Hezbollah's defeat of Israel uncovered
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: Modern Warfare
Forum Discription: Military history and miltary science from the ''Cold War'' era onward.
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15778
Printed Date: 24-Apr-2024 at 12:40
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Topic: Hezbollah's defeat of Israel uncovered
Posted By: Zagros
Subject: Hezbollah's defeat of Israel uncovered
Date Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 08:35
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Here are some interesting points.
The 8 IDF men were not killed during the kidnappings as the ISraeli propaganda machine would have you believe. They were killed after an embarrassed IDF commander ordered a pursuit of the kidnappers, this resulted int eh obliteration of a Merkava (and instant death for its 4 crew members) and the destruction of a couple of other vehicles incurring more casualties.
Israel did no damage whatsoever to Hezbollah's infrastructure, its tactic was to destroy Lebanon and hope that the Sunnis and Christians would turn against them.
The two kidnapped soldiers were not in the sight of any covering fire (HIGHLY CONTRARY TO IDF PROTOCOL ON THE LEBANESE BORDER) - in other words this kidnapping was anticipated given that:
Hezbollah soldiers are under orders to "exploit" any weaknesses in the Israeli line and to kidnap soldiers on an indefinite basis. There was no "Green light" from Iran. Iran had nothing to do with it. HEzbollah declared its intentions to carry out kidnappings after Ariel Sharon pulled out of a plan for prisoner exchange three years ago. ANOTHER LIE perpetuated by the Israeli propaganda machine, both in Israel and in the US, where any criticism of ISrael's policies can well lead to you losing your job, as exemplified in this analysis.
This analysis comes in three parts, it is very good reading. Enjoy.
HOW HEZBOLLAH DEFEATED ISRAEL
PART 1: Winning the intelligence war
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HJ12Ak01.html - http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HJ12Ak01.html PART 2: Winning the ground war
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HJ13Ak01.html - http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HJ13Ak01.html
PART 3: The political war
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HJ14Ak01.html - http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HJ14Ak01.html
By Alastair Crooke and Mark Perry
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Replies:
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 01:37
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Good propoganda & strategy. Provoke somebody to destroy your country & then garner support. Talking of hizbolla's infrastructure is ridiculous. What infrastructure did they have ? Hiding yourself behind women & children is not infrastructure. If the bedrooms & the schools & hospitals where their arms were hidden is counted as infrastructure then of course it's a different matter, but for that the definition of infrastructure would have to be changed. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 09:34
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From your ignorant diatribe, it is obvious that you did not read the article (which draws from military and political analysis), thus your opinion (as it is without any citation to a credible source) in this thread is not qualfied, and unwelcome, since you are taking it off topic. Just a recap: this thread is about Hezbollah's defeat of Israel and how it was achieved. And for your information: They did not hide behind women and children; they stopped the IDF in its tracks, toe to toe, the IDF achieved zero military goals. Hezbollah exemplified the quote in your signature. ------------- |
Posted By: alexISS
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 09:54
Yes that's true, Israel lost in the same way it had won the seven days war... The Israeli army lost it's prestige as, before the attack on Lebanon, it was considered tactically brilliant, but not anymore... For me that's the real defeat of Israel ------------- "Military justice is to justice what military music is to music" Groucho |
Posted By: Krum
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 11:05
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Israely military operations in Lebanon were a total failure.Israel not only didnt harm Hezbollah but they made it stronger. ------------- It is only the dead who have seen the end of war. Plato |
Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 15:25
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Actually IDF had destroyed many of Hezbollah members and missiles. IDF had destroyed Shia neighborhood to, mostly Shias support Hezbollah in Lebnan. So its not a victory for Hesbollah, i think it wont make them stronger.
What about Israel? Yes they lost some prestige, as you said guys. So what? Its not a big deal for Israel. Whats gonna happen? UN or other countries will stop their affairs with Israel? No i dont think so. ------------- |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 15:28
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Israel lost her courage. It is a psychological impact, nothing more or less. |
Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 16:39
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And Hezbollah lost nothing??? I belive they lost more than Israel. ------------- |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 16:48
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They lost much more than israel, but they have not as much enemies as israel.
Arab can survive after 100 lost against israel, but israel cannot even survive after one big loss.
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Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 16:54
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But it wasnt a big lost. Actually Israel never had a big lost since 1948. ------------- |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 17:01
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Indeed, but this doesnot mean israel will not lost any war.
Loosing courage is generally first step of loosing war. If I am jew, I will try to become more friendly to arabs. Infact Survival of israel(at long term) is at the hand of arabs.
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Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 17:04
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If you were a jew you cant even get out to street becouse of bombing-fear. ------------- |
Posted By: çok geç
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 17:52
There is a huge difference between being unable to go out because you fear you will be one of the targeted in a random suicide bombing, and between when you are literally locked inside your home due to a curfew that extends to more than half of the year. If you violate the curfew, you are also literally shot. Not to mention that even in days of no curfews, if you live in Gaza or the West Bank, expect a random bullet from an army road station, a missle to hit you because you happen to be walking near a car of a targeted Hamas leader, or even worst, the many cases of whole building turned to dust and iron at 2 or 4 am without any warning because a suspected Hamas leader is in the third floor of that building (it happened already tons of times).
Though, i have a respect of human life and the quality of life for all people and all faiths and origins, I find it typically-biased argument to state the psychological fears of Israelis while there are people nearby who cannot do their basic life activities even if they decided to go over the psychological impact of their ill-treatment and challenge it and go out. ------------- D.J. Kaufman Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk. |
Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 19:16
OK. not just suicide bomb while you are outside. But jews hit by random (katyusha)missile fires while they are in home too(Just like muslims killed by missiles).
I have respect to human life just like you. But not only the muslims are killed. Muslims not the only victims.  In both side civilians are getting hurt.(Dont forget their pain, their mortality equals to the others)------------- |
Posted By: Timotheus
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 21:03
| It's quite obvious that the Muslims cant drive the Jews out and the Jews can't drive the Muslims out without severe pain on either side. Neither will either leave voluntarily. Regardless of what should have happened in the past, why can't they learn to live with the present and cease trying to change the past? |
Posted By: Aktufe
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 22:08
I think the problem lies more with what's happening in the present rather than the past... |
Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 22:36
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Actually Kaddafi has a good idea about that. Did anyone read his whitebook(a solution for Israel-Palastine problem) He says if there will be two different state in area they'll fight forever, he says they should live togather in one state, wich called Isratine(Israel+Palastine)
But the main problem of that plan nobody want to live with others.
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Posted By: Pacifist
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 23:31
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Nonsense. Israel did not lose, it killed about 600 Hizbullah militants, which is much higher then its own casualties. If Israel ever loses a war, it will cease to exist. Not that it´s going to happen anyway. The glorious IDF will always crush their enemies Zagros, don´t worry my friend! ------------- |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 07:28
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"My friend", why don't you discuss anything written in the article? Have you even read it? I don't think so. Where is your evidence that 600 Hezbollah fighters were killed? There were only 184 "martyr" burials. And Shi'ism is very strict in honouring its war dead. ------------- |
Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 08:15
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I'm not saying I like it, but the only thing that was demonstrated here was a militarily far superior state, which could have reduced Lebanon to absolute nothingness, bending to political pressure. There was never any question of whether Israel would win this war or not.
Given Lebanon's odds though, you could say it was some kind of moral victory. To the hungry man even a mere slice of bread is a feast. ------------- |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 08:22
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It pretty much did reduce southern Lebanon to nothingness, so much so that it actually had to demand more munitions from the US, munitions which were transported via Scotland. And the war wasn't even allegedly against Lebanon, it supposed to be against Hezbollah. To all: Please read the articles and comment on specific points. ------------- |
Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 09:31
Yea but Hezbollah is in Lebanon(for years). To many people from Leanon supporting Hezbollah, to many Hezbollah members are Lebanon citizens. ------------- |
Posted By: çok geç
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 12:29
if Osama Bin Laden would subscribe to this forum, he would say I targeted the civilian targets of September 11th because:
Bush administration is in the USA (for many years). Too many Americans are supporting the republicans, and too many republican members are American citizens.
I guess this logic is extremely illogical to Al Qaeda but it is ok to excuse Israel in the light of the same logic! ( I actually think they are using the same logic already since their creation). ------------- D.J. Kaufman Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk. |
Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 15:58
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but the bush administartion has only been there for a year when osama attacked... ------------- |
Posted By: çok geç
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 17:43
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I think time is irrelevant to such a lame excuse. Osama can state the "Zionist" lobby and the skewed American foriegn policy instead of naming a single administration (which he actually did). Israel said disarm Hezbollah, stop supporting Palestinian "terrorism" and return the soldiers, and they will stop targeting Lebonon infrastructure and civilian targets.
Osama said in his "decleration of War" and multiple times that let the United States withdraw from the "holy land" and stop supporting Israeli "terrorism" and let go the prisoners of Guantenamo, and he will stop his attacks.
If both targetted civilian infrastructure and individuals intentionally, what is the difference here? Why individual terrorism is fully recognized but a state terrorism is out of questioning? ------------- D.J. Kaufman Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk. |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 22:53
I must start by saying, great articles zagros. im still alittle weary about this war being described as some clean sweep, but its couldnt be much better for Isreal, than what is described here either. My first comment is that this fills in some details not known before and confirms other articles during the war, and some impressions. The suprise outcome and why i was wrong at the start of this war, was the isreali intelligence defeat, described so well in the first article. Isreal has always been strong in this area and i assumed that they knew where to fight and had a proper plan. I was sooo wrong here. I only got clued that they were 'shooting in the dark' after 4-5 days into the war. This first article, being my favourite, describes how hezbollah had gained a SIGINT capability over the isreali comms, which i have to say is very impressive. i always thought that western comms/command technology as next to impossbile to overcome and one of the areas of clear superoirty. . That assumption has now been killed. so where one would expect isreal to be superoir in; electronics & intelligence, was simply not there. All of a sudden the rest makes sense. The fighting on the ground is already largely known, the isreali soldiers were describing Hezbi as pro's and had respect for them. i have seen them on TV years ago, small well trained units that knew the isreali's well armed with night vision/camo/good weapons. So after watching that news clip i was expecting a very good fight from them. They only thing the article didnt go into was the silkworm attack on the isreali corvette, i wished they this explained futher. ------------- 
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 12:17
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I also noted that. I think becuase the only information sources on that incident are the IDF and Hezbollah - both are very secretive organisations. But other members on this forum previously stated that the missile was not in fact a Silkworm, otherwise the corvette would have been cleaved clean in twain.
ISrael initially said that its phallanx anti missile system was disabled, I find that ahrd to beleive for a ship in full combat mode and in anotehr report I read that the missile itself was equiped with a jamming system and that is actually why it got through.
In support of the jamming theory - after this incident the Israeli ships did not dare to go within missile range again - soobviously they have no confidence in the reliability of their phallanx system, which is esentially just a gatgun network that shoots at the incoming. ------------- |
Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 15:58
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Dear Çokgeç;
Hezbollah is a terorist organization. USA is a legal country just like Israel, they both UN members. ------------- |
Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 19:53
I believe you still cannot compare what Al Qaeda has done to New York as to what Israel is trying to do on Lebanon. Osama did not just attack the US because of any administration. OSama attacked because he hates America in general. Period. The more Americans he kills, the more pleasure he gets. Israel is attacking Lebanon because the government is too weak to get the hezbo's out. ------------- |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 01:18
Right Erkut, the problem is sympathisers of Hizbolla see the reluctance of israel to wipe out the entire Passive supporters of this terrorism as a sign of their weakness rather than their kindheartedness.
They talk of victory of Hizbolla over Israel, a nation which has the capacity of destroying the entire middle east singlehandedly & which has demonstrated it's ability again & again.
They all talk for Hizbolla, but none has the courage to fight Israel in a war & never had it or even side with Hizbolla except Ahmedijinad who is desperate for support inside his country by playing upon people's emotions & might very well lead his country to another round of destruction like Saddam's Iraq.
The funniest part is that all these countries are franetically trying to attract the friendship of their so called enemies, when there people are supposedly shedding tears for Hizbolla.
It's amazing to see how high hypocrisy can go.
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: çok geç
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 02:03
What are you trying to say? because the USA and Israel are UN members and states, they cannot commit terrorism? Then why shall we call Syria, Sudan, and Iran terrorist states? Aren't they also members of UN and countries just like Israel?
Dear Erkut, a state can commit terrorism. In fact, more terrorism committed by states and more death conducted by states than terrorist organization. This is a FACT.
This is the notion again of pure evil and pure good. Nonsense to reality. I will ask you if you read Osama's decleration of war against the United States? Certainly not. Furthermore, I ask you that when you read it, to find me one single line that he literally expresses that the goal is to kill Americans for no reason, or for pleasure. If you read his decleration of war, you will see he uses a much more intelligent argument than simply killing Americans. If you are implying that his hidden intention is to have pleasure of American blood, we can speculate and assume such fantasies on any war criminal, including Ariek (Ariel) Sharon.
Kindheartedness? They did not wipe out Lebanon because the world is watching. Once the world blinks an eye for a second, you will have more massacres of hundred of villages wiped out as in 1948, the massacre of Dier Yassin, the massacre of Sabra & Shatila and recently, throwing a ton bomb on an apartments stories complex in Gaza just because one Hamas member is in one apartment. Killing tens of civlians at 4 am! What kindheartedness is here? ------------- D.J. Kaufman Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk. |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 02:23
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Thanks Cok Gec, for pointing out this incident.
What else you expect a state to do to an apartment complex that hides some terrorists & supports them. What else you expect from Israel when Rockets are fired from courtyards of Hospitals & schools ?
It is not the Israelis & the American support to Israels which did the harm to Lebonon. It was the passive supporters of Hizbolla terrorism who destroyed Lebonan.
If Hizbolla is not a terrorist organization, then why does it not start a war against Israel & fight untill it wins with the support of all the middle east or whoever supports them.
Dear friend face the reality, no body even in the muslim nations except the Shia Iran has sympathies for the Hizbolla. Syria had some but doesn't have anymore.
All the Arabs want to see the Hizbolla brought to face the law for what they are - terrorists. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 02:31
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It has become fashionable for a lot of people these days to criticise the US & talk against Israel, but they have not made it fashionable to stop trying attracting the friendship of the US & the west.
US & Israel are not terrorist states, because they openly declare war & fight openly with their armies in battlefield. They don't arm, finance & train militias & terrorists to fight for their cause, they fight with their official armies.
They don't go hiding after launching rocket attacks, they stay in the field even after victory, trying to bring semblance of good governance in the countries they win. They try to restore order, at their cost.
Their soldiers don't fight or face the media with their faces covered by hijabs or face masks, trying to hide their identity. They fight with full media cover with them. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 03:22
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Dear Çokgeç;
Hezbollah is a terorist organization. USA is a legal country just like Israel, they both UN members.
Legality does not mean It is right.
Infact USA is boss of UN. So becoming UN member does mean zero.
Israel is absolutely more terrorist than hezbollah.
And that suicide bombing is boring.
Sorry last one month, I generally read arabs were killed by israel, not jews were killed by arabs.
So If I am jew who respect human life, I will fight against my own country
Anyway, History is not limited with 100 year, Israel supperiority is not forever, but their neighbors.
It is also sad, If israel ever lost a war, most probably arabs will do what they learn from israel.
Right Erkut, the problem is sympathisers of Hizbolla see the reluctance of israel to wipe out the entire Passive supporters of this terrorism as a sign of their weakness rather than their kindheartedness.
Your passive supporters theory is nothing more than bullsh*t. So what jews are pasive supporters of israel terrorism, americans are passive supporter of USA attack over iraq. Lets kill them all. You should try to be atleast a little neutral. Your anti-muslim feeling destroy your thinking way.
By the way, You are also passive supporter of israel and USA politics, acording to your stupid ideas, you should be killed.
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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 03:30
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guys can we discuss if it is a terrorist organistion in a another thread, this thread is about the conduct of the war.
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 03:37
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Dear Mortaza I am not anti muslim, Why do you think I am anti muslim ? Please don't consider me as anti muslim. I am only against the section of Indian muslims who live in India, enjoy all the facilities of India but work against it. No hard feelings against others.
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 05:28
Originally posted by haaretz |
The committee investigating the incident in which a Hezbollah missile hit an Israel Navy vessel off Beirut published its temporary findings on Monday, pointing a blaming finger at the ship's captain and the admiral of the navy for the attack. On July 14, a Hezbollah-launched missile struck Israel Navy vessel Hanit off the coast of Lebanon. At the time of impact, the ship's state-of-the-art anti-missile system was not functioning, apparently because intelligence did not expect Hezbollah possessed missiles of that sort. The committee found three other anti-missile systems were also turned off and the majority of the soldiers were in the mess hall, eating Sabbath dinner. In addition, the ship's vulnerability to attack was increased because it was cruising a short distance from the Lebanon coast on orders of the admiralty. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/775538.html - 
Yeah I am not sold on the jamming story, but ive been wrong about this war before  -------------
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Posted By: çok geç
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 10:10
What logic is this? Since when in the 21st century killing a "terrorist" wife and kids is part of the operation? or since when killing tens of civilians is ok as long as this single man is there in the 3rd floor of a seven stories building?? Have you heard of assassination Vivek? have you heard of snipers? kidnapping?...etc
Anyhow, I don't expect a state like Israel to do anything except disregard to human life of others as soon the opportunity comes in. With a slight suspection, they have no problem hitting any target, including the UN shelter of Qana in 1996, killing 100 of just children and females!
If you still think all of this necessary, then sure, argue it is necessirty but do not fabricate a story of heartedness because that is the only thing that is missing in the IDF, a heart. ------------- D.J. Kaufman Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk. |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 10:39
Images of Israel's kind heartedness. As stated, tehy used so many of their bombs that they had to demand more from the US in order to feed their frenzied and indiscriminate air attacks, such as those on refugee convoys and buildings sheltering women and children.
Their bombiong was so indiscriminate that they blew a UN outpost to smitherines.
So enough regurgitation of Israel's bullsh*t propaganda, Vivek, and discuss the article or do not discuss at all, for the last time.
Reminder to all: This is not a discussion on the merits of Hezbollah or Israel as terrorist entities. This is a discussion of the specifics of their war AS outlined in the topic starting post.
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 23:54
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Zagros, I don't know which country you are from, but you don't seem to have any experience of military operations.
When you are fired upon by rockets or missiles, you don't spend time in looking for intelligence or pin point the targets, If you do you will be doomed. You fire in the general direction from which the attack comes. It's a game. If you are lucky you will get the enemy, if you are not, well your luck. The soldiers don't have the time to think, they can only react.
And if the firing is coming from a residential building, you shoot at the building, the open windows, the doors, since you shooting at the walls will serve no purpose.
The residents of the building who are letting the building used by the terrorists are passive terrorists themselves as guilty of the attack as the active terorists.
And talking of air attacks try taking a small aircraft up in the sky (if you have access to flying, if not come to India & I will take you up & demonstrate) & shoot down at an imaginary target on the ground (if you have access to or come to India & I will facilitate your experiment) & mark your accuracy.
Sitting in our homes in front of the TV, it is very easy to pass comments on the soldiers, but try thinking from the point of view of the attacked soldier. He soesn't have time to think. He can only react.
And your topic is about the defeat of israel, I am on mark. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 10:01
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I think you have been mislead as to the nature of the conflict Sharma. The massive damage done to Lebanon was not done by troops on the ground, it was done by aircraft and artillery, which at no point came under fire from the medium-ranged surface-to-surface missiles possessed by Hezbollah. The IDF did not come under fire over the streets of Beirut, they systematically targetted civilian structures and infrastructure. In most cases there wasn't Hezbollah presence anywhere near the civilians. Qana being an important example. Here dozens of children were killed by an Israeli bombing run against a building they were later forced to admit did not have a Hezbollah presence. The UN outpost was DELIBERATELY targetted. The massive artillery bombardment and aerial attack occured over the course of hours during which the UN were constantly informing the IDF of their identity and calling for them to cease fire. I would also like to quote the Israeli government's response to a request to build a small bridge into souther Lebanon by the Red Cross: "You build it, we'll bomb it". Israel has alot to answer for. Hezbollah also had a massive victory in Lebanon. It gained support with the people, up from less than 50% to more than 90%. It had all the issues on its agenda scheduled for UN address, and it dealt a military defeat to Israel. Israel failed to do significant damage to Hezbollah, lost all international respect, was militarily defeated and actually increased Hezbollah's support base. The war definately goes to Hezbollah, with Lebanon coming last despite being the innocent victim of an unnecessary and pointlessly cruel attack. ------------- |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 10:30
Don't make me laugh. Your amateurish propaganda regurgitating comments make it clear that you have no sense of objective discernment in what is fact and what is fiction.
And what country I am from bears no relevance to my understanding of affairs military. Although I, probably unlike 99% of the posters on this site, have unfortunately lived in a city targetted by indiscriminate airstrikes and artillery fire on its non-military infrastructure.
There were no rockets fired from inside cities. Those attacks were acts of attrition against the nation of Lebanon and had nothing to do with Hezbollah. Why do you think even Christians held rallies holding placards of Hassan Nasrallah? Because they felt he provided the only defence their country had against the ruthless Israeli aggression. They would have done no such thing before the war.
Do you even know how big the rockets Hezbollah were firing are? It seems it is you who needs a little schooling in this area, or even a little common sense would tell you that it is nigh impossible to fire such weapons from tower blocks.
Those pictures are from deep within Lebanon, Hezbollah stopped the IDF DEAD in its tracks at the border, remember? Those atrocities are the result of airtrikes purported to be against Hezbollah - but not one Hezbollah official died in such bombings. They were smart, they were hiding in bunkers that no one, not even they (the officials) knew where they were. As you would know if you could, for half an hour, relinquish your imbecilic arrogance and ignorance, and read the damn articles instead of commenting with your usual, undignified, rhetoric.
Oh please, spare me the... ------------- |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 06:54
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The air attacks were meant to destroy the economic & support infrastructure. It was pointed out many times that rocket launchers were found in the vicinity of the destroyed sites including qana. If hizbolla is so holier than thou, why does'nt it start a war to finish & win the war. Why does it have to stoop to terrorist activities every now & then ? Let them attack Israel & do what the egyptians & the rest of the Arab world could not do. Why hide behind skirmishes & then wait for people to shed tears & garner sympathy ?
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 07:01
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The air attacks were meant to destroy the economic & support infrastructure.
You can say same too. You can claim that aim of el kaide was to destroy economic and more power of USA, but still It was an terrorist act.
If hizbolla is so holier than thou, why does'nt it start a war to finish & win the war. Why does it have to stoop to terrorist activities every now & then ? Let them attack Israel & do what the egyptians & the rest of the Arab world could not do. Why hide behind skirmishes & then wait for people to shed tears & garner sympathy ?
weird words.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 07:57
So your argument, Sharma, is that it is acceptable for Israel to commit terrorist acts... because it's Israel? Also, Israel was later forced to admit that the video evidence of Qana was actually from another site, no-where near residential areas. They had no hard intelligence that Hezbollah was operating from that area. ------------- |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 09:23
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Never were there any found. Please provide a source for that claim.
Again, you display your lack of understanding and knowledge of the IDF, Hezbollah and the history surrounding this conflict - not to mention military doctrine and tactics. I don't know what cognitive process has led you to as such an irrelevant statement.
IDF = Regular army, touted as the best there is (or was) by the Israeli
Hezbollah = Shi'ite militia created to push out the Israeli occupying forces from Southern Lebanon.
What are Hezbollah's terrorist activities?
Kidnappings? Israel is also very prolific and proficient in this area.
Indiscriminate rocket fire? Again, Israel actually started this. Hezbollah fired its rockets after the Israelis began their psychopathic attacks on urban centres.
You seriously expect a guerilla force to comeout into the open and give up its only advantage? Their doctrine is defence of Lebanon no attack, that is why they did not mount any offensives, only defensive operations, during which they fought toe to toe with IDF soldiers and their tanks and defeated them.
All Israel could do was turn buildings to rubble from afar.
If Hezbollah had the same equipment as Israel and were actually a regular fighting force, then going by this performance, where a brigade of no more than 3000 men held off the full might of ISrael, then there would have been a comprehensive all out defeat of Israel.
Excerpt from part two.
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Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 18:15
But the question is, why should the Lebanese goverment get the hezbo's out in the first place? Hezbollah is a political party in Lebanon with elected parliament members and what seems like considerable support among the population. This by some is seen as blatant interference in the internal political process of another, sovereign country. Exactly for that reason, Israel will never be successful in outsing Hezbollah unless they occupy and annex the entire country of Lebanon. This is beyond their military capabilities and they resolve in ineffective and costly reprisals that also cost them in international oppinion which, with the exception of the US public and Vivek Sharma on this forum, generally sees Israel as the aggressor in these situations. This is a dead-end road for Israel and saps their morale and resources. Incidents like conscientious objectors and desertes will increase under this strategy. The mental and physical general unpreperadness of the Israeli reserves is telling of a society exhausted yet caught in a situation where there is no respite, no rest. Hezbollah, Iran and all the other Arab countries have inexhaustible resources but lack unity and their militaries are obsolete, antiquated machimes that don't stand a chance in the open field against a Western-type army. Of course the argument is that the IDF, precisely a Western-type army, were stopped by Hezbollah irregulars making good use of the terrain, who also possesed new-found artillery capabilities. Still, this was not fought in a style of total war where regard for civilians and destruction is low, WW II is a good example. Or perhaps Israel lacks numbers. Regardless, Hezbollah and Lebanon don't stand a chance against a combined Anglo-American force with a good auxilliary back-up by Canadians, French, Aussies and with the OK to go in and shoot s..t up. ------------- " I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so." |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 00:55
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Konstantinus has expressed it right.
Another thing is that, are the Hizbolla some miracle men who could accomplish what even the huge armies of entire arab & middle east have not been able to do ? What happened in Sinai & 72 ?
The truth is that yes Israel was over confident & not prepared for the sort of weaponry & organised fighting which came from the Hizbolla this time. It had underestimated them & relied on it's past records & intelligence, which failed this time.
But then one tactic stalemate does not lead to a victory in a war. Otherwise Stalingrad would not have dragged for so long. The Hizbolla is like the same group of people, who were ousted in Iraq, earlier in trhe ottoman empire, in 1948 & so on.
Nowhere in the world, can a militia of 3000, no matter how committed, or well armed, defeat any army. I am not talking of the Israeli army but NO army in the world. Will the PKK be able to defeat the turkish army ? Will the kurds be able to beat the Iraq & Iran armies, Will the baloochis be able to beat the pak army. No
Israel does not occupy South Lebonan for pleasure, but with a purpose, which is given to it continuously by the hizbolla, Syria, Iran, Previously Saddam & the failure of Lebonan as a state, not to speak of other countries / people.
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 08:03
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Militias have shamed regular armies in History, i.e. Marathon and Yorktown. But those were free citizen-based and had the right of dissent and association, they were not part of a basically theocratic organization. The point of my previous post is that Israel is not winning this in the long run, regardles of the unconditional US support. No reason to brag about their performance, in my oppinion.
------------- " I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so." |
Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 21:16
Well since 1948 Israel is wining(So i think its long run kostas )------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 22:38
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I would like to have seen Israel 'win' without US backing. ------------- |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 13:53
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Well since 1948 Israel is wining(So i think its long run kostas)
60 year is not a long run at history.Also you can win a lot conflict, and loose war.(what happened crusaders.), Infact I dont think israel can survive If they follow their enemity to arabs. Infact They are inside of an arab sea. |
Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 18:13
I don't think Israel is "winning". They are tentatively holding on for dear life. The brilliant victories (from a military point of view, not ethnic) of 1948 and 1967 just created buffer zones around the borders. The military capabilities of the surrounding Arab countries were not compromised. Also, as Zaitsev pointed out, without the continuing support of the US I don't think Israel would be able to win anything. ------------- " I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so." |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 00:00
IFs & Buts, Israel without the US & Hizbolla without the arab / muslim support. Israel still wins hands down. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: çok geç
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 02:55
Not really. For one reason:
Israel + USA backup (the superpower) VS Hezbollah + Iran & Syria = Result? (Israel itself admited non of its four objectives are achieved).
Take out the US & Hizbolla's supporters from the equation:
Israel VS Hezbollah = Result? (Same for sure, otherwise illogical conclusion). ------------- D.J. Kaufman Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk. |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 03:02
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Israel without the US will still be far too powserfull for the Hizbolla without their supporters, for Israel has all the resources of it's nation at its command, while Hizbolla dont even command the support of their whole nation which itself is much much much weaker than Israel. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 03:25
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how do you judge power vivek? if the isrealis were powerful they way you think, they would of defeated hezbollah in half the time it took for them to lose. anyway why are the negoiting with hezbollah to free the lebanese hostages if they are in complete control?
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 06:05
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The problem is they are respecting international laws & trying to be good natured, although it will not serve any purpose with terrorists like Hizbolla & they will have to come bact with their fire power every once in a while. they are just trying to avoid a bloodshed for the Hizbolla ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Dampier
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 07:55
What? Like blowing up UN observers who radioed in their position three times? Like dropping Cluster Bombs everywhere? Like hitting schools? If the Israeli government and military wants more sympathy from me they could try stopping all of the above and realise the truth; the way to stop these angry men is to help them. Build Palestine into a decent state, give it aid, create schools, shope, buy from them. Yes there will be losses, yes it will be painful but Israeli politicans need to take a long term view. Thats not to say that the surrounding states couldnt do more to help. Despite many being invredibly rich they offer little support to Palestine, support anti-Israel organisations and foster terrorism. One side needs to step forward and do the, painful, right thing. ------------- 
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 23:43
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No that will not help. No matter how much help or aid they give, nothing will change, it will only make them stronger. What they are doing now is the best solution for them, only they could be a bit more firm on their stand. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 03:58
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Israel are too weak to finish the job and too strong to go down right away. One thing Arabs have traditionally been good at in their own homeland is attrition. Iraq is another example of that. Laurens and his Arabs inflicted the same on the Ottomans. It's a question of how long Israeli resources will last for.
------------- " I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so." |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 07:09
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Sharma, without US support Israel wouldn't exist and we wouldn't have this terrible problem. Hezbollah achieved the majority of its objectives, while committing far fewer attrocities, in terms of scale and multitude, than Israel. No-one is entirely convinced the UN were making rude gestures at the IDF. :P Oh, and certainly the children at Qana were actually terrorist midgets..  ------------- |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 07:38
And without their external support, Hizbolla would be nothing more than pure civilians fighting with kitchen knives & hand tools. Israels is a progressive state, hisbolla nothing more than a front for others. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 11:39
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.So Israel bombed the city centre and the airport(!) becouse there were hizbolllah camps near the border of Lebanon-Israel????
------------- A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari ) |
Posted By: çok geç
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 04:49
Another incident that proves the kind heart the IDF has. Also they definitely had no option but to bomb this residential area that hosted thirteen sleeping terrorists, including seven very dangerous potential-future-terrorists sleeping children.
source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6127250.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6127250.stm ------------- D.J. Kaufman Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk. |
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 06:01
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New Terrorism Prevention Techniques: Genocide
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Posted By: Maljkovic
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 10:15
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This war was meant to be a pre-emptive strike by Israel to cripple Hizbollah and keep them from making a move first as Iranian agents.
I believe the real irony is that nobody won the war. Hizbollah had no support outside the shiai Lebaneese, and they certainly don't have any now they forced the country into a devastating war. Even before the war, It had become a criminal organization (note I'm not using the word'teroist') instead of a proper militia. They may have the support of the people, but they lost contact with it long time ago, and this "victory" will only amplify the process. In the long run, Hizbollah will lose. And there was no great genius on the part of the Hizbollah in defeating the IDF. It was the arrogance of it's commanders and underestimating their enemy that brought on Israel's defeat. The main problem the IDF had in south Lebanon were Hizbollah's defensive positions, namely a large tunnel network. Had they continued hitting it for a few more weeks, they would have surely of penetrated that line and gotten to Litani river as they intended. If they had not underestimated Hizbollah, they would have had a real fighting plan and would not have had problems with intel, supply and lack of manpower. There will be a sequel to this war, and this time I'm betting on Israel. |
Posted By: Maljkovic
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 10:17
No, that is an old tehnique. I believe even Ghengis Khan had used it... |
Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 15:03
Good thought, but technically Genghis Khan did not use genocide in accordance to the definiton. I'm sure Zaitsev is aware of the antics of Genghis Khan regarding his so called 'terror tactics' which he implemented - rather than blunt genocide. In saying this however, recently, the idea of using genocide as a terrorist prevention technique has all but vanished (save a few cultures). Therefore it can be regarded as a 'new' prevention technique; also because of the way in which we would undertake genocide nowadays - the political/social attitudes surrounding it. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 00:54
The first paragraph there is nothing but an excuse, which has absolutely no grounding in reality. The second paragraph is also flawed beyond belief. Hezbollah did not force the country to war, Israel did. To say it had become a criminal organisation with no contact before the war is just foolish. Hezbollah were popular with the people as they built schools, mosques and other community buildings, not to mention helping repair from the previous occupation. Before the war they had a support of just over 50%. Several independent surveys were conducted toward the end of the war, all of which suggested Hezbollah support had risen above 90% due to Israel's attocities. To say they have lost support is simply nonsense. The IDF WOULD have gotten to the river indeed. Then what? They would slowly but surely get slaughtered at the hands of Hezbollah troops who became extremely efficient in taking down IDF armour and in the hit and run tactics that allowed them to have a very good kill to death ratio. The IDF surely under-estimated the enemy, but that statement alone means the enemy had to surpass expectations. ------------- |
Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 06:11
No i dont think so. Hezbollah cant slauhter IDF soldiers. Ok maybe they could stop them but they cant wipe out them. They dont have efficient weapons against Israel airforce. ------------- |
Posted By: Kerimoglu
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 06:26
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Guys I am in side of Israel. I have personel reasons for it and i do not want to write them here becouse it may violate some of the rules/laws of the forum.
But one this frustrated me so much that, Israel attached Lebanon and Lebanon did did not even react except some field guerilla fighters called Hezbollah. I mean, wasnt there enough arabs in Lebanon or didnt they have army to rise and fight as a man? what was the reason? Like, I personally believe that if someone attacks to may country with any reason, not depending on Politics or Economics or whatever it is, I would go and fight. I believe that Lebanon government didnt have any courage to do that.
Thank You.
Respectfully Nijat Garayev ------------- History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow! |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 07:29
isreali planes were not effecient weapons agianst hezbillah either. Its a army-guerrilla stalemate that should be avoided as much as possible. hezbollah cannot outrightly defeat isreal but isreal cant outrightly defeat hezbollah; not unless it actually systematically kills off the population that support it or basically level lebanon. If Isreal cant outrightly militarily defeat them in any other way then Isreal risks being defeated politically. If it goes hard on the lebanese that would put them in a position of total war with at least all of lebanon + Iran/Syria and lose even more international credibility and support. This war has already lost them a potential future ally in lebanon which was going through its own pro-syrian vs anti-syrian battle. So we now have a case of the military option being the most costly for isreal and the one with the most risks, once upon a time it was the easiy option. Isreal needs to change with the times - people have learnt to fight it well and have a case to be heard. -------------
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Posted By: Maljkovic
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 09:54
No, the first paragraph is the real reason, the kidnapped soldiers were the excuse. I'm sure that to the end of the war they had higher support. That's logical-the winner is always more popular than the loser. But with the war over, Lebanon will face a simple fact: Israel has left, Hizbollah has stayed. Hizbollah means Syria, and Syria means more trouble for Lebanon than Israel could ever be. |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 05:32
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Here is some battle footage... Interesting stuff.
Three Merkavas being obliterated. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkwPKPD0Zf0 They look pretty elite, here they are in combat ending with the capture of IDF fighters and Lebanese traitors: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DIDLLFg9-c&NR http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p88GAnDZoY&mode=related&search= So much for hiding behind civilians! This was real conventional warfare - Israel took a thrashing out int eh open field, no doubt about it. ------------- |
Posted By: rock strongo
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 09:23
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So what if Hezbollah won? It changes absolutely nothing. The state of Israel still exists, and Palestinians still don't have a homeland and never, ever, ever, ever will. Hezbollah dug in nicely over a period of years and was able to withstand Israel. Here's a quote, "The "target stretching" escalated throughout the conflict; frustrated by their inability to identify and destroy major Hezbollah military assets, the IAF began targeting schools, community centers and mosques under the belief that their inability to identify and interdict Hezbollah bunkers signaled Hezbollah's willingness to hide their major assets inside civilian centers." I sure want those Hezbollah guys protecting me and my family. Their best interests would mesh nicely with mine. I guess its an honor to get killed in such a manner to be a statistic and photo op for faith though..My son was martyred, enjoy your virgins son, gosh willing I'll be there soon too if I can just become an innocent bystander... My comdedy routine aside, the article points out the Israel gets US leftovers. Do you really think that Israel would lose a war with the US "A" game weapons? Israel would nuke its neighbors anyway to spite its face if it has to.
I like how you've pointed out what amounts to a meaningless conflict in the global scheme of things. The US could take out the entire rathole of the middle east if they felt like it. Believe it! Its only one stupid terrorist action away from happening and then all those yahoos will be martyrs leaving the world of the living to more rational peoples.
Iran, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon are worth absolutely nothing to the world past the availability of their oil reserves. What's going to happen when another power besides fossil fuels runs the US and Europe? Do you think the Chinese and the Russians will be as kind to the Middle East as the horrible Americans? Surely not.. ------------- Alcohol and night swimming, its a winning combination. |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 10:58
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Nice rant, but completely irrelevant. Though I'll humour it:
Hezbollah employed better tactics and had better soldiers than the IDF, that is all they had. All of their weapons caches are deep underground in the hills. they even have dummy bunkers that they made sure the spies of their enemies would see constructed and thus and wastefully bomb. FYI: Syria and Lebanon have no oil reserves to speak of. so obviously they have some other worth, perhaps the fact that they are among the only countries who can humiliate this brash, clumsy and idiotic American administration. That certainly has a lot of worth and the majority of people from the lesser nations in the world, from South America to Asia and Africa really get a good kick out of that. And that is not to mention a whole lot in the West. That aside, I really do think China and Russia would not be as bad. I mean so far as I know they have not proliferated WMD to the region, invaded nor harrassed any nation, brought down any democracies, at least within the last 60 years - supported tyrants? Well, who doesn't? Soon US imperialism will be shaken from the region and all of its puppets and protectorates will cave in, and what will rise will not be pretty... ------------- |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 12:44
It was fighting based on 'interest groups' and not on national basis. Majority christians did not feel their interests were threatened and therefore did not care. Some felt lebanese before christian or shia and supported the hizbollah efforts. Some Sunnis and druze were also watching on the sidelines, contently watching and hoping for Hizbollah to be politically and militarily weakened.
Some were least inclined to fight, because of the equation->Israeli military= USA+Israel might. ------------- |
Posted By: rock strongo
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 13:58
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I knew I could get you to talk the terrorist talk. What's that sound you guys make before you smite the infidel? My friends and I were wondering.
I never liked Bush and didn't vote for him. I think he invaded Iraq to save his failed presidency during the recession. I guess they found a bunch of goats there though. We can probably agree on that.
Everyone hates the US, I know. IF Palestine hadn't sided with the Germans in two world wars they'd probably have a country today, BUT to the victors go the spoils.
What is the ugly thing that will rise? Unless its a weapon made of camel feces I'm not worried.
Goodluck with your terrorism thing, I like most Americans won't be caring in the least about middle eastern problems tonight. One stupid act on American soil again is all it will take and the whole US monster will be unleashed on the goats and sand area.
------------- Alcohol and night swimming, its a winning combination. |
Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 17:18
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By whom? And by what means? By the roughly 2,000,000-strong higly trained but volunteer US military? We're already up to our asses in sh*t in Iraq and it's not getting any better. The army is already way OVERCOMITTED with no other global capability as long as it has to maintain 2/3 of its front line units in the sh*thole of Iraq ('scuse my 'french"). The Army National Guard is running itself into the ground. Longer tour of duties increase strains on our Guardsmen/women, sap morale, increase casualties. Furthermore, upon arrival back home Guard units demobilize and everyone goes home, meeting again on the required one weekend a month to train. Thus all the expertise won at the front line and in close combat with the enemy remains under-utilized. The Guard is clearly not cut for long wars. The VA is in dire straits to provide care for increasing numbers of veterans in need of medical AND psychological care. Once admitted, our veterans do receive great care indeed, administered by some of the best personnel and with some of the best technology on Earth; but the waiting process is very long, sometimes up to 6-8 months. Results in the treatment of PTSD are unsatisfactory as well. Most veterans get very little out of counseling and continue to have things like reccuring nightmares. In my oppinion VA is not cut to deal with long lists of casualties. Nothing or anyone in this country is cut for a long war, regardless of the macho talk on a big part of the populace . The political system is ripe with special interests and contribution money that really define foreign policy. We are having in effect a representational oligarchy, dominated by the interests of the big corporations. These interest are NOT parallel to the interests of the nation and the empire. Bush did not invade Iraq in a bid for reelection; he invaded Iraq because Bechtel, Halliburton, Exxon/Mobil and the myriad lesser groups he represents told him to do so. And that's why our boys and girls are dying and getting maimed as I'm typing these words over there right now and it's a f**kin' SHAME AND A DISGRACE.Noone even gives a sh*t amongst the population either. We're yelling big words and shaking our fists in the air but who is going to fight these wars? Have you looked at the urban cituation in the US today? All I see is dissafected youth trying to walk straight with their pants down on their knees and in search for the quick buck just like everyone else. Where are the values of civic pride, honor, and patriotism that carry western nations in times of war? Who's gonna give a sh*t and go fight a war in a society were people get shot at schools by their schoolmates, others get mugged while waiting in line to buy PS3, and making money is the predominant value replacing family, nation, and honor? The "system" is rotten, my friend, and needs massive overhaul. If we decide we want to run world empires, serious repairs are needed. I'm afraid that the limitations set by our constitutionalism and the apathy of the public would bar any effort to an attempt for serious change. So, it's better to call it a day, go home, and return to the traditional isolationism of this country.Noone is really ready to bear the burden. We're too soft and consumeristic, too weak to fight. Empires are serious bussiness and running them properly is something the West has had in her blood since ancient times. Ain't an easy job, though and it takes a WHOLE nation and proper leaders, clean from corporate--and other-- $$$ and interests that result in a biased foreign policy. Military values and honor must become part of the pride of this nation which so far consists of fat people driving F-350's with "Power of Pride" bumper stickers on them. Where has it happened before that the C-in-C who leads to war is himself a coward who went AWOL when his turn to serve came up? What Roman legion would've stood for such nonsense? Or the fact that there is only ONE member of Congress with a son/daughter in the military? Why, in a properly run Empire political appointment is the RESULT of military service, not the other way around! ------------- " I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so." |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 21:14
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All said & done, can we draw the following conclusions then: Primary conclusion = Hizbolla is the most powerfull fighting system in the world. It has routed all its opponents including the western world. Implications / derived conclusions : 1. the arabs & the muslims world does not want an independent pelestine Or the victory of Hizbollah. 2. It sheds empty glycerine tears on the plights of these terrorists. 3. they in their heart want Hizbollah to be defeated but are so terrified of the Hizbollah (which is the most efficient & deadly, lethal fighting machine in the world) so that Hizbolla doesnt rule them. 4. For the above reason all muslim countries except the creators of hizbolla support the enemeies of Hizbolla. 5. izbolla is definitley infinitely more powerfull thatn israel, US & the whole of the Wester world taken together, but it is the support of the muslim nations that keeps israel in existence. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Worldhistory
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 21:41
Muslims and Jews are one and the same and neither of them originate from that region.
It's just a scam to parasite off Europeans and European technology.
Many Arabs, let them be Jews or Muslims, have been able to migrate to Western nations on the "lets feel sorry for them factor" they constantly create with these fake battles.
Tens of thousands of Lebanese Arabs migrated into Australia based on such fake ME battles.
It's just a scam.
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 22:39
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True to some extent only.
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 02:56
------------- " I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so." |
Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 03:11
Aethereal are the tidings of rain. ------------- " I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so." |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 15:55
What an amusing and typically brainless repsonse! Goodbye strongo. The forum's average IQ has just just shot up, though it is still somewhat below what we were used to. ------------- |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 16:16
I think your nonsense is more suited to a place such as Stormfling, or whatever it's called. Or you can put up your conspiracy theories for discussion in a relevant sub-forum. I am sure some of our distinguished members would love to lock horns with you on those wild claims. ------------- |
Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 20:25
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I, an undistinguished one, am polishing the tips (of the horns) and I'm not even Arabic. It's OK, it'll be the second thrashing after the nonsense on the "Arabs and Spanish" thread.
------------- " I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so." |
Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 20:29
During the latest round, neither side's objectives were to maintain or destroy the states of Israel or Palestine like you suggest.
The objectives of each side were different:
IDF had 2 objectives:
- get back the 2 captured IDF solders.
- disarm Hezbollah.
Hezbollah had 1 objective:
- prevent IDF from achieving their 2 objectives.
IDF failed both their objectives and Hezbollah achieved theirs.
Valid.
Firstly, Hezbollah and those families are the same people. Hezbollah ARE those families, and those families ARE Hezbollah. Hezbollah is a people's resistance movement against a decades old occupation (an occupation ruled illegal by the U.N. decades ago).
Secondly, about the usage of civilian infrastructure by Hezbollah; it's quite possible that Hezbollah did this, but that doesn't change the fact that IDF is a state military governed by certain rules of engagement based on international laws & accords about war crimes. Such laws/rules prohibit the systematic shelling, bombing, and leveling of entire densely populated residential neighborhoods.
Whatever.
Result would've been the same.
To save its physical existence it might do that, but to save "face"? You must be kidding.
Whatever.
Those countries are treasures of human culture.
What would happen is that foreigners would finally stop meddling in their affairs.
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 20:42
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all boils down to one simple conclusion. If the hizbolla was as powerfull a terrorist organization as it is being made out to be that it has defeated, routed, destroyed, humiliated one of the most powerfull military machines of the world, why don't they take it further and achieve all their goals. Surely they are the most deadly fighters , best trained, best motivated, have best strategies, best tactics............ What prevents these superhuman heroes from completing their heroic victory ? Or is it that they in reality do not want the problem to be solved, lest the solution finishes off the only plausible reason fpor their existence ? ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 21:02
Your "Muslims and Jews are one and the same" comment can & should be interpreted positively, and in that sense I agree with you. It can also be argued however, because it's not entirely accurate.
Wrong.
Now, you're going off into the separate issue of how & why some refugees exaggerate claims because they feel it will increase their chances of entry. Anti-immigrationism is indeed contagious.
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Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 21:21
I don't believe Hezbollah think they can do that. I believe Hezbollah understand that they cannot destroy Israel, instead, they can only fight them in a defensive/guerilla style setting on their own land.
It' hard to agree with you that Hezbollah would not want Israel to release the thousands of Lebanese political prisoners that were detained during decades of illegal occupation and still remain illegally held today in Israeli military prisons. Equally hard to agree that Hezbollah would not want Israel to complete it's withdrawl from all illegally occupied Lebanese land.
Now, as for Hezbollah using the conflict to justify their existence, it's a logical assumption also.
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 21:54
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My post was not against the Hizbolla, It was targetted at those people with no knowledge of counter terrorism who seem to make out that Hizbolla are the braves, deadliest etc....etc.... fighters & they will rout the wester forces. What happened in this case was just a tactical miscalculation by Israel, which if it wants it can correct in no time & none of the so called supporters of Hizbolla will have the guts to rise against Israel. It's a bad statement to make & looks even worse to read, but is it not the truth ? How of many of these sympathizers had the guts to rise against the western combine when the mercilessly butchered more than half a million armed to the teeth professional fightors of Iraq ? ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 22:27
Thinking Hezbollah issue can be solved through so called anti-terrorist tactics might be a mistake.
The tactical miscalculation you're talking about is that they underestimated Hezbollah's ability to resist them, and yes, that has been corrected already; now, IDF is more aware of Hezbollah's ability to resist.
See above.
Iraq? I believe the Iraqi resistance is quite existent and I hear many top U.S. leaders beginning to say that a military solution will probably not get rid of it either. I'm afraid you're mistaken in thinking that the "merciless butchery of more than half a million Iraqis" would diminish the Iraqi motivation to resist, when it only increased it.
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 23:28
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Hellios, just a bit of correction the iraqi deaths I am talking about are not those of the resistance. their deaths number in thousands only. The one's I am talking about are the ones that occured during the invasion, when no body had the guts to resist the western forces. The present resistance is entirely Iraqi, even today everybody cries hoarse about the west's actions in Iraq, but nobody has the guts to resist them. So also is be the case with Hizbolla. It is they who resist. Nobody has the guts to support them apart from shelling hollow tears for them. Secondly the issue of anti terrorist tactics, such tactics can never succeed when any muslims terrorists are fighting against non muslims. I never said that they can succeed, because we see it here everyday. The moot point was Hizbolla's co called much acclaimed victory over Israel, which the suupporters of Hizbolla call a victory of bravery etc.... while I maintained my point that it was just a small tactical confusion, after which Israel has again repeatedly bombarded Lebonan & killed many people. It was more of a laid back reaction by Israel resulting from their underestimation or lack of inteligence of the levels of arming & planning of the Hizbolla, rather than any bravery or brilliance on their part. Had it really been brilliance of the izbolla, why are they keeping quiet after that brilliant display of fighting when the Israleis resumed their offensive ? ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 23:56
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“The intolerance of narrow monotheism is written in letters of blood across the history of man from the time when first the tribes of Israel burst into the land of Canaan. The worshippers of the one Jealous God are egged on to aggressive wars against people of alien cults. They invoke Divine Sanction for the cruelties inflicted on the conquered. The spirit of old Israel is inherited by Christianity and Islam. He went on to remark: “Wars of Religion which are the outcome of fanaticism that prompts and justifies the extermination of aliens of different creeds are practically unknown in Hindu India.” (source: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0020888309/qid=1044031846/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/002-4287918-1447203?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 - The Hindu View of Life - By S. Radhakrishnan p. 40). For more on Dr. S. Radhakrishnan refer to chapter on http://www.hinduwisdom.info/quotes21_40.htm - Quotes . |
http://www.hinduwisdom.info/quotes21_40.htm#Q24 - Dr. Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 01:03
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He was perfectly right, so is your intention in selecting the material for the above post. Hats off to you.
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 03:09
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What a great man, but unfortunately the intolerance has spread to include polytheists too.
--- In Iraq, there was no organised resistance, all of the army disbanded (prior to the invasion most of IRaq's top brass had been bribed) and went home save for 10,000 or so republican guard who didn't have much will to fight either... It can be said that at first the deposing of Saddam was welcomed by the Iraqis... It is once they saw that their occupiers were only better than Saddam in name that major resistance started. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 16:27
| Full conscription is the answer to all of America's military problems and it hasn't been used since WW2. An act of terrorism bad enough to bring that back will creat the manpower and the will necessary to beat any foes. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 16:52
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From Haaretz: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/744436.html - Cry to those using babies by Naomi Ragen. (via http://betbender.blogspot.com/ - At Level Ground ) "They [Hezbollah] are a lousy army. They only win when they hide behind baby carriages." |