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Rise of Islam

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rise of Islam
    Posted: 18-Dec-2004 at 19:59

Just how were the early Muslims able to topple Sassanid Persia and pretty much everything else?

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  Quote Christscrusader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2004 at 20:03
Will to fight and the weakness of areas they conquered.
Heaven helps those, who help themselves.
-Jc
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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2004 at 11:18

Originally posted by Christscrusader

Will to fight and the weakness of areas they conquered.

Yes, but the Byzantines, and the Sassanids? Those were not weak states at all.

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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2004 at 12:39

Originally posted by Christscrusader

Will to fight and the weakness of areas they conquered.

they were not weak

so typical of western  to undermine such eastern POWER

Alexander the "Great"  couldn't controle India,  Arabs did ( the Arab General was a teenager  younger than Alex)

Alexander the "Great" couldn't reach China,    Arabs did

 

and that was done in 1 to 2 years with taking spain too.

 

 

 



Edited by azimuth
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2004 at 13:54

Arabs didnt reach China they reached its protectorate, and Islam was introduced to India by Turks, not Arabs.

Arab sucess has to do with skilled generalship and that Sassanids and Byzantium had just concluded a very destructive war.

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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2004 at 14:06

I copied the following from Wikipedia

 

With the ascent of al-Walid I, Hajjaj's reputation grew due to his selection and deployment of numerous successful generals who expanded the Islamic empire. Hajjaj was given these powers due to his high status in the Umayyad government, and he exhibited a lot of control over the provinces that he governed.

Among these generals was the teen-aged Muhammad bin Qasim, who in 712 was sent to Sindh in India. Compared to his general Hajjaj was more hardline insisting that pagans (or those who were not people of the book) be killed or enslaved.

Qutaibah bin Muslim was sent to conquer Turkestan which he did, even penetrating the borders of China and getting a tribute payment from the Chinese emperor. Perhaps his most successful general was Musa bin Nusair who consolidated control over North Africa and who sent Tariq bin Ziyad to invade Spain.

 

those were arabs not turkish

 

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  Quote Berosus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2004 at 19:24
The Byzantines and the Persians wore themselves out in their bloodiest war, which lasted 25 years (603-628), and ended just before the Arabs burst onto the world scene.  And then the Persians followed that up with a four-year civil war, between Kavadh II and Yazdegerd III.  That's why today's Zoroastrians use a calendar that counts years from 632 A.D.; they are marking the coronation of Yazdegerd, the last king who followed their creed.
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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2004 at 00:24

 

still persia was not weak

 

 

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  Quote Christscrusader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2005 at 19:36
Originally posted by azimuth

Originally posted by Christscrusader

Will to fight and the weakness of areas they conquered.

they were not weak

so typical of western  to undermine such eastern POWER

Alexander the "Great"  couldn't controle India,  Arabs did ( the Arab General was a teenager  younger than Alex)

Alexander the "Great" couldn't reach China,    Arabs did

 

and that was done in 1 to 2 years with taking spain too.

How long did it take the Arabs to reach China? When did Arabs  control India? Wasn't it the turks? Alexander is one man, and I guess he must be pretty important if u need to compare a WHOLE group of people up to him.

Heaven helps those, who help themselves.
-Jc
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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2005 at 23:41
Originally posted by Christscrusader

How long did it take the Arabs to reach China? When did Arabs  control India? Wasn't it the turks? Alexander is one man, and I guess he must be pretty important if u need to compare a WHOLE group of people up to him.

since you dont read the rest of the posts i will repeat what i posted earlier

I copied the following from Wikipedia

 

With the ascent of al-Walid I, Hajjaj's reputation grew due to his selection and deployment of numerous successful generals who expanded the Islamic empire. Hajjaj was given these powers due to his high status in the Umayyad government, and he exhibited a lot of control over the provinces that he governed.

Among these generals was the teen-aged Muhammad bin Qasim, who in 712 was sent to Sindh in India. Compared to his general Hajjaj was more hardline insisting that pagans (or those who were not people of the book) be killed or enslaved.

Qutaibah bin Muslim was sent to conquer Turkestan which he did, even penetrating the borders of China and getting a tribute payment from the Chinese emperor. Perhaps his most successful general was Musa bin Nusair who consolidated control over North Africa and who sent Tariq bin Ziyad to invade Spain.

 

those were arabs not turkish

 

also Alexander is one man and this one man wont be able to do anything without something called ARMY with more than 40000 men so my comparison doesnt make him that much important ( he is more important to Europeans and Westerners but not to Arabs) it is a Comparison between two Armies

also alexander's army was a nation army while the Army sent to india was just part of the Islamic armies who were speread in the west and the east Conquering every directions.

so to compare Alexander and His Army with one part of Ummayad Empire army makes that Group of people more important than Alexander's Empire's Army.

 

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  Quote Christscrusader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2005 at 16:36
Originally posted by azimuth

Originally posted by Christscrusader

How long did it take the Arabs to reach China? When did Arabs  control India? Wasn't it the turks? Alexander is one man, and I guess he must be pretty important if u need to compare a WHOLE group of people up to him.

 

 ( he is more important to Europeans and Westerners but not to Arabs) it is a Comparison between two Armies

 

I can assure you, any Scholar, western or not, can appreciate alexanders conquests. (unless they have some problems)

Heaven helps those, who help themselves.
-Jc
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2005 at 18:25

I'm going to have to agree with Christcrusader with this.  Hellenistic culture influenced Indian architecture- which got transmitted to rest of asia via Buddhism.  So its quite interesting to see how 40000 men changed the artistic style of a continent. 

Even if someone defeats others in battle, soon or later, it will degenerate into another fairy tale about a brave knight.  But art, lives forever. 

Grrr..
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2005 at 14:15
sow aht? Islamic architecture spreads from Spain to Indonesia and from Africa to Russian Tatarstan province and Chinese Xinjiang province, how far did Hellenism spread?
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  Quote Christscrusader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2005 at 19:07
how LONG did it take for that? quite longer than hellenisism.
Heaven helps those, who help themselves.
-Jc
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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2005 at 23:06
Originally posted by Temujin

sow aht? Islamic architecture spreads from Spain to Indonesia and from Africa to Russian Tatarstan province and Chinese Xinjiang province, how far did Hellenism spread?



Actually, what is today is labeled as Islamic architecture is derived from Sassanid domed architecture which was adapted by Muslims. It really has nothing to do with Arab conquerers.




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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2005 at 00:29

Originally posted by Christscrusader

how LONG did it take for that? quite longer than hellenisism.

much less than the Hellenisisim

from year 708 AD to 714 AD  north africa, spain, north india and big part of centeral asia were taken.

 

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  Quote Faran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2005 at 13:12
Originally posted by Miller

Originally posted by Temujin

sow aht? Islamic architecture spreads from Spain to Indonesia and from Africa to Russian Tatarstan province and Chinese Xinjiang province, how far did Hellenism spread?



Actually, what is today is labeled as Islamic architecture is derived from Sassanid domed architecture which was adapted by Muslims. It really has nothing to do with Arab conquerers.




 

I would say it has alot to do with Muslims, though Islamic architecture is derived from Persian architecture.  Islam basically changed Arabs from one of the most savage to the one of the most advanced people in the world.  They obviously adopted elements of nearby civilizations since they had less civilization of their own (at first), but Pre-Islamic Persia would have known nothing of the splendour of the great Muslim architects.  But I think it is correct to say that Persia was largely to the calliphates what Greece and Rome were to later Europeans.

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  Quote Infidel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2005 at 04:19

Originally posted by Temujin

sow aht? Islamic architecture spreads from Spain to Indonesia and from Africa to Russian Tatarstan province and Chinese Xinjiang province, how far did Hellenism spread?

Hellenism isn't just about architecture. And if one must recognize and cherish the muslim heritage to the world, one must also honestly agree that the greek heritage is unsurmountable.

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  Quote JasSum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2005 at 05:34
persia was week at that time.
Arabs had a great luck to find neigbours at their worst standings.

And they spread in places that were runing away from byzant becaue of the herretic movemants (egypt, ermenia)
So they would rahter had islam over them than the ortodox empire. (maybe because islam was closer to their belives, and maybe they were just stubborn)
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  Quote Artaxiad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2005 at 16:07

The Byzantine Empire was oppressing non-Orthodox Christians, including the Coptic Egyptians, Apostolic Armenians, and Assyrians. Maybe that's why they would rather have seemingly tolerant Arabs as their rulers, not because Islam was closer to their beleifs.

But some Armenians were far from welcoming them with open arms. Local  dynasties and lords (such as Theotoros Rshduni) formed armies to try to stop the Arab invaders.

The Arabs' tolerance towards Armenians depended from emir to emir.

 

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