than other prayers is his talking at friday praying and someone who know enough talking can do it too..
If we are talking about religious leaders(I think that is what you mean with imam), They are religious leaders because they are respected from others. Reason is not because they are imam..
Of course I am talking for sunni sect. I think shia sect is a little different about this imam issue. I think they have a religious
I'm urging the renovation of European islam as I would argue for the renovation of the catholic church if the Portuguese community in France was represented by backward priests.
You cannot renovate islam with force. Islam has not a center.So force from outside wont help. (And as I said before, There is not such demand.)
But You can change politic ideas of people.(This is totally different.)
I should also add liberal islam(Of course, this does not mean unrelated things like female imams.) and conservative islam does not reject each other.
Problem is that Muslims are generally conservatives. It has no relation with islam.. With this conservative people, most liberal religion would become a conservative religion.
You are hitting wrong thing.
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Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 11:39
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So for you the situation is : ain't broken don't fix it and anyway it is not possible to fix it
------------- I am a free donkey! |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 13:22
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There are problems in some societies, not in religion.
For example some men don't want their shovenist sexist attitudes questioned and so would like us all to believe that they're being religous and the "woman" want it. Woman can speak on behalf of themselves and don't need men trying to indocrinate them with their traditions. This is why more woman scholors, leaders and teachers are needed, for too long men have tried to be in total control of anything religous.
This isn't a religous problem, Islam has absolutely no problem with woman sholors, leaders, teachers and so on, its some men who have a problem. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 14:26
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So for you the situation is : ain't broken don't fix it and anyway it is not possible to fix it well said.
Muslims are generally conservatives and diasporas are ultra-conservatives.. |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 22:50
I respect your opinion but Robert Spencer is only one of the many sources I use; which also includes many primary sources and others with PHD's in Middle Eastern studies. I am also half Greek so I understand my own Byzantine roots. If you look at current events it does not take a rocket scientist to understand Islam has a long way to go to reform. Robert Spencer uses many media sources; both liberal and conservative. The point is not Robert Spencer but can Islam reform. I only said that I hope it does but looking at world events and its history I have some reservations, I would like to see change. Can you answer my earlier question, " why are so many so-called moderate Muslims so quiet about the Islamic terrorists?? why? There are a few voices but most moderates are quiet and being quiet causes some Americans to question. Why are MOST of the worlds conflicts today between the Muslims and their neighbors? Why? Do you believe in Sharia law over our constitution? I am only ignorant to you because I do not agree with your theology or religious view points. Why does CAIR promote sharia law and what about their proven connection to terror groups? Can Islam reform and learn to be part of a pluralistic society? Can it learn to be totally equal with other religions? If so, then Islam can evolve and reform but if not then it will always be at odds with other peoples religious and philosophical views. I have been reserching 1453 and in my research the fate of the conquered Greeks was not good under Islamic law- Steve Runciman, Roger Crowley, John Norwhich and primary sources such as George Sprantzes and Doukas, but I need Turkish primary sources to complete my research. Venture of Islam by Marshal Hodgson, it comes in three volumes, and is definetly worth anyone's time. I will check this out so I can get another view and yes I have read books by authors more sympathetic to Islam like Karen Armstrong. I apprectiate your comment though. ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 23:03
It is not Islam that needs reforming, it is the various extremist communities, that do. As far as Greeks, they were relatively wealthy subjects, and held in higher esteem than some muslim millets.
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