Vishnu idol found during excavation in Russian tow
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Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: History of the South Asian subcontinent
Forum Discription: The Indian sub-continent and South Central Asia
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Topic: Vishnu idol found during excavation in Russian tow
Posted By: Guests
Subject: Vishnu idol found during excavation in Russian tow
Date Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 03:12
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The following news appears to be interesting, as the archaeological evidences from Central Asia, China and other places yield evidences, which pint to the Indian influence at earlier periods: Vishnu idol found during excavation in Russian town
PTI | January 04, 2007 | 10:52 IST An ancient Vishnu idol has been found during excavation in an old village in Russia's Volga region, raising questions about the prevalent view on the origin of ancient Russia.
The idol found in Staraya (old) Maina village dates back to VII-X century AD. Staraya Maina village in Ulyanovsk region was a highly populated city 1700 years ago, much older than Kiev, so far believed to be the mother of all Russian cities. "We may consider it incredible, but we have ground to assert that Middle-Volga region was the original land of Ancient Rus. This is a hypothesis, but a hypothesis, which requires thorough research," Reader of Ulyanovsk State University's archaeology department Dr Alexander Kozhevin told state-run television Vesti. Dr Kozhevin, who has been working in Staraya Maina for last seven years, said that every single square metre of the surroundings of the ancient town situated on the banks of Samara, a tributary of Volga, is studded with antiques. Prior to unearthing of the Vishnu idol, Dr Kozhevin has already found ancient coins, pendants, rings and fragments of weapons. He believes that today's Staraya Maina, a town of eight thousand, was ten times more populated in the ancient times. It is from here that people started migrating to the Don and Dneiper rivers around the time ancient Russy built the city of Kiev, now the capital of Ukraine. An international conference is being organised later this year to study the legacy of the ancient village, which can radically change the history of ancient Russia. Can we take it as an evidence for "India" extending upto those areas or Indians were just living there to leave their artifacts and they are recovered now?
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Replies:
Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 03:49
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It could only be trade, India never extended that far north west.
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Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 03:56
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I'll give you one explanation. Aryans were followers of Vedism. Vishnu was a main Vedic God. The Aryans migrated from the Volga region to Pakistan 2000 years ago and brought with them statues of Vishnu, but forgot 1 back in the Volga. A couple of hundred years later, a small group of these Aryans decided to go to the Ganges and form a new religion called Hinduism. They retained Vishnu as one God and Indra of course, and generated some Dravidian Gods to please the Dravidian population. Then on AE, T Selvam decides to forget all history (like that Vedism was the pre Islamic religion along with Buddhism of ancient Pakistanis) and come up with a pan-Indic theory that ignores all historical events.
In other words "Indians" as we know them today never got outside of modern day India and definitely not up as far as the Volga, though the Vedic followers (ancient Pakistanis) might have been there - Pan Pakistanism.
------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 04:47
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"Vedic followers" is mentioned as "ancient Pakistanis" above. Would the learned writer enlighten me how, as it again appears to be based on the "Pakistan stolen history" type or otherwise.
Aurel Stein's collection displayed at the British museum exhibit many artifacts, manuscripts etc., which have Indian characteristic influence. Even in Chinise caves, there have been "Hindu" sculptures, though, the majority have been "BUddhist". In fact, during Buddhist missionary activities "Brahmanas and Shramanas" used to go together and many times, non-Indian documents mention them as same, as they were coming from India. The case is with South-east Asian countries.
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Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 13:20
Look on a map. Find Pakistan. the ancestors of those people that inhabit that area (excluding full migrants) were the ancient Pakistanis. It's pretty simple. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 13:58
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Chinese and Buddhist connections with places of learning in the sub- continent are widespread. Consider the universities of Taxila 700BC in ancient times. ------------- |
Posted By: K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2007 at 08:12
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1. The news is interesting!
2. The arguement that "ancient Pakistanis" (sic) are (or were) "Vedic" followers is more interesting!!
3. It makes me to rember one person, who read a paper in one session of IHC (I think Bhopal), hypothesizing that "Ayodhya" is in Afghanistan!!!
4. Does "Chinese and Buddhist connections are widespread in the sub-contient" (Malizai) means that the sub-continent includes China also or areas upto China? Are you referring to "Greater India" of historians?
------------- History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past. |
Posted By: K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2007 at 08:14
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Incidentally, what happened to my photo? instead, a figure with ? is apearing! ------------- History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past. |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2007 at 08:43
Roman artifacts found in India, does that mean that Rome extended into India? I don't think so. Don't underestimate the fluidity of culture that trade creates. ------------- |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 05:01
We had problems with the server in the middle of december, many peoples avatars were lost and needed to be reloaded. ------------- |
Posted By: K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 10:46
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Zagros fails to note the evidences of Aurel Stein found as has already been poiinted out above. Incidentally, TeldeInduz gives his own interpretation How Zagros would react to it? ------------- History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2007 at 02:43
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TeldeInduz: Then'll give you one explanation. Aryans were followers of Vedism. Vishnu was a main Vedic God. The Aryans migrated from the Volga region to Pakistan 2000 years ago and brought with them statues of Vishnu, but forgot 1 back in the Volga.
> Suppose, if one more idol opf Vishnu is found, he would change his mathematics? Then, Pakistanis are Aryans?
T: A couple of hundred years later, a small group of these Aryans decided to go to the Ganges and form a new religion called Hinduism.
> That the same "Aryans", that too, "a small group" decided to come to Ganges and form a new religion 1800 years back (2000-200=1800) is quite amusing!
T: They retained Vishnu as one God and Indra of course, and generated some Dravidian Gods to please the Dravidian population.
> According one arguement, the "aryns" who came from Central Asia were the creators of IVC, would TeldeInduz accept it?
T: Then on AE, T Selvam decides to forget all history (like that Vedism was the pre Islamic religion along with Buddhism of ancient Pakistanis) and come up with a pan-Indic theory that ignores all historical events.
> As on 1947 and even before 1947, Islam was there in undivided India. That means, you can very well claim that Vedic religion was pre-islamic even in India, when the Muslims were ruling from the Lodhis to Moghuls.
T: In other words "Indians" as we know them today never got outside of modern day India and definitely not up as far as the Volga, though the Vedic followers (ancient Pakistanis) might have been there - Pan Pakistanism.
> This purely his imagination leading to make such surmise.
If Pakistanis claim that they follow Vedic religion, it is very good indeed. Then, the Hindus of India should envy Pakistanis for their sincereity. By the way how the Vedism / Vedic religion / Sanskrit / etc., are promoted in Pakistan, as the Pakistanis have been so fond of "Vedism"?
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Posted By: chimera
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2007 at 04:39
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The polar region was known to early writers.
"These descriptions provide us with adequate information about the explicit astronomical identity of the nine stars, called as Dhruva, Arundhathi & saptha Rishis's. Figure 19, 20 and 21 illustrate Load Star Pro views of the 'Ursa major', with zoom in to 'Vasishta-Arundhati' pair. This constellation is known in Northern Hemisphere as rotating around the pole star Polaris."
Mount Meru is firstly the north pole, then symbolically is in the Pamirs north of Pakistan. The centre of Brahmins' world is between Russia and India.
chimera
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Posted By: K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2007 at 05:59
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I think, Chimera has been very hasty in posting: 1. I do not know what Chimera is referring to quote from some unspecified secondary source. 2. The mention of “polar region” appears to be mystifying. 3. What are those 19, 20 and 21 figures? 4. Kindly give the reference. 5. I do not understand what he/she wants to convey by saying that, “ The centre of Brahmins' world is between ------------- History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past. |
Posted By: chimera
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2007 at 15:45
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The quote is from
www.vedicastronomy.net/stars_appendix.htm - 38k
To identify Meru with the north Pole, Brahmins must have been familiar with the northern lands to observe Ursa Major stars rotating around Polaris star. When they selected the Pamirs as the land of symbolic Meru as world centre, then Brahmins must have been nearby as they saw themselves as the centre of faith. One of Meru's rivers flowed to the north. In Russian Tsar times, a Hindu temple was at Baku on the Caspian. Probably, the Sarmatian-Scythians and northern Kamboj were a branch of Brahmin faith, who supported Indra and Danu against the Brahmin Vritra naga. The western "river" from Meru became Zoroastrian, but in the east in Sinkiang China, the Tocharians knew "brahmn.kte" as Brahma. Danu went west to Ireland, and south to Bali Indonesia.
chimera
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Posted By: K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2007 at 19:24
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1. I note that you are located in antartica. Were you in Arctic, then, you could have argued following Tilak! 2. It is evident that you want to emphasize too much for “Brahmins”, but there have been non-Brahmins who composed Vedic texts. In fact, there are women to in composing such Vedic texts. Therefore, harping on “Brahmins”, what you try to drive at? 3. The European writers repeatedly used the word “Brahman / Brahmin / Brahminical” as adjective for everything – brahmanical religion, brahmianical faith, brahminical science and so on, but, there are no such things. 4. Which “Meru”, you are talking about – cosmological, geographical, astronomical or otherwise? 5. By saying that Brahmins spread like that, can you say all who held such ideas or religious tenets in those parts of the world follow “Brahmanism”? ------------- History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past. |
Posted By: chimera
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2007 at 16:33
Actually I'm in Australia which claims territory in Antarctica. This topic is about Vishnu in Russia, so I connect those by Brahmin history. I wrote that Meru was seen as north Pole, and symbolically as being in Pamir.
In Sinkiang China:
http://www.indoeuropean.nl/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=leiden&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Cie%5Ctoch&first=501 - A dictionary of Tocharian B [Adams] : Query result
In Russia:(quote)
"This subject is very important to us.” I promised him that I will send a copy of the book to him after I returned to Bombay.
Now in the office of the Society, we decided that I should first visit Baku’s Atash Kadeh and then at about 8 P. M. I should give a lecture to the Society members whoever can attend. Two specific subjects were decided for my lecture. One about the Parsees and the other about the Ancient History of the Hun people. After that, these noble people escorted me in two cars to visit Baku’s Atash Kadeh.
Surkhani
The Atash Kadeh was in a place called Surkhani on the road from Baku about 30 to 45 minutes by car... Not just me but any Parsee who is a little familiar with our Hindu brethren’s religion, their temples and their customs, after examining this building with its inscriptions, architecture, etc., would conclude that this is not a Parsee Atash Kadeh but is a Hindu Temple, whose Brahmins (priests) used to worship fire (Sanskrit: Agni)."(end quote). Brahmins' god Danu is the DNieper, Dneister,Don and DANUbe rivers._John Koch. Advanced Welsh Studies.U.Wales.
Persian/Sanskrit "braman(i)ya" means "religiously", Brahma<IE brih "praise".
Old Swedish "bram" means "state.pomp" >OEnglish "breme" is "high.famous.noble". Scythians and Sarmatians followed Danu who with Indra killed Vritra , a Brahmin. Thus some Russians were a branch of Brahminism
but they split from Vedic India and evidently kept only part of that faith.
chimera |
Posted By: K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2007 at 21:10
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Thank you, it is interesting. May I know what you are doing, what is your background etc., just to know in the context to proceed further effectively in the subject matter. What is the book which is about the subject matter? As you point out that “some Russians were a branch of Brahmanism, but they split from Vedic \ Who were the Russians part of a branch of Brahmanism? \ When they split from “the Vedic India”? \ What exactly you mean by “Vedic India”? \ If “they kept only part of that faith”, do you suggest that the “Vishnu idol” found is attributed to them? I am asking the details to know more from you, as you appear to be very knowledgeable in the subject matter. ------------- History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past. |
Posted By: chimera
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2007 at 23:16
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Hi Ramakrishna,
I'm pleased to have the discussion. This is the book, sorry about the font-size. (quote)
My Travels Outside Bombay
Iran, Azerbaijan, Baku By Ervad Shams-Ul-Ulama Dr. Sir Jivanji Jamshedji Modi B. A., Ph. D. C. I. E. (1854-1933) Translated by Soli Dastur, copyright © 2004. Used with permission. Photographs by Sarosh Manekshaw copyright © 1993, 1995. Used with permission. Additional photographs of the Qala-e Duxtar by Mr. Farroukh Isfandzadeh, copyright © 2004. Used with permission. Introduction by Soli DasturThis book written in Gujarati by Dr. Modi was published in 1926 describing his extensive travels from Mumbai to Aden to Africa, Europe, Russia, Iran, Iraq, Karachi, and back to Bombay in 1925. His major objective was to travel to all these places in search of clues about Zoroastrian civilization which was spread in many dynasties from Europe to China and all the way south to India, ending with the Sassanian Dynasty’s glorious empire destroyed by Arabs in 7th century". (end quote)
Fire Temple of BakuFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia(Redirected from http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Atashgah&redirect=no - Atashgah )
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fire_Temple_of_Baku&action=edit§ion=1 - edit ] Temple descriptionInscriptions in the temple in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit - Sanskrit (in Nagari http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devanagari - Devanagari script) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjabi - Punjabi (in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurmukhi - Gurmukhi script) identify the sanctity as a place of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism - Hindu or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh - Sikh worship. These inscriptions date from Samvat 1725 to Samvat 1873, which though unambiguous references to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_calendar - Hindu calendar , cannot be precisely dated since there is more than one Samvat calendar. Samvat 1725 could thus be either c. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1646 - 1646 CE or c. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1782 - 1782 CE . According to Abraham Valentine Williams, the Punjabi language inscriptions are quotations from the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adi_Granth - Adi Granth . The Sanskrit ones are from the Sati Sri Ganesaya namah, invoke http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganesha - Ganesha , and state that the shrine was built for Jwalaji, the flame-faced goddess Jwalamukhi, of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangra_District - Kangra district in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himachal_Pradesh - Himachal Pradesh , India."(end quote). This is not proof of Hinduism in Russia, but is evidence of religious contact north of Pamirs. Iranian Sarmatians, related to Scythians, were in the Ural mountain to Caspian sea region 4th centBCE. Possibly they had a tribal religion with Brahmin influence, with variations so that Danu or Shiva or Vishnu were also their gods, in some places. By "Vedic India" I meant the standard Brahmin faith of the Vedas at that early time. I believe that IndoEuropean language was a way to express religious and political ideas which were part of the heritage of all IE cultures across Eurasia. As languages diverge over time, so do religious traditions, but the basic customs can still be seen. Do you agree up to this point? If so, I will go on further.
chimera |
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Posted By: chimera
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2007 at 23:17
| wow, that text got messed up |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 05:16
I don't see how anything dating from the 1646/1782 sheds anylight on conditions in the 4th centuary BC. ------------- |
Posted By: chimera
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 15:26
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The Silk Route was there and Buddhism was moving north. Tocharian texts in Brahmi script are from 5thcent BCE. Scythians who moved west already had Danu river-goddess of Brahmins in 8thcent BCE. and the related Sarmatians were moving north to Ural mountains of Russia. The Church did not appear there until after 11th cent CE.
chimera
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Posted By: K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 20:15
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G. Bongard Levin has done work on it. “The Image of India” is with me containing pictures of artifacts from Hadda, Kara-tepe, Toprak-kala, Adzhina-tepe, Penijikent, Afreasiab, Khalchayan, Fayaz-tepe, Dalverzin-tepe, Adzhine-tepe, etc. Of course, Kazakasjan site gives some details. Kindly give me references, if you come across more evidences from Interestingly, the attempt of some travelers going to the north pole to find out its magnetic nature is interesting in the context, as they must have crossed these places. Chet Van Duzer though finds the similarities between the ”Invento fortunate”, he refuses the Indian influence on it- see “The Mythic Geography of the I have taken your point, but the “Brahmin factor” is intriguing and you have not answered by querries.
------------- History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past. |
Posted By: chimera
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2007 at 17:19
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"May I know what you are doing, what is your background etc., just to know in the context to proceed further effectively in the subject matter." My interest is IE Eurasia, and west Asian influence on Celts. I read widely and join forums to find info. "What is the book which is about the subject matter?" -That's the one I posted above. As you point out that “some Russians were a branch of Brahmanism, but they split from Vedic \ Who were the Russians part of a branch of Brahmanism? \ When they split from “the Vedic India”? \ What exactly you mean by “Vedic India”? \ If “they kept only part of that faith”, do you suggest that the “Vishnu idol” found is attributed to them? -Different possibilities may explain the Vishnu of the Volga. Its existence indicates that at least it was known in Russia. I |
Posted By: K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2007 at 04:12
 Photo from www.edgarlowen.com With difficulty, I could get the photo. I would like to to get comments. I do not know how they dated.
Also available in:
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2007/01/04/harevishnu.shtml - http://www.mosnews.com/news/2007/01/04/harevishnu.shtml
------------- History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past. |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2007 at 06:30
LOL. Please read up on the history and origins of Brahminism
India was never Vedic. Pakistan was. Saying Pakistan will avoid confusion and the misrepresentation of history. Vedic Pakistan is more accurate.
------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: chimera
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2007 at 19:38
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As I wrote above, the Scythians had Danu river-goddess, who with Indra killed Vritra, a Brahmin. Sarmatians who reached Ural mountains were closely related to Scythian culture. The European split with Brahmins produced the "DANUbe" river, and Danaan of Ireland, where traditional law, music and linga sculpture is similar to old India. At that time, "Pakistan" was not widely used for the "Punjab", but Vedic "India" fits that time.
chimera
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Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2007 at 19:48
Your Brahmin theory is wrong, but that's not important.
Whilst Pakistan was not used for the Punjab, or Sindh what was used (and indeed what the Vedicers themselves called their land) was not India, but Sapta Sindhu. By saying Vedic India, the ill informed reader gets a complete misrepresentation of history.
Vedic Sapta Sindhu, Vedic Pakistan are clear and accurate names for the region being referred to. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: chimera
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2007 at 20:06
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What is the correct Brahmin theory?
Every text-book on the subject I have seen , refers to "India". What would the "uninformed reader" make of "Sapta Sindu"?
chimera
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Posted By: M. Nachiappan
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 00:42
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Already, there is a entry / forum "Pakistan stolen history" in which the topic raised by TendelInduz has raised.
I think, here, the subject should be restricted to the finding of the Vishnu idol.
In fact, they are not answering to the questions raised in that column.
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Posted By: M. Nachiappan
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 00:50
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The web says, "The idol found in Staraya (old) Maina village dates back to VII-X century AD. Staraya Maina village in
But, the style, as the art histiorians and archaeologists used to go by such comparison, it appears that it might resemble "mathura" or "Gandhara" style. Thus, it could be dated to c.3rd century BCE also.
Therefore, expert opinion is required in this matter.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 03:22
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The dating of sculptures based on style can be an accurated method?
Suppose, if sculptures are made, today, and circulated as "art dealers" or "smuggglers", can historians and archaeologists accept the dating based on style?
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Posted By: chimera
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 05:27
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It is said that details in a forgery often are incorrect.
If the Kamboj and Scythians were "degraded kshatriyas" who failed to honour Brahmins, then they were in contact with Brahminism.That takes the culture into Iranian territory, which is not far from the Volga river.
chimera
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Posted By: ashokharsana
Date Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 00:29
Hello Chimera,
I request everyone to not to confuse the modern boundaries of India and Iran with the Vedic Indian boundaries.
In earlier times, Iran was a part of India only. It was called Arya Dveep, Shak Dveep or Scythia. All the Aryans of Vedic India came from Iran and southern Russia (Georgia). Their nasal Idex prove that they were a caucasian race and were leptoherrine.
The Modern North Indian races specially Gurjars, Jats and Rajputs are pure Aryan or Sycthian:
That means Vedic India consisted of:
Modern India,
Modern Pak,
Modern Afghanistan,
Modern Iran
and Modern Georgia
(particularly the area around Caspian Sea (bahr-e-Khizar) which is called Kashyap Sagar in Hindu Books, Named after a very famous Rishi of vedic India "Kashyap Rishi" who was the first ever architect of the world to make a city Named "KashyapMeer" or modern Kashmeer)
Regards
Ashok Harsana ------------- The Real Ranas, The Real Emperors of India. http://ashokharsana.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=gurjars |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 00:55
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Ashok, Dont embarass yourself anymore, you havent even read the book that you supposedly believe in and are making commentary on it.
Rig Veda is very clear on where the homeland of the Vedic Aryans was. The names of the places, the names of the rivers were described in detail in the Vedic text, hardly any of them went past East Afghanistan, and they didnt go past Western Uttar Pradesh or Eastern Punjab. Take a look at this map, and you can see the West fringe of the Ganga and Jamna Rivers formed the Eastern most mentioned rivers of the Rig veda, and the Western fringes of the Vedic places were in West Pakistan and East Afghanistan. Vedism is/was not an Indian religion. It was an ancient Pakistani religion that was simply accepted by those Indians from the Gangetic plains.
The notion of Gujarrs being pure anything is just stupid. Gujjars are hardly pure anything, people North in Sindh or Punjab, Pakistan would be purer whatever it is you're saying purer to be. You're also confusing Aryan and Scythian, lol. This forum and Scythian wannabees
  ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 01:04
Actually that map isn't correct for the current day boundaries..all of Kashmir is shown as part of India  . But you get the idea of whereabout the Vedic civiliation existed. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: ashokharsana
Date Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 11:26
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Hi Telde,
I like your way, You create a world of your own fantasies where you are everyone..The story teller, the listener and the believer...But trust me everyone on this forum know that u r not doing anyhting but onlymaking a fool of yourself.......
Brother..U must not put your nose into a topic where u dont have anything to prove (Apart from providing the useless Map u provided)
Come out of your world and see what i am posting hereunder...
Race Nasal Index Nasal Type
Arya (Indo-Aryan)
Brahman (Bengal) 70.3 fine-nosed sub-leptorrhine Rajput 71.6 fine-nosed sub-leptorrhine Gujjar 66.9 fine-nosed leptorrhine Vaisya (Jat) 68.8 fine-nosed leptorrhine
Vaisya (Bania) 79.6 medium-nosed mesorrhine (by mistake I worte jats as more leptoherrine, Actually Gujjars have the longest nose)
Sudroid Dravidian (Kadian) 89.8 broad-nosed platyrrhine Dalit (Chamar) 86.0 broad-nosed platyrrhine Adivasi (Munda) 89.9 broad-nosed platyrrhine Vedic Shudrs (Dom) 83.0 broad-nosed sub-platyrrhine According to Ethnographers and historians like Cunningham, Todd, Ibbetson, Elliot, Ephilstone, Dahiya, Dhillon, Banerjea, etc., the agrarian and artisan communities (e.g. Jats, Gujars, Ahirs, Rajputs, Lohars, Tarkhans etc.) of the entire west are derived from the war-like Scythians who settled north-western and western South Asia in successive waves between 500 B.C. to 500 AD
http://www.punjabilok.com/land/origin_of_saka_race1.htm - http://www.punjabilok.com/land/origin_of_saka_race1.htm
Based on coins, inscriptions, archeology and early Indian/Buddhist/Chinese/Greek/Persian manuscripts dating back to 500 BC, historians and ethnographers since the 19th century (e.g. Cunningham, Tod, Rapson, Ibbetson, Elliot, Ephilstone, Dahiya, Dhillon, Banerjea, Sharma, Sinha, Puniya etc.) have shown that the traditional agrarian and artisan communities of the entire northwest (e.g. Jats, Gujars, Tarkhans, Khatris, Ghakkars, Rajputs, Awans, Khambos, Lohars, Yadavs, Ahirs, Meos, etc. including various BC groups) are descended from Scythian (or Saka) tribes of central Asia (an aggressive and expansionist old Iranian speaking culture) who settled western and north-western South Asia in successive waves between 5th century B.C. and 1st century AD. The capital-lion Saka inscriptions at Peshawar and Mathura state "Sarvasa Sakasthanasa puyae" (for the merit of the people of Sakasthana). Inscriptions and coins mentioning `Sakastan' are found all over the Saka core region of Rajasthan-Gujarat and surrounding tracts. Ethnological information collected in colonial censuses shows that the majority (+65%) of the population of the west ("Sakasthan" including Rajasthan, Gujarat, northern Maharashtra, Punjab and western UP) is of Saka origin. Terms like "Sakasthana" and "Saka" appear on ancient Saka inscriptions and coins found as far as Mathura, Ujjain and Vidharba in western UP (former United Provinces), western MP (Malwa) and Maharashtra, respectively. Other major Saka cities and centers include Jodhpur, Jaipur, Sialkot, Jalandar, Taxila, Moga, Ropar, Patiala, Batinda, Peshawar, Kabul. Peshawar and Mathura were the twin capital of the Kushana Sakas. http://www.punjabilok.com/land/origin_of_saka_race1.htm - http://www.punjabilok.com/land/origin_of_saka_race1.htm
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/jhome/38641 -
Know more About Gujars and Dont forget in the future:
Gurjars (Hindu) spare three surnames (Gotras) when getting married..
1. Own Gotra (Like mine is Harsana)
2. Mother's Gotra (like My Mother's Gotra before marriage was Bhosle)
3. Grandmother's Gotra (like my GrandMa's Gotra was Tongar)
Any one having any of these surnames will be considered brother or sister to me and no girl form these surnames will be eligible for marriage.....
Tell me how many castes do u know follow this practice.....????
Next time you talk about Gurjars or Gujjars Pls use respectable language..... Its a warning from a Pure Gurjar.....
Regards
Ashok Harsana
------------- The Real Ranas, The Real Emperors of India. http://ashokharsana.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=gurjars |
Posted By: M. Nachiappan
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 03:25
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Friends,
Let us discuss only about the sculpture, its artistic feature, dating etc., and do not get the issue diverted by bringing other current political issues.
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Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 03:39
I don't disagree much with these figures. So what? Jats are probably the most "Arya" race in modern day India and probaby the most "Sudroid" in Pakistan, whatever you mean by those terms. Gujjars are one of the more northwesterly people anyhow.
Doesn't mean they're pure in the slightest. Just means that they might have had some Indo Aryan ancestry, which I don't deny for any in the more extreme northwest Indian regions.
Coins, what a joke
 Probably because Northwest India was ruled from the Kushan Areas of in and around Pakistan that you got money found in the region of Rajasthan and Gujerat.
What an absolute joke. Show me the evidence that this ethnologue information based on colonial censuses proves that Rajasthanis and Gujeratis are of Saka origin.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/jhome/38641 -
I can imagine their disappointment. Doesnt this mean you are not pure in this case though?
I havent got a clue
Told you before about this. You're not pure anything, very few people are, and especially you, you don't even look Gujjar, according to the classifications you're putting up. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: ashokharsana
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 22:10
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He he he.. You are really expert in changing your own statements..thats all I can say... ------------- The Real Ranas, The Real Emperors of India. http://ashokharsana.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=gurjars |
Posted By: chimera
Date Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 08:11
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Ashok, "That means Vedic India consisted of:
Modern India,
Modern Pak,
Modern Afghanistan,
Modern Iran
and Modern Georgia
(particularly the area around Caspian Sea (bahr-e-Khizar) which is called Kashyap Sagar in Hindu Books, Named after a very famous Rishi of vedic India "Kashyap Rishi" who was the first ever architect of the world to make a city Named "KashyapMeer" or modern Kashmeer)".
That is a very significant statement, which I am trying to understand.
It has meaning for Hurrians, Scythians and Cimmerians, and then for eastern Europe Greeks and Celts. Thank you.
chimera
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Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 16:14
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Is it not possible that Vedism might have been the way of life of a small minority in the outlying areas, and the way of life of the majority in the hub of Vedic Civilization? Somewhat similar to how we have Iran as the hub of Shiism today but little pockets of Shiism in settlements in Iraq[souther iraq] North India[lucknow] and Pakistan[karachi, baltistan]. The Majority relgion might have been something other than Vedism in both Iran and Bharat/India but could have been the majority religion in Northern Pakistan and Eastern Afghanistan 2500 years ago but the minority relgion in Northern India and the Caspian area/West Afghanistan. |
Posted By: chimera
Date Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 16:22
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Yes. Another possibility is the example of Sikhs who combine Islam with Hindu. Zoroaster reformed the Vedic Iranian tradition . And the Catholic Church combined Christian and Roman/Greek traditions. It may be that Vedic teachings were combined with nomadic Scythian tradition, with some of them following Vedas more closely.
chimera
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Posted By: M. Nachiappan
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 03:47
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Mr. Ashok, I want clarification for the following points:
1. About the interpretation of "Caspian sea" with "Khasyapa". 2. Do such philological or etymological interpretation hold good always in all contexts? 3. Do you believe in "race theory", when, the scientists themselves discarded it? Do you remember how Max Mueller retracted his "Aryan hypothesis / theory"? 4. In the context, how you deal with "Aryans" ad "Dravidians"? |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 05:12
Could say that. Vedism was the main pre Islamic Pakistani religion, Zoroastrianism for Iran, and Hinduism would be the equivalent in "India" I suppose. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: M. Nachiappan
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 06:09
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I do not know why you harp on this point again and again. By claiming that "Vedism was the main pre Islamic religion", what you want to achieve?
After 1947, what has been the position of such "Vedism" followed by the Pakistanis with all their pride?
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 00:54
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hahahah if tell to someone from afghanistan iran or russia he will laugh the crap out of you, indias boundries going so far
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Posted By: K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 18:58
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I do not think you are serious in the subject matter Mr. aarararararar etc. Be sincere in our postings when deal with issues in the context.
If you cannot argue properly, you can keep quite, instead making such comments, because, what is appearing here are seen or read by many and we will get exposed what we express. ------------- History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past. |
Posted By: Hick
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 22:21
| are u kidding me? man you guys make me laugh, where do you get these articles from which have no credible sources. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 26-Oct-2007 at 12:36
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Oh. what happened?
My posting has been hijacked.
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Posted By: ashokharsana
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 06:34
Thats a point everyone has to agree upon.
Migrants, Traders and travellers who carried their language and culture alongwith could also carry these idols (artifacts) or at least the art of making these Idols. ------------- The Real Ranas, The Real Emperors of India. http://ashokharsana.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=gurjars |
Posted By: MarcoPolo
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2007 at 18:33
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A few years back, I had some marble figurines of various ancient Samurai given to me by a friend of mine from Japan which when playing, the children in the house broke and buried it in the back yard . So I guess in a few years from now, someone might come across it and lay claim that Japanese are the progenitors of my area with perhaps Shinto-ism being our forefathers ancient belief!@?
lol!
Im sorry to say, that what this article is insinuating is utter falsehood/fantasy!. Some of the sources of these articles are quite dubious and their seems to be an attempt to distort the true history of the region by claiming that gangetic indian culture spread North and West which is entirely innacurrate and a distortion of history as well as facts.
What is known and proven, is that Tamil culture from the Southern tip of the state of india (around the state of Tamil Nadu) spread East and South to parts of South East Asia(eg.. Cambodia, Malaysia etc.. )
Gangetic India was never an ''exporter'' of culture, rather quite the opposite, many would say that it was an ''adopter'' / ''hijacker'' of cultures due to the prevailing shame that many gangetic indians had(many would argue this trait still continues hence the posting of such absurb articles and posts on a regular basis) with the arrival foreigners be they Aryan or what not and the subsequent class distinction and seperation of ''colours''(vernas)- (later to develop into hinduism) that they imposed in order to seperate themselves from the people(s) there. This in essence established a formal system of class distinction and the resultant social and pathological problems associated with it on the people involved.
Gangetic indians where always quick to adopt the ways of outsiders(Iranic, Trans Indus aka Pakistani, Afghans/Bactrian etc.. and concoct 'more socially acceptable'' lineages in an attempt to improve their social standings as well as stature vis-a-vis hinduism and their regions social dynamic. This process appears to be continuing as the caste system of seperation and the barriers it forms for people(s) belonging to apparently ''lower classes'' is still practised in the modern day republic of india and often trancends religious boundaries. Infact, in recent years, many of Gangetic india's Christians and Muslims have continued the legacy of their ethnic cousins and often fabricate foreign lineages to improve their lineages when in reality many simply converted into the more egalitarian montheistic religions of Christianity and Islam. Its such a shame that people in this day and age are being taught to be ashamed of their roots especially in this era of multiculturalism.
What is known is that Russia had various ethnic groups (Scythians, Vikings, Finno-Ugric peoples, Turkic and later Slavic peoples just to name a few!), one often overrunning the other and over time a common culture developed particularly in and around the region of modern day Moscow which began to excise considerable power in the area and over ran the war-like Tribes such as the Tatars. They would later begin to form the modern Russian state and the development of a common Russian culture and language. Being at the crossroads and in possession of lands involved in the ancient Silk Route and international trade, a considerable amount of goods, merchandise, slaves etc.. criss cross its path. So much international trade and foreign exotic items traversed its path.
I would hope that moderators and All Empire Forum members would hold to a higher standard and encourage more accurate and FACTUAL discussions/postings rather than propogating false claims particularly of a system of class dicrimination which delegates people as being inferior/superior which I believe we all should reject.
Despite it all, I did get a good ''chuckle'' when I first read this post!! lol! but seriously guys/gals, lets stick to factual history!
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