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Hezbollah's defeat of Israel uncovered |
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Hellios 
Arch Duke 
Joined: 25-Sep-2006 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 1933 |
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 Topic: Hezbollah's defeat of Israel uncoveredPosted: 30-Nov-2006 at 18:05 |
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Great solution you got their Lance; hope for another "9/11" so that the USA (might) impose involuntary military service.
You care little about the American Constitution & the civil liberties, rights, freedoms, it gives Americans, and evidently you're willing to let the "terrorists" make you flush all that down the toilet.
Your reason for this; because you believe Americans don't have enough will power or motivation to stand up for what they think is right. Funny, because this might be the reason why there seems to be a lack of Americans willing to continue serving in illegally occupied territories like Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.
You seem to think that all Americans should be motivated to serve in invasions, wars, and occupations that are ruled illegal by the UN, and if they're not; force them to against their will; very good Lance.
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Worldhistory
Knight 
suspended Joined: 12-Oct-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 80 |
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Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 18:49 |
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There never will be a victory, in the real sense, because they're one and the same.
The single aim of both sides of this pretend conflict is to create the necessary "feel sorry for us factor" so as to obtain benefits, let them be technological or financial, from gullible Westerners.
Both the Arab Muslims and the Arab Jews want to drive infidel engineered cars, watch infidel made movies and use infidel technology such as mobile phones.
It seems Yeho and Allah, didn't go far enough as to prohibit their chosen people from using infidel technology - much sort after by both Arab Muslims and Arab Jews.
The only way they can access infidel technology and lifestyle, let it be through communist donnations or illegal immigration, is to create "feel sorry for us" factors - such as pretend conflicts.
Just a scam.
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Hellios
Arch Duke
Joined: 25-Sep-2006 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 1933 |
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Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 20:54 |
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I know Haaretz; a very bias news source. In terms of journalistic fairness, professionalism, credibility, they're not in the same class as AP, Reuters, and some others. Just look at the tone & wording used.
With a comment like that you can be sure the author is not a professional journalist. Must be a novelist, play writer, or something like that.
The statement is also wrong in that Hezbollah are not an "army" - they're a resistance movement; something that will always exist during an illegal occupation - and Hezbollah didn't "win" like the author says - what they did is prevent Israel from winning.
The author doesn't mention that in her country the law states that authorities are not allowed to bomb crowds of people even when they feel or know that there are suspects or criminals among them, regardless of the criminal's offence. This is also international law, because the lives of Lebanese children are just as valuable as Israeli childrens' lives.
It doesn't work like that. A foreign military force has no legal right to order Lebanese people to leave their densely populated residential districts; their homes, possessions, livelihoods, etc, and dropping leaflets does not exonerate a military from war crimes such as leveling entire densely populated residential districts - this is something completely unacceptable under international law, whether you drop leaflets of no legal value or not!
If IDF is man enough to face Hezbollah face-to-face, then let them go in on foot, because bombing from the air and long range artillery always causes more civilian casualties, in any war.
The right to complain about civilian casualties can never be lost.
Hezbollah's goals are to rid foreign forces that have been illegally occupying Lebanon for decades, and to get back thousands of political prisoners detained during those decades of illegal occupation.
During the most recent episode, rocket fire into Israel begun only after the Israeli invasion commenced. Up to that point Hezbollah had just captured 2 IDF soldiers, to trade for the prisoners mentioned above, but when Lebanese civilians started dying, Hezbollah felt the need to retaliate, unfortunately.
The world will continue to cry about the civilian casualties as long as it continues. Israel wanted the world to listen to its cries about Jewish civilian casualties throughout history, and most of us have/do, because every civilian casualty deserves it, regardless of race or religion.
Any "babies and wives and mothers" that Israeli forces encountered while invading Lebanon were in or near their residential areas; where they have every right to be, regardless of what threats the Israeli military makes. Israeli bombs found them - not the reverse.
When a country is under occupation and/or being invaded, the defending people will store weapons in such places. If this author had studied the history of war, she would know that.
For example, in WWII churches were used all across Europe by various forces, and just about any other civic structure you can think of.
In Vietnam, Americans used medivac helicopters to ferry non-wounded troops and their weapons around, until the Vietnamese started shooting at them.
In Canada, homes were used, not just for storing weapons but for fighting posts as well, during invasions by the British and then the Americans.
See last few comments (above).
They consider themselves victorious because they achieved their goal of preventing IDF from achieving their 2 goals.
I don't think they love death more than life, but they're indeed extremely willing to die defending their land.
Personally, I'm not a "Hezbollah supporter" but I believe in understanding the true nature of a conflict, and one doesn't have to pick a side in order to do that. It's the reverse actually; easier to understand the true nature of a conflict as a neutral third party.
Edited by Hellios - 30-Nov-2006 at 21:11 |
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Vivek Sharma
Arch Duke
Joined: 22-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1775 |
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Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 20:58 |
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Unfortunately not yet. |
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PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn
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Vivek Sharma
Arch Duke
Joined: 22-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1775 |
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Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 21:13 |
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Good post. Another thing is that the humane nature of the Israeli & the Western army is often taken as a sign of weakness. They need to get over this. |
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PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn
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Hellios
Arch Duke
Joined: 25-Sep-2006 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 1933 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 22:06 |
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I know what you mean, but they have huge differences; ideological, religious, cultural, sociological, political, etc. Don't go solely on genetics, because there's more to a society than that. Again, I know what you mean.
The conflict is real.
Things done by both sides during that conflict actually lower international sympathy for them, i.e. they would have more international support if they didn't do certain things. In the case of my country, our relations with both Israel and Lebanon would be better if they stopped doing certain things.
Economically, both countries' economies have been hindered by the conflict. Lebanon has never benefited economically from this decades old conflict, and for Israel, peace with its neighbors would only add to its economic strength.
That's funny stuff
 , (but you might get in trouble for your choice of words, because you ran over a couple of forum rules).Edited by Hellios - 01-Dec-2006 at 01:05 |
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Zagros
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Suspended Joined: 11-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8792 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 10:55 |
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A good post? 
I suppose from your perspective it is, since it is of the same delusional and fantastic callibre as your views. |
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Guests
Guest 
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Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 13:21 |
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In order to defeat your enemy you must accomplish something right? Otherwise it really isn't a victory. In summnation, you're post is incorrect since Israel was not defeated, the facts just don't support your conclusion.
The following link, http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0817/p09s02-coop.html, is from the Christian Science Monitor. Excerpts below.
"The most useful way to gauge success in today's complex battlefield is probably to look at the initial interests that each party to the conflict had at the outset, and then look at the outcome to see what each party was able to achieve."
"Their probable goal in kidnapping two Israeli soldiers in July was to cause Israel to release Lebanese and Palestinian terrorists being held in its prisons, thereby boosting Hizbullah leader Hassan Nasrallah's significance in the region. But because of the subsequent Israeli response, Hizbullah wasn't able to achieve its aim."
"Israel has severely battered Hizbullah's military infrastructure, though certainly not put it out of commission. Nevertheless, the organization has lost a significant number of personnel and medium-range rockets. The organization has also lost, assuming that the present UN cease-fire plan is implemented as promised, its forward deployment positions along Israel's border and, indeed, exclusive control over territory south of the Litani River."
"Most important, in the coming months, Hizbullah will discover that it has alienated most of the Lebanese population, including large numbers of Lebanese Shiites, because its aggressive actions produced a harsh Israeli response that has brought the destruction of significant areas and infrastructure in Lebanon, as well as a major loss of life. Ultimately, Hizbullah will come out of this conflict considerably weakened."
"On balance, despite its somewhat lackadaisical performance, Israel achieved the bulk of its goals while Hizbullah can point to few accomplishments. The degree to which one side is able to achieve long-standing goals should therefore be the ultimate barometer as to the outcome of the Israeli-Hizbullah war. The media may have been seduced by footage of physical destruction, statistics of war dead, declarations of defiance by Nasrallah, as well as spats among the political and military leaders in Israel, but these are not the true measure of victory."
Well Zagross, as you can see Hezbollah was clearly defeated since it did not accomplish its goals, while Israel on the other hand came out pretty well.
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Guests
Guest
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Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 13:36 |
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Actually I didn't say anything about the Constitution. My point was that it would take another terrorist act to push the US into full-scale war and not the police action going on in Iraq right now. The sort of act of war that the President and Congress reinstate the draft over.
I'm talking about every man between the ages of 18 and 35 being called up for one purpose or another such as in WW2.
This isn't my theory on how to solve America's problems but rather to say that the US using very little of its potential might so far and in a radicalized future could bring immense and irresistable force to bear.
You're obviously upset about the US involvement in other countries but I can assure you I have no feeling about it either way. I didn't vote for Bush, I don't approve of his decisions and feel no responsiblity for the trouble he causes.
The Taliban clearly supported 911 so Afghanistan was invaded. I don't think the US military really wants to be there but they keep finding terrorists, many foreigners from the middle east, so they stay because they can't allow another cuckoo gov in there.
Iraq is Bush's thing. Sadam tried to assassinate his dad so he went there for a family grudge or some other purpose. At any rate the US is leaving and that's what the majority of Americans want.
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Hellios
Arch Duke
Joined: 25-Sep-2006 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 1933 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 18:31 |
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Hi Lance.
Didn't say IDF was defeated/destroyed. I said they didn't win. There's a difference; here, my words again:
"Hezbollah didn't "win" like the author says - what they did is prevent Israel from winning."
and form my post before that:
"I believe Hezbollah understand that they cannot destroy Israel, instead, they can only fight them in a defensive/guerilla style setting on their own land."
Lance, in some battles/wars there isn't always a decisive "winner". Some end in a draw, or with both sides only losing, etc. You're wrong about my perception of the outcome.
Since you're wrong about my perception of the outcome, these excerpts (about the interpretations of "success" and what defines it) are useless now, but I'll have a look for fun...
Makes sense.
A less bias and more accurate statement for the reader would be this:
They captured 2 Israeli soldiers to exchange them for Lebanese political prisoners detained during a few decades of occupation (an occupation ruled illegal by the UN), but this aim still hasn't been achieved. Israel invaded Lebanon with 2 aims; get back the captured IDF soldiers, and disarm Hezbollah, but neither of those 2 aims were achieved.
It's funny how the author believes that Hezbollah has a military "infrastructure". They're not set up that way. They know IDF can destroy any "infrastructure" they try to build, so they're organized as a mobile, concealed, guerilla-style resistance force. The only "infrastructure" that was "severely battered" was Lebanese civil infrastructure.
Anyhow, what the author, IDF, and you fail to understand is that even if Hezbollah was successfully disarmed by force, it would be a very temporary "solution", because as long as a foreign military occupies a sovereign country, there will be an armed resistance, especially if the occupation is ruled illegal by the UN. It would only take the next resistance movement (or Hezbollah itself) a few months to re-arm, because their weapons are small enough to enter the country through friendly borders.
True.
It's good that Hezbollah lost some medium & long range rockets, because (in my opinion) those are more "offensive" weapons they fire into northern Israel in retaliation for Lebanese civilian casualties, and I believe that's wrong.
Their more defensive weapons (like shoulder mounted anti-tank, etc.) are a different story. These are the weapons that truly enable them to resist IDF up close on Lebanese land.
Their human losses were significant because every life is significant, but strategically speaking, Hezbollah's human losses were not very significant. Most of the Lebanese casualties were civilians. The Shiite population of Lebanon is a quickly growing population; mainly due to their above-average birth rate.
See this thread:
Notice how the author only acknowledges certain things when it suits him or her; mentioning "harsh Israeli response that has brought the destruction of significant areas and infrastructure in Lebanon, as well as a major loss of life."
Anyhow, the last round actually made Hezbollah more popular among Lebanese Muslims, neighboring Muslim countries, Muslim states globally, and even some non-Muslem ones, so the author is wrong about that.
The neutral reality is this:
Hezbollah can be blamed for capturing the 2 IDF soldiers. Their motives for this was/is to trade them for political prisoners detained during decades of illegal occupation.
Only Israel holds the full blame for her actions; namely what the author said: "harsh Israeli response that has brought the destruction of significant areas and infrastructure in Lebanon, as well as a major loss of life."
True. Most people come out of conflicts weakened.
IDF had 2 objectives:
- get back the 2 captured IDF solders.
- disarm Hezbollah.
Hezbollah had 1 objective:
- prevent IDF from achieving their 2 objectives.
IDF failed both their objectives and Hezbollah achieved theirs.
The international community's reaction to the footage of physical destruction and statistics of war dead was in compliance with common sense.
Nasrallah's declarations of defiance are just funny, and have no impact whatsoever on my opinion.
The spats among Israeli political & military leaders are things that uphold my belief in Israel as a democratic society.
Edited by Hellios - 01-Dec-2006 at 18:50 |
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Hellios
Arch Duke
Joined: 25-Sep-2006 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 1933 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 20:07 |
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Ok, your point of view clearer now.
 I simply don't want such a thing (another major terrorist act like 9/11) to happen just for the sake of pushing the US into full scale war against an enemy that can almost instantly blend in with the rest of his locals; this enemy can't be defeated through "full scale war" as you say; this kind of enemy has to be dealt with in other ways; which is why Washington is rethinking their strategies in Iraq, etc, because fighting "terrorists" with "full scale war" is becoming increasingly ineffective.
Effectively & successfully fighting "terrorists" probably requires for you to hold the high ground on the moral, political, and legal fronts. It's hard (almost impossible) to do that when you engage them in wars/invasions/occupations that are ruled illegal by the international community.
A most effective anti-terrorist weapon for Israel would be to give back all Lebanese occupied land, and perhaps parts of some other occupied lands to other neighbors from recent wars. One by one, they should cut down the "terrorist's" excuses, and this will lead to a major shift in international support towards the Israeli side.
I think most Americans are proud of their civil right to not become soldiers, and hear the majority of them want to keep that civil right.
I don't think "immense and irresistible force" is the solution, but I agree that America is under/improperly using its potential. So is my country.
Not upset.
 Just discussing. You're right; Americans are not responsible for the actions of some of their elites.
That invasion of Afghanistan was a failure because it didn't achieve it's objective of getting rid of the Taliban and the number of Afghan civilian casualties many times higher than 9/11.
The international community is not stupid and knew this would happen, which is why that particular invasion was ruled illegal by the UN to begin with, but the story now is different, because we're trying to clean up the mess.
Agreed.
You can't blame the international community for the way it feels about Iraq. We were lied to about a few things like the weapons of mass destruction, biological/chemical weapons, involvement in 9/11, the true civilian death count, etc. When you combine these things with the direct consequences/results/civilian deaths in Iraq, it can only result in negativity.
Cheers. Edited by Hellios - 01-Dec-2006 at 20:14 |
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Worldhistory
Knight
suspended Joined: 12-Oct-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 80 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Dec-2006 at 20:20 |
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Only to the extent needed to be shown on a daily basis on the TV screen for the gullible minded.
It's called polarisation - whereby unsuspecting people are influenced (some say brain washed) to take one side or the other in an otherwise (nothing to do with them) conflict.
Either way, it helps the relevance of both branches (Muslims and Jews) of the Arabs to increase at the cost of other people neglecting to solve their more important and own ongoing historical issues and problems.
Arabs, let them be Jews or Muslim want the centre stage because they can't, and never could, accept they're not really all that important in the world.
They've never been important and this is why they lie, invent false stories and rebadge the history of others and the world.
Edited by Worldhistory - 03-Dec-2006 at 20:21 |
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Seko
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Spammer Joined: 01-Sep-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8595 |
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Posted: 04-Dec-2006 at 06:16 |
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Worldhistory seems to have taken liberties with his ethnic generalizations. His posts will be reviewed by the Mod Staff.
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Zagros
Emperor
Suspended Joined: 11-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8792 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Dec-2006 at 08:30 |
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Worldhistory, if you have ever bothered to read our code of conduct, you will notice that in almost every post you violate them.
Your comments are racist and are not suited to this forum and corrective action will shortly be taken. |
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konstantinius
General 
Joined: 22-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 762 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Dec-2006 at 14:29 |
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"world history" are you claiming that the conflict in the M East is caused by two ARABIC factions ("Arabs, let them be Jews or Muslim[...] world".)? So you consider Israel to be an Arabic state? Jews are not Arabic (OK, there's a lot of discussion that could go on this, both Semitic, in close proximity for hundreds of years etc etc) . There is an arab-Jewish minority in Israel with the arab jews serving in the Israeli army just like anyone else but there is definetely NOT an Arabic majority in Israel.
Anti-Arab propaganda can be waged in much smarter ways than this. Smarten up or shut up.
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" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."
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mamikon
Sultan 
Joined: 16-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2200 |
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Posted: 04-Dec-2006 at 16:33 |
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Compare Israel and lebanon now...and compare Israel and Lebanon before the war.
Virtually nothing has changed for Israel, maybe its reputation became a little worse but its reputation was not that good among it neighbors in the first place. Lebanon meanwhile had its "Paris of the Middle East" bombed, economy destroyed, with thousands of internally displaced people and refugees abroad, as of last week almost on the verge civil war. Seeing how hezbollah is part of Lebanon...can you truly say they have won and Israel has lost? And about those "goals". Does anyone truly beleve the goal of Israel was to get those 2 soldiers back? There have dozen such kidnappings every year for the past 10 years or so... |
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Zagros
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Suspended Joined: 11-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8792 |
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Posted: 05-Dec-2006 at 14:59 |
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This is purely froma military perspective, that some people have viewed it as otherwise is unfortunate. The war was not between Lebanon and Israel it was between Israel and Hezbollah - Hezbollah is not weakeend in anyway as far as serious analysts are concerned, in fact it has grown much stronger and gained Christian support and support throughout the Arab street, shi'ite and Sunni. ISrael punished the people of Lebanon because it could not touch Hezbollah in any effective way. |
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mamikon
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Joined: 16-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2200 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Dec-2006 at 15:53 |
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I didnt realize it is from a purely military perspective, sry about that. Still, you cant say Hezbollah won...it just didn't lose. In conjunction you cant say that Israel actually lost to Hezbollah...unless you are holding them to different standards.
Forces of Lebanon might not have been involved...but look who received the most damage. In any case, say next year Lebanon gets back to its feet (as before the war) , Hezbollah pulls off another kidnapping stunt and Israel once more attcks, causing humand deaths (in both countries) and damage in billions....those Chrsitians and Sunnis would again stant next to Hezhollah? I really dont think they will...
Israel punished the people (damaging mostly sh*te neighborhoods) who are voting for Hezbollah in Lebanese politics...dont you think this is effective? (and abhorrent) |
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Zagros
Emperor
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Posted: 05-Dec-2006 at 16:08 |
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From a tactical perspective as in "mission accomplished", Hezbollah was successful and Israel was unsuccessful, hence the use of the term "defeated".
Hezbollah's kidnap of the soldiers was not unexpected: Hezbollah have stated their objective of kidnapping IDf men to use as bargaining chips to secure release of Lebanese prisoners since 2003 when sharon pulled out of a planned prisoner exchange. If you have a look at the article it will state that despite IDF protocol these particular soldiers were placed in an effective blind spot, hence the ease of their capture... Israeli casualties (8) were not incurred until the commander in the area sent troops in blind pursuit. --- Well, the bombing had the opposite effect, even christian protesters were holding up placards with Nassrallah on them and in Cairo a recent opinion poll came out with Nasrallah as the most popular leader in the Islamic sphere.. Bombing civilians is contrary tot he Geneva Convention to which Israel is a party and in itself is a terror tactic. Also, Israel did not just bomb Shiite suburbs, they also hit Christian suburbs, they bombed infrastructure like bridges and airports etc and completely blocked off the country. Edited by Zagros - 05-Dec-2006 at 16:11 |
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mamikon
Sultan
Joined: 16-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2200 |
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Posted: 05-Dec-2006 at 16:36 |
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Thats what I said in the beginning...There were kidnappings before, and the main purpose of Israel was not to get them back...at least thats what it seems.
It did have opposite effect; do you think it will have the same opposite effect say in 5 years, if this scenario repeats? Or would you see Christian/Sunni protests against Hezbollah's independent actions? When Hezbollah commits such actions it puts the whole nation in danger. It should not be "above" everybody else in Lebanon, especially when it represents lower than 30% of the Lebanese. Edited by mamikon - 05-Dec-2006 at 16:40 |
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