Turkey in Iraq?

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Topic: Turkey in Iraq?

Posted By: Seko
Subject: Turkey in Iraq?
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2007 at 19:54

With the lack of US support against PKK terrorists and the recent Congressional push to acknowledge the events of 1915-WWI Ottoman Empire exiles of Armenians as genocide, Turkey is finding it difficult to still listen to the US.

Not only have bombs been exploding with regularity in Turkey but this week 15 Turks lost their lives to terrorist attacks.

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/7457443.asp?gid=74&sz=55598 - Terror Board decision: If necessary, Turkey will enter Iraq
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/7457443.asp?gid=74&sz=55598">

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan yesterday led a meeting of the High Board on the Struggle Against Terror which dealt with the weekend PKK violence that resulted in the deaths of 15 Turkish soldiers outside of Sirnak and in Diyarbakir.

Kurdish separatist rebels said on Friday they were crossing back into Turkey to target politicians and police after Ankara said it was preparing to attack them in the mountains of northern Iraq.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071012/wl_nm/turkey_iraq_dc_26 - http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071012/wl_nm/turkey_iraq_dc_26

Replies:

Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2007 at 20:21

I'd say it was about time the U.S congress recognized the events that happened in 1915. Turkey needs to admit her mistakes in order to move on.

Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2007 at 22:15

Oh and America's history is so rosy is it...

I guess Australlia should mount a memorial to the Native American and Black African genocide's comitted in America, then Belgium can erect one against France in the Algerian genocide and Japan can lobby against Belgiums genocides in the Congo...

Why don't all polliticians start pretending that they're historians...

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�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2007 at 23:14

Hey we admitted that we commited those atrocities. You can see in American text books that A. Jackson started the trail of tears, and that we used nuclear weapons on the Japanese that had terrible consequences. Those mistakes haunt us, but we admit we commited them

Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 01:28

Turkey accepts during the end of the Ottoman Empire that there were Armenians who were massacred. She doesn't accept that a genocide was comitted. Also, Armenians wern't the only ones to suffer massacres, everybody in the region recieved their fair share of massacres.

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�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 05:28

ok enough of the blacklisted talk.

The events in the M/East are gearing up in a big way. Im certain what we are seeing is the last big flex of the Turkish militarily, if nothing comes from this latests posturing/pressure( and im sure they and most others dont think anything will change) they are going in.

Personally im more interested in what is next for Turkish -US relations.

Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 05:30

I understand the atrocity with the Armenians and while sad I do not think it is in the best interest of America to recognize this when Turkey is a strong Allie of the U.S.A. They help supply food and water to our troops in Iraq so this is bad timing, so are they going to be at odds with us now? I believe Turkey should recognize this atrocity but this is not the way to do it, especially in a time of war for the USA.

Remember I am half Greek and my grandfather's family was killed by the Turks, near Edirne, Turkey, as well but bringing this up will not bring them or even my great grandparents back. I hold no ill will towards the Turks of today since they had nothing to do with it. I would agree that someday Turkey will have to deal with the Armenian issue.

I believe that Turkey should be able to deal with the PKK in Iraq as long as they do not attempt to occupy the region. I do not think the US would allow this.

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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε

Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 05:37

Actually Leo, this topic is normally blacklisted yet since it is now a current event, it's allowed for discussion.

US-Turkish relations is going through a phase. One that has not recovered since 2003. This is the latest segment.

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Posted By: cattus
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 06:49

The enemy is within. Some U.S. politicians are already using Iraq as a political tool, why not Turkey?

Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 11:23

In order to eliminated the phenomenon of PKK it will be supposed they do not have support from the Kurds of south-eastern Turkey in order to happen this they have to extinguish all kinds oppression in the residents of this regions .This is ( my opinion ) the unique medicine for the extermination of PKK .If Turkey invade to Iraq , Pkk will become more strong and the danger of separatism will come more close.Violence bring more violence.

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By http://profile.imageshack.us/user/antioxos - antioxos at 2007-08-20

Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 11:25

Originally posted by Seko

Actually Leo, this topic is normally blacklisted yet since it is now a current event, it's allowed for discussion.

US-Turkish relations is going through a phase. One that has not recovered since 2003. This is the latest segment.

yeah i worked that out afterwards, my bad.

I think this phase is deteriorating into something more critical. Both countries get allot out this partnership, so punitive measure from either side generally will hurt all sides at once. If Turkey blockades the US forces, or worse still steps on their toes by going in deep to Iraq, their relations may never be the same. Ive been a little critical of the partnership because it was based on mutual convenience but passed off as some sort of friendship. If the convenience hits an iceberg the relationship would sink as it not based on anything deeper. thats my opinion.

Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 12:59

Antioxos

The Pkk Terrorist Org is frustrated, they are loosing ground in the South East. It is in its essence, an extremist mono-ethnic anti-religous movement centred aroound the cult of Abdullah Ocalan.

In the last election the Pkk's unofficial pollitical party lost alot of inflluence in the region to the more religous AKP.

The Pkk's recent outburst of violence has resulted in many civillian casualties in the South East region. There surge of violence has reached its highest level in years.

According to International Law, if your country is being attacked from across the border the victim has the right to tackle those comitting these crimes by crossing into their border.

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�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 13:23

If I was a Kurdish leader, I would be busy being compromising about now. The Kurds are seen as collabrators with the occupiers anyway, and when the Americans leave they are in big trouble.

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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 13:53

Originally posted by Bulldog

The Pkk Terrorist Org is frustrated, they are loosing ground in the South East. It is in its essence, an extremist mono-ethnic anti-religous movement centred aroound the cult of Abdullah Ocalan.

that sounds like another much more powerful organization in Turkey, except the personality cult part follows a different name.

Originally posted by Bulldog

In the last election the Pkk's unofficial pollitical party lost alot of inflluence in the region to the more religous AKP.

Did the DTP lose seats from the previous elections? and on what grounds is the DTP the unofficial party, is it because they are Kurdish?

Originally posted by Bulldog

According to International Law, if your country is being attacked from across the border the victim has the right to tackle those comitting these crimes by crossing into their border.

I agree Turkey has the right in the current environment. The precedence was made when the US attacked Afghanistan and then allowing Isreal to launch their brutal attack on Lebanon. Turkey (rightly or wrongly) can do the same. I dont think it will solve anything, as the last two examples given here have also been failures.

Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 14:39

If the Turks set reasonanble objectives, I don't see why not it can be a sucess.

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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 14:56

Leonadis

that sounds like another much more powerful organization in Turkey, except

Except no major organisation is obsessed with extremist racist mono-ethnic exclusiveness.

People of other ethnicities are accepted as a Turk if they choose to become one, its inclusive and not based upon the notion of "race".

Leonadis

Did the DTP lose seats from the previous elections?

They were annihilated in the recent election by AKP. Even in Diyarbakir AKP won 2 seats more than them.

DTP has had a chance in some regions of the South-East, they blew this opportunity with inept policies, doing nothing to benefit the areas they govern and corruption.

Likewise Pkk hasn't bought the region any prosperity either and is busy robbing, killing and bullying people in some areas.

Today, cities which were once far less developed and prosperous than Diyarbakir are going through rapid growth and advancing, areas like Gaziantep, Malatya, Kahramanmaras are recent success stories and are all regions in the south-east. They are termed as "self-made successes" with the help of "Turkey's or Anatolian Tigers".

Leonadi

and on what grounds is the DTP the unofficial party

They can't call an internationally accepted terrorist group, "Terrorists".

They try to justify there terrorism.

To make a comparison.

If some Brittish Mp's of muslim heritage started refusing to call Al-Qaede terrorists and attempted to justify their actions, they'd be arrested on anti-Terror charges, publically lynched by the press and make into wacky national enemies from within.

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�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 15:00

Leonadis

Depends on the scale of attack and their objectives.

We'll have to wait and see.

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�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Posted By: aslanlar
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 15:52

And i was given an 'official warning' for trying to discuss this...

What would the Turkish goals be from an invasion of Iraq? Would they finally be able to crush the PKK (i honestly doubt it)? What would the future of the kurds be (in their hope of forming a Kurdistan)?
[not sure if the last question can be discussed]

Things are just going downhill between Turkish-US relations. Looks like Turkey will cut-off or restrict US use of Turkish airspace and then next week Turkey will invade Iraq.

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"The league is alright when sparrows dispute but it can do little when eagles argue" -Mussolini

Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 16:29

Originally posted by Bulldog

Antioxos

The Pkk Terrorist Org is frustrated, they are loosing ground in the South East. It is in its essence, an extremist mono-ethnic anti-religous movement centred aroound the cult of Abdullah Ocalan.

In the last election the Pkk's unofficial pollitical party lost alot of inflluence in the region to the more religous AKP.

The Pkk's recent outburst of violence has resulted in many civillian casualties in the South East region. There surge of violence has reached its highest level in years.

According to International Law, if your country is being attacked from across the border the victim has the right to tackle those comitting these crimes by crossing into their border.

The problem i think isn't if the invasion is justified but if Turkey is able to eliminate PKK . My opinion is that a possibly invasion to Iraq will made PKK more strong , they will start "advertise" their martyrs from the "bad" Turks and a new round of extremism will start. Further more PKK will move their bases more high in the mountains there that no regular army can go.

If PKK is an extremist mono-ethnic anti-religious movement centered around the cult of Abdullah Ocalan how can he find supporters in the area . If there is no supporters of PKK in the area no extremists can survive . Here is the critical point how the local people will stop to support PKK.

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By http://profile.imageshack.us/user/antioxos - antioxos at 2007-08-20

Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 17:36

Antioxos

The problem i think isn't if the invasion is justified but if Turkey is able to eliminate PKK . My opinion is that a possibly invasion to Iraq will made PKK more strong.

Killing a few terrorists is not going to end a terrorist organisation and its network.

For the past few years, the Turkish state has had a half-hearted approach to fighting terrorism, the governments didn't want to involve in the fight and left the armed forces to deal with it alone.

This will not end terror it can only curb it.

To fully fight it, the financers, arms suppliers, propoganda wings, strategic resources and all others connected to the organisation need to be killed or arrested.

Currently, the Kurdistan region of Iraq has become a centre from which all the above are being administrated.

The government has realised they need a joint effort, pollitical, millitary and media to fully crumble the Pkk.

If the millitary shows its force in North Iraq taking out Pkk bases and those connected with them. The government closes the border it will show its influence and financial muscle in the region as the Kurdistan region cannot sustain itself without the influx of goods from Turkey.

Antioxos

Further more PKK will move their bases more high in the mountains there that no regular army can go.

They are already high in the mountains.

Antioxos

If PKK is an extremist mono-ethnic anti-religious movement centered around the cult of Abdullah Ocalan how can he find supporters in the area .

They have a few thousand combatents in the moutains. And if we are to take DTP as the unofficial voice of Pkk Terrorism they have lost support as shown in the last election.

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�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 17:58

Originally posted by aslanlar

And i was given an 'official warning' for trying to discuss this...

You have already set a precendent for yourself with the contents of 'A question regarding what i can post' thread. Then you opened a Turkish-Kurdish thread in the wrong forum instead of here in Current Affairs (events) where it would be allowed.

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 21:26

I think that this issue can still be settled diplomatically and so it should. The PKK attacks have a potential of intensifying if correct measures aren't taken. While Turkey has a right to invade and carry out its objectives it may work or not if The PKK gains ground as The defendor. The US as an ally of Turkey should have put higher pressure on Kurdish officials to curb these border incursions by The PKK because they will have more support among The populace than any other force will.

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Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 23:09

PKK begs for Turkey to break into Iraqi Kurdistan, this is why they press their attacks in Turkey lately. That way they'll be able to keep their struggle in the forefront of the news. The Turkish army, even if they'll easily break in, will never be able to hold their ground and soon the losses and the economic cost will mount. So far the Americans are out of the equation as well as the ability of the Kurds to increase attacks in Turkey. An independent Kurdistan will not be far after this. Turkey will never invade, they'll limit their attacks to air and swift raids.

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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin

Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2007 at 04:48

Originally posted by Bulldog

Leonadis

that sounds like another much more powerful organization in Turkey, except

Except no major organisation is obsessed with extremist racist mono-ethnic exclusiveness.

People of other ethnicities are accepted as a Turk if they choose to become one, its inclusive and not based upon the notion of "race".

uhum...'I accept you, but as a turk'. Ermm

Turkey is moving, very slowly and only just recently, beyond the one nation-one language-people jargon. but i dont think we are at that point in time when one can differentiate them from other 'mono ethnic' exclusive groups. It wasnt long in this forum, posters would say that identifying minorities in Turkey is actaully racist and that the one people under the Turkish label and language is providing equality. I guess we should all just speak English, to share the global wealth and be done with it.

Kurdish ethno-nationalism is no different to Greek, Turkish or French ethno-nationalism. It is all based on the same logic, and when we had our own turn in creating our own countries we were (and are) no less racist.

as for the DTP, did they lose seats? thats all i want to know. While them losing ground to the AKP shows one can win over Kurds without firing a shot. The solution will only be found politically, while the make up of new constitution (the shift towards the individual over the state, rather than the present vis versa)will have more of a effect in the longer term than any military operation.

Originally posted by Yiannis

PKK begs for Turkey to break into Iraqi Kurdistan, this is why they press their attacks in Turkey lately. That way they'll be able to keep their struggle in the forefront of the news. The Turkish army, even if they'll easily break in, will never be able to hold their ground and soon the losses and the economic cost will mount.

agreed, there is some of commentary and opinions in http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=123780 - points made more often is that this type of operation has been done before and has ultimately failed. Hence why Erdogan is hesitant, questionable gains loaded up with allot of risk. no doubt the opposition will call this justifiable hesitation 'weak'....

i'll end this post with a good quote

Turkey, by avoiding involvement in the Iraqi morass, escaped being seen as a lackey of the US and gained much respect in the world, especially among Muslim peoples of the Middle East. The �soft power� thus acquired has helped Turkey to reap political and economic benefits. If Turkey has become a source of inspiration for those who demand freedom in the region, it is mostly thanks to non-collaboration with the American invasion. Finally, all know quite well that the roots of and solution to the Kurdistan Workers� Party (PKK) problem is not in Iraq, but in Turkey itself.

08.10.2007
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/yazarAd.do?kn=37 -

Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2007 at 15:52

Leonadis

Turkey is moving, very slowly and only just recently, beyond the one nation-one language-people jargon.

What was that phrase AKP kept using during the election...

"one nation, one flag, one land and one state"

Let's take a look at Europe, for example France, in France everybody is officially French and this reflects on the cencus.

How about in Greece? Turks arn't even allowed to be referred to as "Turks", its still taboo, they are the "Greek muslim minority". Somebody may not like this but this is what Greece has decided and its what they have deemed to be most appropriate in their situation.

Turkey is one nation, one flag, one land and one state, if you don't like it that's your problem.

as for the DTP, did they lose seats?

They lost votes.

However, an analysis of the votes received by the DTP deputies suggests that the party actually lost ground in the July 22 election. The DTP was founded in 2005 as a successor to the Democratic People�s Party (DEHAP), which was closed by the Turkish authorities. In the November 2002 election DEHAP won 27.2% of the popular vote in the 20 largest cities in Turkey�s predominantly Kurdish eastern and southeastern provinces. On July 22, the DTP members running as independents won 20.5% of the vote in the same cities. In contrast, the moderate Islamist Justice and Development Party (AK Party) almost doubled its share of the vote in the same 20 cities from 27.3% in 2002 to 52.6% on July 22 (Referans, August 6).

http://www.jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2372353 - http://www.jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2372353

Nationwide in 2002 they recieved 6% this election the figure dropped even below that.

thats all i want to know. While them losing ground to the AKP shows one can win over Kurds without firing a shot. The solution will only be found politically

The solution to what?

Terrorism cannot be solved pollitically. Has Basque terrorism stopped? has terrorism in Sri Lanka stopped? how about in Colombia?

The suggestion that terrorism is ended through pollitics, is the pollitics of sticking ones head in the sand and looking at the world through rose-tinted glasses.

The Turkish government has granted Kurds cultural rights, has invested alot in the areas where Kurds are a majority and helped develop the region, 600,000 daughters were sent to school in areas where they were disgracefully kept at home.

Has terror slowed ceased, no it hasn't even toned down.

The aims of Pkk Terrorism is seperatism and the hijacking of a cause by criminals, they traffic drugs, prostitute woman, use homeless kids to comit their crimes, use and brainwash child soldiers and do this under the guise that its "all for the benefit of Kurds". But its the Kurds who they force to give protection money, intimidate and bully.

There can be no compromise with the idea of "seperatism", therefore to suggest that the issue can be solved pollitically is totally unrealistic.

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�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2007 at 16:36

Originally posted by Bulldog

You are wrong about that , take at look at a pre-election rally in Xanthi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYOIFIl6tqM - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYOIFIl6tqM

In this video reporter Abdularif Dede call the Greeks "giaurs" and nothing happen to him , in the contrary the other day was invited in a political show to explain his thesis (there they also had a fight with a pomak ) .

Cannot even imagine what would have happened to any of the few remaining minority Greeks in Turkey, had they gathered somewhere and spoke in this manner against the Turkish people and the country!

Further more it was introduced in the Greek public school (only in WT) the lesson of Turkish (as a foreign language) with this way a student can learn also good Greek and Turkish.

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By http://profile.imageshack.us/user/antioxos - antioxos at 2007-08-20

Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2007 at 20:28

   At first the Turkish call to enter Iraqi Kurdistan seemed like an imperialistic move (it still might be with the oil fields so close). Now it seems like Ankara is taking a more cautious approach. If they set modest goals they can come out of this with some serious political points at home, although I agree with other forumers that the PKK problem is a Turkish problem. Ankara is just deflecting the blame off of their own incompetency regarding the Kurdish issue onto the Kurds of Iraq.

     I personally don't believe that the Turkish army can defeat PKK in a guerilla war. They haven't been able to curb a few thousand militants for over 30 years in their own country. I don't think a few weeks in another country is going to bring them better results. Although it would be in Ankara's interests to try to weaken or crush any manifestation of a Kurdish state, which would only spread the fervor within their own borders.

     The biggest problem with all this might be Iraq's sovereignty. Look at what happens to other fractured nations which allow their neighbors to step into their territory to tackle militants (Israeli interference on Lebanese soil, for instance). Does anyone know if there is a time limit, or any other limit, on Turkish interference in Iraqi Kurdistan?

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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

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Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2007 at 21:53

Did you know that the Turkish army has entered Northern Iraq many times before?

Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2007 at 22:03

Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

At first the Turkish call to enter Iraqi Kurdistan seemed like an imperialistic move

That's the last thing aimed.

Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

Ankara is just deflecting the blame off of their own incompetency regarding the Kurdish issue onto the Kurds of Iraq.

Not that I think that our governments has been and is being competent, but Kurds of Iraq,and their leaders Barzani and Talabani, of course, are not angels, and have been actively supporting terrorism, together with Westerner cowboys and gentlemen.

Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

The biggest problem with all this might be Iraq's sovereignty

It is being such a big issue now only because US and their cute little "Coalition" is in Iraq. Turkish army has entered Northern Iraq many times before because the region has been home to terrorist activism after Iraqi central government's effect was removed from the region after the Gulf War, which Turkey also entered as a party of Coalition...Funny Turkish foreign policy...

In international law, as far as it is "reasonable" and "proportional", such interventions are not wrongful.

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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

A Strange Orhan Veli

Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2007 at 22:50

Originally posted by cattus

The enemy is within. Some U.S. politicians are already using Iraq as a political tool, why not Turkey?

AMEN to that - I agree with you.

ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkey's powerful military chief said on Sunday if the U.S. Congress approved a resolution branding the 1915 killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks genocide ties between the NATO allies would never be the same again.

ADVERTISEMENT

Ankara is a crucial ally for Washington which relies on Turkey as a logistical base for the war in Iraq.

Some analysts believe the vote could weaken Washington's influence over Turkey and increase the likelihood of a Turkish incursion into northern Iraq to crush Kurdish separatist rebels who use the territory to stage attacks into Turkey.

"If the resolution that has passed in the U.S. committee is accepted by the assembly of the House of Representatives our military relations with the United States can never be the same again," chief of General Staff, General Yasar Buyukanit, told newspaper Milliyet.

The top Democrat in the House of Representatives said on Sunday she intended to press ahead with the resolution, despite White House concerns it would damage relations with Turkey.

"I said if it passed the committee that we would bring it to the floor," House of Representatives Speaker Nancy Pelosi said in an interview on ABC television's "This Week."

The Turkish government is to seek approval from parliament this week for a major operation against separatist Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) militants based in the Iraqi mountains.

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said on Saturday she had urged the Turkish government to refrain from any major military operation in northern Iraq. U.S. officials fear such a move could destabilize a relatively peaceful area of Iraq.

Turkish artillery fired seven to eight shells into a village in northern Iraq late on Saturday, witnesses said, the latest bout of shelling of the mountainous border area where separatist guerrillas are believed to hide out.

AMBASSADOR RECALLED

Ankara recalled its ambassador from the United States for consultations after the U.S. congressional committee vote, which was condemned in predominantly Muslim but secular Turkey.

The House of Representatives is due to vote on the symbolic measure, sponsored by a California lawmaker whose district has a large Armenian-American constituency, by mid-November.

Republicans on Sunday called on Pelosi to block the measure.

U.S. President George W. Bush voiced his concerns last week, saying: "This resolution is not the right response to these historic mass killings, and its passage would do great harm to our relations with a key ally in NATO and in the global war on terror."

Potential retaliatory moves by Turkey could include blocking U.S. access to the Incirlik air base, cancelling procurement contracts, denying airspace to U.S. aircraft and halting joint military exercises, diplomats say.

"I'm the chief of General Staff. I deal with security issues, I'm not a politician ... in this respect the United States has shot itself in the foot," Buyukanit said.

Turkey rejects the Armenian position, backed by many Western historians and some foreign parliaments, that up to 1.5 million Armenians suffered genocide at the hands of Ottoman Turks.

Turkey says many Muslim Turks died alongside Christian Armenians in inter-ethnic conflict in World War One.

Patriarch Mesrob II, the Istanbul-based spiritual leader of Turkey's Armenians, was quoted by state-run Anatolian news agency as saying his community opposed the U.S. bill. He has long called for dialogue to deal with past injustices.

Two senior U.S. officials visited Ankara on Saturday for talks with Turkish officials to try to ease tensions.

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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε

Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2007 at 23:43

I think the Democrats knew the consequences of passing this bill recognizing the Genocide. I think it will preassure the Bush adminstration to pull out giving them the upper hand to play their cards right and mold the situation politically anyway they'd like after everything has been said and done. They won't have to say they turned their backs and ran out, but can also they faught for ending the war before the Republicans. Obviously it's a ssumption, but it seems like the democrats want to hurt relations and this seems like a good reason to do so, in order to make themselves the top party.

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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey

Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2007 at 01:47

Originally posted by Bulldog

Leonadis

Turkey is moving, very slowly and only just recently, beyond the one nation-one language-people jargon.

What was that phrase AKP kept using during the election...

"one nation, one flag, one land and one state"

Let's take a look at Europe, for example France, in France everybody is officially French and this reflects on the cencus.

Turkey is one nation, one flag, one land and one state, if you don't like it that's your problem.

well dont know what your point is here, and you seem to agree (and provide examples) that ethno-nationalism can be racist. maybe your just saying 'well everyone else has a exclusive form of ethnic nationalism so its ok with me' but that has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I am equally critical of france and my veiws on the turks in greece can be read in that thread if you want to search it in this sub forum. so yes, attack is a great defence but my point that kurdish ethno-nationalism is no different (that is no worse) than turkish ethno-nationalism has not been properly countered. actaully your attitude makes a wonderful example of a no compromise 'you have to be one of us or your agianst us'. Turkish ethnic nationalism can be understood in the context and arguably as a reaction to other ethnic nationalism that attacked the ottomon system. Kurdish ethnic nationalism can also be understood in the context of Turkish ethnic nationalism. Nothing here is unique or seperate from the other.

BTW, Your hypocritical stance that it is racist if some other group to be defined in a ethnically exclusive way, but showing the same type of exclusiviness yourself, is here for everyone to see.

Originally posted by Bulldog

Has terror slowed ceased, no it hasn't even toned down.

The south east is poorly developed and improvished, which makes for a fertile breeding ground for seperatism, they have nothing to lose in this current enviroment. If you think im exagerating then blame the turkish media that i read, many in that country actually say that there needs to be more economic measures. Erdogan himself has admitted more needs to be done in this feild. Gul visited that region after becoming presidant. Why? because they know they have to work allot harder than before to intergrate that region to the rest of the country.

Originally posted by Bulldog

There can be no compromise with the idea of "seperatism", therefore to suggest that the issue can be solved pollitically is totally unrealistic.

No one is saying make these guys independant. Nor is catering to PKK demands, what a political solution is all about. However, addressing for kurdish rights is highly productive, the more that are given the less food is handed over to PKK propaganda. This and vital economic measures will push these guys into the extreme fringes and drain the swamp in which they flourish. If you think military measures will work then you obvoiusly are completly ingorant of the conflict, or using 'rose tinted' glasses. Turkey have invaded Nth Iraq before, they have put the whole south east under emergency rule. The militray has failed but they dont like to admit it. That is no suprise as it is very hard if not impossible for a military to completly win geurrilla conflicts just by force. As long as there are enough kurdish citizens that feel excluded in the political and economic life of Turkey, there will always be enough recruits ready to fight it.

Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2007 at 15:25

Folks the rights of Kurds in Turkey is a seperate issue than PKk terror. Please try not to equate the two. The PKK is a marxist group bent on the partition of Turkey period. No state would allow that and especially Turkey. Many Kurds are caught between brotherly ethnic compassion and maintaining lives without harrssment from the PKK.

Turkey is not considering further degradation in her own southeast. She would like to foster the economy there even more than in the past. However, while terror is going on everything is put in jeopardy. First and foremost the terror needs to stop. If it did then the PKK would lose all credibility. It does not want Turkish Kurds to further assimilate into Turkey. Alienation is and has been its policy. Turkey has already shown that she cannot alienate the Kurds as in the past. Since integration has been the policy, Turkey will retaliate and focus onto the terror problem since it is the most pressing issue of late.

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2007 at 16:45

The Turks have the right to take action to defend their soverignity.

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Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2007 at 19:30

Originally posted by Seko

Folks the rights of Kurds in Turkey is a seperate issue than PKk terror. Please try not to equate the two. The PKK is a marxist group bent on the partition of Turkey period. No state would allow that and especially Turkey. Many Kurds are caught between brotherly ethnic compassion and maintaining lives without harrssment from the PKK.

True, but we shouldn't assume that any Kurd who doesn't like Turkey is a PKK supporter. Its easy to lump a few terrorist attacks on a minority and say "well the Kurds love us and only terrorists don't like us". I'm sure there are Turkish Kurds who dislike PKK and Ankara. Many of them still remember the days when they weren't allowed to speak their own language in Turkey.

Originally posted by Seko

Turkey is not considering further degradation in her own southeast. She would like to foster the economy there even more than in the past. However, while terror is going on everything is put in jeopardy. First and foremost the terror needs to stop. If it did then the PKK would lose all credibility. It does not want Turkish Kurds to further assimilate into Turkey. Alienation is and has been its policy. Turkey has already shown that she cannot alienate the Kurds as in the past. Since integration has been the policy, Turkey will retaliate and focus onto the terror problem since it is the most pressing issue of late.

Now I know that things aren't like they were 20 years ago. But what reforms has Turkey passed in regards to Kurdish cultural and political rights? And towards their recognition as a distinct minority group?

Originally posted by eaglecap

Patriarch Mesrob II, the Istanbul-based spiritual leader of Turkey's Armenians, was quoted by state-run Anatolian news agency as saying his community opposed the U.S. bill. He has long called for dialogue to deal with past injustices.

Its important for non-Armenians to know that Patriarch Mesrob II is a virtual political prisoner of Ankara. If he so much as hints that a genocide took place (not that he is denying it now) they will prosecute him and convict him of "insulting Turkishness". If the religious leader of the minority group is somehow seen as "one who insults Turkey", then that will open the doors for all the extremists in the country to persecute Armenians. They already have a problem with killing priests there, imagine if a priest recognized the genocide or showed support for a bill which did. I'm afraid Mesrob II is forced to follow the state-line.

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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։

Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2007 at 21:41

Leonadis

What is "racist" about it.

If a Kurd is allowed and accepted as a "Turkish citizen" and given the exact same rights as any other citizen what exactly is the big problem.

In America everybody is American, when you become an American citizen you have the same rights as any other citizen, sing the national anthem and swear a pledge of allegience everyday.

It would be "racist" if Turkey denied citizens of Kurdish origin, citizinship or had different policies for citizens of Kurdish origin in comparison to everybody else.

Leonadis

The south east is poorly developed and improvished, which makes for a fertile breeding ground for seperatism

Depends where in the South East your referring to, Gaziantep is a financial centre of the region, Kahramanmaras and Malatya are up and comming regions. There are just as poor regions as some parts of the South East in other regions.

Leonadis

If you think military measures will work then you obvoiusly are completly ingorant of the conflict, or using 'rose tinted' glasses.

Turkey have invaded Nth Iraq before, they have put the whole south east under emergency rule. The militray has failed but they dont like to admit it.

The millitarys role is to fight terrorists, defeating terrorism does not just have millitary implications. You can kill every terrorist, however as long as the financers, arms suppliers, propoganda and pollitical wings exist the roots of terror cannot be defeated.

For an effective fight against terrorism there needs to be cohesion between pollitics and the army, the government must be fully dedicated clamping down on all non-combatent sides of terror while the army deals with getting rid of those with arms.

There was little pollitical will and courage to tackle terrorism head on, they were happy to let the millitary deal with it alone.

Erdogan seems to have now realised they all need to act together to destroy this organisation from its roots.

Turkey can go into Iraq as she likes as long as her security is at threat from attacks within that country.

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�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2007 at 21:55

Armeniansurvival

But what reforms has Turkey passed in regards to Kurdish cultural and political rights?

Kurds are allowed to open language schools. Although I don't feel this is enough, learning Kurmanji the major Kurdish dialect spoken among Kurds in Turkey and Zaza language for Zaza should be an optional choice in public schools as a "language" to learn.

There are Kurdish tv channels, broadcasts and radio.

Kurdish music industry.

Kurdish polliticians, a party which would be banned in any Western country, if any party couldn't renounce Al-Qaede as terrorists in the West they'd be immediately banned, branded enemies of the state and arrested.

There is still a way to go.

And towards their recognition as a distinct minority group

Why? in the Turkish system all citizens are Turkish.

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�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-Oct-2007 at 02:33

Here is a http://news%20www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=85902 - news story on the Turkish perspective of the issue, through the person of General Buyukanit. Turkey understands both the importance of the alliance to Turkey, and to the United States clearly, however, the recent turn of events, and actions have strained that alliance in their view.

�The United States is clearly an important ally. But an allied country does not behave in this way,� Gen. B�y�kanıt

However, the White house is atimate about pursuing a healing course in the alliance as their operations in Iraq are intertwined with access to Turkish ports, and resources to replenish the troops there.

�We will do everything we can so that this resolution will not come to the House floor,� Dan Fried & Eric Edelman

This issue will most likely be solved diplomatically, however, the Turkish response is firm, and concrete, they understand that they have a chance here to either gain more ground against the PKK by attaining either American security measures in Iraq, or invading by setting short term goals against PKK spots.

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Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 16-Oct-2007 at 19:20

Originally posted by es_bih

�The United States is clearly an important ally. But an allied country does not behave in this way,� Gen. B�y�kanıt

Who needs enemies when you have allies like United States.

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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

A Strange Orhan Veli

Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-Oct-2007 at 21:07

Originally posted by Kapikulu

Originally posted by es_bih

�The United States is clearly an important ally. But an allied country does not behave in this way,� Gen. B�y�kanıt

Who needs enemies when you have allies like United States.

I don't see a mention of the US being in any sort of way a possible enemy, but he definetly seems distressed with recent turn of events, especially the laxity with which the US have glanced over the PPK activity in Northern Iraq.

Diplomacy is key here, and will be used. The US doesn't want to lose a valuable ally such as Turkey, and Turkey gains much from continuing good relations with the US.

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Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2007 at 04:45

Originally posted by Sparten

The Turks have the right to take action to defend their soverignity.

I agree with this and it looks like some of the Democrats are backing down. My angle it is not in the interest of the US right now to do this. Hopefully, when our troops are out of iraq, if ever, then we can address this issue.
I do agree that the Turks have a right to deal with the terrorist Kurds on the border but I think things could get worse if this article below is true. Unifying with Iran would really escalate this war and really put Turkey at odds with the USA. I do not want to see this happen.

Turkey Forms Alliance With Iran Against Kurds
Using its outrage over the House resolution on the Armenian genocide as a pretext to flout its alliance with the United States.

By Kenneth R. Timmerman at NewsMax (thanks to Dav):

U.S. ally Turkey and U.S. arch-enemy Iran have formed a military alliance to drive opposition Kurds from bases in northern Iraq they have used since 2004 to launch guerrilla operations inside Iran, rebel leaders told Newsmax at a secret base in the Qandil mountains.

Both Iran and Turkey have vowed to send troops into northern Iraq, but until now evidence of active military cooperation between them has remained a closely-held secret.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has stepped up political and diplomatic threats in recent days, telling the United States he would cut off U.S. access to the strategic Incirlik airbase in eastern Turkey if the U.S. tried to prevent Turkey from sending troops against the Kurdish bases in northern Iraq.

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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε

Posted By: aslanlar
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2007 at 16:25

Does Iran have a problem with the kurds?

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"The league is alright when sparrows dispute but it can do little when eagles argue" -Mussolini

Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2007 at 16:28

Iran has been bombing Iraq for quite a while now.

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They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
Abdul Rahman Qassemlou

Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2007 at 18:46

Originally posted by Cent

Iran has been bombing Iraq for quite a while now.

PKK/Pejak bases near kandil mountans so far I know it.

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Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı
http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg -

Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2007 at 22:31

I hope the Dems back down but still Turkey will have to deal with the issue someday. I worry about the lawyers who want to seek reparations from Turkey and it turns out this is all about money.
The Armenians were not the only ones to lose family and property to the Ottoman Turks so when will this end. The Turks should recognize and acknowledge it just like we have done for the Native Americans. Turkey is far from the only country guilty of this sin, sad fact of our human history. For now, it is bad timing for the USA to adopt a resolution like this. I do not want to see us lose Turkey as a partner to the America.

I do wonder if this went through, which I doubt it will, and it damaged relations with us and Turkey would it bring us closer to Greece?

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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε

Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 00:53

What I think I understand of the issue is that Iraqi Kurdistan is the safest place in Iraq and has a strong FDI. The government does not condone the PKK, however they do not stop them crossing their borders. So it is a problem. Maybe Turkey should go all Lebanon on their asses haha (I am kidding)

Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 09:18

Originally posted by DayI

Originally posted by Cent

Iran has been bombing Iraq for quite a while now.

PKK/Pejak bases near kandil mountans so far I know it.

And Kandil streches into Iraq.

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They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
Abdul Rahman Qassemlou

Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 09:25

Originally posted by Ponce de Leon

What I think I understand of the issue is that Iraqi Kurdistan is the safest place in Iraq and has a strong FDI. The government does not condone the PKK, however they do not stop them crossing their borders. So it is a problem. Maybe Turkey should go all Lebanon on their asses haha (I am kidding)

I think the most sound argument is that there are many thousands more PKK fighters inside Turkey than in Iraq, but all their MPs can talk about are the minority of PKK fighters inside Iraqi Kurdistan. It is a deliberate deflection at the inadequacy of their own domestic policies in relation to their own Kurdish population, while at the same time providing them with a pretext to make an imperial grab on the oil fields of Iraqi Kurdistan. One has to be completely naive to believe that in this age, with the importance of energy resources, that Turkey is NOT trying to make a grab at the rich oil fields of this region (you have to at least take it into consideration, given the times we live in). And this oil-rich region is populated by the same people that Ankara has been oppressing for the last 80 years or so.

Originally posted by eaglecap

Unifying with Iran would really escalate this war and really put Turkey at odds with the USA. I do not want to see this happen.

Well Iran and Turkey have been cooperating on this issue for quite a while, and even Syria endorses Turkey's entry into northern Iraq. Any country with a Kurdish population would love to see the only autonomous Kurdish district crushed.

Originally posted by Sparten

The Turks have the right to take action to defend their soverignity.

They have had almost complete sovereignty for the better part of the last 7 centuries. The problem with Ankara is that they seek to bolster and expand this sovereignty by stripping the Kurds of theirs.

-------------
Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։

Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 13:19

Aslanlar

Does Iran have a problem with the kurds?

A situation is trying to be created where there what has happened in Turkey with the Pkk will be replicated in Iran, Pkk-Pejak is now being trained, armed, financed and directed to step-up terror in Iran.

However, Iran can learn from experience in the region and is not taking the early stage of these terrorists lightly, they are blowing up their bases in Northern Iraq.

ArmenianSurvival

This propaganda story just doesn't run anymore.

Turkey supported the early years of the Kurdistan state in Norther Iraq.

For the past few years the Turkish government has been very tolerant, they have refrained from causing problems between the Kurdish authorities in Northern Iraq. They have invited the Kurdish leaders for summits, talks and to co-operate.

Even with terrorism at its highest point since the early 90's they still tried to solve the issue with diplomacy. Countless times they called for the rulers in North Iraq to clamp down on terrorism. They even stood against the stance of the army and still tried to improve relations.

Now nobody can say Turkey didn't try.

Barzani is creating one huge mess for himself. He has alienated Iran, Syria, Turkey even others in Iraq, is allowing his state to be used as a sponser of terrorism and is causing uneeded tension.

The U.S won't back him forever, what will he do when the U.S looses interest and focuses energy on something else? a land-locked country, sponsering terrorists which are attacking countries on all sides of their borders.

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�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 13:37

Eaglecap

Strategically Turkey is of high importance to the US, probobly at its highest point since the end of the Cold War.

- U.S and Iran are currently pretty much enemy states.

- U.S and Syria are in a similar position.

- There is a chaotic war in Iraq.

- Israel, which America treats as its 51st state, who is an ally and has a special relationship no other state does with her percieves to be at threat by Iran, Syria and all her Arab neighbours.

- U.S and Russia have rocky relations.

- U.S doesn't want Russian domination of the Caucauses and Central Asia

These points have bolsted Turkey's strategic importance for America.

- An ally of U.S since before WW2, through the Cold War and a Nato member.

- One of America's largest and most important millitary bases "Incirlik" is located in Turkey. This provides logistics and 70% of traffic/carge into Iraq, the middle east and into the Near-East.

- Turkey is one of the few powerfull states in the region which has good relations with, Iran, Syria, Israel and other Arab states.

- Turkey is firmly against any terrorist organisations, is not a supporter of extremism against the West and has co-operated and joined America's war on terrorism. Sending troop units to Afganistan twice.

- 25% of energy used in Northern Iraq is from Turkey.

- 16 American Millitary ships dock in Turkish ports.

- Has strong millitary relations.

etc etc etc

U.S.A and Turkey have alot of strong relations.

However, this is being severly damaged. Is it really in America's interests to jeopradise all of this for a few Democrat votes and allowing Pkk recognised as a terrorist organisation in America and across the world to operate freely? America is fighting a war against TERROR but isn't giving an ally support to fight TERRORISM on her doorstep!

While America carries on acting like this, its only natural that Turkey and now Iran and Syria move closer together as Pkk-Pejak terrorism is now operating in those states aswell.

America is talking about this "platform" to talk about ending terror.

Iran is not "talking", they told Turkey they would co-operate and work together against terrorism and they are keeping their word, their in Iraq fighting against Pkk-Pejak and providing intellegence to Turkey about suspected terrorists in the region aswell.

If Turkey joined Iran, Russia also looks warmly to such a prospect, it will be totally against American interests, however, through decisions which are giving blows to their foreign policy they would have created it.

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�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 13:58

Dear Bulldog

The US knows no special relations to nobody and has no friends. They take you meat and through you bare bones and if you served them your entire life in a slavish manner, they will sell you when it is profitable to the politicians in Washington. Even Britain, the ally no. 1 that its own PM became the official spokesman of the US administration suffered humiliation during the most loyal british PM ever, dear old Mrs Thatcher, the "Iron lady" asthey called her. Reagan bluntly refused not only to give up well known IRA terrorists convicted in acts of terror against civilians, but he refused to stop funding those terrorists from inside the US and Thatcher did what a slave do, bow to her master and US worshippers inside Britain who are now calling for WWIII against Iran are masochistically happy withthis relationship. The other episode is Trinadad. I am not even going to mention what happened to the Shah of Afghanistan's Mujahedeen.

This is why Turkey should view every legistlation coming from congress with suspession because what will come next, return the lands taken after Sevres back?

Al-Jassas

Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 14:50

Iran, Turkey and Syria are afraid of KRG. That's fact.

I couldn't agree more with Armeniansurvival and his analyze.

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They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
Abdul Rahman Qassemlou

Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 14:52

Bulldog, you speak of terrorism, but you forget to mention what the Turkish regime has done to Kurds in Turkey for the last 80 years.

If that's not terrorism, then I don't know what is.

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They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
Abdul Rahman Qassemlou

Posted By: aslanlar
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 15:05

Cent

"If that is not terrorism, then i don't know what is."

QUITE CLEARLY, you do not know what terrorism is. Explain how it's possible to label that as terrorism?

At armenian survival:
Did Turkey have intentions on aquiring the oil-fields of Northern Iraq the last two times they invaded Iraq? I don't remember Turkey aquiring Iraqi land?

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"The league is alright when sparrows dispute but it can do little when eagles argue" -Mussolini

Posted By: aslanlar
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 15:11

Originally posted by eaglecap

The issue will be dealt with eventually, but without Turkey accepting the 'genocide'.

Do you HONESTLY (key word) think it's not about Money and Land in the form of reparations?

Yeh, we should want reparations from the armenians!

"Turkey should recognize and achnowledge it" ...Or not.

Now leading up to my point:
If the bill was passed within this year, what 'defensive attack' could Turkey produce against the US?

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"The league is alright when sparrows dispute but it can do little when eagles argue" -Mussolini

Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 16:46

Cent

Bulldog, you speak of terrorism

Yes an internationally recognised Terrorist Oganisation called PKK.

Not your silly myths and legends...all you do is whine and squirm when it comes to accepting the reality, Pkk are nothing but an extremist terrorist organisation.

This happened the other day.

Southeastern village of Besagac buries 12 killed in PKK terrorist attack

A PKK terrorist attack which occured two evenings ago killed 12 people traveling on a minibus near the village of Besagac near Sirnak. Funerals for the 12 took place yesterday first in the city of Beytussebap, where crowds of more than 2,000 gathered and shouted slogans condemning the PKK. The bodies were then laid to rest in the village of Besagac.

The attack on the minibus took place on Saturday evening, when village residents were returning from working all day digging in water conduits, with the hope that sometime in the near future, Besagac village would have its own running water. When the evening Ramazan meal, iftar, began to approach, the villagers boarded the minibus back to their village. On the road back, the minibus was strafed by bullets from all side, as an estimated 10 PKK terrorists had set up a trap from the woods on both sides of the road.

Commenting on the attack on his return from the US, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan noted that PKK terrorists had switched their targeting, from security force members to citizens. He also noted that the "determination" of the administration against the terrorists was reflected in what he called the "most recent flailings" of the PKK.

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/7396681.asp?gid=74&sz=69985 - http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/7396681.asp?gid=74&sz=69985

Something for you to cheer about.

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�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 16:50

Al Jassas

I have to totally agree, U.S has no true allies other than Israel, all other states are potential allies or enemies, it depends on their use, my point was stressing not the idea that Turkey is a rock-solid ally of the U.S but is in the interests of the country.

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�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 18:13

Originally posted by aslanlar

Cent

"If that is not terrorism, then i don't know what is."

From wikipedia:

"Terrorism in the modern sense^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism#_note-0 - [1]} is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence - violence or other harmful acts committed (or threatened) against civilians for political or other ideological goals."

Turkey is actually fullfilling these criterias.

Turkey has used violence, torture and other means to enslave the Kurdish population for decades.

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They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
Abdul Rahman Qassemlou

Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 18:15

Originally posted by Bulldog

Cent

Bulldog, you speak of terrorism

Yes an internationally recognised Terrorist Oganisation called PKK.

Not your silly myths and legends...all you do is whine and squirm when it comes to accepting the reality, Pkk are nothing but an extremist terrorist organisation.

This happened the other day.

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/7396681.asp?gid=74&sz=69985 - http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/7396681.asp?gid=74&sz=69985

Something for you to cheer about.

You're mention what PKK is doing, but you're failing to see that TURKEY created PKK.

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They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
Abdul Rahman Qassemlou

Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 19:05

Try again? Read up on PKK history. Be factual without bias.

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Posted By: aslanlar
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 19:11

Turkey created this by not conceeding territory to the Kurds?

What harmfull act does Turkey commit against the Kurdish population for Political goals? I'm dying to see how you constitute Ankara as not just a terrorist organization, but an entire country based on terrorism.

Just a question, are you Kurdish?

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"The league is alright when sparrows dispute but it can do little when eagles argue" -Mussolini

Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 20:35

You have not figured that out yet?

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Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 21:05

Originally posted by Seko

Try again? Read up on PKK history. Be factual without bias.

Read up on Turkey's history. Be factual without bias.

Let's see how many terror acts they've committed against the Kurdish people.

Seko, are you kidding me? Are you saying that Turkey didn't to anything WRONG all these years against the Kurds?

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They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
Abdul Rahman Qassemlou

Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 21:08

Originally posted by aslanlar

Turkey created this by not conceeding territory to the Kurds?

Just a question, are you Kurdish?

Yes, I'm a Kurd.

What harmfull acts? How about persecution, murder, oppression, DENYING THAT WE DON'T EXIST? 20 years ago Kurdish was forbidden.

Even though Ankara has done some things, and that's just because of pressure from EU, MANY things aren't as good as they should be.

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They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
Abdul Rahman Qassemlou

Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 21:46

Originally posted by Seko

Try again? Read up on PKK history. Be factual without bias.

It would be an interesting read but some of the territories they claim are former Armenian lands. Anyone involved in terrorism period whether they be Christian, PKK, Muslim, Hindu, communist or whatever are plain evil.

What else can Turkey do although I hate to see this create a rift between our nations. I, myself, will always love the Turkish people and hopefully this will blow over.

What do the Greeks feel about a rift between Turkey and the USA? I am sure it would work to their favor.

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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε

Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 22:12

Originally posted by Cent

You're mention what PKK is doing, but you're failing to see that TURKEY created PKK.

Even though you would like to blame Turkey and divert my request, I still wonder if you know how the PKK was created and its intentions.

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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 22:47

The PKK's origins can be traced back to 1974, when �calan, in Ankara, led a small group of radicals out of Revolutionary Youth (DEV-GEN�). The Kurdistan Workers Party, "Partiya Karkeren Kurdistan" (PKK) was established in 1978.

Its aim was to create a Marxist state in South Eastern Turkey.

Sorry to dispell your wild conspiracies.

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�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 19-Oct-2007 at 10:43

Originally posted by Bulldog

Southeastern village of Besagac buries 12 killed in PKK terrorist attack

PKK deny they were behind this. The DTP wanted an investigation into who was behind this, suspecting the deep state pulled another trick. this is totally conceivable considering that act of terrorism in http://www.ihd.org.tr/repspec/semdinli/semdinlireport.htm -

on the conflicting claims

The "�zg�r G�ndem" newspaper, which has been banned from publishing, claimed on its website that the PKK has announced that the attack was organised by the Turkish Armed Forces and the Gendarmerie Intelligence Unit (JITEM). The article draws attention to the killing of 11 village guards in a minibus in another district of Sirnak (G�cl�konak) in 1996 and claims that that attack was also organised by JITEM.

http://www.bianet.org/english/kategori/english/102116/parliament-will-investigate-attack-in-sirnak -

Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 19-Oct-2007 at 11:04

Originally posted by Cent

You're mention what PKK is doing, but you're failing to see that TURKEY created PKK.

No it didn't create this group. though i suspect its existence is for benefit for some extreme elements in the military. Notice how the AKP now are not as much in control of the Kurdish agenda? The south east is now a security problem not an economic/political one.

This article pretty much talks along those lines

Multiple Discourses on Kurdish Question Silenced

Sociologist Yegen has evaluated the current political climate as a silencing of alternative discourses on the Kurdish question. The arena has been left to the army and the PKK.

Bıa news centre

17-10-2007

According to sociologist Assistant Professor Dr. Mesut Yegen of the Middle East Technical University in Ankara, the main aim of operations in Northern Iraq is to change the political climate in Turkey related to the Kurdish question.

"After the [general] elections [in July], there were two new actors concerning the Kurdish question, the Justice and Development Party (AKP) and the Democratic Society Party (DTP). Now the discourses of these two actors have been disabled. The AKP's bid to exclude military solutions and turn to economic development, and the DTP's suggestions for a new constitution and a debate on the Kurdish question in parliament are now off the agenda."

Fighting sides dominant

"Now there is only room for two actors in the Kurdish question: the military bureaucracy and the PKK (Kurdish Workers' Party). With this simplification, "unnecessary confusion" has been avoided, the variety of discourses has been quashed. Now the discourses of the fighting sides are dominant again."

Thus, according to Yegen, there has been a return to considering the Kurdish question a question of "public security".
Yegen says that it was clear before the elections that the AKP would not be able to withstand army pressure concerning the Kurdish question.

http://www.bianet.org/english/kategori/english/102370/multiple-discourses-on-kurdish-question-silenced - www.bianet.org

The moves for violence has only handed this issue over to the wrong people on both sides, the same people that destroyed the south east for their own particular political agenda. For the PKK they profit in the chaos and run the kurdish agenda their way, while the security forces will never have to give up any budget, influnce, relevance or powers if the place is in real peace. Maybe I am too cynical.

Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 19-Oct-2007 at 12:19

What I mean is that, Turkey's politics in the past has been the fundamental reason behind PKK's existence.

PKK wouldn't be as strong as they are today if it wasn't for Ankara's harsh politics against the Kurdish minority.

That's what I mean when I say that Turkey has created the PKK.

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They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
Abdul Rahman Qassemlou

Posted By: Kerimoglu
Date Posted: 19-Oct-2007 at 18:38

When I just went to Istanbul for Conference 2 month ago, I did it by bus, from Nakhchivan to Istanbul. On the way, the bus stopped every 4 hours for 5 times. In 3 of them the restaurants that it stopped was all Kurdish, all waiters were Kurdish, all cookers were Kurdish, it was written in Kurdish on them, and now u are talking about unfear treatment of Turks in Turkey? Man they have schools in their language, they have the right to choose to serve in military. Look Azeri Turks in Iran. They have not even been able to build a single Azerbaijani school over there.

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History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow!

Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2007 at 00:36

Leonadis, that village is "pro-government", village guards operate there, Pkk terrorists justify attacking civillians in such villages.

Pkk kill 9 in suicide bomb attack Ankara

http://uk.reuters.com/news/video/videoStory?videoId=53989 - http://uk.reuters.com/news/video/videoStory?videoId=53989

Istanbul bomb wounds 14

http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=154369&version=1&template_id=39&parent_id=21 - http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=154369&version=1&template_id=39&parent_id=21

A bomb was exploded in a market square in Diyarbakir.

etc etc

This is getting ridiculous, if the same thing was happening in the U.S or UK, it would not be tolerated.

Turkey has been very passive, the government has tried to be tolerant but its getting to a stage where enough is enough.

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�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2007 at 04:20

they are better examples of terrorism, granted it is not from that splinter group Kurdish Freedom Falcons (TAK). One must be careful to claim everything is PKK just because a Kurdish separatist was behind it. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5292122.stm -

Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2007 at 02:13

Believing silly stories of terrorists is naive.

Al-Qaede is an "organisation", an organisation has networks, has sub-branches and different regional operatives, however, the mainframe is the Al-Q organisation.

Pkk is the "organisation", it has various networks and sub-branches, some more extreme, some trying to involve to pollitics. They are all connected.

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�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2007 at 03:14

Originally posted by Bulldog

Believing silly stories of terrorists is naive.

its just as naive to believe the proscribed story coming out of Turkish establishment, or anything on face value for that matter.

Originally posted by Bulldog

Al-Qaede is an "organisation", an organisation has networks, has sub-branches and different regional operatives, however, the mainframe is the Al-Q organisation.

Pkk is the "organisation", it has various networks and sub-branches, some more extreme, some trying to involve to pollitics. They are all connected.

AFAIK al qaeda's structure is not even close to being compared to that of the PKK. Confused

. You just replying for the sake of it and clearly without much knowledge of the subject at hand.

The PKK has a hierarchal type structure that is very harsh on the cadres and they are in strict control from the top down. For an organizations that has allegedly killed 1500 of it own members, I hardly think there is differences in opinion at the grass roots of that organization, they simply leave. Al Qaeda is the complete opposite, a franchise type ideologically linked organization with very little structure or control from the center.

However, there has been recent internal dissent and defections in the PKK over to the Iraqi Peshmergers. For instance it was reported that four very senior leaders died to a suicide bomber in the Qandil, in what looks like a inside job. That means we can question how cohesive leadership is within the PKK, there seems to be competing political factions of various styles. TAK is simply not connected to any of this. Please show me which authority says the PKK is simply one organization with different types of sub branches.

http://jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2373677 -

There are other indications of a growing rivalry between the PKK and the TAK. From mid-August, Murat Karayilan, a senior PKK commander on Mount Qandil in northern Iraq, declared that a new PKK cease-fire would come into effect on September 31 (KurdMedia.com, August 24; Terrorism Monitor, September 21). The TAK, however, dealt the cease-fire a probably fatal blow when they carried out a triple resort bombing on August 28. Kongra-Gel, a branch of the PKK, swiftly condemned the August 28 TAK attacks, perhaps fearing that the violence would make Ankara less willing to compromise on Kurdish issues (Firat News Agency, August 30). Within days of the attack, the Turkish prime minister and the army's chief of staff both said that they would not recognize the PKK cease-fire and would continue to treat the group as a "terrorist organization." The TAK attack, therefore, dealt a blow to both Turkey and the PKK.

from this report; http://jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2370165 -

Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2007 at 14:21

Update

Dozens die in Turkey border clash

Fighting between Turkish soldiers and Kurdish rebels near the border with Iraq has left 12 soldiers and 23 rebels dead, said Turkish military officials.
The army sent reinforcements, including helicopters, to the area after soldiers were ambushed early on Sunday morning.
The clashes come days after Turkey's parliament authorised the army to cross the border into Iraq to pursue rebels.
The vote followed attacks blamed on the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) which killed nearly 30 troops and civilians.
Not far from the scene of the fighting, in south-eastern Hakkari province, an explosion from a landmine hit a minibus injuring 10 people, the state news agency Anatolia said.
Call for unity
A statement from the Turkish military said a large group of PKK rebels had crossed the border from Iraq and launched their attack shortly after midnight.
The rebels attacked with heavy weapons, also wounding a number of soldiers, Turkish media reported.
A pro-rebel website said that some Turkish soldiers had been taken hostage.
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan announced on Turkish television that the country's security officials would hold an emergency meeting later on Sunday to consider their response.
He called for "unity and solidarity" and said he was "resolved to deal with these matters in a cool-headed manner".
He urged the media to show restraint in its reporting of the situation. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7055004.stm -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7055004.stm -
a bit more detail is in the http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-7012992,00.html -

The pro-Kurdish Firat news agency, based in Belgium, later said rebels also took several Turkish soldiers hostage. Firat cited guerrilla sources, but there was no immediate confirmation.

The soldiers died when rebels blew up a bridge as a 12-vehicle military convoy was crossing it, CNN-Turk television said. The Turkish military said it killed 23 guerrillas in a counteroffensive, and Iraq reported Turkish shelling toward Kurdish villages in the border area in northern Iraq. There were no casualties in the artillery bombardment.

Unfortunately this just increased the pressure to move in. More reports hopefully will shed more light on casualties, it should be noted that number has changed around.

Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2007 at 14:26

I think time already come to enter north iraq and stay at there.. Until some people learn to stop feeding and supporting terrorists at their own soil..(Or same people protect their own land against terrorists.)

Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2007 at 20:13

PKK is trying to lure Turkish army into Northern Iraq. This is unusual, normally they would talk about peace, freedom, ceasefire etc. and accuse Turkish authorities of adopting warmongering policies. This may be due to the winter ahead. If Turkish army fails in Iraq, the whole world will begin to question the legitimacy of national borders in that region. Both sides are taking great risks. PKK may be destroyed, yes, but may get even stronger than before as well. Turkish state has started a psychological warfare. One can observe this in TV shows, charity campaigns and even football matches. Soon it'll not matter if a Turk is centre-left or far-right, they will unite under one banner.

By the way, I believe some of you guys are using outdated informative sources. PKK is not Marxist. Contrary, they are clearly in league with Kurdish feudal warlords who directly serve American imperialism. Say, do you know what PKK thinks about the strike at Turkish communication corporation? I bet you don't. And do you know why not? Because they don't think anything about it. Marxism is based on economical problems, class warfare and social injustice. All national, ethnic, cultural, religious etc. issues are secondary whereas PKK is just a left leaning Kurdish nationalist party.

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Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2007 at 22:22

Originally posted by Bulldog

Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

This propaganda story just doesn't run anymore.

Turkey supported the early years of the Kurdistan state in Norther Iraq.

The early years? It has only existed for around 4 years.

Originally posted by Bulldog

Thats good, but do these summits have any tangible results, or is it just political theater for the EU?

Originally posted by Bulldog

Even with terrorism at its highest point since the early 90's they still tried to solve the issue with diplomacy. Countless times they called for the rulers in North Iraq to clamp down on terrorism. They even stood against the stance of the army and still tried to improve relations.

This is just funny. Turkey, with all its resources, cannot curb terrorism in its own country for over 20 years, but they expect a 4-year-old autonomous region within Iraq (of all places) to be able to curb terrorism.

Originally posted by Bulldog

Barzani is creating one huge mess for himself. He has alienated Iran, Syria, Turkey even others in Iraq, is allowing his state to be used as a sponser of terrorism and is causing uneeded tension.

I don't think the Kurds needed to wait for Barzani in order to feel alienated by Syria and Turkey.

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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։

Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 03:40

Originally posted by Feanor

PKK is trying to lure Turkish army into Northern Iraq. This is unusual, normally they would talk about peace, freedom, ceasefire etc. and accuse Turkish authorities of adopting warmongering policies. This may be due to the winter ahead. If Turkish army fails in Iraq, the whole world will begin to question the legitimacy of national borders in that region. Both sides are taking great risks. PKK may be destroyed, yes, but may get even stronger than before as well. Turkish state has started a psychological warfare. One can observe this in TV shows, charity campaigns and even football matches. Soon it'll not matter if a Turk is centre-left or far-right, they will unite under one banner. .

it is true that they are hardly a marxist organisition. I am also somewhat suprised of their harder line of late. They were, despite what has been written here, moderating their demands and actions. I feel there has been a change of guard at the top. Apparently the leadership in the kandil are the more moderate group within this organisation, so questions can be asked if it is really them or another clique ordering the attacks.

This also puts another question on the wisdom of attacking kandil.

Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 09:32

It is very difficult to win guerrillas in the mountains ( in the WW II German army never manage to beat Greek guerrillas because were high in the mountains ) . In the mountains a regular army losing all his superiority that coming from technology or force of fire.

My opinion only unforeseen special operation against the PKK camp (need the help of Turkey intelligent services to locate PKK camps ) has chance of success .A possibly mass invasion to northern Iraq will fail and will place in danger the integrity of Turkey.

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By http://profile.imageshack.us/user/antioxos - antioxos at 2007-08-20

Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 18:22

It is just reported in the news that a few turkish troops got killed and now the army retaliated by killing a few more insurgents. I have a bad feeling though that the turkish army will have a tough time getting those militants out of the mountains. And there are a lot of innocent people living among the insurgents so there is a high chance innocent lives will be lost, which will only elevate the status of the insurgents. Damn this scenario sounds familiar...

Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 19:10

Here is the place that the turkish troops got killed from PKK .

http://www.haberturk.com/galeri.asp?src=5&id=41320 - http://www.haberturk.com/galeri.asp?src=5&id=41320

http://www.haberturk.com/galeri.asp?src=1&id=41320 - http://www.haberturk.com/galeri.asp?src=1&id=41320

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By http://profile.imageshack.us/user/antioxos - antioxos at 2007-08-20

Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 21:39

To be "fair" doesn't Turkey have special units for guerilla mountain warfare?

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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage

Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 21:43

Of course it has. These guys were some conscripts who had no more than some weeks of training.

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Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 10:08

Analysis: A possible new Iraq war

Pressure grows in Turkey for military strike on Iraq-based rebels. AFP photo.

by Ben Lando
Washington (UPI) Oct 22, 2007
A Turkish invasion of Iraq over the Kurdish separatist group based in the northern Iraq mountains highlights -- and risks escalating -- the tension between Washington and allies Turkey, Iraq and Iraq's Kurds.

Turkey is mad at the United States for what it sees as the selective prosecution of the war on terrorism, among other reasons, and blames Iraq's national government and the Kurdistan Regional Government for not stopping the Kurdistan Workers' Party, known by its initials PKK.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said the PKK, recognized by Turkey and the United States as a terrorist organization, needs to be stopped. Turkey's Parliament has authorized military action, and Erdogan says he has the right to act if no one else will.

The PKK has launched attacks in Turkey for decades, part of a struggle for more autonomy for Kurdish people, if not independence altogether. The most recent was Sunday when the Turkish military was ambushed and 17 soldiers were killed, 16 injured and eight kidnapped.

Washington and Baghdad are urging Ankara to hold off on an incursion. The United States and Europe both condemned the recent attack.

But Turkey's government is feeling the pressure to act. Erdogan told The London Times there is "a serious wave of anti-Americanism" in Turkey, largely stoked by U.S. congressional legislation condemning the killing of Armenians during World War I.

The KRG says military action against the PKK has not worked in the past and wants a dialogue between Ankara and Irbil, at least, if not Baghdad and Washington at the table.

"We believe there is room for political, peaceful solution," Falah Mustafa Bakir, the KRG foreign minister, said Friday in Washington during a U.S. diplomatic visit, adding the KRG would take military action against the PKK if it thought it would work.

He said the KRG has influence "only to an extent" over the PKK. The KRG says it has seen no proof that anyone based in Iraq is directly linked to planning or carrying out attacks in Turkey.

Massoud Barzani, president of the KRG, in a joint news conference with Kurdish leader and Iraqi President Jalal Talabani, fanned the flames by neither outright condemning nor supporting the PKK.

"However, if the conflict directly entangled us or the Iraqi Kurdistan Region, we will definitely defend ourselves," Barzani said Sunday.

Qubad Talabani, the Iraqi president's son and the KRG representative to the United States, in reasoning against the invasion, points to the failed military attempts to fight the PKK in the past, the extent of Turkish investment in the KRG economy, and the effect on Kurdish moderates living inside Turkey.

"If (Turkey) invades Iraqi Kurdistan," Talabani said, "these moderates will have no choice but to become less moderate."

"It could set a precedent," he added. "If Turkey goes in unilaterally, what's to stop any of Iraq's other neighbors from going in?"

Turkey, Iraq, Iran and Syria all have large Kurdish populations, and all are wary of calls for Kurdish statehood.

As a result, Turkey doesn't formally recognize the KRG. On issues like oil and fuel sales between the two countries, or a new oil pipeline from the KRG directly to Turkey, or finding common ground against the PKK, Ankara will only sit down with Baghdad.

Inside Iraq, the Kurds have tried to strike a balance between autonomy while being a part of the new Iraq.

The Kurds have been semiautonomous since the Gulf War in the 1990s per U.N. mandate and U.S. and British protection, which is why their political system, military and economy are more advanced than the rest of Iraq.

But disagreements with Baghdad over its role in the oil sector, among other issues, have soured the relationship.

"They have been insistent regarding the expansion of the KRG into mixed areas of the country (well beyond Kirkuk)," said Wayne White, Iraq expert at the Middle East Institute, referring to the oil-rich territory Kurds claim as theirs. "They have been largely defiant on issues related to the balance of power between Baghdad and the regions (such as oil and revenue sharing), measures aimed at reviving Kurdish identity have smacked of quasi-independence (flying the KRG flag instead of the Iraqi flag, for example), and they have taken practically no action to crack down on the PKK."

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Analysis_A_possible_new_Iraq_war_999.html - http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Analysis_A_possible_new_Iraq_war_999.html http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Analysis_A_possible_new_Iraq_war_999.html -

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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)

Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 10:48

Kurds demonstrate in Zakho against Turkish parliament's decision

Thousands of residents in northern Duhuk's Zakho district took to the streets on Saturday morning to protest a decision adopted by the Turkish parliament to authorize the Turkish government to hunt down the banned Kurdistan Workers Party's (PKK) separatists in northern Iraq.

"The Turkish parliament's decision violates Iraq's sovereignty and serves the interests of terrorists inside the country by creating chaos," the head of Kurdistan's region Students' Union in Zakho, Muhammad Bashir, told the independent news agency Voices of Iraq (VOI).

"We call on the Turkish people to pressurize its government into halting any military operation inside the region," Bashir indicated.

"Protestors submitted a memorandum to the mayor of Zakho, Hussein Jalti, in which they called for dialogue and rejected Turkish threats to invade the region," according to VOI correspondent who attended the demonstration.

A source from the union told VOI earlier that eight civil society organizations will stage demonstrations in Zakho on Saturday to protest the parliament's decision.
In the presence of Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Turkish parliament on Wednesday voted to allow military strikes against Kurdish separatists in northern Iraq, most recently blamed for attacks that killed 15 soldiers early this month.

Only 19 Turkish lawmakers out of the 555 parliament members voted against the bill, which permitted any Turkish incursion into northern Iraq to pursue fighters allegedly using mountain areas in northern Iraq as a base to attack Turkish targets.

The motion came at a time that both Iraq and the U.S. urged Turkey to show self-restraint and to seek a peaceful approach to the crisis.

Zakho district is located 50 km north of Duhuk, the third province within Iraq's Kurdistan region which lies 460 km north of the Iraqi capital Baghdad and has borders with Turkey.

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php/article/23049 - http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php/article/23049

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By http://profile.imageshack.us/user/antioxos - antioxos at 2007-08-20

Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 13:58

They can demonstrate as muc as they want.(This is what people are doing in Turkey too.)

I think, PKK went too far. An operation is inevitable. Time and bigness of it is the question..

Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 17:48

U know what made me chuckle a week ago they asked the people what they thought about the decision of the prime minister to "invite" the Pkk to the parlement

the MHP minister said. They belong in jail and not in the parlement. Isn't it enough that we allready have 20 in the parlement

It's racist but it is funny because he was refering to the inefficient policy of the prime minister.

Anyone seen this?

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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage

Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 19:23

The Turkish soldiers hostages from PKK

I hope they come back safe in their houses.

http://www.milliyet.com.tr/content/galeri/yeni/goster.asp?id=5&galeriid=1981#galeriStart - http://www.milliyet.com.tr/content/galeri/yeni/goster.asp?id=5&galeriid=1981#galeriStart

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By http://profile.imageshack.us/user/antioxos - antioxos at 2007-08-20

Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 24-Oct-2007 at 09:43

Turkey strikes at Kurdish militants in northern Iraq-1

10:14

24/ 10/ 2007

http://en.rian.ru/world/20071024/85260040-print.html">

(Adds details, background in paras 3-4, 6-8)

ANKARA, October 24 (RIA Novosti) - Units of the Turkish army have crossed the Iraqi border in a special operation against Kurdish militants, local newspapers said Wednesday.

The Yeni Safak newspaper reported that Turkish commandos supported by helicopters were chasing militants from the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), and F-16 Falcon fighter-bombers and artillery were delivering pinpoint strikes at militant bases about 50 kilometers (30 miles) deep into the Iraqi territory.

Zaman, Turkey's third largest newspaper, said the Turkish Armed Forces had stepped up their http://en.rian.ru/video/20071023/85137073.html - bombardment of the Iraqi border as part of an operation launched in retaliation for Sunday's terrorist attack that killed 12 soldiers and wounded 16 others.

The newspaper cited a government spokesman as saying that the U.S. had been informed about the start of the cross-border operation, although Turkey's military has not confirmed the media reports.

The http://en.rian.ru/world/20071017/84320555.html - Turkish parliament sanctioned last week military cross-border operations against the PKK, based in north Iraq, following an earlier government request. The PKK says it is currently holding several Turkish soldiers hostage.

Turkey's military said on Monday that http://en.rian.ru/world/20071022/84992040.html - eight military personnel were missing following clashes with Kurdish fighters on the Iraqi border, 34 Kurds and at least 12 Turkish servicemen were killed last Sunday in an ambush by Kurdish militants.

Turkey's National Security Council is meeting Wednesday to discuss further action against the PKK insurgents and the reaction of the U.S. and neighboring countries on the Turkish incursion into northern Iraq.

The PKK, listed by the U.S., NATO and the EU as a terrorist organization, has been fighting for autonomy status in southeast Turkey for nearly 25 years. The conflict has so far claimed about 40,000 lives.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20071024/85260040.html - http://en.rian.ru/world/20071024/85260040.html

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By http://profile.imageshack.us/user/antioxos - antioxos at 2007-08-20

Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2007 at 14:24

Interview from PKK leader , Bozan Tekin

Kurdish fighters defy the world from mountain fortress as bombing begins

By Patrick Cockburn in the Qandil mountains, Iraq

Published: 25 October 2007

Turkey used its helicopters and artillery to attack Kurdish guerrillas inside northern Iraq yesterday as the Turkish army massed just north of the border. The helicopter gunships penetrated three miles into Iraqi territory and warplanes targeted mountain paths used by rebels entering Turkey.

Guerrilla commanders of the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) were defiant in the face of an impending invasion. In an interview high in the Qandil mountains, Bozan Tekin, a PKK leader, said: "Even Alexander the Great couldn't bring this region under his rule." The PKK has its headquarters in the Qandil mountains, one of the world's great natural fortresses in the east of Iraqi Kurdistan, stretching south from the south-east tip of Turkey along the Iranian border. If Turkey, or anybody else, is to try to drive the PKK out of northern Iraq they would have to capture this bastion and it is unlikely they will succeed.

Despite threats of action by the Iraqi Prime Minister, Nouri al-Maliki, the PKK leaders give no sense of feeling that their enemies were closing in.

For a guerrilla movement awaiting assault, the PKK's leaders are surprisingly easy to find. We drove east from Arbil for two-and-a-half hours and hired a four-wheel drive car in the village of Sangassar. Iraqi police wearing camouflage uniform were at work building a new outpost out of cement blocks beside the road leading into the mountains but only took our names.

In fact the four-wheel drive was hardly necessary because there is a military road constructed by Saddam Hussein's army in the 1980s which zig-zags along the side of a steep valley until it reaches the first PKK checkpoint. The PKK soldiers with Kalashnikovs and two grenades pinned to the front of their uniform were relaxed and efficient. In case anybody should have any doubt about who was in control there was an enormous picture of the imprisoned PKK leader Abdullah Ocalan picked out in yellow, black, white and red painted stones on a hill half a mile away and visible over a wide area.

There were no sign that threats from Mr Maliki in Baghdad or from the Iraqi President, Jalal Talabani, were having an effect. The PKK soldiers at a small guest house had not been expecting us but promptly got in touch with their local headquarters.

For all its nonchalance the PKK is facing a formidable array of enemies. The Iraqi government in Baghdad has no direct influence over the Kurdistan Regional Government, led by President Massoud Barzani whose administration is made up of his own Kurdistan Democratic Party and President Talabani's Patriotic Union of Kurdistan. This is the only force capable of trying to eject the 3,000 PKK fighters.

So far the KRG shows no sign of doing so. One reason is that, paradoxically, the Turkish government will not talk to the KRG although it is the only Iraqi institution that might help it � Ankara is fearful of the growing strength of the KRG as a quasi-independent state on its borders.

So far the PKK is benefiting substantially from the crisis which started this summer when it began to make more attacks within Turkey. Instead of being politically marginalised in its hidden valleys, it is suddenly at the centre of international attention. This will help it try to rebuild its battered political base within Turkey where it suffered defeat in the 1990s and where its leader Abdullah Ocalan has been imprisoned since 1999.

Asked if the Turkish forces could inflict damage on the PKK, one of its fighters, called Intikam, said: "Three out of five of our fighters are hiding in the mountains in Turkey and, if the Turkish army cannot find them there, it will hardly find them in Iraq."

Bozan Tekin and Mizgin Amed, a woman who is also a member of the leadership, hotly deny they are "terrorists" and ask plaintively why there is not more attention given to Kurds who have been killed by the Turkish army. They add that they have been observing a ceasefire since since 1 October 2006 and fight in retaliation for Turkish attacks.

"Since then the Turks have launched 485 attacks on us," says Bozan Tekin. "Even an animal � any living thing � will fight when it feels it is in a dangerous situation," said Mizgin Amed. Both the PKK leaders were chary of giving details of last Sunday's ambush in which at least 16 Turkish soldiers were killed and eight captured. This is because the ambush is a little difficult to square with their defensive posture. But Bozan Tekin said that in reality "35 Turkish soldiers were killed and only three PKK fighters were lightly wounded. We did not lose anyone dead." He claimed that an attack on a minibus, which Turkey blamed on the PKK, was in fact carried out by Turkish soldiers on a Kurdish wedding party.

Overall, although it does not say so openly, the PKK would welcome a Turkish military invasion of northern Iraq because it would embroil Turkey with the Iraqi Kurds and the Iraqi army. It would also pose almost no threat to the PKK.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article3093809.ece - http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article3093809.ece

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By http://profile.imageshack.us/user/antioxos - antioxos at 2007-08-20

Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2007 at 14:55

Article from Mehmet Ali Birand in Turkish daily news

To write heroic and patriotic articles on how right we are would be the easiest thing to do these days. It is true that we are right and determined. Nevertheless, I wish to choose the hard way and give you some facts

Mehmet Ali Birand

It is as easy as it is hard to write an article these days. The easy way is to favour heroism and compose tales of bravery and patriotism. The high-strung condition of our public leaves no room for criticism and its rational outrage is gradually turning into a giant manifestation. What's hard is to do one's duty to the public of being realistic. I prefer to take the hard way. I have no doubt that I am right. Ankara is doing what is necessary. We cannot ignore the outlawed Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) terror. We have to react to it. However, there are also some practical facts. Is reaction what really counts or is it to http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=86375# - This would be one way of trying to impress the other side. That would be all, however. It wouldn't get us any further. The PKK may take cover for a certain period to return in the spring. That is certain. As for the second part of the question�Is our main objective to silence the PKK? The answer to this question must be YES. Nobody would prepare to mount a huge military operation for show. If the aim is to reduce the PKK terror to an acceptable or tolerable level, if not to silence it completely, then we have to be realistic. What I mean by being realistic is to enlist America's concrete support. We cannot organise an effective fight against the PKK by beating http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=86375# - - light from Washington. It might be possible to engage in one http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=86375# - - attack or an individual bombing, but a long-term military venture would be impossible to maintain. Washington could use its military, financial and political mechanisms to do us great harm, especially if it decides to openly support the PKK. Our country would then suffer dire consequences. On the other hand, it is possible to increase our cooperation with Washington and to get it on our side in an effective fight against the PKK. Don't misunderstand me. I'm not talking about doing everything that America tells us to do. I'm talking about convincing the U.S. I'm talking about taking steps to show our determination, like we are doing at the moment.This is like walking on a tight rope. It is not easy, but it can be done if there's a will. That is what realism means.

PKK's roots are inside and not outside�

All eyes were turned to the other countries during the incursion motion's approval process. All related speeches, news broadcasts and commentaries created the public impression that �the PKK has nothing to do with Turkey and that all its sources are completely outside.� I followed the debates in Parliament with amazement. Nobody even mentioned the conditions in Turkey and its unfortunate past policies. Everybody was indignant, especially the prime minister and even Government http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=86375# - However, nobody mentioned that the same America had caught and delivered �calan to Turkey in 1999, and that we've made no effort to settle this issue since then.) Europe also got its fair share of criticism. Concrete examples were given of the aid supplied to the PKK by some European countries. Attention was drawn to the countries that had given the PKK permission to establish local offices, agencies and broadcast stations and to others that had qualified the terrorists as � http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=86375# - - fighters .� Of course, the major part of this outburst was directed at the north Iraqi leaders and administration. There was a lot of truth in all these criticisms. The speakers accused our allies for a reason. However, and I want to take a moment to insert this word in capital letters: HOWEVER, all the speeches were so biased that they gave the impression that the PKK had been set up outside Turkey altogether. This is the greatest trap that our nation can fall into, as well as being the most misleading impression. We could do ourselves a lot of harm if we lead our society to believe this.Yes, the PKK is fed from the outside and it does use some countries to benefit from their moral and financial support. If these countries sometimes do it out of their own understanding of democracy, at other times, they are motivated by the wish to weaken or to corner Turkey. Yes, these countries have some responsibility in the PKK terror. HOWEVER, no, the PKK is not a �foreign production.� The PKK originates from our http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=86375# -
By http://profile.imageshack.us/user/antioxos - antioxos at 2007-08-20

Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2007 at 15:31

Pretty good view from the inside. Turkey will only benefit in its current fight against terror with American partnership. So far this is looking to be the case with covert nods of agreement between the two governments.

The second part of the above article is also an eye opener. The PKK is a terror group on one hand yet a vehichle to promote Kurd aspirations on the other. They come not only from idealists bent on territorial seperation but by mentalities which both Turks and Kurds clash over. Long and short term goals need to be scrutinized by both the Turkish Republic and Kurdish people from Turkey and Iraq. The majority of both would like to see terror subside and better living standards for all regions to continue.

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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2007 at 20:09

Mehmet Ali Birand better do a little more research, Pkk is kept alive through its support from outside Turkey, or are the financers, fighters and propoganda agencies operating outside the country just a conspiracy...

All of Turkey is protesting against Terrorism.

Elazig, South eatern Turkey, 100,000 people join the demonstration

Erzerum, Eastern Turkey, tens of thousands

Gaziantep, South eastern Turkey

Istanbul

Kars, Eastern Turkey

Mardin, South eastern Turkey

Mersin, Mediterrannean coast

Sirnak, Iraqi border town, tens of thousands of demonstrators

Also protests in TRNC, Azerbaycan, Belgium, Holland.

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�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 26-Oct-2007 at 01:24

Yeap, i saw 5 protest meeting in this week. All were in same neighbourhood (Maltepe/İstanbul).

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Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 26-Oct-2007 at 14:07

Turks Set Cars Alight in Brussels

From the desk of http://www.brusselsjournal.com/paulbelien - Paul Belien on Wed, 2007-10-24 23:21

Tonight (Wednesday evening) heavy rioting erupted in Turkish quarters of Brussels, the capital of Belgium. Buses and trams were attacked. Several cars were torched and shops destroyed. Police forces were unable to restore law and order in the boroughs of Sint-Joost-ten-Node and Schaarbeek where since last Sunday the animosity among Turks is running high. Turkish flags are omnipresent. In some streets the Turkish crescent and star adorns almost every house.

The Turks� anger was provoked by rising tension with Kurds along the Iraqi-Turkish border and by the debate in the American Congress about the Turkish genocide of the Armenians in 1915. On Sunday night Turkish youths in Sint-Joost destroyed the pub of http://www.standaard.be/Artikel/Detail.aspx?artikelId=DM1J1GQO - Peter Petrossian , an ethnic Armenian who had to http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2584 - flee for his life . Apparently, some Turks think that by attacking the Armenians in Brussels they can convince the world that the Turks never committed a genocide of the Armenians.

Tonight the youths attacked Kurdish shops. They also set fire to several cars.

Belgium�s Muslim population consists mainly of Moroccans and Turks. In the past rioting Muslim youths were mostly Moroccans. The Turkish community is controlled by the Turkish embassy. The latter used to restrain the Turkish population so as not to upset the Belgian authorities and thwart Turkey�s chances of EU admission. This policy seems to have changed recently. In Antwerp, too, Turkish youths demonstrated tonight.

The events in Brussels indicate that in admitting large numbers of immigrants Belgium has also imported the ethnic quarrels of the Middle East.

Meanwhile in Amsterdam, the capital of the Netherlands, Moroccan youths have http://kleinverzet.blogspot.com/2007/10/yet-more-car-b-ques-in-amsterdam.html - been burning cars for more than a week now. Today a 15-year old Amsterdam schoolboy was stabbed by youths. The boy survived the attack but is seriously wounded. On 11 October a 16-year old Amsterdam boy was stabbed to death in school. On 4 September a similar incident occurred in the Belgian city of Ghent where a 14-year old Belgian boy fought for his life after being stabbed in the throat by two immigrant youths from his school.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2588 - http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2588

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By http://profile.imageshack.us/user/antioxos - antioxos at 2007-08-20

Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 26-Oct-2007 at 16:25

That is absolutely horrible. Is this due to religion, nationalism, or a combination of the two? How is the host country suppose to deal with people like these?

Posted By: Justinian
Date Posted: 26-Oct-2007 at 18:51

I second Ponce on this; his reaction and questions, utterly repulsive. God what the heck is happening to the netherlands. First Van Gogh now that... Europe may be more progressive than the US but it sure has a lot more problems with regards to immigration and assimilation. (did I actually just say that?)

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"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann

Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 26-Oct-2007 at 19:36

Originally posted by Antioxos

Turks Set Cars Alight in Brussels

From the desk of http://www.brusselsjournal.com/paulbelien - - Peter Petrossian , an ethnic Armenian who had to http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2584 -