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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Turkey in Iraq?
    Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 10:02
Originally posted by Kapikulu

I see no possible inconvenience within the international law which allows Turkey to make an operation into Northern Iraq within the limits of the aim, the fight against terrorism. If the neighboring state, or their big boss are not willing to help and continue with detaining tactics, then there is no point for seeking "diplomatic" approach to fight terrorism.
 
However, Turkish governments, have done, irrevocably huge mistakes in the past which are among the causes of the current scene.
I totally agree with that, I don't doubt Turkey's right and past mistakes. Though i think any move to invade will be as effective as what the US or Israel have achieved with such actions. The political and economic policy of the AKP were gaining ground in the Kurdish areas and I think the PKK had to raise the stakes and force this situation in order to stay relevant. This will drive the Turks into a more hard line posture, force the AKP to be the tough guys - shelf their reforms, and basically drive a wedge between the two communities. In such a situation this organization will thrive not die.

Its not that Baghdad wont help, i don't think they can. That territory the PKK are holed up is in the KRG's hands, not the central government. The central government could not even have the force get into the KRG if it wanted to. While the kurds fighting their own, in very hard guerrilla territory, while they have Wahabis and all sorts of violence on their border is a much tougher and complex choice than first appears.

As for the US this Kurds says it well (from a great article which i may quote fully in the next post)


The United States "is like a man with two wives," said one Iraqi Kurd in Sulaimaniya. "They quarrel, but he doesn't want to lose either of them."
Source



Edited by Leonidas - 30-Oct-2007 at 10:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 11:39
The Turks can make life v difficult for the PKK. The sad fact is that short of near genocidal tactics it is v difficult to defeat such an insurgency.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 11:44
here it is its a little long but describes the scene and issue quite well.

Noted is that the PKK seem to be both brothers and a somewhat foreign pain in the arse to the local Kurds, judging from some of those comments.



In the rugged north of Iraq, Kurdish rebels flout Turkey
By Sabrina Tavernise
Sunday, October 28, 2007

RANIYA, Iraq: A low-slung concrete building off a steep mountain road marks the beginning of rebel territory in this remote corner of northern Iraq. The fighters based here, Kurdish militants fighting Turkey, fly their own flag, and despite urgent international calls to curb them, they operate freely, receiving supplies in beat-up pickup trucks less than 10 miles from a government checkpoint.

"Our condition is good," said one fighter, putting a heaping spoonful of sugar into his steaming tea. "How about yours?" A giant face of the rebels' leader Abdullah Ocalan, now in a Turkish prison has been painted on a nearby slope.

The rebel group, the Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK, is at the center of a crisis between Turkey and Iraq that began when the group's fighters killed 12 Turkish soldiers on Oct. 21, prompting Turkey, a NATO member, to threaten an invasion.

But the PKK continues to operate casually here, in full view of Iraqi authorities. The PKK's impunity is rooted in the complex web of relationships and ambitions that began with the American-led invasion of Iraq more than four years ago, and has frustrated others with an interest in resolving the crisis the Turks, Iraqis and the Bush administration.

The United States responded to the PKK raid by putting intense pressure on Iraq's Kurdish leaders who control the northern area where the rebels hide, with a senior State Department official delivering a rare rebuke last week over their "lack of action" in curbing the PKK

But even with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice scheduled to visit Istanbul this week, Kurdish political leaders seemed in no hurry to act.

An all-out battle is out of the question, they argue, because the rugged terrain makes it impossible to dislodge them.

"Closing the camps means war and fighting," said Azad Jindyany, a senior Kurdish official in Sulaimaniya, a regional capital. "We don't have the army to do that. We did it in the past, and we failed."

But even logistical flows remain uninterrupted, despite the fact that Iraqi Kurdish leaders have some of the most precise and extensive intelligence networks in the country. As the war has worsened, the United States has come to depend increasingly on the Kurds as partners in running Iraq and as overseers of the one part of the country where some of their original aspirations are actually being met.

Iraqi Kurdish officials, for their part, appear to be politely ignoring American calls for action, saying the only serious solution is political, not military. They have taken their own path, allowing the guerrillas to exist on their territory, while at the same time quietly trying to persuade them to stop attacks.

"They have allowed the PKK to be up there," said Mark Parris, a former American ambassador to Turkey who is now at the Brookings Institution. "That couldn't have happened without their permitting them to be there. That's their turf. It's as simple as that."

The situation poses a puzzle to the United States, which badly wants to avert a new front in the war, but finds itself forced to choose between two trusted allies Turkey, a NATO member whose territory is the transit area for most of its air cargo to Iraq, and the Kurds, their closest partners in Iraq.

The United States "is like a man with two wives," said one Iraqi Kurd in Sulaimaniya. "They quarrel, but he doesn't want to lose either of them."

Kurds are one of the world's largest ethnic groups without a state, numbering more than 25 million, spread across Turkey, Iraq, Iran, and Syria.

Most live in Turkey, which has curtailed their rights, fearing secession. The PKK wants an autonomous Kurdish area in eastern Turkey, and has repeatedly attacked the Turkish military, and sometimes the civilian population, since the 1980s, in a conflict that has left more than 30,000 dead.

In this small town a short drive from the edge of rebel territory, and in Sulaimaniya, 55 miles to the south, it is business as usual. A political party affiliated with the rebel group is open and holding meetings. Pickup trucks zip in and out of the group's territory, and a government checkpoint a short drive away from the area acts as a friendly tour guide. Its soldiers said they had waved through eight cars of journalists on one day last week.

Mala Bakhtyar, a senior member in the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, the party that governs this northeastern region, said there had been no explicit orders from Baghdad to limit the PKK, and scoffed at last week's statement by the Iraqi prime minister, Nuri Kamal al-Maliki, that Iraq would close the PKK's offices, saying they had already been shut long ago.

"They are guests, but they are making their living by themselves," Bakhtyar said. "We don't support them."

He added: "We don't agree with them. We don't like to make a fight with Turkey."

Fayeq Mohamed Goppy, a leader in the Kurdistan Democratic Solution Party, an offshoot of the PKK that still operates freely, argues that Iraqi Kurdish leaders are only paying lip service to wanting the PKK to leave. In reality, the politicians want the separatists around as protection against Sunni Arab extremists, who most Iraqi Kurds believe will move in if the PKK leaves the mountains.

Noshirwan Mustafa, a prominent Kurdish leader, said the area was as impenetrable as the mountains in Pakistan where leaders of Al Qaeda and the Taliban are thought to be hiding. "For me, the PKK is better than the Taliban," he said.

Local Kurdish authorities have asked Goppy to keep a low profile, including canceling a planned conference in Erbil, he said, but otherwise have not limited his activities.

"They really don't want PKK to go," he said in an interview in his home in Sulaimaniya. If the group is eliminated, the Iraqi Kurdish area "is a really small piece for eating, very easy to swallow."

Parris argues that the Kurdish leader of northern Iraq, Massoud Barzani, ever astute, is holding onto the PKK as a future bargaining chip with Turkey, and will not use it until he absolutely has to.

"The single most important piece of negotiating capital may very well be his ability to take care of the PKK," he said.

Jindyany said local authorities would be happy to get rid of them if they could, calling the situation a sword of Damocles for Iraqi Kurds.

Throughout its history in northern Iraq, which dates back to the early 1980s, under an agreement with Barzani, the PKK has had contentious relations with Iraqi Kurdish leaders. It fought in their civil wars, against Barzani in 1997, and three years later, against Jalal Talabani, a powerful Kurd who is now the president of Iraq.

But since the American invasion in 2003, the political landscape has changed. Iraqi Kurds, emboldened by their secure position, have stopped fighting each other and turned their attentions to other threats like Turkey, a state that has long oppressed its Kurdish population, and Islamic extremism from Baghdad.

This area of northern Iraq, which Iraqis call Kurdistan, in some ways eclipsed the PKK's struggle for an autonomous Kurdish area, Iraqi Kurds said.

"They were jealous of our autonomy," said Goran Kader, a Communist Party leader in Sulaimaniya. "They wanted to do the same thing in Turkey."

At the same time, the PKK was reorganizing, after its leader, Ocalan, was captured in 1999, and a skilled group of military commanders took over day-to-day operations, said Aliza Marcus, the author of "Blood and Belief: The PKK and the Kurdish Fight for Independence."

The commanders were intent on military escalation, she said, and stepped up attacks, under Ocalan's jailhouse orders, in part to remain relevant.

"They don't want to be sidelined," Marcus said. "That's really what's driven them since 2004," when attacks resumed after a five-year cease-fire. "They want to say, 'Turkish Kurds are important too don't think the Kurdish problem has been solved.' "

The ambush of Turkish soldiers on Oct. 21, which took place just a few miles from the Iraqi border, served the purpose perfectly.

Public sympathy in Raniya and Sulaimaniya is enormous, and the fighters procure supplies and health care here with ease. Fighters do not go to hospitals, for fear of standing out the ones from Turkey speak a different Kurdish dialect but are treated in doctors' homes, said one former fighter, an Iraqi Kurd who was recruited at age 14.

"Their organization is everywhere," said the fighter, who now works as a police officer for the main political party, after surrendering to local authorities in 2003. "Their members are everywhere."

To Iraqi Kurds, Turkey's approach is pure politics. There is no military solution to the problem of the PKK, they say, because the terrain would never permit victory, and Turkey's leaders know that.

The solution, Mustafa argued, lies with moderates in Turkey, who must push for an amnesty for the rebels. Militant Kurds, for their part, should take advantage of the political opening in Turkey 20 Kurdish deputies are now serving in Parliament there.

"When you have the door to the Parliament open, why are you going to the caves?" he said.

To that aim, talks were held with intermediaries for the PKK, Bakhtyar said. Since then, the rebels have not attacked, and officials and security analysts say that if the quiet holds until Turkey's prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, meets with Rice on Friday and with President George W. Bush three days later, he might not be pressured into military action.

"Soon there will be snow," Kader said. "The roads will be blocked. That will be that until next year."

IHT



Edited by Leonidas - 30-Oct-2007 at 11:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 13:50
Though I agree that Kurdish Iraq is obstinate to Turkey's demands and is reluctant to hand over the PKK or 'even a Kurdish cat' they should realize that with control comes responsibility. Meaning, if you harbor terrorists then either turn them in or keep them from cross border operations.
 
I don't see any barrier that could stop Turkey from a succsessful incursion. The mountainous regions can be overrun with more ease than the PKK is letting on. Once that zone is cleared Turkey should make it a buffer zone. The cities would be a different issue. Not becuase of logistics or any military problem but a political pain.
 
The emotions are at a fever pitch in Turkey. Some air raids and bombardments are the norm now. Yet no call for land operations on a grand scale.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 14:13
Is Turkey planning incursion or invasion?
By Jim Muir
BBC News, Baghdad
 
The current crisis on the Turkish-Iraqi border comes against the background of a long and complicated relationship between Ankara and the Iraqi Kurdish region in northern Iraq.

Several times in the 1990s, Iraqi Kurdish peshmerga fighters fought alongside the Turkish army inside northern Iraq, to try to dislodge militants of the Turkish rebel Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) from the rugged and remote border mountains where they were dug in.

But now the signs are that a major Turkish land incursion, if it went beyond the border mountains, would likely collide with Iraqi Kurdish forces, anxious to defend the autonomous region of Iraqi Kurdistan where they have been running their own affairs since the early 1990s.

Tensions between Turkey and the Iraqi Kurdish region had been rising steadily in the months running up to the current crisis, triggered by PKK attacks which have killed some 40 Turkish troops in recent weeks.

In May, Turkey was angered when the three provinces of Iraqi Kurdistan were handed security control by the US-led multinational forces, and promptly raised the Kurdish flag instead of the Iraqi one.

Turkish sensitivities have been further aggravated by the approach of the deadline for a referendum in the oil-rich Kirkuk province - currently outside Iraqi Kurdistan - on whether it wants to join the three Kurdish-majority provinces currently making up the autonomous Kurdish region.

Under the new Iraqi constitution, the referendum was supposed to be held by the end of this year, but will quietly slide as the necessary preparations, such as a census, have yet to be carried out.

The Turks fear the acquisition of the Kirkuk fields will bolster de facto Iraqi Kurdish independence.

So it is hardly surprising that the massing of Turkish armour and troops on the border is now being seen by Iraqi Kurds as heralding a blow to their autonomy under the cover of an attack on the PKK.

Many believe that two PKK raids, which killed 25 Turkish soldiers and led to the current crisis, were stage-managed by the Turks to provide the pretext for an incursion.

One Iraqi Kurdish leader quoted a PKK source as saying: "We didn't mount raids on them, they attacked us and we just defended ourselves."

"Tanks are useless in the kind of mountainous terrain where the PKK are operating," said one senior Kurdish source.

"And you don't need 100,000 troops to take their positions. What they're clearly planning to do is to stage a major incursion and take control of the major land routes inside Iraqi Kurdistan leading up into the border mountains from the Iraqi side."

Such an invasion would carry a clear risk of collision with the Iraqi Kurdish forces.

Sources in both the major factions, the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP) of Masoud Barzani, and the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK), headed by the Iraqi President, Jalal Talabani, said their troops were preparing for a confrontation, while trying to avoid one.

There is speculation in Kurdish circles that the Turks might also try to bomb or otherwise neutralise the two Iraqi Kurdish airports, at Irbil and Sulaymaniyah, which Ankara asserts have been allowing PKK fighters to move in and out of the area.

The airports are also seen as proud symbols of Iraqi Kurdish autonomy.

The scale of the Turkish mobilisation on the border is one factor that has persuaded Baghdad and the Iraqi Kurds that the Turkish agenda goes beyond simply dealing with the PKK.

"There are no Iraqi or Kurdish forces between the Turkish army and the PKK fighters - they are in direct contact," said Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari in a BBC interview.

"The Turks could wipe them out or bomb them as they have done in the past. What they are proposing is something larger than that.

"They are talking about a large-scale military incursion, which is getting people extremely, extremely nervous and worried."

"The concern of many people is that Turkish ambition may stretch beyond taking out the PKK."

Diplomatic insult

Another factor that has convinced Baghdad and the Iraqi Kurds that Turkey is implacably bent on a major incursion is the frosty reception given to the high-ranking Iraqi government delegation that flew to Ankara for crisis talks at the end of last week.

They were received in a manner that in protocol terms was diplomatically insulting.

More than that, the Turkish side received the Iraqi proposals impassively, did not discuss them, and did not present any suggestions of their own, according to senior Iraqi officials.

Turkey has watched the development of Iraqi Kurdish autonomy with misgivings, anxiety and ill-concealed hostility.

But at the same time Turkish companies have been profitably involved in the economic and construction boom and oil developments in Iraqi Kurdistan.

This factor may militate against a major intervention, but also might not be strong enough to withstand the tide of Turkish public demand for action.

Will Turkey go ahead with a major incursion, and how deep and far will it go?

The answer will emerge from the complex and unpredictable interaction between various elements.

Inside Turkey, there is the fury currently ruling public opinion and the uneasy relationship between its powerful military and its civilian government.

Other factors that will influence the outcome include the troubled state of affairs between Ankara and Washington, America's dilemma - caught in the crossfire between two allies - and the Iraqi Kurds' own ambivalent ties with Baghdad.

Iraq and its Kurds are hoping the situation on the ground will remain calm, and that international diplomatic pressures will defuse the crisis.

A big conference of Iraq's neighbours and major international players in Istanbul on 2-3 November, along with Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's visit to Washington on 5 November could improve the situation.

The least they can hope for at present is that the Turks will focus any action strictly on the PKK in the border mountains.
 
 

 

By antioxos at 2007-08-20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 18:12
The only people BBC ever called terrorists were the IRA, regarding such issues they are hardly objective I take what they report with a pinch of salt.
 
 - They try to make "Pkk Terrorist Organisation" the voice of Kurds, instead of seperating terrorism and the average Kurd, they insist of sticking the two together. Its like saying all muslims are terrorists, or that terror groups are the sole voice of all muslims.
 
 - They only report the transcripts of speech from one side, all the pieces of speech in the article are attacking and waffling about conspiracies regarding what some paranoid people are saying. They even give "Pkk" a voice, not only that, allow them to use the BBC as a tool of their propoganda. Somebody not familiar with Pkk would could be easily misled into thinking, poor Pkk they are suffering the agression of the terrirble Turks.
 
 - There is not a sentance written about the official Turkish position, which is they have no intentions of an invasion. 
 
 
The article is ridiculously biased and un-objective.
 
Why can't they just admit.
 
- Pkk is an internationally recognised terrorist organisation
- They have killed many troops and civillians lately
- They are planning new attacks, recieving logistic support and arms from their bases in Northern Iraq.
- Iraq is habouring various terrorist organisations
- Under International Law Turkey is legally permitted to enter Northern Iraq and fight terrorists attacking her soil.
 
These arn't conspiracies or accusations, they are the realities of today.
 


 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 18:25

Bulldog, may I ask, do you believe that Kurds in,  lets say in Diyarbakir, want their own state or do they want to stay with Turkey?

Just want a honest answer.
 
A simple yes or no question.
 
That's all i want, yes or no.
 
 


Edited by Cent - 01-Nov-2007 at 18:26
They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 18:37
You can't allways have what u want
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 20:10

I think that we don't have to wait any further developments this year.

A possibly  operations will start in spring of 2008 , the only disadvantage to this is that units that was moved to the borders  will stay all the winter away from installation camps and this will tire  them physically and mentally .PKK possibly will stay also to the points of dispersion all the winter and this will have the same result to the morale of PKK men but Turkish army has the possibility to replace part of the units and refresh them and at the same time the old parts give the experience to the new part.I dont think that PKK have this "luxury".



Edited by Antioxos - 01-Nov-2007 at 20:11

By antioxos at 2007-08-20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 01:25
Cent
Bulldog, may I ask, do you believe that Kurds in,  lets say in Diyarbakir, want their own state or do they want to stay with Turkey?
 
Let's look at the latest election results.
 
By the math of preliminary results it seems very likely that the 10 seats in the Turkish Parliament reserved for Diyarbakır will be shared by these two parties. The AKP will get six, the DTP, which joined as a coalition of independents, will get four.
 
 
Akp outperformed DTP in its own stronghold.
 
Have you ever been to Diyarbakir? go and find out what the average guy on the street thinks. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 01:58
Originally posted by Bulldog


 
Have you ever been to Diyarbakir? go and find out what the average guy on the street thinks. 
I wouldnt talk optimistic like that, but i highly doubt that they would give the answer(s) you want.

Btw cent or his family isnt from Turkey so, what does he knows or what does he got to tell us?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 11:09
Originally posted by Bulldog

Cent
Bulldog, may I ask, do you believe that Kurds in,  lets say in Diyarbakir, want their own state or do they want to stay with Turkey?
 
Let's look at the latest election results.
 
By the math of preliminary results it seems very likely that the 10 seats in the Turkish Parliament reserved for Diyarbakır will be shared by these two parties. The AKP will get six, the DTP, which joined as a coalition of independents, will get four.
 
 
Akp outperformed DTP in its own stronghold.
 
Have you ever been to Diyarbakir? go and find out what the average guy on the street thinks. 
 
 
I asked do YOU believe.
 
Answer the question, please.
 
 
 
They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 11:20
^Cent  do u believe your signature is accurate?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 12:47
xi_tujue, it's a quotation of Abdul Rahman Qassemlou.
 
He was assassinated by Iran in 1989. And he's talking about Kurds in Iran and specifically his own party KDP-I.
 
So, yes, I think it is accurate, because KDP-I has never hijacked a plane nor taken civilian hostages.
 
 
They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 17:38
^yeah but not all Kurds Belong to the KDP-I.

Than again he got what he wanted they speak more about the Kurds now but sadly I don't think in the way he wantedUnhappy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2007 at 20:43
Originally posted by eaglecap

The Armenians were not the only ones to lose family and property to the Ottoman Turks so when will this end. The Turks should recognize and acknowledge it just like we have done for the Native Americans.
 
Wait a minute here...Wars, conquests, invasions, battles...All was part of this world and every single tribe or whatever has been into the whole thing taking place for thousands of years.
 
It is really inappropriate and quite deliberate to single out Ottoman Turks here as the evil.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2007 at 05:35
The turks cannot be blamed. What they are doing is right. But then the perception being right depends on which side you are in. IF I was  turk or their friend, I would be against the kurds, If I was a kurd or enemy of turks, I would support the kurds. In both cases one would have sufficient reasons to justify the decision. Usually right or wrong in such cases is decided by Mao's principle "Power flows from the barrel of a gun" The victor will write history & will claim himself as having done the right thing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2007 at 06:18
The Turks need to act now. Otherwise they will steadily lose control.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2007 at 09:19
Originally posted by SuN.

The turks cannot be blamed. What they are doing is right. But then the perception being right depends on which side you are in. IF I was  turk or their friend, I would be against the kurds, If I was a kurd or enemy of turks, I would support the kurds. In both cases one would have sufficient reasons to justify the decision. Usually right or wrong in such cases is decided by Mao's principle "Power flows from the barrel of a gun" The victor will write history & will claim himself as having done the right thing.
 
A ver correct statement.
 
If the turks invade, turkey will never be the same again. They have much to loose, and little to win, so this move would be very stupid.
They are doing what they are, because of the kirkuk referendum, they have had all the time in the world to attack the PKK but hasnt done so, but as soon as the referendum is near, behold, turkey wants to invade. They want to destabilize the region, they want to destroy for the kurds, but the are unaware of the changing reality in the middle east, they have the mentality of the Kemal. The kurds are going to have kurdistan, if turkey invades it will happen sooner, if not it will happen later, but whatever the turks do they wont be able to stop the kurds from having their own country.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2007 at 17:21
I don't see A Kurdistan happening mabey 3 semi independent states but 1 don't think so.

Turkey invading Iraq has 2 main reasons.

1. They didn't attack untill now because Sadam was in power
2. PKK was inactive for some time now(people were kinda getting over it)

But recent attacks have restarted teh issue
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