QuoteReplyTopic: Vishnu idol found during excavation in Russian tow Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 05:16
Samvat 1725 could thus be either c.1646 CE or c.1782 CE.
but is evidence of religious contact north of Pamirs. Iranian
Sarmatians, related to Scythians, were in the Ural mountain to Caspian
sea region 4th centBCE.
I don't see how anything dating from the 1646/1782 sheds anylight on conditions in the 4th centuary BC.
The Silk Route was there and Buddhism was moving north. Tocharian texts in Brahmi script are from 5thcent BCE. Scythians who moved west already had Danu river-goddess of Brahmins in 8thcent BCE. and the related Sarmatians were moving north to Ural mountains of Russia. The Church did not appear there until after 11th cent CE.
G. Bongard Levin has done work on it. The Image of India is with me containing pictures of artifacts from Hadda, Kara-tepe, Toprak-kala, Adzhina-tepe, Penijikent, Afreasiab, Khalchayan, Fayaz-tepe, Dalverzin-tepe, Adzhine-tepe, etc. Of course, Kazakasjan site gives some details.
Kindly give me references, if you come across more evidences from Russia or elsewhere USSR, as Indians could have gone to China crossing these areas.
Interestingly, the attempt of some travelers going to the north pole to find out its magnetic nature is interesting in the context, as they must have crossed these places. Chet Van Duzer though finds the similarities between the Invento fortunate, he refuses the Indian influence on it- see The Mythic Geography of the Northern Polar Regions: Invento firtunata and Buddhist Cosmology.
I have taken your point, but the Brahmin factor is intriguing and you have not answered by querries.
Edited by K. V. Ramakrishna Rao - 28-Jan-2007 at 20:18
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
"May I know what you are doing, what is your background etc., just to know in the context to proceed further effectively in the subject matter."
My interest is IE Eurasia, and west Asian influence on Celts. I read widely and join forums to find info.
"What is the book which is about the subject matter?"
-That's the one I posted above.
As you point out that some Russians were a branch of Brahmanism, but they split from Vedic India and evidently kept only part of that faith. Can you please elaborate?
-see above
\Who were the Russians part of a branch of Brahmanism?
-Sarmatians. Scythians.
\When they split from the Vedic India?
-The snakes Python and Echidna of Greece existed before 800 BCE. Possibly they relate to Danu river-snake against Vritra the Brahmin.
\What exactly you mean by Vedic India?
-Early Brahmins of India
\If they kept only part of that faith, do you suggest that the Vishnu idol found is attributed to them?
-Different possibilities may explain the Vishnu of the Volga. Its existence indicates that at least it was known in Russia.
As you point out that some Russians were a branch of Brahmanism, but they split from Vedic India and evidently kept only part of that faith. Can you please elaborate?
LOL. Please read up on the history and origins of Brahminism
\When they split from the Vedic India?
India was never Vedic. Pakistan was. Saying Pakistan will avoid confusion and the misrepresentation of history. Vedic Pakistan is more accurate.
As I wrote above, the Scythians had Danu river-goddess, who with Indra killed Vritra, a Brahmin. Sarmatians who reached Ural mountains were closely related to Scythian culture. The European split with Brahmins produced the "DANUbe" river, and Danaan of Ireland, where traditional law, music and linga sculpture is similar to old India. At that time, "Pakistan" was not widely used for the "Punjab", but Vedic "India" fits that time.
As I wrote above, the Scythians had Danu river-goddess, who with Indra killed Vritra, a Brahmin. Sarmatians who reached Ural mountains were closely related to Scythian culture. The European split with Brahmins produced the "DANUbe" river, and Danaan of Ireland, where traditional law, music and linga sculpture is similar to old India. At that time, "Pakistan" was not widely used for the "Punjab", but Vedic "India" fits that time.
chimera
Your Brahmin theory is wrong, but that's not important.
Whilst Pakistan was not used for the Punjab, or Sindh what was used (and indeed what the Vedicers themselves called their land) was not India, but Sapta Sindhu. By saying Vedic India, the ill informed reader gets a complete misrepresentation of history.
Vedic Sapta Sindhu, Vedic Pakistan are clear and accurate names for the region being referred to.
The web says, "The idol found in Staraya (old) Maina village dates back to VII-X century AD. Staraya Maina village in Ulyanovsk region was a highly populated city 1700 years ago, much older than Kiev, so far believed to be the mother of all Russian cities", and thus the dating is to 7th-10th centuries.
But, the style, as the art histiorians and archaeologists used to go by such comparison, it appears that it might resemble "mathura" or "Gandhara" style. Thus, it could be dated to c.3rd century BCE also.
Therefore, expert opinion is required in this matter.
The dating of sculptures based on style can be an accurated method?
Suppose, if sculptures are made, today, and circulated as "art dealers" or "smuggglers", can historians and archaeologists accept the dating based on style?
It is said that details in a forgery often are incorrect.
If the Kamboj and Scythians were "degraded kshatriyas" who failed to honour Brahmins, then they were in contact with Brahminism.That takes the culture into Iranian territory, which is not far from the Volga river.
It is said that details in a forgery often are incorrect.
If the Kamboj and Scythians were "degraded kshatriyas" who failed to honour Brahmins, then they were in contact with Brahminism.That takes the culture into Iranian territory, which is not far from the Volga river.
chimera
Hello Chimera,
I request everyone to not to confuse the modern boundaries of India and Iran with the Vedic Indian boundaries.
In earlier times, Iran was a part of India only. It was called Arya Dveep, Shak Dveep or Scythia. All the Aryans of Vedic India came from Iran and southern Russia (Georgia). Their nasal Idex prove that they were a caucasian race and were leptoherrine.
The Modern North Indian races specially Gurjars, Jats and Rajputs are pure Aryan or Sycthian:
That means Vedic India consisted of:
Modern India,
Modern Pak,
Modern Afghanistan,
Modern Iran
and Modern Georgia
(particularly the area around Caspian Sea (bahr-e-Khizar) which is called Kashyap Sagar in Hindu Books, Named after a very famous Rishi of vedic India "Kashyap Rishi"who was the first ever architect of the world to make a city Named "KashyapMeer" or modern Kashmeer)
Regards
Ashok Harsana
Edited by ashokharsana - 04-Feb-2007 at 00:31
The Real Ranas, The Real Emperors of India. http://ashokharsana.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=gurjars
Ashok, Dont embarass yourself anymore, you havent even read the book that you supposedly believe in and are making commentary on it.
Rig Veda is very clear on where the homeland of the Vedic Aryans was. The names of the places, the names of the rivers were described in detail in the Vedic text, hardly any of them went past East Afghanistan, and they didnt go past Western Uttar Pradesh or Eastern Punjab. Take a look at this map, and you can see the West fringe of the Ganga and Jamna Rivers formed the Eastern most mentioned rivers of the Rig veda, and the Western fringes of the Vedic places were in West Pakistan and East Afghanistan. Vedism is/was not an Indian religion. It was an ancient Pakistani religion that was simply accepted by those Indians from the Gangetic plains.
The notion of Gujarrs being pure anything is just stupid. Gujjars are hardly pure anything, people North in Sindh or Punjab, Pakistan would be purer whatever it is you're saying purer to be. You're also confusing Aryan and Scythian, lol. This forum and Scythian wannabees
Actually that map isn't correct for the current day boundaries..all of Kashmir is shown as part of India . But you get the idea of whereabout the Vedic civiliation existed.
I like your way, You create a world of your own fantasies where you are everyone..The story teller, the listener and the believer...But trust me everyone on this forum know that u r not doing anyhting but onlymaking a fool of yourself.......
Brother..U must not put your nose into a topic where u dont have anything to prove (Apart from providing the useless Map u provided)
Come out of your world and see what i am posting hereunder...
(by mistake I worte jats as more leptoherrine, Actually Gujjars have the longest nose) Sudroid Dravidian (Kadian) 89.8 broad-nosed platyrrhine Dalit (Chamar) 86.0 broad-nosed platyrrhine Adivasi (Munda) 89.9 broad-nosed platyrrhine Vedic Shudrs (Dom) 83.0 broad-nosed sub-platyrrhine
According to Ethnographers and historians like Cunningham, Todd, Ibbetson, Elliot, Ephilstone, Dahiya, Dhillon, Banerjea, etc., the agrarian and artisan communities (e.g. Jats, Gujars, Ahirs, Rajputs, Lohars, Tarkhans etc.) of the entire west are derived from the war-like Scythians who settled north-western and western South Asia in successive waves between 500 B.C. to 500 AD
Based on coins, inscriptions, archeology and early Indian/Buddhist/Chinese/Greek/Persian manuscripts dating back to 500 BC, historians and ethnographers since the 19th century (e.g. Cunningham, Tod, Rapson, Ibbetson, Elliot, Ephilstone, Dahiya, Dhillon, Banerjea, Sharma, Sinha, Puniya etc.) have shown that the traditional agrarian and artisan communities of the entire northwest (e.g. Jats, Gujars, Tarkhans, Khatris, Ghakkars, Rajputs, Awans, Khambos, Lohars, Yadavs, Ahirs, Meos, etc. including various BC groups) are descended from Scythian (or Saka) tribes of central Asia (an aggressive and expansionist old Iranian speaking culture) who settled western and north-western South Asia in successive waves between 5th century B.C. and 1st century AD. The capital-lion Saka inscriptions at Peshawar and Mathura state "Sarvasa Sakasthanasa puyae" (for the merit of the people of Sakasthana). Inscriptions and coins mentioning `Sakastan' are found all over the Saka core region of Rajasthan-Gujarat and surrounding tracts.
Ethnological information collected in colonial censuses shows that the majority (+65%) of the population of the west ("Sakasthan" including Rajasthan, Gujarat, northern Maharashtra, Punjab and western UP) is of Saka origin. Terms like "Sakasthana" and "Saka" appear on ancient Saka inscriptions and coins found as far as Mathura, Ujjain and Vidharba in western UP (former United Provinces), western MP (Malwa) and Maharashtra, respectively. Other major Saka cities and centers include Jodhpur, Jaipur, Sialkot, Jalandar, Taxila, Moga, Ropar, Patiala, Batinda, Peshawar, Kabul. Peshawar and Mathura were the twin capital of the Kushana Sakas.
Let us discuss only about the sculpture, its artistic feature, dating etc., and do not get the issue diverted by bringing other current political issues.
I don't disagree much with these figures. So what? Jats are probably the most "Arya" race in modern day India and probaby the most "Sudroid" in Pakistan, whatever you mean by those terms. Gujjars are one of the more northwesterly people anyhow.
According to Ethnographers and historians like Cunningham, Todd, Ibbetson, Elliot, Ephilstone, Dahiya, Dhillon, Banerjea, etc., the agrarian and artisan communities (e.g. Jats, Gujars, Ahirs, Rajputs, Lohars, Tarkhans etc.) of the entire west are derived from the war-like Scythians who settled north-western and western South Asia in successive waves between 500 B.C. to 500 AD
Doesn't mean they're pure in the slightest. Just means that they might have had some Indo Aryan ancestry, which I don't deny for any in the more extreme northwest Indian regions.
Based on coins, inscriptions, archeology and early Indian/Buddhist/Chinese/Greek/Persian manuscripts dating back to 500 BC, historians and ethnographers since the 19th century (e.g. Cunningham, Tod, Rapson, Ibbetson, Elliot, Ephilstone, Dahiya, Dhillon, Banerjea, Sharma, Sinha, Puniya etc.) have shown that the traditional agrarian and artisan communities of the entire northwest (e.g. Jats, Gujars, Tarkhans, Khatris, Ghakkars, Rajputs, Awans, Khambos, Lohars, Yadavs, Ahirs, Meos, etc. including various BC groups) are descended from Scythian (or Saka) tribes of central Asia (an aggressive and expansionist old Iranian speaking culture) who settled western and north-western South Asia in successive waves between 5th century B.C. and 1st century AD. The capital-lion Saka inscriptions at Peshawar and Mathura state "Sarvasa Sakasthanasa puyae" (for the merit of the people of Sakasthana). Inscriptions and coins mentioning `Sakastan' are found all over the Saka core region of Rajasthan-Gujarat and surrounding tracts.
Coins, what a joke Probably because Northwest India was ruled from the Kushan Areas of in and around Pakistan that you got money found in the region of Rajasthan and Gujerat.
Ethnological information collected in colonial censuses shows that the majority (+65%) of the population of the west ("Sakasthan" including Rajasthan, Gujarat, northern Maharashtra, Punjab and western UP) is of Saka origin. Terms like "Sakasthana" and "Saka" appear on ancient Saka inscriptions and coins found as far as Mathura, Ujjain and Vidharba in western UP (former United Provinces), western MP (Malwa) and Maharashtra, respectively. Other major Saka cities and centers include Jodhpur, Jaipur, Sialkot, Jalandar, Taxila, Moga, Ropar, Patiala, Batinda, Peshawar, Kabul. Peshawar and Mathura were the twin capital of the Kushana Sakas.
What an absolute joke. Show me the evidence that this ethnologue information based on colonial censuses proves that Rajasthanis and Gujeratis are of Saka origin.
Know more About Gujars and Dont forget in the future:
Gurjars (Hindu) spare three surnames (Gotras) when getting married..
1. Own Gotra (Like mine is Harsana)
2. Mother's Gotra (like My Mother's Gotra before marriage was Bhosle)
3. Grandmother's Gotra (like my GrandMa's Gotra was Tongar)
Any one having any of these surnames will be considered brother or sister to me and no girl form these surnames will be eligible for marriage.....
I can imagine their disappointment. Doesnt this mean you are not pure in this case though?
Tell me how many castes do u know follow this practice.....????
I havent got a clue
Next time you talk about Gurjars or Gujjars Pls use respectable language..... Its a warning from a Pure Gurjar.....
Told you before about this. You're not pure anything, very few people are, and especially you, you don't even look Gujjar, according to the classifications you're putting up.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum